Massachusetts Viewpoint; ARCHITECTURE TASTE and Public Planning

Good evening. Here with me at the Lincoln filing center on the Tufts campus are Charles Hilton Hearst design review officer for the Boston Redevelopment Authority and acting project designer for the government center. James Drummy of the Boston Herald and Karl Koch architect and head of the architectural firm Carl Coakley associates and I think it's all of us can gradually trial Phelps he's won two national awards this week. A highlight of the National Library Week was the presentation of a special award of merit to Carl Pope associates for their architectural achievement on the Wellesley town library. This award was meant only last night and it was made jointly by the National Book associate committee Inc and the American Library Association which sponsored National Library Week as well as the American Institute of Architects instantly 10 public libraries in the country were selected for size citation and one of these was they in Wellesley Massachusetts. And seven college libraries were selected one the Bennington College library. These two New England winners were both the work of the Karl Koch associates.

And now let's get to work on the question of architectural taste in public planning. And since the government center is moving along rapidly in Boston let's read some of their plans briefly to get US oriented to what we've been talk about. The government sent a project will be undertaken and carried out by the Boston Redevelopment Sardi. The principal activity will be clearance and redevelopment to remove a decadent and blighted area from the heart of Boston. The principal reuse of the government centered project the land will be for both public and private office space including accessory uses and public open space. Public improvements will include an improved street system off street parking and utilities water electricity gas and telephone and so on as well as mass transit facilities. As examples others take streets in the report of the Boston Redevelopment Authority states that a completely new major street system will be constructed in a logical and orderly manner. And that utilities will be placed underground and that there will

be open areas as at which will be landscaping and so on. Well I'd like to turn to Mr. help in her first and ask him if doing a project this large has its problems. Yes Mr. Holmes it has many complications and many problems. One of the most outstanding problems as we see it is the problem of correlating the efforts and activity of some eight major agencies all the way from the national government the state government down to city governments and departments within the city. Another area of almost tantamount importance is that of the correlation of all the existing utilities and the design of the new utilities to go beneath the ground. That's a really extreme and complicated problem we're faced with the fact of preparing and utilizing certain areas for new buildings and at the same time not destructing services to existing buildings.

And if one doesn't watch the charts in front of you why you find a series of telephone calls pouring in people wondering. Why they don't have any electricity any longer and their buildings and it. It really is a much more complicated process than if one ever worked out in a piece of virgin territory. Well like much longer. I think having a dog while I had sounds almost to you talk you know can you really do this and I don't think that people feel that you can. How do you get a public reaction. Well I think we can do it and we are doing it all one has to do is go down and stand in the area which was once Scully Square and see the fact that we've now cleared a good many acres and we see also that the MTA is in the process of constructing a new subway tunnel and I think that the public is beginning to realize that this is actually a project that's going to be accomplished and it is not just a piece of paper planning. Say you you've gone a long way in skali Square that's true but I've seen

some of the pictures of the design and I'm not really a designer but how are you going to make this old a new boss to reconcile with each other. Mr. Coke I'd like to hear some of your views on that how and how can we reconcile the ancient feeling of Boston the home state house and things like that which was modern design. Well I think those of us who haven't we're not born in Boston feel that there is less of a problem than those who may have the fourth and fifth generation I think that anybody from the FAI west of the Middle West knows that. Boston who has come to Boston knows that Boston is about the best place in the country to live that it should have facilities up to date with its past and that there are certainly there is certainly no insoluble problem about showing that Boston was the hub of the universe once and it is going to be again.

You know how can you take. You have the Bullfinch up on the top of the state house hell and you're going to put up a government center at the bottom that is going to be in what I call the. MARTIN designed how you're going to relate what's at the top of the hill to what's at the bottom of the hill and maintain the feeling of bust and how can you do this. Well I think one way is to just think a little bit about what Mr. BALL things would do if he were here now he would certainly not repeat the statehouse down at the bottom. He would look around see what has happened in the way of new materials new techniques how to deal with the tremendous complexities of Mr Helga has just described and I'm sure that's true Shakespeare probably would be writing like Tennessee Williams if he were around today. However my feeling is that the concern among people is to retain the outward manifestation of the old Boston in the new buildings now can this be done I

understand that there is presently a pendulum in architectural circles swinging towards a humanist rather than the intellectual approach through this can you do this. Well in terms of buildings the old State House gains tremendously in my opinion from the backdrop of buildings built much more recently and I think we were talking before we started Mr. Hougan harvest is his and all the architects concerned with this are very much. I have been very much in mind keeping the old buildings. As real jewels amongst the new utilitarian work that is going up. Well so that's what it will be utilitarian. There won't be any effort to relate it any more directly to all Boston. I'd like to interject a point here and that I think there is a very consistent effort being made by all the participating architects to make this type of relationship.

