Woman; Women in Policing

Oh. Good evening and welcome to woman Our topic tonight is women and policing. With me tonight is Margaret. Margaret is an attorney. She is co-founder and co-director of the Center for Women Policy Studies in Washington DC. Margaret is also an adjunct professor of law at Georgetown

University Law Center. Also with me is Catherine Catherine is assistant director of the Police Foundation in Washington D.C. She is the author of two books. Women and policing and team policing. Welcome to both of you. Thank you. How many police officers in the United States are women. There are no exact figures now but the estimate is around 5 percent of the police officers are now women. There are probably around 2000 women who are on patrol around the country which doesn't sound like a lot but it certainly is a lot when you compare it with just five years ago. We think there are only about seven men. So a lot of changes. Catherine what got you into this subject I mean why did you become interested women in policing. Well I first made a career change phone from journalism into the police area generally and then from there into the women area I got interested in the police area back in the 60s largely

by observing the way police handle demonstrations and thought that actually the way they're handling them wasn't as well as they could be and thought well and sort of criticizing the way she got involved in trying to make some positive changes and this far getting interested in women that came home very slowly I realized after having been involved the police here for about two years. That there were no other women around I go to meetings and I've been the only woman there a hundred men and me are I go to police departments and I would see you know a few secretaries but they would be knowing the name of the meeting said I went to. So I began slowly to come aware of the fact that it was really a man's field entirely. I think the thing that really sort of made me aware of this was when a visiting police chief from England sort of scolded me. He said he just made a tour of the US she said women were not being used at all in this country and that I was involved with Philo do something about it.

So I sat down and started writing a book. That's how I got involved. Margaret what about you. Well about the time that Kathy was doing that I was just getting out of law school which of course is another area where one doesn't see a lot of women. And I was very impressed with that fact and I had decided that I would like to work in the area of the law as it affects women. And I met Catherine. And she asked me to work for the Police Foundation as a consultant to produce. A kind of overview of the law employment law which might impact on the opportunities which women have. To be police officers. And that was nineteen seventy one. And there really was very little law that could could be used in that context there was the 14th Amendment which had been used to guarantee other classes of people equal employment rights. But it hadn't at that time been notably successful and guaranteeing women employment rights. But the very next year as Katherine's book was going to press with with my legal analysis in it the

law began to change rather rapidly in the spring. Title 7. Of the Civil Rights Act was amended to cover. Him employment in the public field. That is the cities and counties and states and. And that of course brought the whole area of policing under under the cover of that law which which generally prohibits sex discrimination as well as other kinds of discrimination and all kinds of conditions of employment. And that made it possible for any woman who was turned down for a job. As a police officer to bring a suit. And then later in the year. Other acts were passed the omnibus crime bill which included a non. Discrimination. Clause which meant that. That all the monies that are given out by the law enforcement assistance administration. Are conditioned upon nondiscriminatory behavior on the part of the grantees and also the

federal revenue sharing. Act. Which provides federal money to state and county governments. And which also contained a non discriminatory. Provision. And those last two acts said that any any police department being specific but. In the instance of a police department if there were if. Discrimination was. Was proved that federal monies could be withdrawn are or held up which is a which is a pretty important sanction. Is this the first time in the history of this country that those laws were enacted to help effect that there was any kind of legislation or little control in the situation. That's right and it all happened within a very short time span. And how would you describe the traditional roles of women in policing. Up until the changes began to happen. Well traditionally most of the women there are very few of them and it's the first thing that's important to point out they're probably less than 1 percent in most police departments. And was that because women were

interested you know knowing there were quote us. I mean there were laws actually written into city charters into budgets. Saying that there only could be a woman for juvenile work and then there were a few women for secretarial jobs clerical jobs and the philosophy behind all that was well if you're going to have to hire a woman you hire her for something that she can do better than a man. And it's really time to hire women and of course things that women were considered to do better than men were typing filing and searching dead bodies of other women. And working with young children and going to work. And those were things to categories. Now there were some exceptions and you you know can go back and find pictures and usually during the war here so when the manpower here was rather limited because men were overseas you find pictures of women directing traffic and women and few women on patrol with. Those were real exceptions and I think the majority were. Definitely other categories.

