The Next 200 Years; Declining Achievement Scores

we have not educated for change what we have been ready for a change and i think that these things are now coming home to rules these many years afterwards i think you're on the right track would get makes it very complicated instruments that a crystal ball and they would do with a hold fox of societal kind of things that have a direct bearing on these very dismissive are using to assess her he's nice the university of texas austin this is the next two hundred years as the united states looks beyond the bicentennial celebration the next two hundred years explores the american future this as rex we're this week we'll be talking about the crowning achievement scores an education with us or benjamin harris professor of educational administration at the university of texas at austin no than sights professor of educational psychology at the university and paul

kelly professor of educational psychology and director of ut austin's measurement an evacuation center one of the most important to him apparently least understood issues in education today is declining achievement scores let's begin if we can with a brief assessment of what is known about this issue of paul being they expert measurement evaluation tell us what you measure and i evaluate for the past ten years every scores on test taken for admission to college and then going down this phenomenon seems to be quite general it's not limited to one particular test it's not limited to one particular part of the country evidence with regard to other types of achievement tests is mixed some scores are declining some are saying about the same and some seem to be increasing what is your reaction to this issue now i feel that we know very little

about this i think there's a need on the part of many people don't know a lot about it basically we already measuring them we are re labeling society and basically we're talking about the tests and we're talking about people in the still contend that we don't know very much about any of this but to them as an administrator or i guess it is important to suggest it even at this earlier point in our discussion that they were going to have to look at at least three year or four different areas to even begin to try to explain what's happening these are always complex problems in hand to look for simple answers to complex problems is always a mistake where is the greatest period of declining and what does it mean specifically the greatest area decline in achievement test scores seems to mainly verbal skills verbal achievement areas

it looked at the data for example for the college board scholastic aptitude test the decline in durable scores has been up grisham we greater than the decline in the math scores all both have been going down over the past ten twelve years so so primarily at the secondary level isn't that paul we don't have nearly as sharp the set of evidence at the elementary school now it's that sings too big an old little too late elementary school when an increase as you move up in the great recession fact they latest evidence from the national assessment program on writing skills shows declining writing skills and grain is a secondary levels weren't asian and shows an improvement this is a particularly interesting know a bit of counter evidence i don't wanna sound like a pollyanna here but i do think that we get him a year

national assessment of educational process progress program or rather different kind of testing for one flag and one which we now do have some very good compared its core is that the idea of between nineteen seventy one and nineteen seventy five which show some sharp improvements in some of the basic skills even among the black minority and other minority students know but i'm always concerned when we talk about time achievement tests tests what are we measuring and who are we measuring and what our criteria for measurement this is simply to say that i still have questions about standardized tests per se and how they use particularly on minority students because i don't think that we understand the people that we're measuring burwell and that if we used a normal referenced test i'd question whether or not that probably normally the normal questions around just disgusting issue i guess i'm agreeing

with you i don't know the answer yet maybe they're dumb when you find improvement among black youngsters you may not be measuring the general population but a specific group and made we all know who these people are because the measure the somewhat white group we might get the same kind of school things and really growing this what what do are these groups of terrorists and who have administered to how widely are they administer a college board scholastic aptitude test is administered primarily to seniors in high school planning to apply for admission to college is which request are r s at scores as a part of the criteria for admission they're taken by about one third of the high school seniors in the country that constitutes about two thirds of the highest grossing is planning to go on to college so they are taken by

a well remains students in this country each year they ate as i mentioned earlier the scores average scores have been going down over the past ten or twelve years what people tend to forget however is that the average scores went up during a corresponding period before that and that in fact the clan that has occurred has not yet brought it back down to the original level that it started at all you know were going on more students and failing to make it through college one what one division between sports going out and you're not getting religion and they know there's not they evidence as far as the usefulness of support for protecting college success is that the scores are still as useful as ever date percent dropping out has not declined because of them and parts another phenomenon going on investment grade inflation and college level that more and more high grades are being given for

various kinds of reasons so it's hard to ferret out the exact relationship between the two but might it not also be guessed that if students are making it through just the same but despite the grade inflation that there's something happening within intellectual of them are not attacking them for this something that we just are reaching through our test is happening with stuart that's despite inflation well some of these things we are reaching through art and yes it is quite clear that anyone tester battery of tests like college ward us at or others measures only certain aspects of achievement performance aisle we've had some more recent evidence from my study and jon flanagan using the test from project pant a major survey that was done in nineteen sixty using battery of about ten tennessee tested again with those scientists another group of students recently and indeed those results confirm the decline in certain areas such as the

