PBS NewsHour; Tuesday, August 9, 2022, 3:00pm-4:00pm PDT

♪ JUDY: GOOD EVENING. I'M JUDY WOODRUFF. ON "THE NEWSHOUR" TONIGHT... THE FBI AT MAR-A-LAGO -- AGENTS SEARCH THE SOUTH FLORIDA HOME OF FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP IN WHAT APPEARS TO BE PART OF AN INVESTIGATION INTO WHETHER HE TOOK CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS FROM THE WHITE HOUSE. THEN... ONE-ON-ONE -- WE DISCUSS THE DEMOCRATS' MAJOR CLIMATE AND HEALTH CARE LEGISLATION, AND WHETHER IT WILL DELIVER ON ITS PROMISES, WITHENATE MAJORITY LEADER CHUCK SCHUMER. AN.. OUTREACH IN AFRICA -- SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLKEN VISITS MULTIPLE AFRICAN NATIONS IN AN EFFORT TO COUNTERACT CHINESE AND RUSSIAN INFLUENCE. >> MY WORRY IS THAT THIS STRATEGY WILL JUST REPRODUCE THOSE SAME OLD DYNAMICS RATHER THAN BRING ABOUT GENUINE RTNERSHIP BETWEEN THE U.S. AND VARIOUS AFRICAN NATIONS. JUDY: ALL THAT AND MORE ON

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♪ ♪ THIS PROGRAM WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE CORPORATION FOR PUBLIC BROADCASTING AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU. THANK YOU. JUDY: QUESTIONS ARE SWIRLING AFTER THE FBI SEARCHED FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP'S PALM BEACH, FLORIDA HOME YESTERDAY. REPORTS SUGGEST THE SEARCH WAS A PART OF INVESTIGATIONS INTO WHETHER TRUMP TOOK CLASSIFIED RECORDS FROM THE WHITE HOUSE TO HIS MAR-A-LAGO ESTATE. TRUMP WAS NOT IN FLORIDA AT THE TIME BUT HE ANNOUNCED THE NEWS OF THE SEARCH HIMSELF LAST NIGHT, DECRYING IT AS

WEAPONIZING THE JUSTICE SYSTEM AGAINST HIM AND A POLITICAL ATTACK. THIS MARKS WHAT COULD BE A DRAMATIC ESCALATION OF ONE OF SEVERAL INVESTIGATIONS RELATED TO THE FORMER PRESIDENT. CARRIE JOHNSON COVERS THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT FOR NPR AND IS FOLLOWING THIS ALL CLOSELY. SHE JOINS US NOW. WELCOME BACK. WHAT DO WE THINK THEY WERE AFTER? CARRIE: WE DON'T HAVE A COPY OF THE SEARCH WARRANT OR UNDERLYING AFFIDAVIT. WE THINK FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP AND/OR HIS LAWYERS MIGHT HAVE SOME OF THOSE MATERIALS AND THEY HAVE NOT RELEASED THEM PUBLICLY. WHAT WE KNOW FROM THE TRUMP ATTORNEYS AND FAMILY MEMBERS, INCLUDING ERIC TRUMP, IS THIS APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN EXECUTED SEARCH RELATED TO THE PRESIDENTIAL RECORDS ACT AND THE POSSIBLE VIOLATION OF LAWS RELATED TO CLASSIFIED MATERIAL. WE THINK THIS BEGAN IN FEBRUARY WHEN THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES REPORTED TO THE JUSTICE

DEPARTMENT THAT SOMETHING LIKE 15 BOXES OF INFORMATION HAD WRONGFULLY ENDED UP AT MAR-A-LAGO INSTEAD OF AT THE ARCHIVES AND IT SET OFF THIS PROCESS, WHICH HAS INCLUDED A GRAND JURY INVESTIGATION AND NOW WHAT APPEARS TO BE AN UNPRECEDENTED SEARCH BY THE FBI OF THE PROPERTY BELONGING TO A FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. JUDY: WHAT IS CURIOUS AMONG MANY THINGS THAT IS HAPPEN, THERE WAS THIS MEETING IN THE SPRING AND THEY DISCUSSED, AS YOU SAID, 15 BOXES, AND NOW IT HAS BEEN REPORTED BY FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LAWYER THAT THEY TOOK ANOTHER 12 BOXES YESTERDAY. DO WE HAVE ANY CLUE WHAT WAS HERE? WHAT KIND OF RECORDS ARE THEY LOOKING FOR? CARRIE: IN TYPICAL SEARCHES, THE FBI WOULD LEAVE THE OWNER OF THE PROPERTY WITH AN INVENTORY OR WRITTEN RECEIPT THAT EXPLAINS THE KIND OF THINGS THAT WERE TAKEN. IN THIS CASE WE BELIEVE THAT HAPPENED, BUT FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS ATTORNEY HAVE NOT

RELEASED THAT INFORMATION. AT THIS POINT, IT IS NOT CLEAR WHETHER THOSE 10 OR 12 BOXES OF NEW MATERIALS TAKEN OUT OF MAR-A-LAGO YESTERDAY CONTAINED TOP-SECRET INFORMATION, GENERAL PAPERWORK, OR OTHER ITEMS THAT WOULD BE OF LESS SENSITIVE NATIONAL SECURITY BASIS. WE JUST DON'T KNOW. THE ISSUE SEEMS TO BE THAT MOST OF THOSE MATERIALS BELONG WITH THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND IT WILL TAKE THE FBI SOME TIME TO GO THROUGH ALL OF THOSE MATERIALS IN A PAINSTAKING FASHION AND FIGURE OUT WHAT THEY ARE AND HOW CONCERNING THEY ARE. JUDY: AT THE VERY LEAST, IT DOES APPEAR THERE WAS A DISAGREEMENT AT SOME LEVEL BETWEEN THE FORMER PRESIDENT AND THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES OR SOME OTHER BRANCH OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT WAS SAYING YOU HAVE SOMETHING WE THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE TURNED OVER TO US. CARRIE: WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS IN THESE MATERIALS. WHAT WE KNOW IS THIS IS A MONUMENTAL ESCALATION OF THE LEGAL PROCESS AGAINST A FORMER PRESIDENT.

TWO OF MY SOURCES SEEM TO SUGGEST IT MAY HAVE TAKEN PLACE IN PART BECAUSE FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS ATTORNEYS WERE NOT ENTIRELY FORTHCOMING WITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND FBI AND MAY HAVE BEEN GIVING THEM THE RUN AROUND FOR WEEKS OR MONTHS. PUTTING THE DOJ AND FBI IN THE POSITION OF HAVING TO GET A MAGISTRATE JUDGE TO APPROVE THIS COURT EXECUTED -- COURT APPROVED SEARCH. THAT'S NOT SOMETHING YOU EXPECT WITH THE FORMAL OFFICIAL OF THIS LEVEL. WE NEED TO FIND OUT. THE FBI IS NOT COMMENTING AT ALL. WE NEED TO FIND OUT WHAT WAS IN THOSE MATERIALS. IT MAY TAKE FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP RELEASING THAT TO FIND OUT. JUDY: THERE ARE MANY CALLS FOR THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO PUT THE INFORMATION OUT THERE SO WE CAN SEE WHAT IT WAS THAT LED THEM TO BELIEVE THERE IS SOMETHING OF VALUE, OF IMPORT, THAT THE FORMER PRESIDENT WAS KEEPING IN HIS POSSESSION. IS THERE ANY NOTION THAT JUSTICE WILL PUT THAT INFORMATION OUT?

CARRIE: A NUMBER OF REPUBLICANS ON CAPITOL HILL ARE DEMANDING BRIEFINGS BY THE FBI AND JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OFFICIALS. IT IS HIGHLY UNUSUAL FOR THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND FBI TO TALK ABOUT AN ONGOING INVESTIGATION THAT INVOLVES A GRAND JURY IN THIS WAY. THERE ARE RULES AND LAWS THAT PROHIBIT THESE OFFICIALS FROM DISCLOSING GRAND JURY INFORMATION. SO I DO NOT EXPECT WE WILL HAVE A FULL DISCLOSURE OF WHAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WTED OR WHAT THE FBI FOUND IN THE NEAR TERM. THAT SAID, AT SOME POINT, SOME OF THESE COURT MATERIALS WILL BECOME PUBLIC AND WE WILL KNOW A LOT MORE THEN ABOUT WHY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TOOK THIS STEP THAT APPEARS TO BE UNPRECEDENTED, AND WHAT THEY FOUND, AND IF IT IS A VIOLATION OF THE LAW. IT'S NOT CLEAR IF FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP IS THE TARGET, IF THERE IS A SPECIFIC TARGET, OR IF ANYONE WILL BE CHARGED WITH WRONGDOING. IT MAY BE THAT THE GOVERNMENT JUST WANTED THE DOCUMENTS BACK. AT THIS POINT IT'S HARD TO KNOW FOR SURE BECAUSE THERE'S NOT A LOT OF VISIBILITY. JUDY: IF IT WAS JUST A MATTER OF

WANTING THEM BAC WHY WOULD THEY CONDUCT THIS HIGHLY UNUSUA UNPRECEDENTED SEARCH OF HIS RESIDENCE AND SPENT SEVERAL HOURS ON THE PREMISES? CARRIE: WE KNOW THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES HAVE SAID THAT IN THE INITIAL MATERIALS SENT BACK TO THE ARCHIVES -- NOT THE MATERIAL FROM YESTERDAY, BUT THE INITIAL MATERIAL -- THERE WAS TOP-SECRET INFORMATION. SO THERE IS SOME BASIS FOR THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO HAVE CONVINCED A JUDGE THAT THERE IS PROBABLE CAUSE A CRIME HAD TAKEN PLACE THAT MAY HAVE INVOLVED NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATION AND VIOLATION OF THE PRESIDENTIAL RECORDS ACT THAT DATESACK TO THE POST NIXON ERA. AND GINGERLY MORE WE WILL FIND OUT IN THE FUTURE. -- POTENTIALLY MORE WE WILL FIND OUT IN THE FUTURE. JUDY: THANK YOU, CARRIE. AND IN A SEPARATE LEGAL DISPUTE REGARDING THE FORMER PRESIDENT, A FEDERAL APPEALS COURT TODAY AGREED WITH A LOWER COURT RULING THATHE TREASURY DEPARTMENT SHOULD HAND OVER MR.