What is the Police Foundation discovered I know you did a study of several United States cities and the situation in each city what was that of the things that you file that you were startled by. Well the thing that startled me the most was to see the fact that it was first of all how few women there were in departments but then to see the fact that there were few women was an accidental thing. I mean it really was discrimination and it was very well thought out. That there were. Going to be women on the departments and I think that throughout the years that still stay with me is something which is startling. But we did find you know a number of years ago that there were women in a number of cities like Peoria. There were some women on patrol in Peoria. Same as in Miami there were a few there. There were women. Doing real detective work in New York and Washington. So you could find examples around the country in another country saying Israel the women were directing

traffic and they become worldwide famous so that you know a number of years ago that was very. Startling information. I think the main thing is that the foundation has contributed to the field. Harvard's been a study in Washington D.C. which was very scientifically designed and very scientifically conducted women on patrol and we compared 100 women with 100 men who all had similar backgrounds some experience and over your period we looked at them from every possible standpoint how they were performing. In the conclusion of the authors was that they mean there was no significant difference in terms of all the performance measurements and the way men and women. It's patrol women on patrol the core issue do you think at this point is this what all the controversy is about. You know I think it is because because women have been precluded from the patrol function they have not been able to advance through the normal Iraqi police work. For example some of the

early cases were brought by women in New York City who wanted to take the test to become sergeants. But the reason that they couldn't was that although they had been with the force. The requisite number of years they there is a prerequisite to taking that examination was. Having. Done patrol work and since they hadn't they were for say You know what you will. And that's been a very big obstacle. You know one of the thing I went as a patrol work was. The most visibly dangerous work in the eyes of most people. I don't think that is in fact the case a lot of the undercover work can be much more dangerous. They've used women I forgot to mention before women were traditionally also used as decoys you know they were sent out in St.. You know. Too long hopefully attract someone so they'd want to be right. And oftentimes these women would be sent out and they would be secretaries and they were put out in these situations which are very dangerous situations much more dangerous than in fact. What meets the

average officer out on patrol. But I think that the public's image and placed him in just a patrol as a ferry changes occupation and it's like it is on TV when in fact the studies will show that that which is just totally out of line with the real reality. It's all very boring to me. I think the danger is she was one of the more maddening ones because as Catherine said all law enforcement agencies especially ones like the FBI have always used women in undercover work which is extremely dangerous but when they were confronted with why they wouldn't hire women as agents for example. With all the kinds of benefits career benefits and so forth that that. Pertain to that kind of job they said well when women can't do that kind of work and one of the reasons that they couldn't do it was that it was too dangerous. You know that whole issue of danger. You hear it from both sides. The main thing you'll hear is oh it's too dangerous I wouldn't want my wife to do that I would want my daughter oh my goodness. And then on the other side you hear the men complain. Well five

women patrol car to protect her I won't be able to worry about my own safety. Those are real issues that any place minister was going to introduce women into the field to be aware of and know how to deal with. I think there are ways of dealing with. I think one good example. I remember hearing a number of years ago well you troll just watch the first one get shot and then they're all be pulled back in and that will be the end of the women emplacing movement that happened recently. You know Washington in Washington but in fact. It was a very tragic thing. But the reaction from the both us to the sense and from the police officers was that I was it was a tragic thing that happens to men. It happens just as well as women. It's certain kind of thing that anyone who signs up to be a police officer has to. Expect might happen to them and that. Perhaps she contributed to the situation. You know that led to her death but that the mistakes that she made were rookie mistakes

and not mistakes that were lost as a result of her being a woman. And the reaction of the field has been really well OK a woman you know has been killed and now in a way they've paid their dues and they were almost more accepted. I think particularly by some of the police chiefs who you know who are opposed to the idea beforehand once they saw that a woman you know was willing to give her life for you know was you know in the women didn't resign en masse and there wasn't any great you know sort of panic of pulling force when one of the arguments that I've heard is that women don't want it anyway and so why all this screaming with. Seems to be evidence to the contrary. I think that yes there are many women who very much want police work and some of them are finding it now. But. But however few they may be I think the point is and from the point of view of the law and the whole equal rights

movement is that however few women want to be police officers they shouldn't be precluded simply because they are women I think that's the real underlying principle of all that. And I would say that the very fact of the many lawsuits that we have seen in the last few years many waiting lists that you see around the country I think the evidence is quite the contrary women want the job got waiting lists and many cities particularly now with the recession ending it's a good paying job. There's a lot of security. It's a good job. But another thing we hear is that women are not aggressive by nature. And therefore they can't possibly make good police officers. I think there are two points there I really dislike hearing people say that men or women are more or less aggressive because I think the thing to concentrate on is the individual person. Many many men are less aggressive than many women. But if you the next question is whether being aggressive is

