Woman; 347; Women's Pages

Why. Why. Changing. Good evening and welcome to woman. We're going to continue to look at the image of women in the

media. Tonight women's pages. With me is Barbara Hinton. Barbara has been a newspaper woman for 20 years 10 of those years were spent as an editor of the women's pages most recently for the Las Vegas Review Journal. Also here is Judy Clements root a journalist who's had many articles published in magazines such as Esquire McCall's New York Magazine and many others. Judy is the woman's page reporter for The New York Times. Welcome to both of you. Do you object to the term women's pages. I know that's hardly ever used anymore and most newspapers are changing the title of a women's page. I don't object because that's what it is. I don't object because that is such a far cry from what I'm usually called a society editor and that's really how women's pages began really they were society pages. And when someone says society editor it incenses me a little bit because I'm so much more than that. I feel I am a women's news editor but that's also evolving too into other things.

Why do you think the change was made from society and just some of the more slightly serious things the women's movement mainly and the reaction of the editors to complaints from feminists. I feel that it might have even started before the feminist movement just by by women who want to think and be educated housewives who get tired of not knowing anything. I really feel that there was a movement brought on even before the official feminist movement started. When do you think that the pages for stirred to change then. Betty Friedan founded now in 1966 I don't think they start to change until but I think that's true. There was no drastic change until that time but it certainly wasn't because of a great hue and cry from women and women who were reading these pages was it. Right that's a little bit difficult to answer really because it's always hard to say what results from from the general public or what comes from the women's news editors themselves with ideas you know. It's really a very difficult thing to say well if an editor of Women's pages you know

most of the last 10 years although you've gotten out of the newspaper business recently let me ask you first why you did that. Well there are various reasons why you get out of a field. But one of the reasons is because of the very low pay newspapers are traditionally low in pay and many people pay to go into journalism because they know that it's going to be a low paying field. But the women's news sections I think Judy will probably agree with me on this are notoriously low paying in comparison with even the rest of the paper. Are there different kinds of people out there. Difference in the quality of people who work on the women's pages. I doubt to charge that you know is often made that reporters are not quite as sharp. If there are even reporters I know that it's people say that women's pages are the dumping grounds for the older reporters the neurotics the neer do wells the complainer. That's what you hear in the business. It's also interesting someone told me I read somewhere that the women's

section is always in the back of the building and in the newspaper is that true at the time I was way out in the very back at the time and I was lost in the center somewhere. But I feel that the. The quality of reporters depends on the editor who chooses her own help. And of course the pay scale there is lower so you have to take what you can get for the pay scale but I have found some fairly decent applicants over the years and there have to be reporters in these pages or are they just you know fashion type people you know they are reporters the ones that I have have picked have been reporters they have been journalism graduates. When you first started Judy did you want to be on the women's pages. When I first started I was at the Chicago Daily News and I was a general assignment reporter for four years. Then I came to the times I was hired as a women's page reporter and I hope that as soon as possible I'd get off the women's page and become a city desk reporter as it was in Chicago but being there there are many good things about working for a women's

page your stories are much longer the way you write you have much more freedom. Your layouts are much bigger you get maybe eight columns spread with a lot of pictures and you grow to like that. I think it's more satisfying writing in this city that is more positive more positive approaches and most any subject the first few pages of the paper always dwell on the latest murders rapes and robberies and so on. And this seems to be what it's all about until you look in the inside and find the woman's page where they give you more of a scientific and more usually a positive approach on a given topic such as sex therapy marriage counseling childbirth et cetera et cetera it's really I think a more positive thing is let's talk about some of the changes that the women's pages have gone to. First Civil cold women's pages ending with a family style or something like that. Do you think the changes are cosmetic that charge has been made that the changes that have been made so far are purely cosmetic and they're not really substantive.