TRUMP'S TAX RECORDS TO A U.S. HOUSE COMMITTEE. IF APPEALED, THE CASE COULD BE TAKEN UP BY THE U.S. SUPREME COURT. ♪ IN THE DAY'S OTHER NEWS... FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE MIKE POMPEO MET WITH THE JANUARY 6TH CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE. HE COULD SHED LIGHT ON DISCUSSIONS ABOUT INVOKING THE 25TH AMENDMENT TO REMOVE MR. TRUMP FROM OFFICE AFTER THE ATTACK ON THE U.S. CAPITOL. ALSO TODAY, DOUG MASTRIANO -- THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE FOR GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA WHO WAS OUTSIDE THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6TH -- APPEARED VIRTUALLY BEFORE THE COMMITTEE, BUT LEFT AFTER CHALLENGING ITS VALIDITY. THE FORMER PRESIDENT AND HIS FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE ARE WAGING ANOTHER PROXY BATTLE TONIGHT. IT'S IN WISCONSIN, WHERE TIM MICHELS -- ENDORSED BY MR. TRUMP -- FACES PENCE-BACKED REBECCA KLEEFISCH IN THE REPUBLICAN GUBERNATORIAL CONTEST. MEANWHILE, VERMONT DEMOCRATS ARE

CHOOSING A NOMINEE FOR CONGRESS. THE WINNER COULD BE THE STATE'S FIRST FEMALE REPRESENTATIVE TO WASHINGTON. THE GOVERNMENT OF TAIWAN WARNED TODAY THAT ONGOING CHINESE WAR GAMES ARE A REHEARSAL TO TAKE OVER THE ISLAND, AND ALL OF THE WESTERN PACIFIC. CHINA BEGAN MAJOR MILITARY MANEUVERS AFTER NANCY PELOSI, THE SPEAKER OF THE U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, VISITED TAIWAN. THE TAIWANESE FOREIGN MINISTER SPOKE TODAY IN TAIPEI. MIN. WU: CHINA HAS USED THE DRILLS IN ITS MILITARY PLAYBOOK TO PREPARE FOR THE INVASION OF TAIWAN. IT IS CONDUCTING LARGE-SCALE MILITARY EXERCISES AND MISSILE LAUNCHES, AS WELL AS CYBER ATTACKS, DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN, AND ECONOMIC COERCION. JUDY: TAIWAN'S MILITARY ALSO CARRIED OUT ITS OWN WAR GAMES TODAY. SOLDIERS WERE SEEN FIRING ARTILLERY TO SIMULATE DEFENSE AGAINST INVASION. ISRAELI TROOPS KILLED 3 PALESTINIAN MILITANTS AND WOUNDED DOZENS TODAY IN A SHOOTOUT IN THE OCCUPIED WEST

BANK. IT HAPPENED DURING AN ARREST OPERATION IN NABLUS. ISRAELI OFFICIALS SAID SOLDIERS OPENED FIRE AFTER PALESTINIANS ATTACKED THEM WITH ROCKS AND EXPLOSIVES. BACK IN THIS COUNTRY, POLICE I ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, SAY THEY'VE DETAINED THE PRIMARY SUSPECT IN THE KILLINGS OF 4 MUSLIM MEN. INVESTIGATORS TOOK THE 51-YEAR-OLD INTO CUSTODY AFTER TRACKING DOWN A CAR LINKED TO ONE OF THE KILLINGS. THEY ARE INVESTIGATING WHETHER HE IS ALSO RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATHS OF TWO OTHER MEN. ALL OF THE VICTIMS WERE FROM PAKISTAN OR AFGHANISTAN. A GRAND JURY IN MISSISSIPPI HAS DECIDED AGAINST INDICTING A WHITE WOMAN IN THE LYNCHING OF EMMETT TILL. THE TEENAGER WAS KILLED AFTER CAROLYN DONHAM ACCUSED HIM OF LEWD COMMENTS AND ACTIONS IN 1955. IN 2017, A BOOK QUOTED DONHAM AS SAYING SHE HAD LIED, BUT TODAY A PROSECUTOR SAID THE GRAND JURY

FOUND INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO INDICT. DONHAM IS NOW IN HER 80'S. PRESIDENT BIDEN SIGNED THE SO-CALLED "CHIPS" ACT TODAY, AIMED AT BOOSTING U.S. SEMI-CONDUCTOR OUTPUT. THE CEREMONY TOOK PLACE ON THE SOUTH LAWN OF THE WHITE HOUSE. THE PRESIDENT SAID THE "CHIPS" LAW PLUS THE CLIMATE HEALTH CARE BILL MOVING IN CONGRESS REPRESENT A TURNING POINT. PRES. BIDEN: I'M CONFIDENT THAT DECADES FROM NOW, PEOPLE WILL LOOK BACK AT THIS WEEK WITH ALL WE PASSED AND ALL WE MOVED ON, THAT WE MET THE MOMENT AT THIS INFLECTION POINT IN HISTORY, A MOMENT WHEN WE BET ON OURSELVES, BELIEVED IN OURSELVES, AND RECAPTURED THE STORY, THE SPIRIT AND THE SOUL OF THIS NATION. JUDY: THE "CHIPS" ACT INCLUDES $280 BILLION IN TAX BREAKS AND RESEARCH FUNDING. THE FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION TODAY AUTHORIZED A PLAN TO STRETCH THE LIMITED SUPPLY OF MONKEYPOX VACCINE IN THE U.S. IT CALLS FOR INJECTING ONE-FIFTH OF THE USUAL DOSE IN EACH OF 2 SHOTS.

THE FDA SAYS RESEARCH SUGGESTS THE SMALLER DOSAGE IS ABOUT AS EFFECTIVE AS THE REGULAR DOSE. ON WALL STREET, DISAPPOINTING EARNINGS FROM CHIP MAKER MICRON TECHNOLOGY PUSHED TECH STOCKS AND THE BROADER MARKET A BIT LOWER. THE DOW JONES INDUSTRIAL AVERAGE LOST 58 POINTS TO CLOSE AT 32,774. THE NASDAQ FELL 150 POINTS -- 1%. THE S&P 500 SLIPPED 17. TENNIS GREAT SERENA WILLIAMS SAYS SHE WILL BE STEPPING AWAY FROM PROFESSIONAL PLAY TO FOCUS ON HER FAMILY AND BUSINESS. THE 40-YEAR-OLD WROTE ON INSTAGRAM TODAY THAT "THERE COMES A TIME WHEN WE HAVE TO DECIDE TO MOVE IN A DIFFEREN DIRECTION. NOW, THE COUNTDOWN HAS BEGUN." WILLIAMS HAS WON 23 GRAND SLAM TITLES. SHE STILL PLANS TO PLAY IN THE U.S. OPEN THIS MONTH. AND, THE LEGENDARY MOTOWN SONGWRITER AND PRODUCER LAMONT DOZIER HAS DIED. IN THE 1960'S, HE JOINED WITH BRIAN AND EDDIE HOLLAND, WRITING MORE THAN 25 TOP TEN HITS FOR

THE SUPREMES, THE FOUR TOPS, MARVIN GAYE AND OTHERS. HERE'S A CLIP OF THE SUPREMES PERFORMING ONE OF THOSE HITS -- "WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO?" >> ♪ WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO? AND ALL YOUR PROMISES OF A LOVE FOREVERMORE I'VE GOT THIS BURNING, BURNING, YEARNING FEELIN' INSIDE ME OOH, DEEP INSIDE ME, AND IT HURTS SO BAD ♪ JUDY: JUST ONE OF HIS MANY HIT. HE WAS 81 YEARS OLD. STILL TO COME ON "THE NEWSHOUR"... REPUBLICAN ARKANSAS GOVERNOR ASA HUTCHINSON AND FORMER DEMOCRATIC SENATOR DOUG JONES DISCUSS THE FBI SEARCH OF MAR-A-LAGO. THE SECRETARY OF STATE TAKES A MULTI-COUNTRY TOUR OF AFRICA TO COUNTERACT CHINESE AND RUSSIAN INFLUENCE.