And one way they are doing it and I think achieving a tremendous amount of continuity is through the use of material that most of us are aware of the fact that New York City and its. The latest stages of development has sort of turned into a world of glass towers. There is not one building in the government center that is going to have a steel and glass facade that all the buildings that have been proposed so far are going to be clad in Masonry. And of course they will have glass which is a requirement so people can see out of the buildings. The city hall in particular which is the winner of a national competition the architects are specifying bricky and all the lower areas of the building as well as concrete in the upper one of one of the prizes among the rank and file of Boston people when I was first there they had there was a lot of antipathy to it. Well I'd like to ask you that line. Surely it is one of the first competitions in many years that has had as unanimous support and is going ahead to

completion I think there's been a great deal of I think it's beautiful myself but. But hasn't there been a considerable amount of. Public backing for it. Well I think at the at the Initially when it was unveiled there was a lot of talk about a Chinese pagoda and all that sort of thing. But I think it's a beautiful design. Now what I'd like to know also is this in your field. The three buildings that are going up are all the buildings but the three principal buildings in the government center you have the right to reject something that doesn't fit and match the Boston City Hall one which is going to be the central building. Well whether we have the right of rejection is a complicated question. We do review all the plans that are proposed. We have actually many conferences with the architects and the clients for these buildings and we discuss them in various stages of their completion. We attempt to point out the overall concept of the master plan to these people.

Well the concept is obviously one which combines problems of Transportation the redesign of the road system the problem of pedestrian circulation so that people can move from one building to another. There is the problem of creating urban spaces open urban spaces for people to utilise for their leisure. All these problems are the design of creating a significant space so that we can take one building and and really emphasise it and give it some architectural drama. These are all the things that comprise the government center plan one out that the city hall building is going to be the key building in that overall complex yesterday. Well it's been my feeling and I don't weild airport I think is a horrible example. Some of the best people in the nation designed there and they all try to outdo each other it seems there's a competitive thing. Collins Why is that now. Well that happened in this thing that the three designers that ultimately build those three buildings will each try to outdo the other at a competitive level

for professional reasons. The government centers as bad as I and while airport. It will pretty well spoil boss but I think that one of the main problems here which and the one thing I'm concerned about is that the two or three old buildings still left like the Sears building. I may have to go because they will not be economically. Viable in the new plan and I think that that will be a short term decision if it has to be made such that that will be a big mistake. Mr. HOLMES Can you identify that's a serious question. But yes this is a building which is presently on the corner of Cornhill and Cambridge Street. The building was constructed around eight hundred forty one and arrived and it is actually if you look at the plant it is Crescent in shape it's it's a brick building some six floors high. And at the moment contains several bookshops Which been in existence since

the building was first constructed. I didn't interrupt your question. Oh I think if we talk about the serious talk really the terrible thing that happened was having the old tavern go. Their own. Power. Great yeah. The design staff is particularly anxious to retain the series Crescent and we also had a tremendous amount of support from the design advisory committee which is an independent group headed up by five of the city's outstanding architects and we we feel very strongly that this building is going to contribute a great deal to the character of this new city hall plaza that most of the major plazas that are created across the United States today are completely new. And the fact that all the buildings that surround it are contemporary in nature and we think that we have a really unique chance here to express the architectural heritage of Boston by having one of the buildings that is actually founding the plaza representing another generation. In fact another century.

Oh and i months that I understand you have to decide what to do with the Sears press and you get two beds the best bed retaining the Sears press and we'll bring the city in less taxes than one which will remove the building and put up a new one. Well Carl the way we are going to go about attempting to retain this building is first to advertise publicly define any developers who are interested in actually rehabilitating the building and we have this period. Once we advertise of nine months to see whether anyone will come forward with the idea of rehabbing this building. If in that period we do not have any offers then we are obligated to demolish the building and go about advertising for someone to come in and erect a new building on the site so that the two items are really not concurrent. We give preference to anyone who is going to rehabilitate the building.

