Redman's America; Indians of Today; The Pima-Papago

"I have come." That is what the Papago indians say when they stand outside somebody's house waiting to be invited in. This time I'm talking about the Papago Indians in southern Arizona and their cousins, the Pima. Uh, the Pima are Now, such civilized people that I can't spend too much time on them, but they are the ones who had great canals, an irrigating system, from their river, the Gila, long before other Indians had thought of such a thing. And both of these tribes had corn, Almost 300 years before the Pueblo people whom I've spoken of earlier had begun. Now here is the Papago Indian Outside his home and ready to plant, he wears what they wore in that warm desert country because you can see by the background it really is desert. And his costume then is simply a breech cloth. But it's of cotton. They raised cotton, just a few of them did, and the old men who had very little to do since this is a country where there's almost no war. The old men did the weaving. So he's wearing a cotton breech cloth, and he's holding a digging stick. He is about to make holes to plant corn. Now this can

only be done in the very tough desert earth after rain and I'm going to get to the story of what happens and how the rain is made. He did might possibly get some deer skin for a breech cloth, and his wife perhaps might wear some shredded bark, but usually these are poor people and they don't wear much more than you see there. Now suppose I go back to the map,here we are at The very southern part of the United States. This is this is the Gila River flowing off into the Colorado. And here is the country where the Pima live toward the east and the Papago in the real desert area toward the west. Now they are both related in language to the people of Nevada, who live in very similar sort of houses and to the Hopi in the desert, it's a language we call Uto Aztecan. But these people are really very different. They might live very much as the Nevada people did whom I've talked about before, except for the great piece of luck that they share with the Hopi, and that

is that in the middle of the summer their desert country has tremendous rainstorms. The Nevada Indians I mentioned don't get rain in summer and the people further up the coast don't get rain in summer and so none of those people raise corn. But this group down in the very southern, hot part of Arizona has rain in summer and they raise corn. Now here's a house; it looks a good deal like what I've shown for California Indians. There's a thatch that hangs down there in the fringes, You might almost think, should really be made of greasewood. That's the tough little bush that grows all over the dry desert and has wonderful yellow flowers in spring. The house is made on a frame of four posts with a roof of a cross made about the polls and more polls and finally earth and the style, over in the background, you see the mountains, the rough jagged little hills that intersect that desert in great long strokes, as it were, which the Indians say were made by Bet (?) early when the earth was just being formed,that flew there and cut mountains out

with his wings, and then at the side, you see the great staple of these Indians, the giant cactus, serious giganticus, what the botanists call it, and the Spaniards called it saguaro. I'll get to that in the extreme use that's made of it in just a few moments. Now next to that house there really ought to be a shelter. You see that house would be pretty hot in summer, with nothing but the little door, and of course there's a the smoke hole, there always is a smoke hole to let the air out as the Indians tell you, and lets light in, lets smoke out and the light and the air in, But next to it for summer use there ought to be an arbor on four posts, with just a very thick roof made of posts laid across other posts and then an immense pile of earth, maybe a foot or more deep to keep the hot sun rays out. Now here is a family down on the Colorado River and they are not Papagos I'm only using this picture because it's such a very good showing of the

little shelter. This should stand outside every one of those houses and it's used in the summer time when the people couldn't possibly stay inside in the dark hot little house they do their work out here, and the chief of the little village, they live in villages of 10 or 12 houses, perhaps, when he wants to call them in to a meeting, he will climb up by a little ladder, stand on top of the house and call. A fire is lit when the sun has gone down, come to meeting. Now here's a man wearing the same breech cloth that you've seen our Papago man wear and his women have, In this case shredded bark, which the Papago sometimes wear too, and the Pima in old days. Then you see the side on a triangular support made of a trunk that had three branches sticking out. You see, the thing had to be in front of every house, the pot full of water. Now there's almost no water in this desert country. In summer the rains come in July and until then, they simply can't live there, they live up in the mountains. But when the rains finally come there are