AUTHOR MOHSIN HAMID EXPLORES THE CONSTRUCT OF RACE IN HIS NEW NOVEL, "THE LAST WHITE MAN." PLUS MUCH MORE. >> THIS IS "THE PBS NEWSHOUR" FROM WETA STUDIOS IN WASHINGTON, AND IN THE WEST FROM THE WALTER CRONKITE SCHOOL OF JOURNALISM AT ARIZONA STATE UNIVERSITY. JUDY: AS WE REPORTED, PRESIDENT BIDEN SIGNED THE BIPARTISAN CHIPS ACT INTO LAW TODAY. IT'S ONE OF THE LEGISLATIVE VICTORIES DEMOCRATS ARE TOUTING THIS WEEK, JUST DAYS BEFORE THE PRESIDENT'S FAVORED HEALTH CARE, TAX AND CLIMATE CHANGE BILL, KNOWN AS THE "INFLATION REDUCTION ACT," HEADS TO THE HOUSE, WHERE IT'S LIKELY TO PASS, AFTER PASSING ALONG STRICTLY PARTY LINES IN THE SENATE. SENATE MAJORITY LEADER CHUCK SCHUMER, A DEMOCRAT FROM NEW YORK, PLAYED A KEY ROLE IN GETTING THE BILL THROUGH THAT CHAMBER AND I SPOKE WITH HIM EARLIER TODAY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

BEFORE I ASK YOU ABOUT THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THIS UNPRECEDENTED RAID BY THE FBI ON A FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S HOME IN PALM BEACH. WERE YOU OR ANY OTHER SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL LEADER BRIEFED ABOUT THIS, AND IF NOT, SHOULDN'T YOU HAVE BEEN? SEN. SCHUMER: WE WERE NOT A BRIEFED AND I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH DETAIL TO MAKE A DETERMINATION, WHETHER WE SHOULD OR SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN. I AM NOT GOING TO COMMENT ON THIS UNTIL MORE INFORMATION COMES OUT. ALL I KNOW IS WHAT ALL OF US HAVE READ IN THE NEWS MEDIA. JUDY: LET ME AT LEAST ASK YOU TO QUESTIONS, ONE IS ABOUT FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S REACTION, SAYING THIS IS A SIGN OF CORRUPTION IN THE BIDEN AND INITIATION. HE SAID -- BIDEN ADMINISTRATION. HE SAID IT IS A SIGN THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAS BEEN WEAPONIZED. SEN. SCHUMER: I'M NOT COMMENTING UNTIL WE HAVE MORE INFORMATION. JUDY: I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. KEVIN MCCARTHY TELLING MERRICK GARLAND THAT WHEN THE

REPUBLICANS TAKE OVER THE HEARTS, THEY WILL INVESTIGATE HIM. WE HAVE THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMTEE CHAIR SAYING TO AMERICANS, SEND US MONEY SO WE CAN ELECT MORE REPUBLICANS THIS FALL. WILL THIS BE A PROBLEM FOR DEMOCRATS IN THE MIDTERMS? SEN. SCHUMER: I THINK COMMENTING ON THIS IS PREMATURE FOR ME OR ANYBODY ELSE. JUDY: ALL RIGHT, WE WILL TURN TO THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT, SENATOR SCHUMER. I THINK MANY PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT THIS AND THEY SEE A LOT OF NUMBERS THEY WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR ORDINARY AMERICANS -- WHAT WOULD YOU SAY? SEN. SCHUMER: IS PROBABLY THE MOST SIGNIFICANT AND SWEEPING LEGISLATION FOR ORDINARY AMERICANS IN DECADES. IT WILL MEAN A LOT OF DIFFERENT THINGS. IT WILL MEAN PEOPLE'S COSTS WILL BE REDUCED. WE'VE BEEN WAITING FOR YEARS TO ALLOW MEDICARE TO NEGOTIATE WITH DRUG COMPANIES TO LOWER COSTS, AND THAT WILL HAPPEN AND PEOPLE'S COSTS WILL BE MUCH LOWER. INSULIN FOR PEOPLE ON MEDICARE WILL ONLY BE $35 A MONTH AS OPSED TO THE A HUNDRED DOLLARS NOW.

-- 600 DOLLARS OR $800 NOW. ON THE HEALTH CARE FRONT, AND ONE OTHER THING, NO ONE WILL PAY MORE THAN $2000 A YEAR FOR PRESCRIPTION DRUGS. IF YOU ARE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAS VERY NEEDED BUT EXPENSIVE MEDICATIONS THAT COST $500 OR DOES, YOU WILL BE IN BETTER SHAPE. ON THE CLIMATE FRONT, IT IS THE MOST DRAMATIC CHANGE IN CLIMATE, OF GLOBAL WARMING, THAT WE HAVE HAD, BUT IT WILL MEAN LOWER COSTS FOR PEOPLE. THE AVERAGE ELECTRIC BILL WILL GO DOWN BY $1000 BY 2030. PEOPLE WILL PAY LESS FOR APPLIANCES THAT ARE MORE EFFICIENT AND LESS EXPENSIVE. AND IT WILL MEAN THAT WE WILL CLOSE TAX LOOPHOLES ON THE VERY WEALTHY WHO HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH THIS FOR A VERY LONG TIME. TO BOOT, WE CREATED ABOUT 9 MILLION NEW JOBS IN THE CLEAN ENERGY INDUSTRY AND THOSE WILL OFTEN GO TO PEOPLE OF COLOR, OR PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO GET THESE JOBS IN THE PAST. IT WILL MEAN A LOT OF THINGS FOR

A LOT OF PEOPLE, AND THE FACT FINALLY THAT GLOBAL WARNING, WE WILL GET A HANDLE ON IT, HE WILL MEAN THE PEOPLE WILL BE MORE PROTECTED FROM THE FLOODS AND HURRICANES AND FIRES AND EVERYTHING ELSE HAPPENING BECAUSE OF GLOBAL WARMING. JUDY: ONE ASPECT OF THIS IS DRUG PRICES. LOWER PRICE CAPS ON DRUGS THAT PEOPLE COUNT ON, THOSE DON'T GO INTO EFFECT UNTIL 2025, 2.5 YEARS FROM NOW. THE GOVERNMENT NEGOTIATING WITH THE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY DOES NOT TAKE EFFECT UNTIL 2025. SEN. SCHUMER: BUT TWO OTHER THINGS TAKE EFFECT FAR MORE QUICKLY, THE $35 CAP ON INSULIN TAKES EFFECT IN 2023, AS DOES THE $2000 LIMIT ON DRUGS. SO WE WILL HAVE A LOT OF EFFECTS IMMEDIATELY. IN THE LONGER RUN, EVEN GREATER EFFECTS STILL. ONCE THE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY KNOWS THEY HAVE TO NEGOTIATE, THEY MAY ADJUST ACCORDINGLY HEAD OF TIME AS WELL. DY: I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT ONE OF THE TRACKS -- THE TAX PROVISIONS. WE KNOW ARIZONA SENATOR KYRSTEN

SINEMA INSISTED THIS REVISION THAT WOULD HAVE MEAN HIGHER TAXES ON HEDGE FUNDS AND PRIVATE EQUITY MANAGERS BE TAKEN OUT. HOW DOES THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY SAY WE ARE THE PARTY OF WORKING-CLASS, MIDDLE-CLASS AMERICANS WHEN THERE CONTINUES TO BE THIS LOOPHOLE FOR BILLIONAIRES WHO ARE IN PRIVATE EQUITY OR THE HEDGE FUND BUSINESS? SEN. SCHUMER: SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA INSISTED IT BE TAKEN OUT, WE COULD TAKE IT OUT AND HAVE THE OTHER GOOD THINGS, OR KEEP IT IN AND LET THE BILL DIE. WE SUBSTITUTED A 1% TAX ON STOCK BUYBACKS. THESE STOCK BUYBACKSLSO HELP RPORATE BILLIONAIRES AND THE BIG HEDGE FUND HOLDERS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. THEY DO NO BENEFIT FOR PEOPLE, THEY JUST MAKE THE STOCK PRICE GO UP TO FEWER SHARES. THAT BROUGHT IN $70 BILLION AGAINST THE VERY WEALTHY. THE CARRIED INTEREST LOOPHOLE, I WAS FOR GETTING RID OF IT, WAS ONLY 14. JUDY: THE REPUBLICANS, INCLUDING YOUR COLLEAGUES IN THE SENATE

RIGHT NOW, OUT THERE SAYING THE IRS WITH 87,000 MORE AGENTS WILL BE TARGETING MIDDLE INCOME AMERICANS? SEN. SCHUMER: THEY ARE LYING. THIS IS TYPICAL OF REPUBLICANS, THEY DEFEND THE VERY RICH AND SAY THEY ARE DEFENDING THE MIDDLE CLASS. WHEN THEY DID THE TRUMP TAX CUTS, THEY SAID THEY WERE FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS BUT THE VAST MAJORITY WENT TO THE VERY RICH. THIS IS WHAT REPUBLICANS WANT TO DO AND WE HAVE REVERSED IT, AND THAT WILL BE WELCOMED BY 90% OF AMERICANS. JUDY: THE OVERALL PICTURE THAT THIS IS A 750 SOME ODD BILLION DOLLAR BILL, DEMOCRATS FOR MONTHS WERE PUSHING FOR A 3.5 TRILLION DOLLAR, AND THEN A $1.75 TRILLION PACKAGE. THIS WENT ON FOR MONTHS. WHY NOT SETTLE FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS SOONER? IT WOULD NOT ONLY HAVE SAVED TIME BUT MEANT THE BENEFITS YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT GOING INTO EFFECT SOONER. SEN. SCHUMER: NO ONE WAS READY TO DO IT SOONER. THE BOTTOM LINE IS WE WANTED TO

