American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Raymond Arsenault, 2 of 5

[interviewer]: And how they how they escaped from the hospital [Arsenault]: OK. Well some of the riders were suffering from smoke inhalation. They were in Anniston hospital. And the same mob or much of the same mob that had, uh, been there ya know, the burning the bus, gathered around the hospital. And they went to the superintendent and they said ya know you get those freedom riders out of there within an hour or we're gonna burn this hospital the ground. And I think he knew they meant business. And so the superintendent went went to, uh, went to the riders and said look, you gotta get outta here. I don't know h- h- how you do it but you gotta be gone. So they started frantically calling everybody they knew. They called Washington, they called Fred Shuttlesworth in Birmingham. And of course Fred Shuttlesworth, Fred Shuttlesworth was a person came who through for them and he dispatched several cars of deacons. And of course before he set them off to Anniston, he told 'em you know we're nonviolent, so you can't take any weapons and they said of course yes Reverend we understand but of course they already had their the shotguns in the cars and as soon as they got outside of the

parsonage in Birmingham, they took 'em out and made sure they were loaded. I don't think they are expected to use them, but they knew t- they might have to force their way through that klan mob and they at least had to show those those weapons, which they did. And the klan mob parted, uh, just long enough for the riders to hustle out the door and an- and into the car and couple the riders told me they they were down f- ya know face face first on the back seat and they just went hauling out into the Alabama countryside and, uh, they didn't know course you know where they were going and really how they were how they were gonna get to Birmingham and whether the klan mob was gonna pursue them. They pretty much expected them to but but but they made it, somehow. [interviewer]: At this point, and and again you know you can be as animated as you want I think that you're smiling and the the look in your eye when you tell a story is great. Um, a- a- at this point, talk about the fact that that you know, um, the rides kinda started out with with very little

press. You know w- which we already know you know so so there's ya know there's there's a couple of of representatives of the black press. But at this point, with that bus burning and the ride in Birmingham, this is now big news. [Arsenault]: [Arsenault] Those pictures of the burning bus were about as dramatic as anything I think anyone had ever seen coming out of the civil rights struggle. Uh, shocking to just about anyone I think who saw them and the the coverage of what happened I mean the notion that just for the attempt to sit on the front of a bus that you could risk your life. That people could try to burn you to death ya know in a near a place like Anniston, Alabama was was incredible. And the media coverage was electric uh, it made the freedom rides front page news. Um, which it remained for ya know for many days and many weeks and that I don't think anything was as powerful as those images coming out of Anniston. I mean obviously what happened in Mont- Montgomery and Birmingham, added to the

added to the the media media frenzy but I think Anniston's what really kicks it off. [Interviewer]: Just wanna, uh, go back and and ask you to to do that, uh, kind of a follow up about that again - [Arsenault]: OK. [Interviewer]: again and and got the better but just talk about the fact, and I don't wanna go forward- [Arsenault]: Right OK, I realize- [interviewer]: stay in the past and and talk about how how how this becomes ya know huge national news [couh] ya know and also international news. This- [Arsenault] Do you do you want me to talk about the fact that Kennedy's about to go to [interviewer]: Yeah sure, sure. Yep, yep, yep. [Arsenault]: Vienna and all that? [interviewer]: OK so so talk about the bus burning becoming this iconic image and the fact that this is now national international news [Arsenault]: Well the burning bus in Anniston becomes an iconic image almost overnight. Uh, the the media, newspapers in the United States, all the world really seize on this. Not all of them run the photograph but just the dramatic retelling of what happened is shocking. I mean John Kennedy was about to go to Vienna for his first summit meeting with Nikita Khrushchev. Uh, the eyes of the world were already on this cold war

struggle between American democracy and the Soviet Union and and this made the United States look pretty foolish. Uh, uh, pretty inconsistent even hypocritical in its profession and it was the seat of democracy and it was gonna spread that to the rest of the world and here you had ya know black and white riders and allison- in uh- and here you had black and white riders in Anniston, Alabama fighting for their lives on a burning bus. It was an incredible image and I think, uh, for many people it was a searing searing thing that that never left their minds. [Interviewer] One of the things that that you alluded to in the take be- fore, I just want a little bit more on cause it's it's always kinda what I what I talk to people about the film and I think about the film, i- i- it's really an important point that that that you know that all of this was about trying to sit next to each other on a bus. Ya know and it's and it's this small thing so again I just just to to to to to put that in in answer that that ya know that this what was also the symbol that that this is how bad things were or ya know just relate it

