Parents and Dr. Spock; 4; Fathers and Children

National Educational Television presents Parents and Dr. Spock, Dr. Benjamin Spock, a member of the staff of Arsenal Health Center, Pitt Medical School, and author of the book entitled Baby and Child Care, will discuss problems which are pertinent to all mothers. We have a special treat today, such as we've never had before. These gentlemen don't realize how hard we've tried in the past to get some fathers on the show. I admit we haven't tried too hard in the last few months because we ran into such difficulty in the first few months of the show. Certain number of fathers would agree to come on, and then when the moment came,

or the day before, they'd always call up and say, business interfered. We owe this fact that we've got actually four fathers today, not to our own efforts, but to the junior chamber of commerce who have been very cooperative in providing four fathers, imagine four all at once. The first father is Mr. Alexander. How many kids do you have, Mr. Alexander? I have two children, Dr. Spock, one eight five year old boy and the other eight two year old girl. Next is Mr. Ludwig. I'm up one step to three. I have Jamie, a girl five, Jimmy, junior, age three, and Teddy, age one. Mr. Demilio? I also have three, Dr. Spock, two boys, Timmy and Terry, little girl Mary Pat. We saved Mr. Robbins for the end because he's a special treat and a special client. Tell us Mr. Robbins.

Well, I have the grand total of seven and the range from the age of 13 down to ten months. That's wonderful. I wish I had anywhere near that number. You have some girls in there? Four girls and three boys and oddly enough, they have all alternated. Girl boy, girl boy, girl boy and girl. Sounds as if you had a system. Yes, I intend to write a lengthy book on the subject of picking your sex. I don't know whether we dare tell the ladies what this is. This program is part of a strip of the afternoon every day of the week that's called The Ladies Only. I always feel a little embarrassed being on a ladies' show. I don't know whether four, five men would make a special treat for them or whether they'll feel let down. As you imagine, we've decided that we ought to take this opportunity to talk about child rearing from the father's point of view.

And if I don't remember, Mr. Alexander has a good point to start the discussion. I have been concerned with coming home in the evening so often, helping the door, asking the children how they are. And they're of course delighted to meet me and have been gone at work all day. And the children say, oh, we've been just fine, daddy. And I turned to mother, how have you been? Oh, I've had a hectic day. The children have been terrible and I think you ought to do something with them. And in other words, I know there's stuff in the door, good many evenings, then I immediately have to step in and supposedly punish the children. It's quite a difficult thing, as you can well imagine to do. And I'd like to avoid it and leave the whole heartily that my wife ought to show some cooperation in this so that I'm not saddled with the entire burden. I can't help asking, is Mrs. Alexander listening now to know, well, I hope not.

I agree with Jack there. I think that's imposing a little too much on you, Jack. After all, if I would come home and my wife would say that, I would feel justifiably so that the kids should have a beating. But I think that she should take care of that. Now, if I would walk in the door and see the kids all bandied stopped and their arms and slings and everything, I'd know she had taken care of her. And I would, at that point, either console the children, depending on my mood, or give them another beating because I would back mother up 100%. I want to hear the other two fathers. Well, I would say, Jack, that the genie is shirking her duty. As far as the... Thank you. You don't have this problem at all, Mr. Ludwig. Well, as far as the effect of the punishment for what happened, it should happen. The punishment should be inflicted immediately, shouldn't it?

If someone does suspect in my understanding that they're punished right away for delaying. Spank them right away. And then that's bad. And of course, when I come in the door, they haven't been bad just then. They've been little angels. Greed at me, spiling faces, and that sort of thing. And it's awfully difficult then to turn around and have to punish the children right away. Mr. Emilio? Well, I think I'd like to invoke the Fifth Amendment on this question. There's a favorite program in here. And I can comment on this that I think Walter's main concern is that if he were faced with chastising seven children, he'd miss dinner. Yes, I was thinking about that. If it all had to be done in the evening. To get a little more serious about it, do you all agree that a father needs to back up the mother as far as discipline is concerned? Absolutely. At least, at least moral backing. Would you agree that from time to time, if there's something that's a little out of the ordinary discipline in your business, especially with an older boy, the mother may be right in this case and saying, I'd like to talk it over with your father and see what he thinks. So that he doesn't become just in that case, just punished her, but one of the judges about this is a serious business.