is but is a quality that's that isn't very important to police work and that my you know I think one thing we found in our Washington study that the only difference that we found statistically between the way that women and men performed is that the women did make fewer arrests and gave fewer moving traffic violations. And the reaction from some police chiefs would biase I tell just they don't want women around they're not aggressive enough and I want a real aggressive officer. But then some other police issues would say yes but then you look at the fact that the women also didn't get as many citizen complaints. Many fewer charges of brutality. I've injuring other people so that I think that there are two sides to one and I have one story that was told me by a place woman where she was handling a situation which was a street fight. She came on the scene there was a man who was drunk and she talked to him and got a friend called friend from the crowd said hey take him home and have him dry off and she was going away from the scene. And meanwhile a police

man is driving by and he observes people yelling observes the woman in the midst of a crowd he runs out he's got protector you know any first thing up against a wall everybody. And for you know you had a real fight. And there were a number of people injured as a result he had four arrests I want terms of records here. You know he came out looking good in terms of a measurement of aggressiveness. But I think that it's very important in in place work like other things to sort of use some. Judgment in terms of what's actually the right way to be annulling the job it's not. Force it's not necessarily the best way of. Handling a situation. What recourse does someone have. Now who's interested in and getting into police work. And seems to be having trouble and exactly how does the law. Well there are several laws involved but the basic principles are that a person can't be precluded from being considered for a job simply because of the person's sex. And of course that that doesn't mean that

they don't have to compete with a priest with respect to to the other requirement but to and this has not only to do with hiring but also promotion and all of the other conditions of employment so that if a person feels that. In this instance she has been denied consideration for a job because of her sex that she has. There are several possibilities of action which she can take. One of them is to file a complaint with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission which which administers Title 7 and which eventually would investigate and find out whether the allegations that she's making are true and could issue her a letter which would permit her to file a suit against the police department. Obviously there are a lot of problems with that because I could file a suit. You need a lawyer and lawyers are expensive and there are some women's rights public really funded groups which can bring suits like this and some other public interest groups which can do it but but basically that's a hard thing to do.

The Justice Department. Under the law they also bring a pattern and practice suits against police department which they find after investigating. I have a a practice of PRI of not considering certain groups of people women being among them for jobs. Another thing which can be done under the revenue sharing act is to file a complaint saying that. Saying basically I've been discriminated against in employment because I want to. And. The government the federal government would investigate and there was the possibility that that if they found this to be the case that they might withhold. Funds from the department who was found to be discriminating. And I think I've also heard of examples of women who are right. The mayor or someone on the city council on an I think if they can get someone in a position of authority to. Take up their their cause and to look into the issue that that there have been some cities which have made some changes but I think as

more as you point out it's a long road and it's very hard on an individual woman who's kept or limited the quote in your book that it's better for the department to do to enforce itself rather than to have someone from the OUT SOMEONE FIND IT. I'd say for two reasons one is a more recent I mean police departments are supposed to be models of law and order and they better start at home following the law. OK so I'd say that that's certainly the most important reason why they should do it. But beyond that if they can make the kind of changes which they have to make and order to include women kind of changes in their selection procedures in their brochures and their training. They can do it on their own and they can do it at their own pace and they will have time to introduce a change. Time to make adjustments along the line in the cities that have done it that way. Very few problems very few problems at all. What we find now is that departments are being ordered by court. In Detroit for example. This one you know has one woman for every man who was hired and I think that that puts the department in a

position where they no longer have a choice and often times have to do it on in a certain timeframe. So the scuttling that goes around in terms of making again the kind of changes uniform some departments have no uniforms for women on patrol work and if you have to make a lot of changes like that in a real hurry it's just going to create chaos. And I think we set it. And make it harder for the men who are going to have to work with the women as well as for the women coming on. I always advise women's groups who are interested in. And opening up this field of work for women too. To try to go about it short of causing trouble for the police department pressure sometimes is necessary but as Catherine suggested there are often ways through the political process or just through working with the police force to accomplish this without hauling them into court. And that's expensive on both sides and I think it's absolutely the last resort. Sometimes you have to take that last resort or try other cities were nothing when it