the burning bus to [Arsenault clears throat] of ya know you weren't go ahead. [Arsenault]: Well there was a dominant image promoted by the white south that that that blacks were content with Jim Crow. That that was only, uh, ya know radicals who had any had any uh, real opposition to it, uh, and, oh, I guess that's not you don't want to go there I'm sorry. Um, that takes me somewhere else. Um, tell me again what you want here, I'm sorry. [Interviewer] Ju- ju- ju- just th- th- the idea that that you know that that one of the things the burning bus did was just say that that you couldn't even sit next ya know that that this is how- can we cut for a second? Cause one of the things that that that were that were is there a question there somewhere? [Arsenault]: No no, I think so I think I've got it. Well the bur- the burning of the bus in Anniston

demonstrated I think as as clearly as as anything that Jim Crow racial segregation was a cradle to grave institution. It was all encompassing this so called southern way of life, would not allow for any breaks. Um, it was a a system that was only as strong the white southerners thought as its weakest link. So you couldn't allow people even to sit together on the front of a bus, something that really shouldn't have threatened anyone but it did. It threatened their sense of the of the, uh, wholeness, the sanctity of at- of an a- what they saw as an age old tradition, it wasn't as old as they thought it was. Uh, but they couldn't imagine the south without it and so it it it it drew them into seemingly ridiculous situations where they were willing to to threaten people's lives just for a minor breach of racial etiquette. Is that OK? [Interviewer] Yeah, that was good, that was good. Um, talk about the the the the the idea that that that

one of the things that that that this does is is it opens up uh, or or it's you know it's one it starts to open up the burning bus a- a- and these images start to open up to to the general public and and in the United States and also the world. Um, ya know th- this system that had people didn't think about or talk about or ignored or these white people ignored. [Arsenault]: Yeah. Well this level of civil disorder I think, uh, uncovers the the brute reality of the maintenance of Jim Crow in the south. That it was maintained by force and violence, if necessary. And that some white southerners at least were willing to stop almost at nothing to maintain this system. That it was part of their identity, ya know it's who they were and they weren't gonna give it up voluntarily. And if they had to kill people to preserve it, then so be it. [Interviewer] Uhhh, let's cut for a second. Tell us what happened. So so as their ya know 10 miles down the road, uh, from from Anniston, from Birmingham, um, talk about

the deals that had been struck between, uh, law law enforcement and the klan. [Arsenault]: OK. Well as that trailways bus made its way from Anniston to Birmingham, I don't think any of the riders on it knew what was about to happen. The klansmen on the bus knew cause this had been carefully worked out. Uh, members of the local klan had colluded with the commissioner of public safety. [Interviewer] Oh, let's start over I'm sorry, let's cut. Second bus the trailways bus, again look look at me and and as much energy as we can. [Arsenault]: All right, OK. [interviewer]: Again, we're only about one fifth of the way- [Arsenault] That's all right, that's OK. [Interviewer] Lotta questions, OK, so again, um, as as the second bus. [Arsenault]: OK. As a second bus, the trailways bus, was about to pull into the terminal in Birmingham, I don't think any of the freedom riders on the bus knew what was about to happen. I mean they knew there was danger, uh, they'd already been roughed up on the bus by the klansmen on the bus but I don't think anyone had any

idea that there was gonna be a full scale riot that the commissioner of public safety Bull Connor was something of a legendary figure who had been a a tough customer for blacks for many decades but I don't think the freedom riders knew what they were dealing with and he had worked out this deal. [Interviewer] Cut, cut for a second. S- sorry, a- a- as the second bus. [Arsenault]: OK. Uh, well as the second bus, the trailways bus, approached Birmingham from Anniston, I don't think any of the freedom riders on that bus knew what was about to happen. They had no idea that Bull Connor, the infamous commissioner of public safety of Birmingham, had worked out a deal with the klan. That the police department would not be there, they'd be completely absent for 15 maybe 20 minutes. The idea was he didn't want I don't think he wanted them to be killed but he wanted them to beat the freedom riders maybe with an inch of their life so that people like this would never come Alabama again. That they would learn a lesson and the word would get out that no freedom riders could come into Alabama and live to tell about it.

