Public Television Hearings

Welcome to Massachusetts viewpoint. This week our subject is truth in lending. We have seated around the table for. As an example in 1965 state and local governments provided more than thirty three point five million in support of BTV. The federal government provided 5.1 million via grant in aid programs in that same year. Twenty eight states are now planning or implementing state wide communication systems. Nineteen of these states have approved plans which are being funded. And 13 of them include television transmission facilities. As an integrated part of overall statewide systems. This is an important point that I want to make. 13. More to come. An additional 17 states are now developing plans for such all purpose systems. And these statewide systems must be considered. In any plan to provide a National Educational Television Network. This is

a telecommunications systems planning job of significant magnitude and complexity. We cannot consider television in a watertight compartment of its own. If we do we will rapidly rapidly lose touch with reality and jeopardize the opportunity for economy. We know that a fundamental characteristic of the TV is its great diversity. It's chartered to meet differing local state and regional requirements. It's need for many methods of funding. Thus it seems both on why it is an economical. To proceed without adequate consultation and coordination with the states. If there are results from the unresolved diversity of thought a dichotomy of federal versus state planning we will be embarking on an exercise in futility. What I am saying is that there are hundreds of people throughout the country planning communication systems individually and separately without

getting together. To discuss how they're going to tie them together what the overall requirements will be. Shall we add to this confusion by planning a national system without taking into consideration the systems being planned by other states. If we do we will certainly risk and strive against and confusion and we think we should not do this. It would give us an example of the Tyee and one of the important states. I think you'd have to go to live today. Well. Nebraska is one of the. The early states planning and overall state system. South Carolina is a good example. Planning an integrated closed circuit TV network throughout the state. There are there are plans for a and enter

area. TV system. In the New England states. States are getting together here. For. Joint planning. But. How does it work general just give us an analyst Yeah I'd say that. We have been very active and endeavoring to get. The states into consultation with one another and with the federal government so that we can do some of the things that the Bureau of Public roads has done for example in laying out the interstate. System of highways so that we go from one state. To another state without having to make detours or. We go directly. From one state to another most expeditiously and without really knowing. Until we see the sign that we have passed from one state to another. The same kind of overall cooperative planning

needs to be accomplished in telecommunications amongst the states and television is an important part of the whole picture. This from what you described to Mr. JOHNSON Here we have operating now or very very soon will that you might. Have television Internet. Hierarchy that they never get there now. Any possibility of exchanging programming material. I want to read that day planning installing. So you see a significant part is the connection by Elia. Yes these are my microwave microwave system.

I just am endeavoring to bring out the point that we haven't gotten this whole picture together as yet. Working to do so. In the and in the discussion of educational television issues substantial controversy has arisen. As to alternate plans of interconnection and there have been a number of filings with which you're all familiar. On this subject. Many variations in the plans following the views of their many advocates. And we've tried to boil these down into two choices. First day specialized system in which satellite communications would be treated as an island of technology. And an island of service devoted solely to the distribution of television within the United States and solely by means of satellites. Or very largely by means of settlements. Second a proposal for multi-purpose service. In which television distribution would be handled by a combination of common carrier

terrestrial microwave systems and science and satellite distribution mains. Which permits the specific choice in any given instance to be made. On the basis of which media provided the most economical efficient and responsive answer to the requirements. When we seek to analyze the many elements of comparison between these two concepts. We immediately encounter an extremely complex problem involving many assumptions and estimates. He's unclothed capital costs. Cost of operation. Possible interference between terrestrial and satellite systems. Most effective use of the frequency spectrum. Most effective use. Of space technology and of orbital space or satellite placement. Overall flexibility and adaptability for growth. Technical estimates and predictions. International interactions and implications. To name but a few.