Is there any incentive for somebody to rehabilitate the building as compared to tearing it down and putting up a new one. The incentive comes in fact that we are essentially giving the building the way that we are selling the land essentially just for the the price of the bare ground. And so the structure is something that they would inherit with the with the land they would put it to and no use. Yes whatever whatever use they would have we would certainly assume that the way the building is laid out that the upper floors would be for some type of office space and we would hope that the lower floors would would have some commercial use and that we would return tain the bookstores and many of the other elements that have been there for many generations. It's well as zoning permits say double the amount of space in a new building that exists in the Sears building. No no the zoning which has been set up would require that any new building could be built only to the same height of the existing Crescent. What is the zoning regulations that are going on within this government center. And what

is the main accent in the government senators going to the city hall or what. Yes it is and I am Pei who is the the architect responsible for creating the government center planned very deliberately set out to create this urban space surrounded by a group of buildings which would act essentially as a very handsome foil for the new government center. I Mr PE deliberately attempted to create an even facade line on the buildings that surround the no city hall to actually contain and let these buildings act as a framework for the the object which sits in the center of the space which is the City Hall itself. You know what you mean when you say that these modern buildings are going to frame the whole buildings to use it. Oh Apollo I don't know what you were paying him welly the old state house is overpowered in a physical sense

but in a. You know visual sense I don't think it is tolerable. Let me ask both of you something in this area. There has been a lot of discussion and a lot of calls written about urban ugliness. Boston certainly has its share of it in most major areas have. And Michael My wonder is how do you control this in the future. I know what get out of control because I suppose it was a commercial matter and so the commercial people really didn't give a. Damn particularly about as long as they got a big building with lots of office space and rentals and so forth how What's a feasible plan for controlling this in the future. Now you both should have an answer to that. Well my answer perhaps reveals too little faith in architects but I think one of the best ways is not to let any a group like a tax do too much at one time. If Boston were

complete That's why I talk about saving the old buildings that lost more completely razed and we did it all in the next few years I think Boston would become a very dull place to live no matter who we got in the way of like it takes to do the job. You'd rather have a variety of architects in any urban center so that you get a variety an architect Well I think you should feel every time you're in Boston that Boston is 300 years old yet it wasn't all created and 40s or the 50s or the 60s. Well that doesn't really go to the nub of the question though Does a Col.. The thing is how do you prevent urban ugliness from increasing. Well I think that one way is to have as active and well intentioned urban renewal authority as we now have them. And is Boston's very fortunate in that there are many other cities in the area. No control no planning I suppose would be a matter of setting up a

proper planning commission staffed by people out of the design school someplace. I think this is only part of it. I think that public apathy certainly plays a large role. And going over to Carl's point about architects I think that some time. Particular designers employ new materials without any thought as to how they're going to stand up over a period of time and that you find out that a decade later a building that was once bright and shiny and attractive now is rusty and stain and paint flaking off of it and the particular owner doesn't feel as if he should make the necessary expenditures to bring the building back to proper shape. And therefore I think if architects were a little more concerned about the permanence of exterior materials that perhaps this is one way we could control some of the blight that takes place over a period of time. Well maybe public apathy but that really is a failure of education because the public doesn't know much about architecture and I think aside from public apathy

there's a considerable element of private greed funnier commercial interests they just don't care about what the city looks like. How do you get them to care. Well that's an interesting question brings up the economics of all of this. I'd like to go into the economics of your authority feel that you have the necessary financing to do this job in the way that you really feel it ought to be done. Yes I think we do. Yes I think that one could always use more money but I think that in this case that the quality of the building in a plan is in no way been sacrificed because of monetary limitations so the cost of Pyrmont him McDonough would agree that there's plenty of money. What are you carrying on. Well there's public planning in the in the area public buildings school buildings and everything else in general. Are we able to exercise the taste we want to exercise since we're talking about our architectural taste in public planning how do