[interviewer]: Gimme a short version of who is who is Bull Connor. [Arsenault]: Uh, Bull Connor was a larger than life character who had been, uh, uh, kinda in law enforcement in Birmingham in local politics going back to the 1930s. He was a local institution, uh, he wasn't, uh, you know everybody's most favorite, uh, [Arsenault mumbling] Should I try that again? [Interviewer] Sure. [Arsenault]: Bull Connor was a larger than life character in Birmingham. He had been a major figure in local law enforcement and politics going back to the 1930s. Um, and, uh, he was very controversial, uh, many of the respectable businessmen in Birmingham didn't like him because his methods were rough. Um, he gave the city a bad image but from a white supremacist point of view, he got things done. Uh, he kept control of the black community, uh, and they knew that when a Bull Connor was was running things that that so-called southern way of life, uh, was still

intact. [interviewer]: Um, talk about Bull Connor as a segregationist that's what ?inaudible? ya know Bull Connor was a, he was a maniac. [Arsenault]: Yeah, OK, OK. Yeah, uh, Bull Connor was not a demagogue. Uh, I think he was a real bigot. Uh, he believed in racial segregation. There was no hypocrisy as far as he was concerned, uh, he thought that blacks and whites should remain separate, that the whole social order that civilization depended on it. And he was a willing and able he would tell his you know his followers, uh, to do anything, really. To make sure that the southern way of life, of segregation and Jim Crow remained intact, uh, because he couldn't imagine a world without it. [Interviewer] Great. Umm, talk about the, um, the just I don't know how how would you kinda not a too long version, but ya know talk I wanna talk about the FBI. You know, the FBI, you know, um, the FBI role. So now- [Arsenault]: Gary Thomas Rowe, you want me to mention him? [interviewer]: Yeah.

Yeah, well was FBI, talk about the FBI. [Arsenault]: Well during these years, the FBI saw its role as an information gatherer. Uh, J. Edgar Hoover had put out the word there was to be no interference, no protection, um, they had a number of, uh, informers, inside plants in the FBI. One of them was Gary Thomas Rowe, who was a rough cut character, uh, who wo- had worked his way into the heart of the ku klux klan in in Birmingham. And he was part of the planning committee that planned the reception for the for the freedom rides. He was there leading the charge and he reported everything to to the bureau. So J. Edgar Hoover and the other special agents knew pretty much exactly what was gonna happen. Uh, but they kept it to themselves they did not ya know push that information on to the rest of the justice department. As far as we can tell and certainly they didn't they didn't inform the civil rights community and the freedom riders. [Interviewer] So you will you said the FBI knew what was gonna happen. The FBI knew that that that that

Bull Connor had given them, um, 15, 20 minutes to do what they w- what they wanted. Um, but the FBI didn't do anything about it, didn't think it was their responsibility to do anything about it. In fact, that they've given them 15, 20 minutes to be able to ?riot? in Birmingham. [Arsenault]: Some of the individual special agents with the FBI were troubled by this I'm sure. But J. Edgar Hoover, who was the supreme leader of the bureau, put the word out that their their their their job was to take notes. Their job was to stay informed. Uh, their job was not to interfere and not to warn anyone. So they essentially stood by and let it happen and more than that, of course Gary Thomas Rowe, uh, to uh, to, um, establish his credibility was actively involved in the planning of the welcome for the freedom riders. [Interviewer] OK, let's cut. Start from- [Arsenault]: So where where I started was about

the FBI h- the FBI saw i- I was talking about the agents. [Interviewer] Just yeah ?inaudible? we can insert the [Arsenault]: OK, um, let's see. Uh, well the F- FBI s- saw its role, um, as information gatherers and that's what J. Edgar Hoover ordered. Uh, I think some of the special agents were uncomfortable with this but they were informers, uh, they were plants, like Gary Thomas Rowe. Uh, and more than just taking information though, uh, they were awful often involved in the actual planning of some of these klan activities. And the case of Rowe, um, he he prepared the welcome help prepare the welcome for the freedom rides. He took part in the beatings, uh, to establish his credibility. Of course there were later law lawsuit against him because of this. [Interviewer] OK, we got that. ?Can we? stop. [Arsenault] Did I say it- he blamed them. [Interviewer] So so so, um, so what was governor Patterson's attitude? What attitude a- a- after the, uh, bus burning and and the riots?