GET AS GOOD A PACKAGE AS WE COULD. SENATOR JOE MANCHIN REJECTED THE PACKAGE WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN, SO I SAT DOWN WITH HIM AND WE NEGOTIATED AND IT TOOK US A WHILE TO GET THERE. EVERYBODY, INCLUDING THE MOST PROGRESSIVE PEOPLE, YOU LOOK AT EVERSENATOR FROM BERNIE SANDERS TO JOE MANCHIN, VOTED FOR THIS. EVERY BUDDY THOUGHT THIS WAS BETTER THAN NOTHING. THE CHOICE WAS NOT THIS OR SOMETHING BETTER, BECAUSE JOE MANCHIN AND KYRSTEN SINEMA WOULD NOT HAVE VOTED FOR SOMETHING ELSE. THE CHOICE WAS THIS OR NOTHING AND THIS IS VERY SIGNIFICANT. THE MOST SIGNIFICANT REDUCTION OF CARBON INTO THE ATMOSPHERE EVER, LEGIONS MORE THAN WE HAVE EVER DONE, FINALLY DEALING WITH PRESCRIPTION DRUGS AND THE LOOPHOLES THE WEALTHY GET AWAY WITH. THIS IS VERY SIGNIFICANT LEGISLATION. IT IS EASY TO SAY YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE MORE OR DONE IT DIFFERENTLY, BUT THIS IS A REALLY GOOD PACKAGE WE ARE PROUD OF. BY PULLING DATA, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, 70%, 80% SUPPORTED, AND EVEN 40% OF REPUBLICANS.

JUDY: HAS THERE BEEN A LESSON IN THIS FOR YOU AND OTHER DEMOCRATS IN DEALING WITH SENATOR JOE MANCHIN AND SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA? SEN. SCHUMER: I WILL TELL YOU THE OVERALL LESSON I HAVE. MY DAD PASSED AWAY IN NOVEMBER. HE WOULD HAVE BEEN 99 ON FLAG DAY. HE TAUGHT ME A LESSON -- HE IS STILL WITH ME. WHEN WE HAVE LOST PARENTS WE WERE CLOSE TO, THEY ARE NEVER FAR AWAY. HE SAID IF YOU ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING AND YOU PERSIST, IN HIS WORDS, GOD WILL REWARD YOU AND YOU WILL SUCCEED. WE KEPT PERSISTING WITH SENATOR JOE MANCHIN AND SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA. WE GOT SOMETHING, NOT EVERYTHING EVERYBODY WANTED BUT SOMETHING THAT IS GOOD, PERSIST AND YOU WILL SUCCEED. DON'T GIVE UP AND YOU WILL SUCCEED. THAT'S BEEN MY MOTTO MY WHOLE LIFE. I THINK WE'VE DONE SOME GOOD THINGS. LET'S NOT FORGET, WE DID A LOT OF OTHER THINGS THIS MONTH. THE CHIPS ACT, WHICH THE PRESIDENT SIGNED TODAY, WILL

KEEP THE AMERICAN ECONOMY NUMBER ONE AND EMPLOY MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. WE DID THE FIRST THING IN THE PACT ACT FOR VETERANS, SO WHEN THEY BREATHE IN TOXIN, THEY'RE TAKING CARE OF. FOR THE FIRST TIME WE'VE GOTTEN GUN-CONTROL LEGISLATION, NOT EVERYTHING WE WANTED BUT GOOD. FINALLY, FINLAND AND SAWEETIE -- AND SWEDEN ARE IN NATO. IT IS EASY TO PICK HOLES IN IT BUT IT IS A LOT MORE THAN ANY CONGRESS HAS DONE IN A LONG TIME. JUDY: FINALLY, LET ME ASK YOU IF THIS WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE THIS FALL. RESPECTED ANALYSTS ARE SAYING THE REPUBLICANS ARE LIKELY TO TAKE CONTROL OF THE HOUSE AND THEY MAY TAKE OVER CONTROL OF THE SENATE. NATHAN GONZALEZ, ONE OF THOSE ANALYSTS, IS SAYING REPUBLICANS ARE LIKELY TO PICK UP ONE TO THREE SEATS IN THE SENATE. SEN. SCHUMER: SOME OF THE OTHER ANALYSTS, 538 AND OTHER RESPECTED ONES, HAVE SAID WE WILL PICK UP SEATS IN THE SENATE. I BELIEVE WE WILL PICK UP SEATS FOR TWO REASONS. THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS MOVED

SO FAR TO THE RIGHT AND PEOPLE ARE SEEING IT AFTER THE COURT DECISIONS ON ABORTION AND THE OTHER DECISIONS ON GUNS AND THE ENVIRONMENT. THEY HAVE SEEN IN THE JANUARY 6 HEARINGS, AND WITH THE RADICAL RHETORIC AND THOUGHTS THAT COME FROM THE NEW MAGA REPUBLICANS. DEMOCRATS, WHEN THEY ARE IN, CAN THEY GET SOMETHING DONE? I THINK WE'VE ANSWERED THAT WITH A RESOUNDING YES IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS. I THINK IT WILL HELP US AND I THINK WE WILL PICK UP SEATS. JUDY: HOW MANY? SEN. SCHUMER: I AM NOT GOING TO GUESS THAT, YOU'VE GOT ENOUGH OUT OF ME. [LAUGHTER] JUDY: SENATE MAJORITY LEADER AND Q SO MUCH. SEN. SCHUMER: THANK YOU, JUDY, AND TAKE CARE. ♪ JUDY: BACK TO THE FBI SEARCH OF FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PALM BEACH, SORT OF.

ARKANSAS'S REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR JOINS US FOR THAT. EARLY IN HIS CAREER, HE SERVED AS U.S. ATTORNEY FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS UNDER PRESIDENT REAGAN. GOVERNOR HUTCHINSON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. YOU HAVE SAID THE FBI SEARCH OF FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S MAR-A-LAGO ESTATE IS ALARMING. WHY? GOV. HUTCHINSON: BECAUSE IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE, AND WHENEVER YOU HAVE SUCH A HIGH PUBLIC OFFICIAL, WE KNOW THE APPROVAL WAS GIVEN AT A HIGH LEVEL AT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE BECAUSE THAT IS THE STANDARD PRACTICE. JUST THE FACT THAT IT DOES REQUIRE THAT HIGH LEVEL OF APPROVAL MEANS IT IS A VERY SERIOUS THING. THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE THIS SEARCH WARRANT THAT IS EXECUTED -- I SAY IT IS ALARMING IN THE SENSE THAT WE NEED TO KNOW, THE PUBLIC NEEDS TO KNOW, THE INSTITUTIONS IN THE UNITED STATES NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHY THIS HAPPENED. WE DON'T HAVE THE AFFIDAVIT FOR

THE SEARCH WARRANT RELEASED, IT NEEDS TO BE RELEASED, IF IT HAS TO BE REDACTED, IT SHOULD BE REDACTED. BUT THE PUBLIC HAS AN INTEREST IN KNOWING WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE AND THE FACT THAT FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP CRITICIZED THE OPERATION AND MADE NOISE ABOUT IT INDICATES THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME KIND OF RESPONSE AND THAT IS IMPORTANT AT THIS POINT. JUDY: IT IS OUR UNDERSTANDING THAT IT IS DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE POLICY NOT TO MAKE THESE DOCUMENTS AROUND A SEARCH LIKE THIS PUBLIC. SO WHAT YOU'RE CALLING FOR WOULD BE A VIOLATION OF THAT POLICY, OR -- IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE ASKING FOR? GOV. HUTCHINSON: NO. IT HAS BEEN A WHILE SINCE I WAS A FEDERAL PROSECUTOR BETTER WAYS -- BUT I WAS U.S. ATTORNEY AND I UNDERSTAND THE GUIDELINES THEY HAVE. WHEN YOU PUT SOMETHING UNDER SEAL, AND A SEARCH WARRANT SHOULD BE UNDER SEAL, AND IT IS, BUT THAT SEAL, THEY CAN ASK THE SEARCH WARRANT BE RELEASED, THE

AFFIDAVIT BE RELEASED BECAUSE IT IS ALREADY PUBLIC INFORMATION. THE IDEA OF HAVING THAT SEALED IS TO PROTECT THE HOMEOWNER OR WHOEVER MIGHT BE IMPACTED BY THE CREATION OF THAT INFORMATION. HERE IT IS ALREADY OUT IN PUBLIC. WHILE THAT IS A STANDARD PRACTICE, THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS WHEN IT IS ALREADY PUBLIC INFORMATION. THEY CAN ASK THAT BE UNSEALED, AND I THINK THAT IS IMPORTANT TO BE DONE. IN SHORT OF THAT, THEY NEED TO MAKE A COMMENT, THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND THE PUBLIC INTEREST IN THIS AND LEGITIMATE INTEREST. THERE ARE TWO INSTITUTIONS AT STAKE HERE -- THE PRESIDENCY OF THE UNITED STATES, BUT THE OTHER IS THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE. I SERVED IN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, I CARE ABOUT IT, I VALUE IT, AND IT IS CRITICAL TO OUR DEMOCRACY THAT IT HAS CREDIBILITY AND BROAD SUPRT AND THEY OPERATE UNDER OUR RULE OF LAW AND THEY NEED TO EXPLAIN

WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE. THERE IS SOME URGENCY. I THINK BOTH DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS EXPECT SOME COMMENT FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE EXPLAINING EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING. JUDY: HOUSE MINORITY LEADER KEVIN MCCARTHY HAS ALREADY SAID WHAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS DONE IS WEAPONIZING, HE HAS USED THE TERM THEY WEAPONIZED THE JUSTICE SYSTEM. ARE YOU PREPARED TO GO THAT FAR? GOV. HUTCHINSON: NO, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW THE FACTS AND I THINK THAT WOULD BE UNFAIR. I THINK THEY'VE HAD INSTANCES IN THE PAST WHERE IT APPEARS THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT GOT POLITICAL, BUT I DON'T THINK WE OUGHT TO JUMP TO THAT CONCLUSION. I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD JUMP TO A DIFFERENT CONCLUSION. LET'S GET THE FACTS OUT THERE AND HEAR FROM THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED AND WHAT INTEREST IS AT STAKE. WE BELIEVE IN THE BROAD APPLICATION OF THE RULE OF LAW. JUDY: I AM SORRY TO INTERRUPT. WHAT HAS BEEN REPORTED, AS YOU KNOW, AGENTS SHOWED UP AT MAR-A-LAGO THIS SPRING AND HAD A

DISCUSSION WITH THE FORMER PRESIDENT ABOUT PAPERS THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES SAY SHOULD HAVE BEEN GIVEN TO THEM, TURNED OVER TO THEM RATHER THAN TAKEN TO THE PRESIDENT'S HOME. IF IT TURNS OUT THE FORMER PRESIDENT TOOK DOCUMENTS THAT SHOULD'VE BEEN TURNED OVER TO THE GOVERNMENT, WHAT SHOULD BE DONE ABOUT IT? GOV. HUTCHINSON: WE SHOULD MAKE THE EFFORTS TO RETRIEVE THOSE. PERHAPS THAT IS WHAT THIS IS ABOUT. GENERALLY, IT IS NOT DONE THROUGH A SEARCH WARRANT. THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO RETRIEVE DOCUMENTS THROUGH LEGAL PROCESSES. I THINK WHAT IS IMPORTANT HERE TOO IS THE PUBLIC IS NOT GOING TO GET TOO EXCITED IF THESE ARE ROUTINE DOCUMENTS IN THE WHITE HOUSE THAT THE PRESIDENT TOOK OUT IN VIOLATION OF THE PRESIDENTIAL DOCUMENTS ACT. WHAT WE WOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT IS IF THESE ARE CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS, IF THERE ARE DOCUMENTS THAT WOULD REALLY BE OFFENSIVE TO OUR NATIONAL

SECURITY. THIS IS A SERIOUS MATTER TO DO A SEARCH OF A FORMER PRESIDENT'S RESIDENCE, AND IT HAS TO BE JUSTIFIED EQUALLY SERIOUS CONDUCT. THAT IS THE VACUUM WE DON'T HAVE RIGHT NOW. JUDY: WE ARE SEEING TODAY A NUMBER OF THE PEOPLE CLOSE TO THE FOER PRESIDENT ARE SAYING THEY THINK THIS MOVE BY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WILL EXPEDITE HIS DECISION TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT AGAIN. DO YOU THINKE SHOULD RUN AGAIN? GOV. HUTCHINSON: NO, I DON'T THK HE SHOULD. BUT I ALSO, I AM A POLITICAL REALIST, THAT THIS IS THE KIND OF ACTION BY THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE THAT WITHOUT EXPLANATION IS GOING TO GIVE FUEL TO THOSE WHO SAY HE IS BEING PERSECUTED, HE IS BEING PICKED ON, AND THEY WILL COME TO HIS DEFENSE, AND IT COULD MOTIVATE HIM TO DO THAT. FAIRNESS IS WHAT WE HAVE TO HAVE IN THE JUSTICE SYSTEM. I WANT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO EXPLAIN WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE, GIVE THE AMERICAN PUBLIC

HOPEFULLY A SENSE THAT THIS IS BEING CONDUCTED TO SUPPORT THE RULE OF LAW AND FAIRLY. JUDY: FINALLY, YOU SAID YOURSELF IN MAY THAT YOU ARE MULLING THE IDEA OF RUNNING R PRESIDENT YOURSELF. THAT WAS IN MAY AND IT IS AUGUST. ARE YOU ANY CLOSER TO A DECISION? GOV. HUTCHINSON: NO, THAT WILL BE IN THE THINKING ABOUT STAGE UNTIL PROBABLY NEXT JANUARY. IT GOT TO GET THROUGH THE SELECTION AND WE WILL WAIT AND SEE HOW THAT DEVELOPS. WHENEVER I SAY I DON'T THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP SHOULD RUN AGAIN, OBVIOUSLY PEOPLE WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE COUNTRY HAVE TO GIVE IT THOUGHT, AS I AM. JUDY: GOVERNOR ASA HUTCHINSON OF ARKANSAS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. GOV. HUTCHINSON: THANK YOU, GOOD TO BE WITH YOU. JUDY: FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE, FORMER U.S. SENATOR FROM ALABAMA, DOUG JONES. HE SERVED AS THE U.S. ATTORNEY FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA UNDER PRESIDENCLINTON. VERY GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN. I THINK YOU PROBABLY JUST HEARD FROM GOVERNOR HUTCHINSON THAT HE

FEELS VERY STRONGLY IT IS NOW UP TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND THE FBI TO EXPLAIN WHY THEY CONDUCTED THIS SEARCH AT FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S HOME. MR. JONES: I THINK EVERYBODY WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT. AND I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT. I THINK EVYBODY WOULD ONE THING I WOULD THIS AGREE WITH IS -- WOULD DISAGREE WITH HIS THE AFFIDAVIT IS NOT PUBLIC. ONLY THE EXECUTION OF THE SEARCH WARRANT, WHICH IS NOT THE EVIDENCE GATHERED TO PUT IN FRONT OF A JUDGE. THAT IS WHAT IS UNDER SEAL. THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PIECE OF THE SEARCH WARRANT. IT IS UNDER SEAL, THE COMPILATION OF EVIDENCE BROUGHT TOGETHER TO SHOW A FEDERAL JUDGE, AN INDEPENDENT JUDGE, THAT PROBABLE CAUSE EXISTED TO BELIEVE A CRIME HAD BEEN COMMITTED AND EVIDENCE OF THAT CRIME WAS CONCEALED ON THAT PROPERTY. I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR AN EXPLANATION AND I WOULD LIKE TO SEE ONE, BUT I ALSO THINK THE PUBLIC DOES NOT WANT TO SEE ANY

CONSEQUENTIAL INVESTIGATION LIKE THIS JEOPARDIZED AND THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WILL HAVE TO MAKE ANOTHER SERIOUS DECISION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT MAKING PUBLIC OF THE AFFIDAVIT WOULD IN FACT COMPROMISE THE INVESTIGATION GOING FORWARD. I TRUST THEM TO MAKE THE RIGHT CALL. JUDY: DO YOU THINK THAT'S A DECISION THEY HAVE ALREADY MADE OR ARE THEY WEIGHING THAT RIGHT NOW? MR. JONES: I THINK THEY ARE INCLINED TO KEEP IT UNDER SEAL. THAT IS THE DEFAULT POSITION OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE. CIRCUMSTANCES CAN CHANGE AND THINGS CAN HAPPEN TO CAUSE THEM TO CHANGE THEIR MIND. PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LAWYERS MAY GO TO COURT AND SEEK THE UNSEALING OF THE AFFIDAVIT. PRESIDENT TRUMP LAWYERS SHOULD HAVE A COPY OF THE WARRANT ITSELF INTO THE INVENTORY OF WHAT WAS SEIZED. IF THERE IS A DESIRE TO MAKE IT PUBLIC, THEY CAN DO THAT THEMSELVES. WE WILL SEE HOW TH GOES. I THINK THERE WILL BE A CONSTANT

EVALUATION AT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AS WE GO FORWARD. JUDY: IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE WARRANT WAS SHOWN TO FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LAWYERS WHEN THEY SHOWED UP YESTERDAY AT MAR-A-LAGO WHILE THE SEARCH WAS TAKING PLACE. SENATOR JONES, WHAT ABOUT THE POINT THAT THIS IS SUCH A SERIOUS MATTER, TO GO INTO THE HOME AND SPEND SEVERAL HOURS GOING THROUGH THINGS THAT ARE THERE ARE THE FORMER PRESIDENT LIVES, AND TO GOVERNOR HUTCHINSON'S POINT, THE CREDIBILITY OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS ON THE LINE. PEOPLE FROM BOTH POLITICAL PARTIES ARE SAYING WE WANT TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON. MR. JONES: ABSOLUTELY. LOOK, I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANY QUESTION THAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES UNDERSTANDS THAT BETTER THAN ANYONE. ALL OF THOSE WITH HIM ON HIS STAFF UNDERSTAND THAT. BUT THEY'VE GOT TO MAKE THOSE DECISIONS. AND I DO THINK THIS IS A