verbal skills areas some areas seem to be staying about the same level and two showed significant increases over this period of time one having to do with measure creativity another measure of abstract reasoning so i don't think it's fair to conclude that all achievement is declining they're dissing the declines in some areas others holding about the same sum same time improving you were talking about achievement tests again we have to think in terms of all the kinds of studies that we have to talk about it cheaper tests than the relationship to teach attitude etc but that sort of thing whether or not there are enough studies in this area to get some ideas that relate to what we're calling grade inflation that that bothers me a little bit because i'm teaching and i'm doing a good job of my students are passing and they're acquiring the knowledge

that i want them to hand i see no reason to grade on the curve so that some students have to fail and that bothers me a lot that we seem to be saying we must feel a certain percentage of our students always going to be screaming out students robin screen them in to our schools it's a rather broad thing missing for specific answer but maybe a feeling about that sort of thing well i think there is considerable concern that this site that's has led to increased use of criterion referenced tasks where year assessing a student's performance against some extra hour criterion rather than simply relative to the other students in the class speaking of that all these are tests of the national assessment of educational progress they are criterion referenced it tested me and norm reference desk and they're the ones that we were talking about earlier which were administered to nine year olds not march ninth grader thousand year old youngsters after having previously a

minister four years four years earlier and the user and deal with some very practical skills manhole out of the building read in very fundamental ways ability to read them out in ways that tell really even find your way from one decade to the other are not the ability to write well enough to make out a year and application blanks on employer knows who you are and really wants to hire you or not and while we've seen some growth in that in the last four years the fact remains that most of the national assessment program testing has been very discouraging and suggesting a variant satisfactory or laura or ire of a satisfactory level of basic attainment educational areas but as an administrator delhi's professor both i worry a lot about i wonder if we don't have to give a lot

more attention to the question of not render the scores are going down but rather look where the quality of education is going up because it never has been what it ought to have then and what it ought to be and what it needs to be a noun in the future is there any a causal relationship between the number of students there we are educating today compared with forty or fifty years ago when perhaps we had a more elitist group a minute do these measures reflects the expansion of the population just a general reflection of what we have in real life rather than a specific elitist group that are going to the colleges and universities i think clearly over a fifty year period that you referred to the answer is yes they must be

reflecting that the changes we've been talking about however had a man over the last ten to twelve years and while even aware that more recent period the changes in the population of steven's going on to college my account for a part of that this chord change it can account for only a small part i think it is clear that there is a phenomenon here that goes beyond just being accounted for by those factors there are a whole array of societal factors though that one mike to one ought to take a hard look at your mansion in the fact that the schools have grown increasingly year over fifty years man they have increasingly serve all of the population but in the short run there been some other societal factors that i think we often don't get much attention to for instance between nineteen fifty and nineteen sixty five we've been through a social revolution in this country growth rates alone in the

schools and in the society population mobility increases hours so figure the other day i hope it was accurate and indicated that half of the family units in the united states it moved at least once in the last four years if that figure is andy weir's near actor and then i can imagine it could be what would happen in mobile home occupancy is in the last ten years alone we wonder gone social changes of unbelievable proportions in the last fifteen or twenty years on the scores had been going down and it's hard for me to believe given the studies of jennings and balloons and ann coleman regarding the influence of the home on cuba learned hard to believe that we should look very carefully at the societal a mom was going to call an aberration as it relates to learning what i have a lot of questions about

studies by james coleman more and these other part on bikes but i think the general point that's what makes this all very complicated and i think you're absolutely right when you talk about what we have not done in education we have not educated for change what we have been ready for a change and i think that these things are now coming home to rules these many years afterwards i think you're on the right track would get mixed very complicated instruments that a crystal ball and they would do with a hold fox of societal kinds of things that have a direct bearing on these very dismissive are using to assess you couldn't be more right it seems to me are so over this longer period of time our society is as the screws to take on the number of new jobs that they did not have before mention a few examples driver education is why more recent concern for increased tension tomorrow development as we've gone through the

societal upheaval when bowden school and a grave and schools have had to spend a good bit of time working on interpersonal relations skills among the students this inevitably when you fix the length of the school day the more time you spend on the new things the last time there is to spend on many old things it seems to me inevitable that there's some realignment of emphasis on these various activities every oversight bauman the educational world and really said what is bracing for a human being in our society today and in the future i think our society has decided on the goals for schools in a much less conscious rational process that is the goals for this coup in a given community are reached by sort of unconscious consensus process reflected by and through the members of the board of education who reflect their own constituencies i didn't get to differentiate between