places where the women can go and fetch jars full of water and then this jar is set on its tree support outside the house. Then over here is a big roof basket meant for a granary. and the woman you will see pounding which of course is not right for the Papago, the Pagago and the Pima grind their corn like the Pueblos. Now I mentioned that giant cactus, which is a great source of support for the people and not only for food but it has magic properties. I've mentioned that the rains come in the middle of July. Just as they do with the Hopi up further North. And early July at the top of that great pillar, which you see here little flowers begin to grow. They look like white water lilies. It's amazing to see a water lily on top of this 20 foot high pole, but it grows And finally little oblong fruits with are covered with prickles grow instead of flowers

and about the middle of July, they are ready to pluck. Now this is the way the woman goes forth, every family has its place on the slopes of one of the hills, which is their particular cactus-gathering orchard, they it we'll call it something like an orchard. The family goes there to camp, and every morning when the morning star comes out, and it's just light enough to see, but cool enough to work, the women go forth with a basket like like this bowl (?) basket, which she's put in a greasewood bush, and with a long pole made of the ribs of the cactus. This great succulent green Tiller is supported inside by very tall ribs that look like slats. I used to think that they were actually carpenters' slats when I first saw them, when the green melts away as the cactus grows old, green rots away, and you see this package of slats standing upright. The Indians take them and use them for everything to help sheath the house. And to, they tie two of them together for this pole and the women puts a little cross beside

on the pole and pulls down the fruit, then the fruits are cooked and the juice is taken back to the village, where it ferments, and the fermenting of that juice is a very magical thing that I'm coming to later. It's what brings the rain. Now while the women are doing all this, the men are hunting. In the winter, I've mentioned, it's, there's almost no rain down there in the desert. The rain comes in summer. So in winter the whole family often decamps, goes out into the mountains where the deer are, the man hunts deer, and this is his very clever disguise. I have talked about it before, the Papago aren't the only people who do this. He has a whole skin of a deer, which which he puts over his back. The horns he generally has to remove, they're too heavy, but but he makes horns out of wood and places them on the head, then he takes two sticks in his hands and his legs, he really ought to dabble with brown paint so that he looks pretty much like a deer and in that disguise he walks slowly right up

toward a herd of grazing deer, of course if the wind is blowing from the other way and he has a helper with him, carrying his bow and arrows, all of which are handed to him at the last moment. If he was going to use the deer for ceremonial purposes, just as the Pueblo people do, Then he couldn't shoot it, there wouldn't couldn't be any blood. So then there would be special runners who follow a deer days.? over the mountains. And of course the deer, in order to eat, would have to stop and graze while the man can just eat a little porridge, which he carries in his belt so the man will ultimately outrun the deer, and then he can jump on it and smother it and get its and get its hide to take home for ceremonial purposes. But before he does that, he apologizes, and says to the deer, "my friend you know that we have done this because we needed you. We do not mean you any harm, but my children need food". Now, the men also do the corn planting. We've talked about other tribes where the women did it, and in those tribes the men were very busy with

war. They were generally larger tribes and they were places where the men either wanted conquest or where they had such rich country that they had to fight other people to defend themselves. But in this vacant country nobody wanted to conquer the Papagos. Even the Spaniards never bothered at all. So the men were free and there wasn't very much hunting, except occasionally in winter. The men therefore planted the corn. They waited until the great summer rains. When that hard desert earth, hard as concrete, was moistened almost like pudding. Then the man put down his digging stick, in the way that we showed our friend doing here just tap down into the earth, and behind him came his wife carrying the corn kernels from last year, her seed corn in a little pouch, where she puts. four kernels into each hole then smoothed it over with her bare foot and then much later, the songs had to be sung to make that corn grow, it wouldn't grow just by leaving it to nature. Now the woman had a great deal to do, besides this cactus

gathering, beside, helping her husband plant the corn, though he did the rest of the work, and I should have mentioned a little more about this picture. He is not planting here, you see he is kneeling and what he is doing is weeding. He has a long stick, rather sharp on one side, like a very rough looking carving knife and he simply sweeps that across the tops of the weeds, and cuts them off, he doesn't He doesn't pull them out at all. I used to wonder why he didn't do more, But this season is very short, and their corn is of a sort that grows quickly, so that once or twice cutting off the weeds with a sword hoe is enough. Now meantime, the woman has been gathering green stuff, she's been getting the cactus, she has been getting mesquite beans which grow on a tree and she's been getting material for basketry. Now, moreover, the woman quite often has to fetch the water because even after the rain has come and after there is water in some little runlets, up toward the hills, It isn't right out there in the desert and for the family, and to fill the water jar, the woman must