I think that indicates that pretty well. Complexity. Complexes The problem is however we must make a beginning. Immediate needs must be served and a start must be made to define future requirements. Our immediate efforts must provide for the following. The TV stations now on the air and new stations as they are established must be interconnected. Without limiting possible future applications of satellites. Coordinated planning of state interconnection systems with multimedia capability must be encouraging. Experience in the utilization of such systems must be acquired. Concurrent with the above we must pioneer actively in the development of heretofore unexplored educational benefits and values which can be derived from any TV. If we consider various courses of action to meet these immediate needs. While the perspective of long range requirements are still being formulated we can

establish a reasoning process along the following line. One way of approaching a specialized system plan is to make broad assumptions and we think will meet as yet I'm formulated requirements. And trust that the system which we develop will meet the evolving requirements. One problem here is that to create a new and specialized system requires substantial capital investment. And the early determination of an organizational structure and system. The risks of this course of action appear to be substantial and the cost of modifying or contracting the system significantly. We can minimize the risk of a specialized system by going through an experimental phase. Which does not immediately plan the nature of the complete system and affords time for the requirements to develop. Another approach is based upon initial use of established common carrier microwave systems. Under this alternative. It appears reasonable that for the next several years.

We can obtain with maximum assurance the immediate service which the TV will require. This is possible because we already have an operation. A dense and extensive switched terrestrial microwave system. The major problem here is the Ford Foundation has so well stated. Is to provide a way in which the costs of such service can be greatly reduced below present tariff structures. The present Delavan acted makes it possible for this to be accomplished and for a study determination to be made. As to the extent of the reductions which are considered to be possible. It would seem highly appropriate for Congress to find that preferential rates for educational television are warranted by the importance. And future potentials of this national resource. Such reductions could also be established on an experimental basis for a trial period.

Of course these determinations are properly matters for consideration and decision by the FCC which has them under consideration now. As the TV system more was through its early growth very and. The only requirements for added additional capital for interconnecting will be minor incremental additions to an existing nationwide network. At the earliest possible time that satellite communications can be made available for experimentally use. Such service should be integrated into the existing service initially over the longest hauls to make the greatest savings. And so as to develop the experience we need in the integration into the existing network of satellite long lines capabilities for television and other services. This would establish an evolutionary procedure of maximum assurance and minimum risk. At the same time it should provide the earliest possible

exploration of the potentials of satellite communications for these purposes. This approach has the following additional advantages it provides flexibility to keep pace with changing requirements and new opportunities. Adaptability to meet specialized needs and promote the closer cooperation and interconnection of essential educational and cultural TV stations with those of instructional TV. As each service develops its requirements more fully. It. Provides for growth potential to accommodate a major increase in any connection requirements. Once we have learned to use the full potential of DTV. To us this seems to be the economical way. The way to create immediate savings. A way to get on with the job. We believe that Educational Television is an area of very great potential. Very much a dynamic area very much an herion which we are learning every day more about our requirements and more

about new uses it can be made in this field. This places a premium on the value of the evolutionary process which permits us to perform the organization of requirements. And do a workmanlike job of planning for maximum effectiveness and minimum cost. If as so many observers have said. Commercial television is trapped in a profit syndrome which inhibits greater experimentation. With programs which seek to satisfy many small but important minorities of the American public. Then surely public television must have as its prime objective not only to satisfy these audiences. But also to stimulate their growth in numbers. If these concepts are valid ones and there is much testimony to the fact that they are. Them one may question the degree of fundamental compatibility between commercial television and public television.

In an intimate sharing of interconnection facilities. Indeed the Carnegie Commission has raised this point and has observed that quote public television is justified in reconsidering the best uses of interconnection in terms of its own needs. Rather than imitating thoughtlessly in the familiar manner in which the commercial networks use it. Commercial Television has a common bond in common discipline of profit. There is nothing reprehensible or blameworthy in this and much that is highly praiseworthy. It is made entertainment available to more people in greater variety and a lower cost than the world has ever before experienced. It's growth its coverage its propensity for service its success. Has been literally phenomenal. It's a generation of buyer demand probably has contributed more to the stimulation of growth in our national economy than has any other single advertising media. Without the

generation of profits this progress simply would not have happened. Without the stimulation provided by commercial television we would not now have television sets in 93 percent of American homes. 75 million television sets 200 million radio receivers. If I may interrupt at this point in this is I believe timely. We're still prone to be critical. Right faults of other people and other agencies and sometimes they're reluctant. To talk a little bit about their virtues. This morning I was looking at the television witnessing the funeral of that an hour. And I noticed that all three networks were on. And they had a very important time of the day. And I consider that again. A model as exemplification of public service.