The age of the children would determine a lot. In our case, they're all young, and they wouldn't understand the wait till daddy comes home, exactly. Seems to me, I'd agree with the opinion that all of you have expressed. For at least two reasons, the mother has to take care of most disciplinary situations. Seems to me in the first place, if she doesn't, if she acts helpless or as if she didn't have the courage to carry out whatever the punishment was, that she loses discipline. In other words, anyone who has kids for the time being has to be in charge, this applies to a mother, this applies to a school teacher, this applies to a Sunday school teacher, this applies to a scout master. But none of these people can say, I'll talk to your mother about that. You have to with children be able to take charge of the situation as it comes. I think the other thing that you really all bring out is that you don't have the feeling of wanting to punish when you come home looking forward to reunion with the wife and with the kids.

That's the hardest part of all to do. And you are anxious to see the children when you come home, and you don't want to immediately step in the door and have to punish them right away. And usually it upsets you just as much as it does the children, and I don't think it's particularly helpful to the wife either, because it's upsetting her because the husband and the children are upset. And the kids look on the dad as the tyrant. That's right. Some kind of an auger. Yeah, the racons are going to get it. Well, in the defense of the women, I know that if you're home on a Saturday by yourself, well, women discussing is pure theory, because even last night I was home with the children for a short period of time, and they can do so many things wrong. And so a few minutes that you quit being angry and just get completely perplexed, and I think that's why many mothers are at the end of the day. They just overplexed. They just pass it on to somebody else. Logic would not stop them from doing it. Do you all have the same feeling about the weekend that it really...

You do your discipline wears out. It wears them after a while. And you don't know whether you're after them just because you're on edge or whether they're behaving badly. The other thing that I was really driving at, I think that it takes angeriness or indignation to be a good punisher that they used to say 20 years ago when they were talking more theory than they do now. That you should never punish a child in anger, especially never strike a child in anger, wait until you cool off. This seems to me this ignores the whole human nature of a disciplinary situation. You are angry. You are indignant. And you do feel like either cracking down or at least firming up with the child. And that you have to have that feeling to be able to do it effectively. What do you feel, Dr. Spock, that child better understands it if you do it in anger rather than from a later on calm disposition suddenly whacking for what he did in half hour before.

It would seem to me that he could understand it better. I think that's right. If we look at it realistically, the child has done something that he probably knew was bad. We're not talking here about a parent who is merely irritable and is jumping on a child for something that isn't bad at all. Where it's really the father or the mother being angry about some other situation and taking it out on the child. I assume that what we're talking about is when the child really has misbehaved in a way they've been warned not to do. And I think that this is the reality of the situation. The child is looking for trouble and that he's found that the adult is feeling appropriately angry. I'd go to the opposite extreme and say that the parent who can discipline a child certainly in a way of a spanking or something even in the way of a deprivation that really hurts the child. The parent who can lay that down in a cool moment is a rather grim kind of driving.

That's right that you have to really be a grim and somewhat unnatural person to put hot and soul or enough conviction into a punishment after the anger is all gone. So that I think that was a good example of the theoretical discussion that was way off in left field as far as the reality. Aside from discipline, how much part should a father take in taking care of his children and say in the evening when he comes home tired from work and whatnot? He should take a lot of burden off the wife. I had the pleasure of meeting a girl last week, secretary of a company, and her husband lost his job. She was taking care of a company where they build homes and this couple was in getting the plans and the baby was out being attended by the secretary. I said, you sure know how to take care of children? She says, well, I have two. I said, oh, and you're working. She says, yes, my husband's taking care of them, but he lost his job.