[Arsenault]: Governor Patterson blamed the freedom riders. To him, they were outside agitators plain and simple. It wasn't the fault of the people in Alabama. It was the fault of these outside agitators who'd come in and stirred up trouble. They were up to no good, he blamed them, he blamed the Kennedy administration for encouraging them, um, and he was not going to take any responsibility for what had happened. [Interviewer]: It seems that by his attitudes, uh, by his attitude, governor Patterson i- i- is i- is being pretty inflammatory. Ya know He's not saying "cool down," he's not saying "we gotta have peace," he's inflaming things. [Arsenault]: I think John Patterson wanted to play both sides. He wanted to keep his ties to the Kennedy administration. He didn't want to appear to be a rabble rousing demagogue but he had to assume some of that role in Alabama, to stay ahead of the other segregationists. He didn't want to be out- segged. That had happened in other politicians' careers earlier and he didn't

he didn't wanna lose his political control. So he was walking a tightrope. [interviewer]: T- tell me that again. But I I think a lot of people aren't gonna understand what you mean by out-segged. So ya know, Governor Patterson is walking this tightrope, he sees he's I mean ya know he he's one he he won the election over over Wallace on this ya know extreme segregation. I mean so that's his constituency, I think, ya know that, talk about that. [Arsenault]: John Patterson was elected as a segregationist, as an extreme segregationist. He beat George Wallace in 1958 and he didn't wanna lose that position. He also wanted to keep his ties to the Kennedy administration. so he didn't want to appear to be an extremist but within Alabama circles, he didn't wanted h- there to be any doubt that he was committed to Jim Crow, he was committed to segregation, he would defend the Alabama way of life, and he was not going to put up with any Freedom Riders coming in and agitating in his state. [interviewer]: I wanna stay on Patterson

while we're here. Um, talk about Patterson after the after the church seize, we're gonna go back there later but since we're on Patterson. Ya know he's there still he's unrepenting. He says something like the best thing King and the others can do is leave the state, ya know, um, so talk about again so now we're a w- a week down the line but talk about Patterson after this church seize. [Arsenault]: Patterson maintained that the Kennedy administration had encouraged the freedom riders. He blames them, along with the freedom riders. He felt like he'd been put in an impossible situation and Kennedy should have known this, that he had to uphold segregation and yet the Kennedy's were telling you also gotta uphold order, you gotta protect the freedom riders. And that's what he wasn't willing to do until he was absolutely forced to do so. Uh, I mean it took a major riot to get him to that point. [Pause] OK, or no? [Interviewer] Yeah, I'm not sure the riot actually- [Arsenault]: Well, um, [interviewer]: OK, hold on.

[Arsenault]: I mean I guess th- civil disorder, violence, uh, how do you want me to phrase? [interviewer]: Recorded and published. [Arsenault]: Yeah. [interviewer]: OK. Uh, so so and and then you can set it up f- set it up for us and how does that happen? [Arsenault]: Well Robert Kennedy realizes that he's gotta get the freedom riders out of Alabama, one way or another. And for him, it's simple to get the greyhound bus company to take them out. Uh, turned out to be much more difficult than ever he ever could've imagined. So he has these ongoing negotiations with greyhound. I don't think he ever thought that they would appear in the press, that there would be court testimony where his words would come back to haunt him. So I'm not sure he was choosing his words all that carefully, but he wanted to impress upon them how much the federal government wanted this crisis to come to an end. They couldn't they couldn't tolerate this continuing ya know civil disorder, these horrible headlines who were embarrassing the United States across the world. Um, so he was, uh, shouting into the phone telling them you gotta get this done. And of course some of those words later came back to haunt him that it appeared considering the words that he used, that that that that the Kennedy