I think. It needs to be said that. While they do have their problems and while many times they are subject to criticism and I've been one of their greatest critics. I think at the same time they ought to have a pat on the back when they do a good job. And what they did with the other had an hour funeral and what they did at national conventions and what they did at the time the tragedy of. President Kennedy's death. I think these are all jewels in the crown the public service agreement you German I felt that I wanted to say this. If it were not for the. For the ground which. Commercial Television has broken in providing the. Extremely large number of television sets. Educational Television. Would

still be an un realizable dream. It would not have the means to get into the home. And I think these are positive values of massive importance. Need TVL never has quite different objectives. It will seek to increase the gross national product of personal values and human capabilities. And to reduce the tremendous national cost of personal inadequacy of deficient education. Of lack of knowledge in a world moving so fast and in such ferment. That only a great growing competence of an informed electorate can call for the demands of the democratic process. Certainly that competence is growing now but the complexity of world affairs is growing perhaps faster. The marches toward more knowledge bringing better physical and mental health less crime less poverty stemming from educational deficiencies. This march must be

stimulated to grow in all possible ways. Its objective is the enrichment of human personality in a positive and creative way. Obviously this can be done only by inspiring and motivating people toward the higher goals of self-improvement. To swim upstream not flow downstream to sink the higher values of growing knowledge. Along with the diversion entertainment which is now so plentiful not of fully available. And at least to achieve a better balance between the two. It is obvious that ATV offers our best chance to achieve this balance. That's inherently the prime task of the TV will be to exert great leadership. Whereas inherently commercial TV to be successful has had to develop the talents of followership. Of the ratings of the mass days of our public. For diversion. The TV must develop the talent for leadership for innovation and for incentive ovation.

Truly the possibilities and difficulties of this challenge are almost limitless. They are only taking the first few faltering steps up a steep and difficult path but one which can lead us to fundamental progress toward solving some of the most difficult problems of our people. And of our times. As we learn more about the potentials and popular acceptance of public television we can move ahead to reach a multiplicity of groups and interests whose identity cannot be immediately determined. To serve the public interest through making available the most imaginative examples of our cultures and I and our diverse interests. Such program content may well include continuing professional education in the fields of law medicine finance. Economics and any other that you may name. Direct informational service to the public in the area of physical and mental health. For example via channels which can provide professional counsel and advice as a supplement to

mental health institutes and professional care. And to help serve the increasing outpatient world of mentally troubled people. With the best professional techniques which we have learned to employ. A new attack on the problems of illiteracy and of inadequate learning. Faced by many citizens who have not shared in the opportunity of a formal education. No cultural experiences and drama music and the arts. Experience and greater participation in how our government operates at the local municipal state and national level. Through actual TV coverage of important hearings debates and other government proper processes. It is my judgment that in the present state of uncertain unspecified requirements and educational television. Of the great likelihood of further explosive development new applications new uses it would be imprudent and unwise to settle now or in the immediate future. Upon any specialized national interconnection system dedicated exclusively to TV

distribution. And Mr. Chairman at this point I hope the committee will pardon me for indicating. A special personal interest in seeing progress made in these two fields. Perhaps I have already shown that considerable personal interest is present. I've been pushing and promoting satellite communications for over 12 years. And supervised and was responsible for the first talking satellite project. Project scar on signal communication by orbiting satellite. And I'm still in those instant promotor and sync more utilization of satellite communication. Faster more rapid progress in R&D. And the greater potentials which this can bring and more rapid realisation of cost advantages. But as a believer in truth in labeling I cannot tell you that satellite communication is the complete panacea for all communication

problems. That it is a goal managed mine in the sky that can be mined without further large investments and without. And that is sure to hit paydirt in a short time. Or that is without that it is without risk. Substantial rests are involved. Nor can I tell you that it is the last and ultimate breakthrough in communication technology. And experience as well as current information tells me that these would be irresponsible statements. There are at least three no competitors. Visible on the scene. One in the short term. One in the midterm and one in the long term future in the domestic telecommunications picture. On the other hand we can see no such imminent or even long term threats to satellite communications in the international field. And I have been pushing and promoting instructional TV for over 16 years.