trot, she trots all the time, she doesn't run, she doesn't walk, she trots, and they explained to me that it isn't difficult that way. I didn't find it so, but they assured me it was. Now she carries on her back a basket, and this is quite a unique sort of basket. No other Indians north of Mexico has it. it is like a rather a shallow cone, and if you could see, it's made of cactus fiber, which is very tough. It's like that strong brown string that we use. It's woven in a very beautiful pattern And made into a net, it isn't solid, it's net, and that net used to be painted in blue color which was made from the soot of the fire and red, which came from iron oxide that her man brought home for her. This basket, then, was painted. You can see that it has long stakes which are cactus slats, I think, it's supported so the cone stays open, Now she trots with that all day long, first early in the morning with the time of the morning star.

She goes out to get the water and it may take her hours to trot to the base of the mountains, where perhaps there's a little spring, a little spring, to And to fill a small jar then stop the mouth of it with grass so it won't leak and carry it home. Then she'll have to go and get firewood. And as you saw here there are no trees, this is desert. So she will have to go to some slope where there are perhaps mesquite trees whose boughs, a few boughs have fallen off, or there are little sticks here and there, and it may take her hours to get the firewood. She'll pile this into the shallow cone of her basket, tie it on with a string, which in old days was made of her own hair. Later they did it with horse hair, but she cut off her black hair and used it for string, it's a good strong material. Then if she had a baby, there was no baby sitter, and the baby in its cradle board was put on top of the load of firewood and with the whole thing, she trotted back and forth and got what the husband needed. And I remember there was a very old woman, who was a friend of mine, whom I knew when she was about 80,

and one day when we started talking she said, "Sister I'm thinking of getting married." Well, I was somewhat unused to to this sort of thing and I said, "Well, sister, could you get a man?" She said, "Oh yes, yes. I'm a good worker. I get wood, I get water. all the men want me." so it's rather different from anything we know of. Now she also gets basket materials. These baskets are very typical, that particular kind of pattern, a sort of maze, is made over and over again. Both the Pima and the Papago made these. And the really nice baskets are made of willow.. They're black and white. The white comes from willow, which has to be gathered in the rainy time, when the willow is supple. Long strands of willow are . picked or cut with a stone knife in old days. Then they have to be shredded, and of course you do it with your teeth, they Explained to me, how else could you do it? So it's shredded into nice little fine strands. Then the black comes from a plant called devil's claw.

Which has great long black beans. And those, too, you shred with your teeth. That's a very fine basket Perhaps it could be used for a food basket or for gifts. This one is to hold beans probably. You put beans in these, and if you're moving, and have to leave the house, you might have this basket of beans buried in the ground and put sticks over it,, so that nobody would find it, just as good as a safe. Then this one is a fancier one, could be used for gambling Sometimes various little stones are thrown up and down and the way they land has something to say about the score that you're made. Too long to tell all about that. Now she also makes pots, not very many. The basketry is used largely for food and for the big trays by the way,can be used for Parching corn, the corn is taken off the cob, just as I once showed the Pueblo people doing.

And then, before it can be ground, now they don't pound the corn. It's eastern people who pound corn, and I've said before, western Indians who grind it. So, when it's time to grind corn, they generally parch it first. and it's placed in a very flat basket over the flame and shaken. The basket is shaken rapidly so the basket doesn't burn, and and the corn is Parched so that it's good and crisp, and then it can be ground very easily. Sometimes it's popped in that way too. And when I asked whether the basket burned, the women said a good good cook, of course, doesn't burn her basket. A careless one, yes. She wouldn't know how to shake it properly. Now here is one of my old friends with the basket that she's made. And some of them you can see are not Exactly, they don't look like Indian things, but She's made them to sell to white people, but they're made of willow and they are in the various shapes, large and small she's sitting outside a summer house, which is one of those arbors that I did show