And it's two weeks now, and every night I come home, he comes up and he gives me a great big kiss. Is this honey? I know now what you went through. The moral of it is, it's easier to wake up. It is. I'm glad to get that at this tender age. It is easier to work. Do you all agree it's easier to work than it is to be in charge of kids that the people you work with are further along in their self-discipline? Well, it's variation in many cases too, and work where it's, at least the saying is, it's the same old registry at home. Depending on your job, I imagine in some cases CPAs as an example may feel the same way that the wives do. There is a non-very type of work they're doing the same thing every day. I think that the man tackled taking care of children just the same way he tackles taking care of his job if he had it organized. So he knew what he was doing, and every day he had said things to do that he could get that thing running just like he gets his office running.

I think I'm afraid the women are laughing at you right now on a matter of organization. It sounds good in their event. My wife said that there is, it may start happens, an organized procedure, but it doesn't last long that way. Too many interruptions that telephone the doorbell. I sympathize with the woman there. It seems to me even well-organized women, exactly the same complaint that there is no consistently organized way of doing it. No matter how well you've laid out your plan, there's always 20 things. Have you tried it in for two or three days in a row? Well, I was going to say I couldn't do it for a very small experience. I've asked in fact that we little petty gets here. Well, as a matter of fact, if I don't want to get into the office for six months and run that into the business and let me run the house, it doesn't scare me, at least I can say that. I was thinking not that it's more a grudgery at home, more sameness at home and more variety at the office, that you could almost turn it the other way around and say that at home you never know what's going to come up next.

Even though it is mostly children's business and house business, that this always, especially the children's part of it, always varies. I think the probably the toughest part of the women is taking care of the house while they children are trying to play. There's so many ways inside the house that the children will get into trouble while mommy isn't watching. And in the same light outside they'll get into trouble, get into fights and pretty soon the screaming starts and mommy has to get up from cleaning cupboards or whatever she's doing and go out and try to protect the children or order them in the house because they're not behaving. Well, you see, Jack, that's all part of the organization. I don't have a certain amount of time to handle it. You keep going. Why are you kidding? Oh, I just wondered if you were kidding. Now, I don't know how I've worked with seven longer, I'd rather start off with two. But really, you see, here's a woman. She's in her own cubicle here of five. I was about to scream. Up to ten, sometimes she gets where from being. But here she is.

Well, the dad, at least he comes home. Well, let's have dad in the house. He gets up in the morning and he goes out of the house and he gets on the street car. He's in a mode of transportation. At least he sees new faces. He sees that it's snowing here or it's right down here. And he can see new things, new businesses going up, changes in the scenery and so forth. And he, whether he works as a puddleer in the mill or whether he's confined into this stock room that's only a two by four and he hands out stock all day, at least he's seeing different people. I think the only way a wife can see different people is by turning on the television. And if she has many children, then she doesn't have time to watch television. No. Time other children have too strong tastes about what they want the television to be about. She can have that job. I'm interested to hear what cat happens on the weekend. Because you raised this basic question. How much of a pot should the father play when he's around?

I'd love to hear real confessions and what goes on on Sunday. Mine isn't as much of a problem because I work on Saturdays also. And Sunday is taken up the first half of the day at Sunday school in church, so it leaves only the rest of the day. And usually you don't have too much of a problem in that time there. That's happy to see the father of the day. That's really good. Thanks for having me today. Imagine. That's reorganization. Do you like that? I'll do that. Do you tend to take over that last half of Sunday? Not necessarily. Not even a boy. No, I have to get in a little of the gardening and whatnot in that part. It calls you. Of course, that isn't as difficult a time of the day if they can be out if the weather is good. I think all parents agree if they can be out. It takes care of half the difficulty just because you can get that much distance between people. I know people who want to be together can be together.