Oh I don't believe so I think they have definite substance for instance. When I first worked in Illinois in the Champaign-Urbana courier I was going to college and working and then after college also our whole section dwelled on the description of a bridal gown on any given bride and the hole's of the entire section was devoted to brides and engagements and the latest social happenings. And now we're were on so many varied subjects and given to all sorts of things really. And it's not just food fashion and fun as we like to say sometimes it but it is really educational. Don't you agree with that. Yes I agree that the changes are substantive but I think the big changes came between 69 and 73 and that now most of the women's pages that I read and study are reverting a little bit and going back to the old traditional ways. That's because some of the stories we pioneered in like lesbian mothers homosexuals marriages sex therapy have been taken off our pages and put in the run of the paper in

the new sections and now the women's pages are going back to being consumer oriented and service oriented you know where is the news and where editors are stealing our stuff right. Right. This is true because we made such a big splash when we pioneered in these areas and now the other editors are taking away from this. Do you think that some editors see the women's page just sort of an adjunct of advertising. Yeah I mean it seems sometimes to me to pick up a woman's page and it seems like the content almost you know enhances the advertising or is certainly compatible with the advertising. Well it's that's quite true in fact in some newspapers the advertising is so first and foremost that the advertising departments and you release is to put in about their clientele and they must be put in but of course they don't tell you exactly how much to put in or anything you can edit it down. This type of thing. But it is. As you say somewhat advertised. So what choice do you have as an editor I mean what to do with that material. I mean do you bury it if you don't use a symbol because it's not

really what you want to say beneficial news to your readership. It's a woman's editor a little resentful I think to have to use this kind of thing when you see all this good news material going by the wayside. You don't have the space for it. Every ties NG has become first and foremost in every newspaper because of course they must make money and now they've gone from what used to be almost in any newspaper a single pyramid advertisement a poinsettia page. Now it goes up both sides of the pages quite frequently and takes up so much editorial space that you well for instance over the last few months my new space had gone down on Sundays from 200 inches to eight or 900 inches per Sunday and that's a lot that's a big deficit. You knew space is that the only way the economic crunch has really affected the women's pages. I mean there are people from the women's pages first fired over is that is that the first place where cuts are made. Quite frequently this is true yes. They're trying to combine departments in a lot of newspapers.

It's the first place where the advertising department stores the tamper too. Yes this is true. They put the ads on the other pages and in less than the inches for the women's pages it's true to talk a little bit how the women's page from The Times has changed since since you've been there. Changes that you're aware of. I came in sixty six and about in 1968 we started to go into the serious subjects that women's pages hadn't really gone into before the lifestyles the sex stories. And then in 73 I noticed the change back that I mentioned going back towards more consumer type stories as the other departments took away the stories that we had once done. Judith Were you hired to do these controversies. No I was I was hired to go along with what had been done but the times change remember that was the Democratic convention. The times were changing and everybody was experimenting with new lifestyles and somebody had to cover it in the women's pages started doing that.

Well you know part of the fold in in these changes sometimes lies in the women themselves that read the pages. For instance when I first came to or went to Las Vegas from California in 1973. The first six months was utterly miserable because the women would not accept the change in the section that was making their women readers women readers. Yes they were used to the more social type of selection. So how did they make this knowing that they didn't like what you were doing. They would call or send a few letters this kind of thing. And so I was called in and asked to sort of draw back a little bit in go back to some of the old ways more weddings more engagements more social news and more chit chat type of thing. And at least for a while until they got used to this new lifestyle section which we call life today. And then I found a gradual acceptance Prete people are always hesitant to accept change as you know. Well no and anything. And as they began to accept this then they got excited about it they really did. And I started