with the posts. And then across the posts are tied cactus ribs, that they're always called,those smooth slats inside the cactus plant. They tie it across with vines of course, no nails and then inside are upright cactus ribs and makes almost something like a little screen house. Now the women are busy then with basketry,with getting wood, with getting water with getting all the green things they can find, they really are on their feet working or sitting down and working all the time. Meantime the man does the planting. But of course after he has left his corn to grow he does have some time. He is the one who weaves. I've mentioned that with the Hopi people the men are the weavers because there also there isn't much fighting, there isn't much hunting. The man has time to weave, and in places like the Navajo where the man was fighting, then the woman was to wove. . Now, here's an old man. I think that what he's weaving is a rabbit skin blanket, of the kind that I have showed

before and I have mentioned what a very soft and comfortable thing that was. He probably has cotten warp, which he's strung or down over that pole and then here the weft it is a long string of fur that he's weaving in and out. Now these people did have time for ceremonies and for games as some people work so hard that as I talked about in Nevada,for instance, I mentioned that there was very little ceremony among those people, they were moving around looking for something to eat, all the time. But these desert people, after the rains had come and everything was growing, then they did have some time. One of their favorite games was called kickball. This is a kickball picture. Which one of my Indian friends drew, on descriptions which were given to him by the old men. The idea was that there was a little ball, here the man is kicking it. It was sometimes just a knot of wood. There were, might be some teams, here's

other ball here that has been kicked, you see, there might be teams of any number of people it didn't matter. And you see how little they wore and they had no moccasins they simply raced over the desert. One man in a team would kick the ball with his bare foot. And his, I've seen feet that were so tough that you would think they were old tree roots and particularly the nail on the big toe which turned under and looked like a great big piece of horn. Well the man would kick with this with his bare toe and then everybody would run. The one who kicked might be left a little behind and then the next man would come up and kick and the race that was run that way might be four or five miles and maybe would take all day and they bet everything they had on it. I mean their shirts, they didn't have any shirts. But they bet their baskets and bows and arrows and rabbit skin blankets, anything they had that they sometimes came home completely without possessions from a kickball fiesta. Now they did go to war sometimes not from choice. But the Pima, who lived on the Gila River and had irrigation were richer

people they really did go to war from choice sometimes and big armies,they say, and they fought people on the Colorado River. Now the Papago, on whom I'm spending most time today didn't go, didn't want to conquer anybody and nobody wanted to conquer them, as I've mentioned. But in the summer they did have a pretty good corn harvest, the corn they would put either in those big baskets that I showed on top of the roof or possibly if they meant to move in the winter, where there would be some springs and some hunting, they would dig a great hole in the earth And put their corn in jars or in baskets, covered with branches to keep it clean then put branches over that and then earth over that,make an underground safe. Well, the Apaches who live up on the mountains There, you saw the mountains behind the house.The Apaches knew about that, and so every fall or later in the winter they would come down and steal corn and take some women for slaves. Now the Papagos felt that that had to be

prevented so they would every year decide then to have a punitive expedition against the Apaches and that punitive expedition was rather a mild affair, might be 10 men who would fast and sing for several nights and then who would take a little pouch of corn meal at their belts. and they'd take their bows and arrows and a few of the bravest would take their clubs, which were just a tough piece of wood with a knob on the end. And they would steal out toward the Apache country. Now the night before they were going to attack, the good time to attack with all Indians was just before dawn when psychologists themselves and doctors tell us that people are at a people's vitality's at a low ebb. Just before dawn they would rush in and try to crawl through the small hole perhaps crawl through those little doors of houses and perhaps throw torches on the houses so that people would come out and they'd club them as they came. Now the night before that attack was to be made the men would sit with their shields like this and they would sing songs almost all night long to give them magic powers so that the Apache

just wouldn't be able to resist. One song I remember said, field mouse gnaw the bow of this, This my enemy so that it will be powerless. Rain storm Soften the bowstring of this my enemy so that it will not, cannot be tightened to shoot. There were many, many such songs and if they sang them enough, then in the morning they could make a really good attack. And here they are ending one of their songs and banging on the shield. Now they also had ceremonies and one that I alluded to before was the one when the cactus fruit was used and was fermented. It was picked in those two weeks when every family camped up in the hills and the women gathered all the cactus fruit they possibly could. Then they brought it back to the council house and the chief of the little village who generally was just a sort of father and friend, not very much of a ruler. The chief would get on top of his house, call out, our fire is lit and sun has gone