administration had been encouraging the freedom rides, that it would actually maybe even planned the freedom rides. Uh, nothing could be further from the truth. Um, but many white southerners believed that, once they read Kennedy's words. [Interviewer] Let's cut for sec. So just kinda set it up for us I mean ya know, we actually talked to Patterson, he's actually really kinda interesting on that. [Arsenault] Yeah. [interviewer]: Says the worst decision he ever made in his life, not to take the call. [Arsenault]: Wow. That's amazing. He he didn't say that for a long time. [interviewer]: Yeah, he said it was really stupid not to take the call- [Arsenault]: Wow. [interviewer]: Like when the President calls, you take the call. [Arsenault]: Yeah, yeah. [interviewer]: But we we don't know that but so for here but but, um, uh, so so ?inaudible? the circumstances that that ya know they're trying to do anything to get these this is the second wave right, the ?18th? I do believe that they're trying to get anything to get these rides out of Birmingham and he makes this call, OK. [Arsenault]: Yeah, well the Kennedy brothers were trying to assert presidential authority, trying to get the riders out of the state and I think they expected some level of cooperation from from John Patterson. I mean he had been a political ally and they certainly expected him to take their phone calls and I think they were

genuinely shocked when he dodged them, uh, when he claimed that when his aides claim that he was gone fishing, that he couldn't take the call. Um, they expected to be able to negotiate with them and it was a real affront and I think it made them mad. I think it colors the whole situation, uh, when when Patterson app- appears to be, uh, uh, simply avoiding them. [interviewer]: OK let's cut. I I wanna try to- [Arsenault]: Frame that, OK. [interviewer]: But again, start out the framing with that that these riders are now that that ya know it's like a a second group of riders who were stuck in in- [Arsenault]: The Nashville riders, yeah. [interviewer]: Yeah, they're they're stuck in Alabama. We've gotten the story up to the point of getting stuck, um. OK, we're rolling? [Off Camera] Mhm. [Interviewer] OK. [Arsenault sighs] The Nashville riders are essentially trapped in Birmingham. Uh, Bobby Kennedy's gotta get them out. He had tried to shield his brother, tried to keep the president out of the picture. Uh, he would take ya know the brunt of the criticism if it came to that but eventually decides that he's he's got a bring his brother in at least for a phone call with John Patterson. Uh, but Patterson dodges the call I mean I think they were

amazed, they were shocked that he was their former political ally, um, who wouldn't even talk to them on the phone. And I think then they began to get a little scared. That anything could happen in Birmingham. That in Bull Connor's city that that they had to get them outta there and they had to figure out some way if Patterson would cooperate, fine, if not they were gonna have to do something else. [Interviewer] Um, ?inaudible? gimme the second part of that again, I just I just want you to say ya know more of ya know that that that that ya know they actually get the President of the United States to call John Patterson, but Patterson says tells his secretary [Arsenault]: I don't wanna talk to 'em. [interviewer]: I I don't I don't wanna talk to 'em. Tell 'em I've gone fishing. I mean we need the whole story. [Arsenault]: OK, I gotcha. [Interviewer]: OK, all right, let's roll. [Arsenault] Bobby Kennedy, uh, finally realized that he had to, uh, uh, ya know bring his brother into the situation if he was gonna get those riders out of Birmingham. He had tried to shield him from the situation but he says let let's put you on the phone with John Patterson. Let's call Patterson

and and make him talk to us, uh, but Patterson told his secretary I don't wanna talk to 'em. Uh, tell 'em I've gone finishing. And I think the Kennedy brothers were shocked that that Patterson was was willing to to to, uh, avoid them in that way that he wouldn't even talk with them. [Interviewer] OK. Say one more time. OK, cause I just want you to give me just a little more ya know that that that this is the President of the United States. [Arsenault]: OK, OK, OK. [interviewer]: He's avoiding a call from the President. Ya know, OK. And he says, ?inaudible? lies, he's says I'm going I went fishing I'm out I can't be reached I've gone fishing. Ya know the President OK, so so. [Arsenault]: Yeah. [interviewer]: The riot the rioters are- [Arsenault]: In Birmingham, I'll say that again. [interviewer]: Trapped again in Birmingham, mhm. [Arsenault]: The Nashville riders are trapped in Birmingham. The situation is really dangerous. Uh, Bobby Kennedy convinces his brother, uh, that maybe you need to talk to Patterson yourself. Maybe we have to assert presidential authority, uh, to put the President on the line, so they call Patterson. Uh, they talk to his secretary, Patterson says, uh, tell 'em I've gone fishing. I'm not gonna talk to them. And I think the Kennedy brothers were shocked. Um,