getting many many letters of congratulation and assembly women. Many important women throughout the state began calling me and writing to me and telling me that they really did enjoy the change in certainly have been so far more over the last year or so even. What are some changes that you would have liked to have made that you couldn't I mean would you like to get rid of all the engagement pictures. Yes. I frankly would because they dig up a lot of space I wouldn't mind using a little writing space to announce an engagement or a forthcoming date for marriage or something. But it's so unnecessary to put an engagement picture in and then six weeks later or two months later put a picture of the bride in or the bride and groom in it's a repetitious type of thing that really should be done away with I think. Is there any chance of that happening or is there a move toward that on many of the larger papers yes. Not as long as the publisher has friends. So you think the pressure to do that really doesn't come from the readership I think. Well I think the executives this was status seeking

rightly come from Status seeking editors too. Who want their friends daughters to be in the paper more paper when they get engaged married. For instance I will cite an example of a policy which I made when I went there that no couple could have their picture in unless they had been married 50 years or more as far as anniversaries are concerned. And as Judy said I had a couple requests from editors and publishers over me to put in pictures of friends of theirs who were married only 35 years or something like this because they wanted to give him special recognition. And once you set a policy you really can't do this for friends like I couldn't do it for my friends and feel right about it. So you're both from papers in different parts of the country and you're sort of west. Judy you're very Eastern a stylish New York Times. What are the issues do you think there's a difference between what the women in Las Vegas and in the West are interested in and the women who read The New York Times. I mean you're covering different things than The Times is covering for women.

The Times of course I'd like to assume that the women who read our page are quite intelligent whether or not that's the case I don't know. Probably they're a little more intelligent than women the last Vegas over but could be a very elitist thing for me to say I don't know. Well I I think that's a little presumptuous in a way Judy but we have quite a few intelligent women in Las Vegas also. It's it is true that we probably have you know the Showgirl element the cocktail waitress element and so on although you'll find that many girls who are cocktail waitresses are very intelligent they're making six or seven hundred dollars a week to get me to death more than I made. But nevertheless I think the level of intelligence across the country does not say what they're interested in is simply that there are different interests. You're more far more interested in the feminist movement on the two coasts than we are inland for some reason don't ask me why I can't say why. But the coastal regions are always the first to bring forth any Fed or any a new thing. And then it moves inland from there. That sort of across the board doesn't

necessarily you know having to do with the women's But we know that's any Indian OPIC I'm talking about. Fashions are the same way anything as long as you brought up fashion it's what about fashions I mean do you. Are you really convinced that the amount of space that is devoted to fashion reflects the amount of interest in the reading writing it all down the space in my pages from fashion when I started editing it for the. Last newspaper I worked for I found that women can well do without that as long as they get a little hint of what's going on they're satisfied with that and I do feel it's a waste of space to put in the huge pictures the large amount of copy on the fashion changes because they're just not interested in a game where they're too casual now. Men are too. I agree but the New York is the fashion industry and I think perhaps it can be justified to give a little bit more fashion coverage in The New York Times for that reason but I frankly don't think women really care that much anymore about fashion. Well they always care about things like Mr. Blackwell's list of worst dressed you know the controversy of things in fashion or something you know. Defn new change that's come about which they either

approve or disapprove of this kind of thing but aside from that they're not interested in blue and green being popular 10 years ago versus the camel now or something like that they're not nearly as interested as they used to be. I think they have more time to dwell on more deep subjects than this or something that is making time to do them. What do you think are the issues and do you think they are the issues of the women's movement that people are most interested in if you could create you know in your fantasies a page and what would be on it. Definitely. The e are a passage throughout the United States is one of the top issues in my part of the country what about yours. Alimony equal work for equal pay. Because this is one job discrimination often. So it really kind of boils down to practical advice to us and economy I think you know there are things that you know when pages aren't doing that it seems that seems to me they could be doing it seems to me also that Ralph Nader