down, come together following our old custom and sing that the that the corn may grow, the beans may grow, and the squash may grow. Then all the cactus juice was put in great jars larger than the one I showed in the council house. And then for 72 hours it was left to ferment. And while it fermented young people took hands and danced around, it wasn't very much of a dance but they moved around very rhythmically singing songs which would cause fermentation. The one that almost used to make them weep, I remember, was about the home mountain, the mountain right behind their own little village. And I think it said on the edge of the mountain a cloud stands and there my heart my heart my heart stands with it. On the edge of the mountain the clouds tremble, and then my heart my heart my heart trembles with it and if you sung that four times, sixteen times, thirty two times you pretty certainly bring the rain. Now meantime the crops are growing.

This, the rain comes now and some time after this song, Not exactly when the medicine man says. But it comes because it always comes in July and now the crops will grow. In order to make them grow, the planter, the man, has to go out and sing to the crops. He sings in the day time he walks around at night generally and sings ah, the my cricket is coming. The birds are Singing, the corn is growing. Various songs like that. And then a group of them also can gather in council house and make very special music. In order to do that, they turned a basket upside down and use this stick which is just a piece of wood notched, run another stick up and down to make a noise which is like rain. Then they say this is the rain noise. And when you make this the rain will most certainly come. Well I sometimes venture to sing that song and I explain that nobody is to criticize my voice because

to be a good singer among the Papagos you don't have to have a voice, in fact the more scratchy it is the better. You must be an old person who knows the words and doesn't ever get them wrong. And if you do that the rain will come. So I'll sing just a bit of it. (sings with the stick sound) That's the beginning. It goes on in this long slow way and it ends with two very sacred words. (sings with the stick sound) When you say that, the rain will come. And that has actually spoiled picnics by saying that. now they do have medicine men, too, as most Indians west of the Rocky Mountains have, the same general sort, who cure by sucking the evil out from the patient's body. The particular medicine men here, with both Pimas and Papagos, have a very special device which their spirit helper has generally told him about in a dream.

And that device is little crystals. Now you can find crystals lying on the desert almost anywhere, really, but the Spirit of a Medicine man tells him to go out and to look at his feet and he will actually see crystals which you never saw before. So I have four of them here, they always come in fours, That's the magic number. And these I had to buy from the widow of a dead medicine man. She was afraid to have them anyway. She was glad to get them out of the house. There is so much more to say that as I say so often about many different tribes, There ought to be a book. There ought to be many books and people ought to read them all. People have so little knowledge of the many interesting devices that Indians without machinery could work out to make themselves comfortable and to keep alive and to handle their affairs and moreover to get in good contact with the spirits. But since there's no more time for that I give the usual Papago farewell and I'm going.

(Native singing) (Native singing) silence (native singing) (new program starts) silence (native singing)

(native singing) (native singing ) (native singing) (Native singing) That's a Sioux Indian greeting. We've now had some programs about Indians, but they were all Indians of the past. I think that was very wise because both white people and Indians need to know something about the extremely efficient and dramatic way in which old time Indians lived. But we ought not to leave them without some words about the present and the future. Now I have some experts on those subjects here. But before I call on them, I'd like to many several general statements that I find many White people, to use that funny term, don't know. Now in the first

place, that is an Indian reservation, it's not a concentration camp. It's not a place where Indians are placed and told not to move. Not a place where they're supported. It is land, set apart by treaty, for the use of different Indian tribes. It belongs to the United States, mostly, not to the Indian but it's reserved for their use. Now, Indians who live there are not supported by the government. The government provides services the same that would be provided in what we'll call a white community by the county. That is schools, roads, hospitals, visiting nurses In an ordinary county, those will be provided by the residents of and paid for by taxes. Now since the Indians have been promised that they should have this land for their use without taxes. Therefore, somebody has to pay for these services and the United States government pays for them. That is the reason that you hear so many white employees on an Indian reservation. They are doing work for the Indians that would otherwise be paid