And those who don't wonder have a little space to go to. I don't think you can get a true opinion, though, Dr. For the listening audience from the four present here. Because I strongly feel that as GECs, we don't get much time in our eyes all agree to this 100%. We don't get much time to spend with our family. Actually, that's a fact. Because we're quite busy now. Maybe when we're over the hill at 36, I definitely feel what's over the hill. I see. That's when you go home and meet the family. I see. You know what point is this? Do you feel that this is recognized as a problem among junior children or commas? Yes. There was widely discussed among J.C.Y. The burden of the wife and a J.C.Y. family is considerably more than perhaps in other families. Of course, there are husbands and other organizations to bring extents also.

But I know that before of us are not too often at home during the week days. And many times on weekends the same way. At least when I'm at home with the children they don't get on my nerves. I haven't seen them that often. I'm not sure to see them. I usually take my children in the car up to the store. If I'm going after something myself or something that my wife might need, they go out in the yard and the voice is delighted to see me. He hasn't gotten tired of me yet. So he's watching what I'm doing at the yard. Even if he does get a little tired of that, I don't mind flying with him in terms of his swing or his tractor or his toolbox and helping him to build something. I do know and appreciate that if that went on too long I would get edgy too. And pretty soon we're trying to find ways and means of getting a little further away from him. I'm sure this isn't a problem just of J.C.'s, but of men who take an interest in community work and a civic work of any kind. What do you think the answer is?

I'm interested to hear because this sounds, as a matter of fact, it's not too different from the practicing doctor's problem. I'm not a practicing doctor now. I'm in full time at a university, but I'm well engaged or spending a lot more time than we are. I mean, there's a way from home almost constantly, let's say. Well, one of the big part of your answer is to yourself. He said, well, maybe the children don't need me too much. And work for the community is more important. Well, I think you say to yourself that this is a temporary sort of thing. I'll do what I can for the community for several years or a few more beyond that. And then I will get back and really be with my family and try to make up for last time. Thank you. Thank you. The doctor is saying this, I'm in the early years of practice. I've got to take every case that is referred to me and later on I'll take some time off. What's the only trouble with this? It doesn't work. It's right, if you get involved, you get why I frequently, the more involved you're going to get in the future. That's right, you get more and more valuable to the community in one way or another so the pressures come on.

So I think myself, certainly speaking guiltily as a doctor, that this is no answer, that you've got to decide sometime what the balance should be. Oh, there should be a definite balance. I mean, we ought to get down the earth. And I think that most of the fellows who happen to be DACs or in other organizations, are realizing their responsibilities at home, try to strike a balance. I mean, if they're any type of a sensible man, but contrary to what a lot of wives think, I think that the wives feel that we really enjoy being out. That's what my wife always says about out of town trips. But we don't. I know, I definitely know from talking to various fellows that they don't enjoy being out every night of the week. We like to be home too and be with the kids and be with our wives. I think actually, my only impression is that you have to at one point or another, and preferably early, make an absolute rule of how many times you will be home,

how many hours, and then stick to that. When somebody puts the pressure on, you stick to it as if it were an actual appointment. That's a secret. And I think that the only doctors have solved this, are the ones who say, I will always take Thursday afternoon's off, or something like this, and absolutely refuse to let themselves get involved at that time. I'd like to come back though to this point. How much is it a quantity of time that a man's children need him, or is it more of the quality, or is it a mixture? I think the old adage, if you want to get something done, get a busy man to do it, can apply here in defense of this situation. There's probably a lot of wasted time during the day that's not for any good, for the children or the community, that we probably have less of, maybe we cut down on our sleep or eating or something. But in our group, certainly, the same people are active here,

are just as active in their churches and doing just as good a job at home. I don't think we have a very high divorce rate or family's running off or anything. Dr. I think Walter Robbins here is hit on it. An answer to that, he's living the answer, and that he has probably less time at home than anybody at the table. And yet he's done more for his family along the way of spiritual guidance. He's taken the step forward. He's been affirmative in that time he does spend the time he's going to spend wisely. And part of that time he spends in the spiritual guidance of his children. And I think that's an answer to your question. This would be my feeling, not that time is unimportant and after all, if you get down to zero with your children, it doesn't matter how good you are in spirit. If you're not with them, they won't get the feeling. But I think it should always be remembered though that it's the quality of the time that you'll with your children, the spiritual character of it,