And supervised and contracted for the first color television system for instruction pathology and surgery at Walter Reed Medical Center. As a former schoolteacher. I've been interested ever since and believe that both ITV and the TV have such tremendous potentials that they can move us. Toward a new and better world. So I am also anxious therefore that the TV and I TV move forward as expeditiously as possible. But also as surely as possible. The prudent way to achieve maximum speed with a reasonable safety in my opinion is to subsist substantially reduce the cost. And increase the use of existing facilities for experimental trial measures now. Now I repeat that word now. Experimentally introduce the use of satellites at the soonest.

Firm up plans for all users in systems requirements quickly. Establish immediately adequate collaboration between local state and national agencies planning public television. ITV and the interconnections required for both. To watch but I had all of these actions the passing of the public television. Message of the public television act appears to be the primary and essential step. I must. I think state my disagreement with the proposals which have been made to decide in the short range future. On a specialized satellite distribution system or any other specialized interconnection system. For educational television by whatever means it might be provided. I believe that our domestic common carrier communication system can at the at the moment and for the.

Short range future meet all requirements for domestic communications including those of educational television. And the new applications on the horizon. Assuming that preferential rights are accorded. To nourish the growth in its infancy of this great national potential. I note that the Carnegie Commission studies did not make the consideration of Educational Television needs dependent upon the immediate development of massive communication satellite support. I believe that intertwined these two factors under the present conditions of uncertain requirements. Creates a cloudy picture which could lead to unwise decisions with adverse results both to the interests of educational television. And domestic communication satellites. In the period of study and research which the president has proposed this entire matter will become much more clear. And we should be able to arrive at a mentor judgement of how satellite communications can contribute in a maximum way. To this and to other domestic communications

needs. In my opinion we would be quite remiss to fail to recognize and to commend the Ford Foundation on the great significance of their national service. In focusing the spotlight of public opinion in a forthright and dramatic way on this important area of need. We are sure to see much in the way of progress much in the way of improvement and I watch in the way of expanded horizons. As to the potential of educational television as a result of the Ford Foundation proposal. The entire country is indebted to Mr. Mead George Bundy and Mr. Fred Friendly for their vision and foresight in conceiving the new order of excellence. In the field of educational television. It certainly needs no. Mention from me. But I think I would like to mention the. Debt that is owed also nationally to the Carnegie Commission. To Dr. Killen and to the members of his. Commission

for the outstanding contribution. Which they made to advance the cause of educational television. Mr. Chairman during hearings before this committee in August 1966 you asked that I give the entire matter of educational television. Telecommunications policy and in particular domestic satellite communications serious consideration. This has been done. But our studies are by no means complete because of the rapidly changing circumstances. The situation remains so fluid that it is difficult to keep up with the changing patterns. And I might say that this is not our problem alone. It affects the timeliness of all proposals. And their interrelationship. In view of the president's message which I support fully in view of the fact that additional studies are going to be undertaken by the public television corporation. In view of the

fact that the Act contains a provision which will permit the reduction or elimination of transmission costs for each TV. We now have a new ballgame. Upon passage of those tanks we will have many new alternatives open to us that were not apparent at the time of your August 1966 hearings. And that were not apparent at the time many of the current proposals were made. Mr. Chairman I noted in your far series of hearings that the committee indicated its intent. To pursue the main line of inquiry of the purposes of the act. And. This morning you reiterated that statement. The statement. That I'm making has been patterned accordingly. I wish to thank those Commenee for affording me this opportunity to summarize these results of our studies. Which seem to us most germane to your main purpose. This terminates my statement and I'll now be glad to answer such questions as you and the

members of the committee may wish to ask. Well first of all General I I want to compliment you for what I consider to be a magnificent statement. And I join you in your accolade to Mr. moved. To Big George Bundy for a friendly Dr. Killian and the county commission. SENATOR PASTORE we experience any illumination at this moment is because of the spot they set some few months back. I think it has accelerated. It has emphasized has extension waited our whole effort in this regard and I think that they have done a yeoman performance and in alerting the public to the need for educational and instructional. I couldn't agree more. There's no question at all about it. And again I want to say I think one of the greatest things that ever happened in the communications field of from a. Public stand point of view and from a governmental standpoint of view is when the president

of the United States drafted you back in the service of the government and I congratulate you. Senator Magnussen. A little bit disappointed this morning that everybody's forgotten fried haddock forgotten once you're free to read. I had a she has to be and I'm a lawyer. My question I'm more Haitians commission but they didn't forget last week that I mentioned and I'm a little disappointed too that the work of this committee over the years in this field which has been sometimes without understanding in many places so it is good to have you here to suggest that maybe this work was not in vain. Now after listening to your very good statement on this matter I presume you're for this Bill Archer.