you think we in the United States in general and in Boston in particular we we do have the necessary financing for public buildings to get the best taste. Oh I think that the tax situation. Needs overhauling just from the point of view of good architecture and well-designed cities the fact that there seems to be unlimited amount of money to bill insurance buildings. Prestige office buildings all kinds of private structures. Whose owners seem to have all kinds of money to build them whether let's say which otherwise would go to taxes is out of balance where the amount of. Worry We have about the cost of school the cost of housing for people who are being dislocated every penny has to be counted. When we're trying to build houses for people who have been living in either government center for instance. But

and there's there's some problem that there's some question as to whether they can afford any kind of economic housing that's fit to live and is built today. But there seems to be no question about I having money enough to go to the moon money and I have to build Seagram's buildings Park Avenue. I think we need I think maybe it's a tax situation. Well I was speaking of the. Transfer of housing I don't know what the phrases you use but the housing you're going to put up to the relocation housing is that the phrase Col I understand you're working on that in the Boston area. And the truth of the word is that you have done some remarkable things are you free to unveil this or is this still classified. It's not not at all classified but we're still struggling to get it to get it underway.

But I am very pleased to report that I think we have actually broken ground already and that the first of this a relocation housing is started in Roxbury. How do you define what a location housing really its housing is for people who have moved from my rehabilitated. And what kind of. How do you get low rents Anyway you get low rents is to construct buildings with initial low costs and this is an extremely difficult problem because just through the inflationary spiral it's taken place the Engineering News Record has quoted that the prices in the last 10 years have caused buildings to increase some 33 and a third percent. So if you were to replace a structure built 10 years ago what it costs you now the car call can solve this and the the Roxbury were restarting it

not in an economy we have great expectations that he is going to solve it mainly because he's applying a lifetime of experience and also I think an industrial approach to this which is in many ways similar to Detroit process manufacturing autumn heroes you know materials and the way of handling the materials as well as the quantities involved. These houses are the rattle you want it's how will they be there. The rental units so there is some talk of some of them being cooperative. Do you have any scale yet idea on what the models will run. Well we're talking as Carla what about $75 a month. For one thing I'm a single bedroom with heat and 85 for two bedrooms it was heat when you can't knock out these buildings are going to say let's put a kitchen on that space or something. Yes yes.

And about I know smaller ones up and they can help to get more than that for right now huge amounts and not fireproof. I think one of the great challenges today Karl has a favorite story of a sighting that you can purchase an automobile engine from Detroit for 30 cents a pound you know this is a pretty highly refined piece of steel and I carry that a little farther and say you can purchase an automobile for less than 20 dollars a square foot. If you figure it out and here you're getting something which not only gives you an enclosed space but it's furnished it has a rug on the floor communication system in it heater ventilating system. And it the building industry has a long way to go to match this type of technology and I think it's time that we take a more responsible approach and see if we can match Detroit in a sense sank pre-built parts of the houses that can get trucked up and slammed in a place not probably be a steel house. Now what's the fabric going to be called Do You Know That. In Roxbury it's going to be mainly reinforced precast

concrete. So let me ask one more question I have one also. All right I'd like I'd like to ask how in today's. World is the architect still an artist or is he a binder together of many fields to get anything done. I don't think that you can generalize about the professions some of some architects more businessman than anything else and that's a necessary qualification some are more artists and. And you know as much as I don't luxury I'm afraid and unnecessary actually to people. I'd like to ask this one question what's the quick quickly though what's the timetable on the completion of the whole governmental center project. Well I'd say that probably it's going to take about five years to five years to actual completion to FEMA for five years more yes that will have some

buildings that will be starting this summer and they will be completed within a period of two years we expect to have the city hall completed in a little over two years. And certainly this is true of federal government building but there are some other private office buildings that will be constructed in the area that will probably come along a little later. And actually we learned a good deal about architectural taste in public planning with one for instance taking it backwards that sometimes the private interests have a good deal more opportunity because of economic reasons to express their tastes and buildings such as the opera. Mention of the wing and the buildings. And we've also learned that the architects at least among us Mr. Logan Hearst and Carl Pope feel that they can reconcile the old in the new Boston by using in a sense the new buildings as rather a framework for the old buildings. And we've also learned that they're going to retain some of the old buildings by putting out

bits are incentives to have people come in and take the buildings off their hands and use them for commercial uses. And I want to thank all of you Mr. Boeken Hurst Procope and Jim for coming here tonight. Thank you General.