that despite the assertion of presidential authority that that their former political ally wouldn't even talk to them on the phone. And I think that that really gave 'em sense of how dangerous things were Birmingham. Um, that anything could happen in Bull Connor's city. Uh, when the governor won't even talk to the President of the United States, won't even negotiate, uh, things were really getting desperate. [Interviewer] OK, let's cut. Uhh, are we get- about to, uh, I'm sorry, let's cut for a minute. They f- ya know they they finally get out they fly out. T- t- talk about the the feeling from the white house that and and justice department that, OK, this is over. [Arsenault]: Oh yeah, yeah. The freedom riders finally get out of Montgomery. Not the way they wanted to. They fl- [interviewer]: It's it's Birmingham. [Arsenault]: Oh right, right. Yeah, of course. Start again. The freedom riders finally get out of Birmingham, not the way they wanted to of course. Um, they saw flying to New Orleans as something of a defeat, um, but they saved their lives

at least and, uh, I shouldn't let me start again that's not I didn't wanna say that that's not that's not right at all. OK. [clears throat] Freedom riders finally got out of Birmingham. They flew to New Orleans, they didn't go by bus. So something it was something of a defeat. Uh, John Seigenthaler's with them consoling them, telling them they have a lot to be proud. Of course he's relieved that they're out of there, that their alive. He gets finally to his motel room in New Orleans and he calls back late at night to the justice department and he says the freedom ride is over. Reaction of course is thank god, uh, now we get back to business as usual. Seigenthaler goes to sleep. 2 hours later he gets a callback from the justice department. Who in the hell is Diane Nash? Who is this young woman in Nashville who is talking about starting a new freedom ride? [interviewer]: Let's let's let's cut- [Arsenault]: You don't want that? [interviewer]: Yeah let's cut cause I-

[Arsenault]: The freedom riders finally get out of Birmingham. They fly to New Orleans. John Seigenthaler's with them, he's consoling them, ya know he's telling them ya know don't feel too bad. Uh, uh, you're alive, you accomplished a lot. He finally gets to his hotel room in New Orleans, um, he calls back to Washington to the justice department, he tells them the freedom ride is over. Everyone's relieved, they think they can get back to business as usual, the President can go off to the summit meeting in Vienna, uh, not worrying about the headlines any- more. 2 hours later, John Seigenthaler wakes up, phones ringing. Another call, now it's a call back from the justice department and and someone says, who in the hell is Diane Nash? Now do you want me to explain who she is? [Interviewer]: No, I want you to do that again. OK, but I want you just to say, who the hell is Diane Nash? End of act 1. That's it. Cause you just say who the hell is Diane Nash and that's-

[Arsenault]: I should say it better than I just said it. Yeah, yeah. [interviewer]: Gimme some emotion. We don't need the whole f- I think ?everyone? just wanna start here with John Seigenthaler gets back to ya know ya know J- John Seigenthaler calls the justice department [Arsenault]: OK. [interviewer]: And says so because what happens is ya know Seigenthaler and the so so- [Arsenault]: OK, I got it. I got it. [interviewer]: OK. OK, roll. [Arsenault]: John Seigenthaler finally gets to his hotel room in New Orleans, the freedom riders are there with him, they're safe. He calls back to the justice department in Washington to, uh, let them know that they're there, they're safe and sound. Now I'm I I'm adding too much between my words here. [Interviewer] You can just start with Seigenthaler calls back. [Arsenault]: Yep, yep. But it's not it's one thing it's not calls back it's calls yep, yep. John Seigenthaler finally gets to his hotel room in New Orleans, he calls to Washington t- t- to th- the justice department to let them know that the freedom riders are there, safe and sound. That the freedom ride is finally over. He goes to sleep, 2 hours

later, he gets a call back from the justice department. Who in th- who the hell is Diane Nash? Someone asked him. Now that doesn't right. [Interviewer mumbles] [Arsenault] Not someone.