Very much so. OK. Thank you Mr. Chairman. It's lousy. I would like to ask questions. That it's been my purpose to sort of highlight in the record. The attributes that this bill requires to be possessed by the. Corporation that will be established. Senator Frank Lautenberg of Ohio that is the bill provides that it is in the public interest to encourage the growth and development of non commercial education. Educational radio and television broadcast. You understand that the bill really emphasizes the objective of non commercial. Radio and Television.

Broadcasting. Educational programs. I do indeed. To that expansion and development noncommercial. Educational radio and television broadcasting. And of diversity of its programming deep end on freedom. Imagination and initiative on both the local and national level. That second paragraph declaring the policy. Points out that there shall be freedom in choosing the program. That the program shall not be dictated by commercial objectives political or otherwise. Cycling. Three that the encouragement and support of noncommercial. Educational radio and television broadcasting. While

matters of importance for private and local development. Are also of appropriate any concern to the federal government. Now with respect to this third declaration a policy. Will you explain. If you will. Why the federal government ought to get into what when the state governments have entered into the field in such a large degree as indicated in your paper. I think that the federal government can perform a very useful service. And bringing the ideas. Of the educators in the various educational institutions and in the States. Together so that there will result. A composite a coordinated and quite a

collaborative view shall we say. Which can provide. The. The agreed upon mainstream is most important activities here. I think that what we're talking about here is very much the democratic process in which the local stations in the States. Have a very large say. In fact the final say from. The standpoint of programming. And what programs they put on. But a central organization over viewing the entire scene. Can serve as a catalyst. And can also make available. Programs for distribution on a national basis. Which the

states and the educational institutions and other users are free to accept. Or to reject as they see fit. I think also that. That one organization that can overview the entire rapidly moving scene. A very diverse scene which is. Is moving in many directions. Can. Determine. Where the vacuum areas are where are the opportunities for exploring new possibilities. That the states or the universities in their preoccupation with their. Local problems. Which seem to them to be the most urgent have overlooked and are not developed. Enough. I anticipate I can go on your and. Not the Congress here by pines in the players. Fourth

paragraph that it furthers the general welfare. To encourage noncommercial commercial educational radio and television broadcast programs. Which will be responsive to the. Interest of people both in particular localities and throughout the United States. You have in a measure just dealt with that declaration. And answer. By. The Congress declares that it is necessary and appropriate for the federal government to compliment assist and support a national policy. That will most effectively make noncommercial educational radio and television service available to all citizens of the United States. You've dealt with that in other words you feel that these this declaration of policy conforms to what

will be in the best interests of developing the improved educational system in our institutions of learning high school from grammar school. I do sir. I. You have studied have you with the the corporate structure of this. Bill of this entity as provided by the bill. Not in not in tremendous depth. Senator but I am generally familiar with it. Well it provides for 15 directors of 15 directors nominated by the president and with the advice and consent of the Senate. And do you feel that the bill is adequate in its language to ensure that it shall be nonprofit. In its operations the corporation. Well the wording of the bell is and is highly explicit

in this regard. I don't see how it could possibly be misunderstood. By by any board of directors are any other agency for that matter. Now paragraph 3. Dealing with officers employees employees on page 14 provide the corporation may not contribute to or support any political party or candidate for elected public office. That is in Canada to ensure that there will not be politics played by this. Newly established entity. This is also highly explicit. Now I wonder and paragraphs see page 14.

The corporation is authorized to assist in the establishment and development of one or more systems. Of noncommercial educational television. Or radio broadcast stations throughout the United States. Will you elaborate in detail on how the central communication will be provided that is by microwave and satellite. We would. We visualize that it would be provided initially. By. Terrestrial microwave systems which are in existence at the present time so. That as it is possible. To bring satellites. And there there are earth stations. This is the satellite system. Into service. This.

Satellite service would be integrated into the terrestrial system in the most effective and economical way the most economical way at the present time is to make it available for the longer haul circuits. Where the cost differential between satellite communication. And terrestrial mains. First makes its appearance as we expect. That satellites will be more economical than. Terrestrial means. Over distances larger than a thousand miles. And this assumes also that the organization that. It is is performing the satellite service. Of course it is. Has achieved. Has turned the corner of getting its.