DIFFERENT CASE. OBVIOUSLY I THINK THERE IS MUCH MORE THAT SHOULD AND NEEDS TO BECOME PUBLIC IF IT WILL NOT IN ANY WAY JEOPARDIZE THE INVESTIGATION. I THINK PEOPLE WANT TO SEE AN INDEPENDENT JUSTICE DEPARTMENT THAT WILL MAKE THE DECISIONS CONSISTENT WITH THE RULE OF LAW. THAT'S WHAT THEY'VE BEEN DOING. ALL ALONG, THEY HAVE BEEN DOING -- YOU HAVEN'T SEEN BUNCH OF LEAKS OUT OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, THEY'VE BEEN DOING THEIR WORK, THEY'VE BEEN TELLING PEOPLE TO BE PATIENT, THEY WILL CONTINUE TO DO THEIR WORK. AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME, THIS WILL BE MADE PUBLIC. THERE WILL BE MORE INFORMATION MADE PUBLIC, WHETHER IT IS THROUGH CHARGES OR THENSEALING OF THE AFFIDAVIT. BUT I TRUST THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO MOVE FORWARD. AGAIN, THIS IS A CONSEQUENTIAL INVESTIGATION AND IT HAS TO BE DONE T RIGHT WAY, NOT JUST IN A WAY IN WHICH THE PUBLIC, WHO HAS GOT ALL OF THEIR NEWS AT THEIR FINGERTIPS AND ONCE THE NEWS YESTERDAY, DEMAN. THEY HAVE TO DO IT THE RIGHT WAY.

JUDY: YOU ARE RIGHT THAT THE GENERAL IMPRESSION UP UNTIL NOW IS THAT THIS IS A JUSTICE DEPARTMENT THAT IS INDEPENDENT AND PLAYED ITS CARDS VERY CLOSE TO THE VEST. WE HAVE LEARNED VERY LITTLE. YOU KNOW HAVE REPUBLICANS IN PARTICULAR LOOKING AT IS AND SAYING HERE YOU GO, THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, THE JUSTICE SYSTEM, IN THE WORDS OF HOUSE MINORITY LEADER KEVIN MCCARTHY, HAVE BEEN WEAPONIZED TO GO AFTER PRESIDENT TRUMP. HOW DO THEY DISABUSE CRITICS OF THAT BEING THE CASE? MR. JONES: THEY WILL DO THAT EVENTUALLY WITH FACTS THAT WILL COME OUT IN THIS CASE, IF IT IS THE CASE. I BELIEVE THE FACTS WILL MERIT WHAT HAPPENED. WHAT IS INTERESTING, IT IS THE SAME REPUBLICANS WHO FOR THE LAST FEW MONTHS DURING THE JANUARY 6 COMMITTEE INVESTIGATION HAVE IGNORED ALL OF THE INCREDIBLE, COMPELLING EVIDENCE THAT HAS COME OUT AND INSTEAD SAID, LET'S LOOK AT INFLATION, LET'S TALK ABOUT GAS PRICES.

ALL OF A SUDDEN, WHEN THE HEAT GETS TURNED UP, INFLATION DOESN'T SEEM TO BE A BIG ISSUE. ALL OF A SUDDEN THEY WANT TO WEAPONIZE AT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT FOLLOWING THE RULE OF LAW IS. REMEMBER, AND THIS IS SO IMPORTANT FOR FOLKS TO REMEMBER -- THIS IS NOT JUST THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT. THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT COULD NOT HAVE EXECUTED THIS SEARCH WARRANT WITHOUT THE APPROVAL OF THE UNITED STATES JUDGE. PROBABLY A DISTRICT JUDGE, NOT A MAGISTRATE. PROBABLY A DISTRICT JUDGE. A THIRD BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT, THAT'S WHAT THE CHECKS AND BALANCES OF THE CONSTITUTION PROVIDES FOR. THIS IS NOT A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY OR BANANA REPUBLIC IN WHICH THE PRESIDENT OR RULING PARTY CAN GO IN AND CONDUCT A RAID. THEY HAVE TO PRESENT EVIDENCE OF PROBABLE CAUSE BEFORE A UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE. THE THIRD BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT. THERE IS A LOT OF DIFFERENCE. THEY CAN TALK ABOUT WEAPONIZING ALL THEY WANT, BUT THERE WAS A JUDGE AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHO SAT IN JUDGMENT OF WHAT WAS

PRESENTED AND SAID THERE IS ENOUGH EVIDENCE HERE THAT I WILL AUTHORIZE THE SEARCH OF THIS RESIDENCE. JUDY: FORMER U.S. SENATOR DOUG JONES OF ALABAMA, THANK YOU. MR. JONES: THANK YOU, JUDY. ♪ JUDY: THE UNITED STATES' TOP DIPLOMAT VISITED THE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF THE CONGO TODAY WHERE HE MET WITH THAT NATION'S PRESIDENT AND FOREIGN MINISTER. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN'S TRIP IS PART OF A FIVE-DAY TOUR ACROSS SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA TO UNVEIL THE ADNISTRATION'S NEW STRATEGY FOR THE REGION. AS NICK SCHIFRIN REPORTS, IT'S A CULMINATION OF A DIPLOMATIC AND HUMANITARIAN PUSH AT A TIME WHEN RUSSIA IS TRYING TO ENHANCE ITS OWN INFLUENCE IN AFRICA. NICK: THREE WEEKS AND AFRICA, THREE CABINET SECRETARIES. IN KENYA, SUFFERING FROM DROUGHT, USAID ADMINISTRATOR SAMANTHA POWELL.

>> WE ARE PUTTING FINANCIAL -- PROVIDING FINANCIAL SUPPORT TO OUR PARTNERS. >> AFRICANS HAVE THE RIGHT TO DECIDE THEIR FOREIGN POLICY POSITIONS. FREE OF PRESSURE OF MANIPULATION. NICK: AND IN SOUTH AFRICA, SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN. >> IS A MAJOR GEOPOLITICAL FORCE. NICK: NOT JUST AMERICANS. THE RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER ALSO RECENTLY LAUNCHED A CHARM OFFENSIVE ACROSS FOUR AFRICAN COUNTRIES IN EGYPT. RUSSIA PROVIDES MUCH OF THE CONTINENT'S FOOD AND IS AN ARMS SUPPLIER. NEARLY HALF OF AFRICAN COUNTRIES DO NOT CONDEMN RUSSIA'S INVASION OF UKRAINE. THE S. STRATEGY PRESENTS DIPLOMACY AND PARTNERSHIP. >> WHAT WE WILL DO WITH AFRICAN NATIONS, NOT FOR AFRICAN NATIONS.

NICK: TO DISCUSS U.S. AND RUSSIAN, AS WELL AS CHINESE EFFORTS TO GAIN STRONGER SWAY IN AFRICA, WE'RE JOINED BY KHOLOOD KHAIR, THE FOUNDING DIRECTOR OF CONFLUENCE ADVISORY, A THINK TANK IN SUDAN. AND CAMERON HUDSON, A SENI ASSOCIATE AT THE CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES, AND THE FORMER AFRICAN AFFAIRS DIRECTOR ON THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL STAFF FOR THE GEORGE W. BUSH ADMINISTRATION. WELCOME. LET'S LAY OUT U.S. STRATEGY THAT SECRETARY OF STATE BLINKEN LAID OUT. FIRST OF ALL, PROMOTING OPENNESS, AND IMPLICIT COUNTER TO CHINESE INFLUENCE, ADVOCATES FOR DEMOCRACY, WHICH HE SAID COUNTERS RUSSIAN INFLUENCE, FIGHTS COVID, AND TO LEAD A CLEAN ENERGY TRANSITION. WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT STRATEGY? KHOLOOD: ON PAPER, IT SOUNDS LIKE IT IS WHAT THE DOCTOR ORDERED, BUT I THINK THE U.S. STRATEGY SEEMS NOT IMPLEMENTABLE , GIVEN THERE ISN'T MUCH FUNDING AROUND IT SO FAR. EVEN WITH THIS RECENT SURGE OF HIGH-LEVEL OFFICIALS COMING TO

THE CONTINENT, IT IS STILL THE SAME TONE, I THINK OF CHARITY FIRST AND PARTNERSHIP SECOND. MY WORRY IS THE STRATEGY WILL JUST REPRODUCE THE SAME OLD DYNAMICS RATHER THAN BRING ABOUT GENUINE PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN THE U.S. AND VARIOUS AFRICAN NATIONS. NICK: SECRETARY BLINKEN SPECIFICALLY USED THE WORDS PARTNERSHIP AND TRY TO MAKE A POINT THAT THE U.S. WILL BE SEEING AFRICA AS AN IMPORTANT PLAYER ON EVERY MAJOR ASPECT FACING THE WORLD TODAY, AT LEAST WHAT HE SAYS. CAMERON: RIGHT, BUT THE PROBLEM IS SAYING IT DOESN'T MAKE IT SO. I THINK WE HAVE TO LOOK AT WHERE DECISIONS ARE BEING MADE AND WHETHER OR NOT AFRICAN VOICES ARE BEING INCLUDED IN THOSE DECISION ROOMS. WHETHER IT IS THE CHAMBER OF THE UN SECURITY COUNCIL OR THE EXECUTIVE BOARDROOM OF THE WORLD BANK OR FRANKLY BEHIND CLOSED DOORS AT A G7 SUMMIT WHERE JUST THIS LAST JUNE, G7 LEADERS DECIDED ON THE DEVASTATING AND CRIPPLING SANCTIONS CAMPAIGN