changed. Without the core order what about the training procedure and the requirements the entrance requirements are those. Incredibly different. For men and for women. Well the whole point of that. You know what I would call equal standards is that there would not be differences. But traditionally there have been differences in the selection standards you would have. The height being much lower for women than for men in some places five foot two for women you know five foot eight five foot nine. Again that's changing because of regulations saying that it not only discriminates against women against short men but certain. Racial minority groups that there's discrimination there so you're finding some cities like New York which has dropped its height requirement Washington which it has it fine I think you know that's one change that they have made in terms of education used to have many departments which require college education for the women and high school for the men

on the theory that we're going to hire two out of you know 2000 who apply assuming that the cream of the crop Why not. Again that is you know that is now. Considered discriminatory and you can't do it for the women which to men. And underlying that is the fact that. Under. Under the law. The employer has to show that there is some relationship between whatever they require of the entrance requirement is and the job to be done and since you're really it's very difficult to show a relationship between the height that a particular officer and the ability to do anything that an officer does. Many. Well most departments are going to have to drop that requirement I think this is the way the law is going and a similar situation exists with respect to other kinds of physical tests its. Physical agility test they're called how fast you can run how much you can lift and that sort of thing. And those test tend to knock out a disproportionate number of women and

those partners are having a hard time validating them that is showing that there's a relationship between that test and the kinds of things that that officer is going to have to do. Didn't somebody do a study on top policeman. And discovered that there was absolutely no difference. You know I read a number of studies there were that there's one in your book that I mean you know there are a number of studies done and I think that it's it's safe to say that there is no relationship that you can demonstrate between high and. Job performance Now one thing that makes it difficult to to know what will happen when you have very short people on the force is you don't have any to touch them. You know. You have a short one on but you don't have very many departments. You have a lot of short men you know five. Men out there all of those you know walk around the streets of Washington. And I'm about 5 8 and I look down at the men you know like oh why are there so that is happening.

But statistically you know we've just done a very extensive review of everything in. You can't you can't make an argument. Other things that you feel that women can't do better. Well I want one thing that Catherine and I both been interested in is the whole question of how the criminal justice system deals with rape victims for example and many women's groups have felt that there should be enough women on any given police force so that when a rape victim shows up she has the choice of. Being interviewed by a woman officer. Now I think we both we would agree that that's that that is important. On the other hand we must admit that there also haven't been any studies. Yet which show that I woman officer is more responsive to a rape victim than a male officer or that or even that a rape victim would rather talk to a woman than a man. So although Catherine and the Police Foundation this is doing some research on you on those questions in New

York now so perhaps we will know you know. I think maybe there's a basic principle that's involved and it's just principle which people now can accept for minorities which is that a police department is probably going to be better if it's more reflective of the population that it serves. I think most people would agree now that a police department which is serving a city which is first say 60 percent black is probably going to be better if it has you know a percentage. Close to that on the force or of let's say more than 5 percent black is just going to be able to deal with the people that it serves and I think the same principle holds true for women and many little different ways. You'll find that I think the population both men and women we've done extensive surveys of this do like the fact that there is some variety that you can have some options I think the rape victim is certainly the most obvious but I think that there are

other victims other. Criminals everywhere you know I think there are a whole range of people who like you know to have some options. I know one group that isn't particularly happy about the Alps and there with the policeman's wife seem to be very vocal against women especially on patrol. Yeah. Well. I think that. That is partly an issue that the media has blown up. I mean I think you know a couple of policeman's wives get out and protest and get their signs together before you know it's on the front page and in the news that evening but I I do think that the issue there is one that. Really comes down to worry about sex I think that I talk to some of the wives I talk to some of the husbands and oftentimes you hear Well it's a gift an issue of safety. You know their wives are worried about their safety or their Houseman's. I think if you get another major issue. You never hear women complaining that their husbands who are attorneys or doctors

are. Not to have women as nurses and Secretary my complain to any demonstrating about it and nobody would pay attention. But the same situation an underlying problem. Do you think it's going to be 10 seconds before most people are going to accept police officers who are women. I think. Majority the public does accept. You know. I agree. Thank you both for being here. Thank you for watching. And good night. A. Reduction in funding provided by public television stations Foundation and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.