for by taxes. Now the Indians themselves earn a living like everybody else. They have Social Security and they have the unemployment insurance if they are out of work. They have aid to dependent children and to the blind and so forth. And old age pension. (laughter) If you saw Indians today, as once in awhile we have on these programs, when we've had modern Indians to visit they would look exactly like any, most any white people. You would see them wearing the same clothes as other people do, speaking the language, they go to school as other people do.. They come out of the cities to get jobs. They are not supported by the weekly checks by the government or monthly checks, as some people imagine. Now legally, they are citizens of the United States and have been since 1924. That meant that they could vote in a government election, but different states had a right to restrict

voting, not only for Indians, but for anybody else that they wished to. And the final restrictions in the last states, Arizona and New Mexico, were not removed till about 1947. Also Indians are organized in their own, on their own reservations by a law that was made in 1934 by which an Indian tribe can incorporate as a white man's town is incorporated. It can borrow money from the government for improvements. They can also take care of local affairs, make their own rules about those. The law against selling liquor to Indians, which has been so much talked about was repealed some time ago, after Indians who had been in the army with their white buddies realized that they were getting different treatment and they asked that this rule, which had once been made at the request of Indians, should now be abrogated, and it has been. So that Indians now have all the privileges of white people except some kinds of social

privileges which I think we ought to talk about later. Now, the various experts I have are both white and Indian. Here is Dr. Rifle, who is a half-Sioux. He tells me that he lived on the reservation and went to live like an Indian until he was 19. But now he is a doctor of public administration from Harvard. He is employed by the Indian Bureau, and director of the Aberdeen area which means three states, North and South Dakota and Nebraska and 16 reservations, which he manages. And I think we had better ask him something about the present situation of Indians on reservations, what are their prospects, how do they like their life, what can be done. What can you say about it Dr. Rice? (Dr Rice speaks): (Unintelligible) I think people just like any other people like to stay at home if they possibly can,if there's an Opportunity to make a living there. One of the biggest problems that are facing

Indians today on their Indian reservations is the lack of opportunities to make a decent living. This is true because the populations of Indians is growing very rapidly it's growing faster than the national population. This is on account of a decrease in the one time very high death rate, and the continuance of a very high birth right. This decrease in the death rate has come about by an expanded health program, it began probably back in about one hundred twenty eight, and has continued to be expanded and intensified over the years since. And the other thing is that the machinery used in agriculture has made it necessary to have more and more acres of land for fewer and fewer farm units. Take for example in North and South Dakota. The past two, six years. Those two states have lost about a thousand farm families every year because economics of agriculture are such that the land can support more families

under present conditions. The Indian reservations are largely in rural areas and so this agricultural situation, which is calling for fewer and fewer farms to produce our necessary food and fiber is affecting the Indian people too. And so if they're going to have a decent level of living on their homelands, several things that have to take place one might be to try to introduce industry. This the Bureau of Indian Affairs is attempting as well as the states in which union reservations exist, but because they are in disadvantaged areas, it has been very slow. We haven't gotten very far with bringing industry either on the reservation or nearby reservations. We have other programs of attempting to intensify the educational opportunities both for our children and for adults so that they will develop skills that will enable them to get away from the reservation to make a living. This has been slow too because the educational background

has been very limited. It is reported that the educational level in the United States for the nation as a whole is around the 11th grade. For Indians across the nation it's about the fifth grade level. And so we are a long long ways behind in that respect. And it is for these reasons that opportunities on the reservations are very limited. And as the Population increases and machinery is brought in to require more and more land, it's just going to mean more and more people having to leave if those who remain have a decent opportunity for a living. [Dr. Underhill]Now hasn't the Indian attitude toward going to school and getting skills and training. Changed a good deal? [Dr. Rifle] Yes, I think that has changed considerably, particularly as a result of the two world wars and the Korean conflict. [Dr. Underhill] It's my understanding that in early days when, particularly the Sioux, your people, were so used to a hunting life, and not even to agriculture, that they simply didn't want to go to school. And if they had been able to keep up the hunting life, using many hundreds of square miles to