Its early cos resolved. I'm not quite clear on your position regarding the advisability of this. Entity setting up its own satellite system or being served by commercial satellite system. Well I'm saying that that. Initially and we should start out. And I think that. We should expect that we would be. Dependent on our existing terrestrial. Common Carrier communications system for a period of. Three to five years. During the interim period during this very end. And. Now. Let's say the the. I'm not trying to suggest to the Federal Communications Commission. How

they would decide the issues as to who should do this. But. Some a decision will be made in the. Proper time as to how this should be done. There is a proposal before us for example which. Communications Satellite Corporation has offered to do this on an experimental or trial basis. This is one possibility. I would not recommend I am not recommending However the establishment of another corporation profit or nonprofit though it may be. At this time are in the in the immediate future. To undertake this because of the Unknowns and the uncertainties and the. Rest's which are involved and the time. That it could well take for that organisation to chart to start to show.

Returns in terms of savings. I think that so have I. In other words what you're saying generally is that. The. Passage of this legislation. And the establishment of this public television cooperation. Is not dependent upon the solution. Of the establishment of the satellite to begin with. Not at all and that it can stand on its two feet. Without regard to the resolution of that of the problem which needs to be resolved. Precisely. And what you're saying is that there is existing today. I now. Carry technology and facilities and they maybe have to be some expansion. But you would more or less let it be conventional for a period of time until we resolve the overall question of other interconnection. Is that correct exactly. Now with reference to page 14 that has been pointed out by my distinguished colleague

from Ohio and I'm calling attention to subsection C Bill. Assist in the establishment and development of one or more systems of noncommercial educational television or radio broadcast stations throughout the United States. You don't construe that to be authority upon this new corporation to establish such a system on its own as a. Operational function do you. I don't interpret it that way Mr. Chairman. It says assist in the establishment and development. In other words really they can tell me that it would be done by other. Entities. With the assistance of this all by contract on the part of the corporation. By paying the bill given a grant for the cost involved of what you might have.

It's my understanding that from the bell that this corporation would not get to extensively into the operating business. Wow because tense we we've heard talking about diversity we've heard diverse views and I think it's one of the matters that has a better result. It has to be resolved but I I don't think it's going to be such a touchy problem. Now there is only one further question this came up once before. There has been some apprehension expressed that the agreements that we achieve between the United States and other governments in 1964 precludes our determination as to who should manage the communications satellite if we ever get around to it do you construe it as a prohibition in any way. I do not. Mr. Chairman I do not. Any further questions. I want to ask the general this week. We haven't had like Michael to stop a marriage like to get your views on it. Come June the 30th

the bill that we. Passed three and a half not three and a half years ago and. To. Aid educational TV state by state. Expired. Now. This Bellah course is deliberately the bill I introduced here deliberately has left out the the financing of the operation of this corporation if it's to carry out. The objectives of the bill. Nine million to begin with that two hundred fifty thousand. Five hundred. Ohio man got a hundred thousand for the study. Now if this bill is passed and the corporation is set up. And they have this very minor sum of 9 million to work with.

They obviously could do the things we're talking about here today with that. The study would take some time. Would you suggest that we extend the other bill in the interim. The chairman is referring to the facilities. Yeah I certainly think it would be helpful if this could be done. If it had not been helpful we've never been able to get the five that I had to get out of the bill but I had no resources that would certainly help to get this. On the march. The newer stations are newer stations actually right. But it course it can be very helpful in the step unleashing a nationwide program such as we're talking about in this bill. Except to set up the station right. We do have that practical problem. Seems to me was determined I would be very helpful.