is doing some things that could be done on the women's pages his investigations of consumer issues. And why isn't that kind of thing happening I mean sure that's getting reported but it's usually reported in another part of the newspaper and that's because of the wear editorship more than it is anything else. The worry editors on the given papers do not filter this to the women's pages you see and they're the ones that pass out the information. And I'm the New York Times our consumer reporter is a woman named Crassus Sarah. She does not work right for the women's page she writes for the Metropolitan to the general news side. So that means our editors regard consumerism as general news rather than as a women's page story. I mean if you want to do a piece you probably couldn't do it probably because France Sarah has the knowledge in that field and she should do it. So much consumer things go to France where all the people in the women's page have done consumer pieces. They don't do them as much as friend Sarah. Which brings up another really interesting story of something that you were talking about advertising

versus editorial. We did a very thorough survey in our our city on the supermarkets and the ones who were higher priced versus the quality of the food that they put out in the quantity and so on. And this story was written we were refused printing of the story by the top editors because these were major advertisers on our food pages we have a large food section on Wednesdays and we couldn't print the story because it would go against our advertisers in other words or against some of them because it would make others heroes. So I put this in this way you see you are withholding news that probably should be printed in these times a week of bad economy. You know it's hard to criticize the newspapers because they are in very bad economic shape. But on the other hand you sometimes wish they were a little bit less timid about doing things. If you are trying to do something and been stopped.

I once did a piece on bisexuality that the editors decided that wasn't quite the subject for the women's page and I then sold it to New York magazine. I've had a couple things in controversy over that. Another reporter once did a story rating the women's restrooms in New York you know giving them stars and then the editors decided that wasn't quite the subject for the women's page and she also sold that to New York magazine. So there are certain subjects that editors decided just don't work on the women's page and magazines will treat with more open mindedness Yes. Is that the only recourse you have I mean it seems to me it's very difficult but it was hard to find someone to come in and do this show in a sense because we wanted a working newspaper woman and yet to really say what you'd like to say. You're really in danger of losing your job in a sense. That's very true. I'm glad that you were able to fathom that. That is something else you can be a housewife. They will find they were

phasing in the coverage of International Women's Year. There was a lot of criticism about that. A lot of people felt that it was emphasizing all the negative things that happened some of the rifts there. And that it wasn't fair reporting at all. And I know you covered it for the times. How do you feel about that. I think I'm very proud of the way the Times let myself and James Thurber who is the other reporter assigned to cover it they give it front page coverage almost every day. They ran every story we wrote although the editors took out some of the more colorful phrases that's the only complaint I had editing out a few words here and there. We had complete freedom to report that the way we wanted to. And I was surprised at the amount of times they put the stories on the front page. Yeah that's true it was front page coverage. What did you do about it. Not too much. In fact I was surprised at the. The poor play that it got in our section of the country considering we were closer in everything. But I never received much over

my desk from the where editor on this. So it wasn't your decision to you know it wasn't and it was very it was under played quite a lot of course. I don't think there was anything really major that was decisive things that came out of that conference anyway. I think you probably agree with that. Yeah I mean you were there and you called there were a lot of women there and it was there was a large display of feminism and so on. Most of the reporters there were feminist reporters who went down there hoping they could just write praise worthy stories I mean. And when the coverage comes out negative you can't blame anybody really because we were all women feminists there. They were willing but there just wasn't the right Uriel you know where I think I have to tell it the way it was. Incidentally I made a fool Paula just a few moments ago. I said something about you could always be a housewife and I have a lot of reaction that remark because there are so many housewives who would prefer to be called home makers now and this is one of the things isn't it that you learn when you're working on a woman's page that they really take issue with this now we're going to put up a card so that people know who said that she didn't want to be a

housewife when I'm not married. Well it's going to be difficult to continue to comment about International Women's Year from it. In the end the coverage in Mexico City. I got the impression that you weren't very impressed with what was going on there. That's true. Good it came across. Well no nothing really much did happen there except a lot of shouting and. The missus the wife of the Egyptian president refused to talk to the wife of the Israeli president that's about the most colorful thing that happened. The world plan of action was passed but it didn't contain all that much in it for women and it probably won't be implemented because men run the world governments so there's really nothing much that happened there. Do you think everything you know you said man one running the world government there. They also run newspapers. Yes I was quite amazed that as