elementary education secondary education and higher education when you say this because as paul is suggesting the man in the street is very very sensitive about what he wants his elementary school's to do and to be and he's probably thought it through very carefully probably too narrow it in my judgment but nonetheless rather carefully and then andy city elementary year professional educator teacher probably has no great term disagreement with that with the community about its priorities might argue about the scope of the program but not about the priorities of the secondary school in the college i don't think it ever even communicated or with the man in the street regarding what they're all about we have assumed that high schools were first get kids in the college and no one argues much about that and eight that there'll be some vocational training zamora long line and beyond that we really haven't done and

parker much systematically about what the secondary school american society on a day can sound and there's a rather strong feelings and it ought to be different than it is but no one listens to kids in our sister you're the one thing we haven't talked about week how will go just government employees also the political influence had important more more heavy to date that was yesterday so that education is becoming a political football an educated don't have very much to say you know about what goes all night we go back even further two eras like kuwait and others suspect that these theories didn't take into consideration the permits become multicultural nature of our society there are concerned about border to give bad news the test's use a measured those particular that he's now we are concerned about a multicultural society but we don't have in our commentary

among whatever the kind of thing that we ought to know and i couldn't imagine what i were thinking about other circuits assault made we need to look at the areas again basic concept of education i guess maybe we need to talk about what we're going to do about this very heavy political influence again so that's why i'm just going to more problems is to show that even educated should sit down you can't handle this in a vacuum because of other factors the control of nevada's was a ship inside the thing is afraid to use his insurance law we are social beings and the people who are out that you were talking about or people came through education institutions so we're saying the products that we've turned out onto it allows a job out their thoughts on what has happened in all of this you know is at a map of how our as opposed to education what is it that brings about this kind of change education of the formal and important that education the inside the outside and we haven't even to find them very quickly i

don't know that the matter of power and now one thing that they are as relate to what you're saying that the recent they gallop a poll looking ahead opinions of public opinions about education than focusing specifically on this declining know the parisian declining achievement in the schools found the man in the street girl hold as liam the family and the society heavily responsible which is encouraging in a way because undoubtedly as i was saying earlier the society does deserve substantial responsibility bringing an outdoor market on the other hand that paul also indicated that young people eighteen to i forget twenty five or thirty years of age what were most dissatisfied with their character the character the educational love process that they had been through in recent in recent years and it seems to me if you go out in the schools

as i do all the time you talk with kids and teachers administrators and so one of things that strikes you is that kids don't like what's going on in their school and it didn't matter and their successful students are unsuccessful students navigate the number of studies will demonstrate very clearly that people's attitude toward school on the average decline steadily beyond about the second or third grade and that when kids leave high school they're about is unhappy with the educational process as soon as candy without being in revolt as they occasionally are about done we've run all the remorse about week on dropouts so we've got a real difficult problem here from within the school and i think it's a mistake for a professional growth and i think a mistake for the public to continue to look to the test order the key heads or to the society for its answers when maybe it's right in the school on the way administrators and teachers are running the educational process

i would pick up on that and certainly not disagree that we ought to take a good hard look at what we're doing in the schools and try to improve it i don't want to leave the impression that i think all of the change is due to what is happening in the skin picking up on a gallup poll results out of eight possible reasons to account for test score decline the general public that fear so some school affect their first four jars is first of all a bell it was due to lack of concern of parents for their children certainly a lack of student motivation third they thought it was too much television viewing for their two of permissiveness in our society in general and only when i got to the fifth reason that it come in with teachers navigating getting enough attention just don't agree with that the facts are correct and i think it may even be a good ordering a video about love for wisdom that but i also think it's possible that with great wash their

hands we have a philosophy in american education that argues if anything goes wrong it's a kid's first and it's the parents second and that we never really get around to talking about the school's responsibility for a fourth so today's discussion is centered about one of the many problems of life than that of education our panelists included benjamin harris professor of educational administration at the university of texas at austin melvin sykes professor of educational psychology at the university and paul kelly professor of educational psychology and director of ut austin's measurement an evaluation center this is rex we're for the next two hundred years whole area is a continuing series of weekly conversations about the

american future the next two hundred years is produced by katie fm in association with the news and information service and distributed by communication service university of texans about this is he's at a birthday for