The this study of course should these will be submitted to the president. We have January 1969. That's a. Box of 18 months. I don't know that he did do what study about have you. I wouldn't think so it's worked very well. It has or will back your full of study for it. It is certainly Ben the. The major factor that has gotten educational TV started those far. It seems to me it doesn't need any just with additional justification we can point to the results that have been accomplished. And the the start and. End growth of our. Systems throughout the states. As as being a direct result of that bill of that original of that original bill we call it a one shot deal because we didn't know how to proceed. So all. These different suggestions that were

consider enough. But I think we know what we want to do. And I think we know what we should do this you. Know that is a question not a sit down and proceed as quickly as possible. And not do much study about this. I completely agree with you Mr. Chairman. Well I want to show my distinguished Cham on. That a little bit of cooperation from the agencies I promise him. As the chairman of the Commerce Committee that he'll have a bill by Mother's Day Soon thereafter. Has the other bill this committee considered a force for a long time and finally got a lot of. Star go of the all channel sets. I think this is going to be helpful I think and well. I think the state of Ohio is primarily responsible for a lot of because that one time I had a few stations that broadcast all the Ohio State football did

it so there was a rush should I go I should make a mark that said and I should make a more emphatic statement Mr. Chairman. Without that bill we wouldn't be in a position today to go ahead with the TV and this committee story was essential. There are a lot and you know it was a it was an excellent job and it was absolutely essential to bring about the opportunity and the potential which now is before us. So you envision as I understand it this bill as the minimum possible possible begin. And then of course we're going to have to. Make some decision. Very soon. As to the financing there. Find Ways and Means and in the meantime we may have to extend the other bill for a reasonable period of time with that. It's I think an adequate financing but it's up for the New York stations that are going to commit.

Thank you. Has there been any study thus far given to what the ultimate cost of the program will be. I think the Carnegie Commission has has produced. The best estimate on this on this. Doing. It as I recall those. 140 hundred forty minutes. And spread over how many years. That was per year when it when the heat when the system reaches. After I think this was after five years. My memory serves me correctly it would. Build up our after 10 years I'm not sure that 1 1980 I would say it's over 10 years. By 1980 it would have achieved a going rate of approximately one hundred forty million dollars a year if you had that you had our goal of the 390

stations went dark. Right right. Which is not too large of a mouth. When you consider the in comparison to the 5 that we think are required and I think rightly so in the field of education. Yes or. No. What is to be admitted. Because that is not contemplated at all of this money will come out of the United States Treasury. They expect to receive some money from the foundation and they expect to seem some money from private contributors and then of Koch said they talked about this manufactures excise tax which is another problem that we need to decide here today. I there any further question the chair is not we want to thank you gentlemen. Thank you. Right. Those were unlikely but it is a fact of office of the gentleman comic. And asked to appear before the committee with the Shire of three more like

Chairman of Comsat the communications satellite corporation like General O'Connell he too will be accompanied by top aides general McCormick chairman of the communications but three different groups putting builds into credit Massachusetts Missy Gold's special commission has a disclosure bill a retail installment sales act. And one other what's the other one appellation of the smallest monster but the messages consume a council is put in a disclosure Finance Act. A cooling off period for installment contracts and the abolition of the small loans Act and the it when your likely fate if one more. General Mr Brooke has filed a comprehensive retail installment sales Act including a partial disclosure provision. And there's a meeting of I think you're going to advance through Friday morning for us a broker in the attorney I don't know whose offices I've been invited to this summit what's the political realities of

these bills. The political reality is if if if you have the attorney general cooperating with the consumer groups I think the maybe the maybe great possibility of getting something through this year. Yes Mrs. O'Neal some pressure can be brought also for these things but by the misuse of Consumer Association of which Mrs. eagle was a president by the way she made like to make a little statement Thank you very much. Mrs. ODIO. I just want to I know time is running short so I just like to observe that the Massachusetts Consumers Association on January 23rd is having a special legislative meeting at Boston College to discuss just these very matters that we've been discussing here today so if anyone's interested they could get more discussion on the same subject at that time. There is no charge for admission it's open to the public at 9:30 in the morning on the 23rd of January. I'm afraid time is right. I want to thank you all for taking part.

I think we can say this to summarize our discussion that most of us feel there is some need for clarity of interest rates in a very variety of transactions although one or two of us perhaps don't feel it needs to take a specific form of annual statement. There's a feeling that there's no on economic called discrimination in the setting of rates. That is what discrimination is done is done for economic reasons. However there was a feeling that risk really plays very little role in what is actually done in the rate setting business because risk constitutes is so minute in the total picture. And finally a note of warning from one of our panelist members that while we've mostly taken a consumer point of view here we must remember the small loan business as a small operation possibly and one whose interests must be considered in this whole picture as well. Again thank you very much.