why we have all these complaints about women's pages. From what I've been hearing from my friends around the country and this may sound foolish but people who work on women's pages that I know seem to think that the male editors wives are getting a little bit uppity by reading when they read all the feminist oriented stories we've been running on women's pages and perhaps that's why male editors have been cracking down on women's pages because their own wives have been getting uppity and taking courses and going back to college and generally not being the typical nice stay at home housewife that the male editors want. You know you hear all kinds of reasons like you know I've not heard anyone say that before quite it's blatantly But you hear reasons like people don't want to read about that people you know people are interested in these issues. But it's true that a lot of people read women's pages right I mean The New York Times is the third one of the best read pages in the whole paper.

We're going to a research place that I have gone and changed the section from quote the old style society section to either women's news sections or and or family sections which I think it evolves into. I have had men comment to me after I've been there say a year. Well I didn't used to read that page at all but I certainly do now and I find it interesting. You know I've had many comments like this. So I really do believe it's a well read section is too bad that it's so underplayed you might say. But if you're looking over your section the section that you were editor of it seems to me they're unisex they're women's now or are we moving in the unisex direction you think I think this is what primarily it leads to if you do that if you convert the section the way it should be converted. We have done stories on for instance suicides around Christmas time this kind of thing. So many in-depth stories that are both for men and women. And why should you limit it to just women you

know as why should it be a reason to do this and that's why it becomes a unisex section so-called. Yet we still play at the fashions and. Cultural events in my particular section. I have adopted a theory that is widespread across some of the larger papers in the country where you take your section and you divide it into organizational parts the ards the local news the home travel different sections and then when people are interested in a given such topic they can look for it on that certain page. And this week we don't really just dwell on women's news in any of these topics we have men artists we have a male fashions you know this kind of thing too we try to vary it so much that everybody's interested in it. So that's why I think it's probably more of a a lifestyle section. Life today man was called in instead of just a women's news section anymore. Wish we could resolve you know your disagreement earlier. Do you think that

you know it's regressing and you think it's getting better. Well I think it's getting better as long as there are progressive women's news editors that are thinking along the lines that they should. But I think that the penny Missouri annual event last fall where all the women's editors in the country get together for prizes and everything. Most people I talked to agreed with me out there they say that there are male editors are clamping down. They're not being able to cover the subjects they used to cover they have to go back to consumerism and happy family stories and that if if they wanted to be a women's section. Yes no but these are all lifestyle sections. Yeah. For example one person I was talking to at the Miami Herald said that the editor called her up very irate one morning and said How did you dare run a story that had the word masturbation in the headline. Never again never again. Well I don't know. We've done quite a lot of this and haven't had any complaints in fact we've had many many compliments from our readers over the last year. And we have certainly continued

to do the other thing. I certainly enjoyed the improvement. I mean I enjoy reading the women's pages much more than I ever did but our make up is so much better than it used to be too yeah. He's running the six column four man vs. the column which is rather droll. And we use a quotation out a story in bigger type to lead the eye into the story it's that's more of a Western makeup class than Easter and I share. That it is more of an open area makeup that leads your eye into the page more. And you know one thing I think that would be interesting to discuss. I spoke a little bit about the advantages of working on a women's periods like the long stories and the bigger display but you know there are disadvantages to working there too as Barbara mentioned the salary you're regarded as a second class citizen by reporters on the news side. If you get a really good story it's taken away from you and given to a reporter on the news side it's taken out of your section. We get really tiny little press cards that don't enable us to go places where they don't want to just give us the time.

Right matter of fact. Yeah. But you're going to stay with it Judy. Well I like the freedom of writing and the big play maybe I'm an egomaniac. We're out of time. Thank you both very much. Thank you for watching and good night. Why don't you any of its content. And was founded by public television stations of the foundation and the camp duration of it public broadcasting. I don't.