AGAINST RUSSIA THAT HAS SEVERELY IMPACTED AFRICANS'S ABILITY TO PURCHASE AND IMPORT GRAIN AND FERTILIZER FROM RUSSIA. WE ARE SEEING ALREADY IN THIS ADMINISTRATION AFRICANS NOT BEING INCLUDED WERE THOSE DECISIONS ARE BEING MADE. I LIKE THE IDEA THAT WE ARE GOING TO GIVE GREATER VOICE TO THE 54 COUNTRIES OF AFRICA, 1.4 BILLION PEOPLE, BUT RIGHT NOW WE ARE NOT SEEING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION LIVE UP TO THE PROMISE IT JUST YESTERDAY. NICK: LET'S LOOK AT RUSSIA'S INFLUENCE. HOW HAVE YOU SEEN RUSSIA FOCUS ITS INFLUENCE, ESPECIALLY ON THE AFRICAN UNION, AND IN PARTICULAR AFRICAN LEADERS? KHOLOOD: THIS IS WHERE RUSSIA'S A STRATEGY ON AFRICA SEEMS TO VARY SLIGHTLY FROM THE U.S. RUSSIA IS NOT INTERESTED IN ENGAGING ON ANY DOMESTIC POLICIES IN THIS COUNTRY IF THEY DON'T DIRECTLY IMPACT RUSSIA'S INTERESTS. FOR EXAMPLE, RUSSIA'S INFLUENCE

IN COUNTRIES LIKE SUDAN AND CENTRAL AFRICAN REPUBLIC, AND MALI AND BURKINA FASO, IS LINKED TO GOLD AND OTHER COMMODITIES THAT WILL HELP FUEL ITS WAR AGAINST UKRAINE. RUSSIA IS NOT INVESTED IN THE WORKINGS OF THOSE COUNTRIES. ANYTHING BEYOND HOW IT WILL IMPACT THOSE. IT IS CHERRY PICKING THE COUNTRIES IT FEELS WILL BE IMPORTANT, NOT LOOKING FOR A BROADER LEVEL OF INTEREST RELATED TO, FOR EXAMPLE, RULE OF LAW OR EVEN CHANGING SOME OF THE TRADING ELEMENTS AFRICA HAS WITH OTHER PARTNERS. IT IS AIMING FOR A LOT LESS. BY THAT TOKEN, IT C ACHIEVE A LOT MORE. NICK: AIMING FOR A LOT LESS BUT ALSO AIMING FOR MILITARY OR AT LEAST PARAMILITARY RELATIONSHIP. HOW HAS PRESSURE USED THE WAGONER GROUP? IT IS A PARAMILITARY GROUP, IT HAS USED TO EXPAND INFLUENCE IN MANY OF THOSE COUNTRIES JUST

MENTIONED. CAMERON: WHAT WE SEE ABOUT RUSSIA'S INVOLVEMENT HERE IS A KIND OF INSIDE, OUTSIDE APPROACH. IT IS APPROACHING THROUGH VISITS LIKE THE FOREIGN MINISTER, BUT IT ALSO USES THE WAGONER GROUP IN UNOFFICIAL CAPACITIES, WORKING WITH LEADERS ACROSS THE CONTINENT, WARLORD LEADERS, MILITIA LEADERS, LOOKING FOR A WAY IN. OFTEN TIMES THESE SIDE DEALS ARE SELF FINANCED BECAUSE WAGONER EARNS RIGHTS TO MINERAL EXTRACTION IN THE COUNTRY. WHAT RUSSIA HAS BEEN ABLE TO DO WITH WAGONER IS A PROP UP LEADERS IN THEIR ORBIT AND KEEP WESTERN INTERESTS AND VALUES AT BAY FOR A LITTLE LONGER. NICK: IT IS NOT JUST THE U.S. AND RUSSIA. CHINA HAS SPENT BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, ESPECIALLY ON AFRICAN INFRASTRUCTURE. HOW SUCCESSFUL HAVE CHINESE EFFORTS BEEN TO INCREASE ITS PRESENCE IN AFRICA BEEN? KHOLOOD: IT DOES NOT THINK ABOUT

FOUR TO FIVE YEAR ADMINISTRATIONS, IT CAN AFFORD TO BE MORE PATIENT THAN THE U.S. OR EVEN RUSSIA HAS BEEN, ESPECIALLY AFTER THE INVASION OF UKRAINE. FOR CHINA, IT IS SUCH A BROAD RANGE OF INVESTMENT IN INTERESTS ACROSS THE CONTINENT BUT THEY ARE PRAGMATIC ABOUT WHO THEY SUPPORT AND DON'TS. THIS SETS CHINA AND TO SOME EXTENT RUSSIA APART FROM THE U.S. IN THAT THEY DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE FAVORITES THAT THEY STICK BY THROUGH THICK AND THIN. THEY ARE MUCH MORE ABLE TO NAVIGATE CHANGES WITHIN THE CONTINENT AND MORE IMPORTANT, THEY KNOW WHEN TO STEP BACK, PARTICULARLY CHINA, AT TIMES OF FRAUGHT TENSIONS. NICK: TAKE US BACK TO ANTONY BLINKEN'S SPEECH. HE MADE A SPECIFIC POINT REPEATEDLY THAT THE U.S. IS NOT FORCING AFRICAN COUNTRIES TO CHOOSE BETWEEN THE U.S. AND CHINA OR U.S. AND RUSSIA, BUT RATHER PROVIDING A CHOICE. IS THAT WHAT THE U.S. DOING? CAMERON: I THINK THEY ARE PROVIDING A CHOICE SO LONG AS

THE CHOICES THE UNITED STATES. WHAT WE SAW IN SECRETARY BLINKEN'S SPEECH WAS NOT JUST PROVIDING CHOICE, IT WAS THE MAKING OF AN ARGUMENT AS TO WHY CHOOSING A RELATIONSHIP WITH WASHINGTON WOULD BE BENEFICIAL TO THE PEOPLE, THE LEADERSHIP AND THE CONTINENT AS A WHOLE. I THINK WHAT IS INTERESTING IS WE HAVE SEEN IN RECENT MONTHS AND YEARS T CHINESE AND THE RUSSIANS ADOPTING THE SAME SORT OF LANGUAGE OF PARTNERSHIP, OF TREATING AFRICANS AS EQUALS. RUSSIA AND CHINA BOTH PAINTING THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AS WHAT IT CALLS THIS GOLDEN BILLION, THE IDEA THAT THE DEVELOPED NORTH AND INDUSTRIALIZED NORTH OF WEALTHY COUNTRIES IS SOMEHOW CONTROLLING 90% OF THE WORLD'S RESOURCES AND ASSETS. REALLY PITTING AFRICA AGAINST WASHINGTON AND THE WEST AS THE SORT OF HAVE AND HAVE NOT, AND CONTINUING THAT DYNAMIC EVEN WITH THE RELEASE OF THE STRATEGY

TODAY. NICK: THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH. ♪ JUDY: A WORK OF IMAGINATION ASKS US TO SEE RACE IN A NEW WAY, FROM A NOVELIST ONCE AGAIN TAKING ON MAGICAL REALISM IN HIS FICTION. JEFFREY BROWN SITS DOWN WITH PAKISTANI WRITER MOHSIN HAMID FOR OUR ARTS AND CULTURE SERIES, "CANVAS." MOHSIN: ONE MORNING ANDERS, A WHITE MAN, WOKE UP TO FIND HE HAD TURNED A DEEP AND UNDENIABLE BROWN. JEFFREY: THE FIRST LINE OF MOHSIN HAMID'S NEW NOVEL, A PLAY ON FRANZ KAFKA'S FAMOUS FIRST LINE OF "THE METAMORPHOSIS": A MAN WAKES UP AS SOMETHING DIFFERENT. NOW, A DIRECT FOCUS ON RACE. MOHSIN: THE NOVEL REALLY BEGAN WITH THAT IDEA, OF A CHARACTER WAKING UP A DIFFERENT COLOR. JEFFREY: THAT WAS THE IMAGE THAT HIT YOU? MOHSIN: YEAH, IT WAS.