and the broadest sense that is the most important thing. I had the feeling the father who, for instance, can't stand going to the zoo with his children. But once a year makes himself do it and is somewhat grumpy all the time, all the three hours that he does spend that Sunday afternoon at the zoo. This is not particularly good for the children because what the children need is a father who is fond of them and is showing them that he's fond of them when he's with them. So I think that maybe this will be good news to you that the father should at least try to be with the children about things that are fun for him as well as fun with the kids because it's by having fun together that the kids feel this is really wonderful. Well, Doctor, have you found that with fathers who have unlimited time to spend with children, for instance, a father who was home every evening of the week in all day Saturday and Sunday?

Is he always an asset in all that time? Sometimes I think that perhaps it breaks up the very organization that I was talking about and he's just another problem to cope with. Well, that's the health of the children. And I think going along with at this point, again, it comes down to the quality of the time you spend with them. And I think that the example that the husband and wife, the love and respect, they show for each other and the respect especially of God in their homes, the respect that they have and the obedience to his authority as a tremendous effect on the children. Because they can't help but follow the pattern of mom or dad as they grow up. That's right. Everything that we've learned scientifically shows that this is how children grow in character and in spirituality is by admiring and wanting to be like their parents and that you can't do it by scolding them and you can't do it by lecturing it

into them. It used to be thought by making them write a motto, a certain number of times, a motto that was about a moral principle that the moral principle would sink in through the motions of the finger. And after all, this isn't how it's done. And I'm glad you emphasize how the husband and wife get together because I think that some fathers feel well. I should have a certain number of minutes or a certain number of hours with the kids and you'll take the kids off and just as important for the kids is for them to see how the mother and father get along together and I don't mean just by refraining from arguing or fighting but seeing how they enjoy each other. And actually, kids are enjoying themselves by coming along with a mother and father who are having fun together. To be more specific about it, we've learned in the psychiatry that this is where a boy gets his idea of what his marriage is going to be like. The real ingredients of his marriage will be bicing his mother and father together

and if the mother and father don't enjoy being together or are only squabbling. Actually, either he's decides to be a bachelor or he chooses somebody that he's going to argue with. He doesn't know that strictly in his head. He couldn't say that in words. But where the parents are quarreling, this is what children look for without realizing it by the time they grow up. I think in looking at children, you can tell somewhat how their home life is, how well the parents get along. You certainly can. I think of kids playing, mother and father, playing house together. That's quite revealing at times. You hear the little girl ordering the boys around and knowing she's imitating the mother and the boys vice versa doing the same thing and imitating the father. You can find out what the mother is like. This is very disconcerting. You really don't have a picture of how you are behaving in a family,

in your own family. Tog your white toy children until you hear something vivid like this. Very disconcerting, out of the mouths of children. Amazing. Well, the model you mentioned that just repeating doesn't do the job. That's particularly true of this model. Families that pray together, stay together. Well, they can repeat that over and over and over. But it doesn't do a bit of good. They kneel down and pray together. And they get some value out of it. And put one more step into it. What they mean, what they're praying about. Them children sense this and this is what's doing them good. Well, it's been a great pleasure to have you. I've gotten a thought. Now we know how to get hold of some fathers, maybe we'll call them again. Would you be willing? Very sure. Thank you. We enjoyed it. Well, I do know whether we're willing after we get going. You have just visited Parents and Doctor Spock,

featuring Doctor Benjamin Spock, author of the book entitled Baby and Child Care. Parents and Doctor Spock is directed by Carl Frevor. Produced by Mrs. John Ziegler, technical supervision Larry Flavre, from the QED First in Community Television. This is National Educational Television.