THERE WAS A NOTION THAT I HAD OF WANTING TO WRITE ABOUT RACE AND IDENTITY, AND IT HAD BEEN SITTING IN THE BACK OF MY MIND FOR MANY YEARS. BUT I NEEDED, I GUESS, A NOVELISTIC WAY INTO THE IDEA. JEFFREY: HE WOULD WRITE A KIND OF FABLE, WITH THE PROVOCATIVE TITLE, THE LAST WHITE MAN, IN WHICH PEOPLE IN AN UNNAMED PLACE BEGIN TO WAKE UP TRANSFORMED. MOHSIN: ONE THING THAT THE ARTS AND WRITING GETS TO DO IS TO REMIND US THAT WE'RE SORT OF MAKING UP THINGS AS WE GO ALONG, THAT REALITY ISN'T AS REAL AS WE MIGHT IMAGINE IT TO BE. AND THAT SOMETHING LIKE RACE, WHICH YOU MIGHT THINK OF AS AN ACTUAL OBJECTIVE REAL THING, IS AN IMAGINED PHENOMENON. AND BECAUSE IT'S IMAGINED, IT CAN BE RE-IMAGINED. THE BOOK IS ABOUT THE LOSS OF SOMETHING. JEFFREY: THE 51 YEAR OLD HAMID, WHOM I MET RECENTLY IN NEW YORK, HAS LIVED BETWEEN COUNTRIES AND CULTURES, WHAT HE REFERS TO AS A "HYBRIDIZED" LIFE -- BORN INTO A PUNJABI FAMILY IN LAHORE, PAKISTAN, HE SPENT PART OF HIS CHILDHOOD IN CALIFORNIA, WHERE

HIS FATHER STUDIED FOR A PHD AT STANFORD. HE LATER RETURNED TO THE U.S. TO ATTEND PRINCETON AND HARVARD LAW SCHOOL AND THEN WORKED IN NEW YORK AND LONDON, BEFORE TURNING FULL-TIME TO WRITING, BACK IN LAHORE. THE NEW NOVEL, HE SAYS, DATES BACK TO 9/11, AND HOW HE SAW HIS OWN PRIVILEGED PLACE CHANGE, LOSING WHAT HE NOW DESCRIBES AS A KIND OF PARTIAL WHITENESS THAT DEFINED HIM IN THE WORLD, EVEN AS A BROWN MAN. MOHSIN: IT WAS REALLY ONLY AFTER A MORNCWAY,HISAN TO ENCOUNTER NOTION THAT, YOU KNOW, I WAS SOMEONE SUSPICIOUS, I WAS SOMEBODY THREATENING, YOU KNOW, THAT I WOULD BE STOPPED AT THE AIRPORT OR STOPPED AT IMMIGRATION OR PEOPLE WOULD BEHAVE STRANGELY, YOU KNOW, IF I WALKED ONTO A SUBWAY CAR OR A BUS WITH A BACKPACK. AFTER 9/11 WHEN I WAS FORCED TO RECKON WITH A DIFFERENT STANDING, I WAS ALSO FORCED TO RECKON WITH THE FACT THAT I HADN'T PROPERLY RECKONED WITH IT UNTIL NOW. YOU KNOW, WHY DIDN'T I COME TO THIS REALIZATION WITHOUT IT BEING FORCED UPON ME?

JEFFREY: YOU WERE ENJOYING MANY OF THE BENEFITS OF GLOBAL CITIZENSHIP AND THE KIND OF ELITE POSITIONS. MOHSIN: EXACTLY. EXACTLY. SO I THINK THAT REALLY GOT ME THINKING HOW EASY IT IS TO SORT OF BE COMPLICIT IN SOMETHING. AND THEN TO BE FORCED TO GRAPPLE WITH IT WHEN YOU'RE UNABLE TO EASILY ACCESS THOSE BENEFITS. JEFFREY: IN DIFFERENT WAYS, HIS NOVELS AND OTHER WRITINGS HAVE GRAPPLED WITH THIS POST 9/11 WORLD. >> YOU PICKED A SIDE AFTER 9/11. I DIDN'T HAVE TO, IT WAS PICKED FOR ME. JEFFREY: THE RELUCTANT FUNDAMENTALIST, TURNED INTO A FILM DIRECTED BY MIRA NAIR, PORTRAYS A YOUNG PAKISTANI ON HIS WAY TO ACHIEVING THE AMERICAN DREAM, BECOMING RADICALIZED. THE CHARACTERS IN EXIT WEST WERE MIGRANTS WHO, WITH A BIT OF MAGICAL REALISM, PASSED THROUGH INVISIBLE "PORTALS" INTO NEW WORLDS. SO 9/11 CHANGED YOU AS A PERSON. IT CLEARLY CHANGED YOU AS A WRITER, AS WELL. MOHSIN: I BEGAN TO SEE SIMILARITIES IN DIFFERENT PLACES.

AND SO IT WASN'T JUST THAT IN AMERICA, FOR EXAMPLE, THIS NOTION OF MUSLIMS BEING SEEN AS A THREAT. THERE WAS ALSO IN PAKISTAN THE IDEA THAT, YOU KNOW, WESTERN IDEAS WERE POTENTIALLY A THREAT OR HAVING A PARTICULAR SECULAR OUTLOOK WAS SEEN AS A THREAT. AS I TRAVELED AROUND THE WORLD AND LIVED IN DIFFERENT PLACES, I CAME TO SEE THAT THIS KIND OF FETISHIZATION OF PURITY, OF THE "REAL" PEOPLE, WHETHER IT WAS HAPPENING IN MODI'S INDIA OR ERDOGAN'S TÜRKIYE OR PUTIN'S RUSSIA OR IN PAKISTAN OR IN AMERICA, WAS HAPPENING ALL OVER THE PLACE. THAT WE WERE INCREASINGLY SORTING OURSELVES INTO GROUPS AND THAT WE ARE INCREASINGLY PRONE TO THINKING THESE GROUPS ARE REAL AND THAT THEY ARE MEANINGFUL. JEFFREY: YOU STARTED THIS NEW NOVEL, A WHITE MAN WAKES UP TURNING BROWN. OTHER NOVELS TAKING ON ISSUES OF MIGRATION AND TERRORISM IN THE PAST. DO YOU WRITE FICTION WITH A PURPOSE? MOHSIN: I LIKE TO SPEND TIME IN MY IMAGINATION. BUT ALSO, THE WORLD BOTHERS ME.

AND IT ISN'T THE WAY I WOULD WISH IT TO BE. AND SO, THE SAME WAY THAT MY SON WILL WALK AROUND THE HOUSE PRETENDING TO BE A DINOSAUR AND HE'S A MIGHTY AND POWERFUL, YOU KNOW, T-REX INSTEAD OF A 10-YEAR-OLD BOY, I TRY IMAGINE THE WORLD DIFFERENTLY. AND THAT CAN BE A WORLD WHERE MIGRATION IS EASIER. IT CAN BE A WORLD WHERE IDEAS OF RACE ARE CHALLENGED. BUT ALL OF THESE THINGS, IN A WAY, FOR ME, ARE ABOUT MAKING THE WORLD MORE HOSPITABLE TO MY WAY OF BEING, I GUESS. JEFFREY: I DON'T WANT TO GIVE AWAY WHAT HAPPENS IN THIS FABLE OF YOURS, BUT YOU ARE TRYING TO SEE SOMETHING DIFFERENT, PERHAPS EVEN BETTER. YOU'RE COMPLETELY COMFORTABLE TACKLING THE BIG STUFF IN LIFE, IN FICTION. MOHSIN: YEAH. I THINK FICTION IS VERY IMPORTANT RIGHT NOW. WE NEED TO FIND WAYS TO TALK ABOUT THINGS THAT ALLOW EVERYBODY IN, THAT ISN'T DEPENDENT ON, YOU KNOW, ARE YOU FROM PAKISTAN OR AMERICA?

IS YOUR SKIN LIGHTER OR DARKER? ARE YOU MUSLIM OR CHRISTIAN BACKGROUND? AND THROUGHOUT HUMAN HISTORY, STORYTELLING HAS BEEN ONE OF THE PRIMARY WAYS WE'VE DONE THAT. AND SO I FEEL VERY MUCH PART OF THAT TRADITION. IT'S NOT SOMETHING NEW. I THINK IT'S WHAT WE HAVE STORYTELLING FOR, IN LARGE PART. JEFFREY: ALRIGHT, THE NEW NOVEL IS THE LAST WHITE MAN. MOHSIN HAMID, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. MOHSIN: THANK YOU. JUDY: ALLOWING EVERYBODY INCOME A GREAT IDEA. THAT IS "THE NEWSHOUR" FOR TONIGHT. I'M JUDY WOODRUFF. FOR ALL OF US AT "THE PBS NEWSHOUR," THANK YOU, PLEASE STAY SAFE AND WE'LL SEE YOU SOON. >> MAJOR FUNDING FOR "THE PBS NEWSHOUR" HAS BEEN PROVIDED BY >> ARCHITECT. BEEKEEPER. MENTOR. RAYMONDJAMES FINANCIAL ADVISOR TAILORS ADVICE TO HELP YOU LIVE YOUR LIFE. LIFE, WELL-PLANNED. ♪ >> CARNEGIE CORPORATION OF NEW YORK, SUPPORTING INNOVATIONS IN

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HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP. >>> THE LARGEST CLIMATE INVESTMENT IN U.S. HISTORY. I SPEAK TO FORMER REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN ABOUT ITS IMPACT AND HIS MISSION TO CONVINCE HIS PARTY TO CONFRONT CLIMATE CHANGE. >>> THEN ANOTHER HEAT WAVE HITS EUROPE AS FOREST FIRES DRIVE CARBON EMISSIONS TO RECORD LEVELS. A CLIMATE SCIENTIST CONNECTS THE DOTS BETWEEN RISING TEMPERATURES AND EXTREME WEATHER. >>> AND A REAL RISK OF NUCLEAR DISASTER. THE WORLD'S NUCLEAR WATCH DOG SOUNDS THE ALARM AFTER CONTINUED RUSSIAN SHELLING IN UKRAINE THREATENS EUROPE'S LARGEST