roam over, of course, they wouldn't have needed school actually. But there was the changed situation, they needed school. And it's taken some generations, I think in most reservations, to get them converted to the idea that hard labor up to the age of 20 or so. [Dr. Rifle] Yes, I think that's right, and now we have probably 300 young men and women in universities and colleges and in trade schools. This wasn't true 25 years ago when I started away to high school. [Dr. Underhill] Are there going to be also doctors and lawyers and other real professionals among the Indians? [Dr. Rifle] Oh, yes, I think they're coming along. We already have a few lawyers and a few doctors and a few nurses and a few college professors, but we need a lot more of them and I think in another generation we will have them. [Dr. Underhill] Now, they usually to get training like that, they have to go off the reservation and then perhaps they have to go off the reservation to practice, do they?There's isn't too much possibility on the reservation. [Dr. Rifle] That's right, except they can come back to the reservation and work in the Public Health Service and. Participate in those kind of opportunities. [Dr. Underhill] I really should have asked you about health. There was a time, not too

long ago, when Indian health was the worst in the whole country wasn't? [Dr. Rifle] That's right. [Dr. Underhill] And now it is improving . [Dr. Rifle] It is rapidly improving. I think we're getting tuberculosis under control such a degree that it will be reduced to the point [Dr. Underhill] In spite of a great deal of ignorance and and lack of real skill in managing Indian affairs, Many good things have been done for them. [Dr. Rifle] There certainly have been. (Dr. Underhill). Well, we've talked a little about what Indians do when they get off the reservations and here is a lady who lived on a Navajo reservation for let me see, 19 years? Well, this is Mrs. Organic, a Navajo, who She tells me, herded sheep on the beautiful mesas sunny slopes of the Navajo reservation until she was 19. She, of course, did go to the school the government provided. She met her husband in 1954, a doctor, married him, and went to New York which is considerable change from the reservation. Now, will you tell us, What seemed the queerest to you, when you left the reservation and went to the city? (Navajo woman speaks) Well, one was the climate. (Dr. Underhill) The Rain. (Navajo woman) The rain (Dr. Underhill) None of us has to pray for rain, and New Yorkers hope it will go away). (laughter)

[Organic] And the other one of course is the big city. And Also the food. [Dr. Underhill] And you also told me they talk, move too fast and they talk too fast. [Organic] Yes, they talk too much. [Dr. Underhill] They talk too much. I don't doubt it. (laughter) And,well, would you care to continue living in the city, or do you want to go back? [Organic] Well, I would love to go back. [Dr. Underhill] And really live in the hogans, which is the little log homes that the Navajos built? You'd really like that? [Organic] Yes. [Dr. Underhill] And now you have a little girl. How do you want her brought up? Would you prefer that she was brought up on the reservation, or outside? [Organic] Well, yes and no, for that question. I think it's very important that she learns Navajo and English. [Dr. Underhill] Better learn it while she's little, it's such a hard

language. I've tried. [Organic] Oh, so that it would be easier for my parents to communicate with her. [Dr. Underhill] But, do you think that she would be content to live in the hogan,which has one room, hasn't it, and an earth floor. And of course no electricity, no toilet and so forth. (Yes) Would she be content? [Organic] I think so. [Dr. Underhill] So you're bringing her up that way. It's possible (laughter), but then Mrs. Organic is probably an unusual Indian in the very rapid change she was able to make in the adjustment. Now, oh, I'm going to ask later on, Mr. Hessen who is in charge of relocation for Indians in the in the Denver area. Everybody's heard a good deal about relocation, that means the government effort to arrange work outside the reservation for Indians who want it. Now, Mr. Heserd is director of relocation services in Denver.

I wish you'd tell us, first, Mr. Hesserd, how you choose, do you choose the Indians who are to come from the reservation work in town. [Mr. Hesserd] Ruth, before I Tell you that, I'd like to, describe just a little bit what relocation means. Relocation is something that's been happening for generations in this country. Indian people have been relocating for a long time. [Dr. Underhill]) themselves, with out help. [Mr. Hesserd] And our specific program is called relocation services. And the emphasis we hope is on the services. It came into being to meet the need of Indian people, who had been going away from the reservation a little way. And working part time in agriculture or maybe on railroads. And supplementing their, their reservation income with part time work. As the population increased, as Dr. Rifle mentioned, and some cases, the resources diminished, the

Part time work was not sufficient, so the folks began moving farther and farther away from reservations and, at that point, began experiencing some difficulties. And the need for it, for the kind of services we provided, came into being. [Dr. Underhill] Now you don't urge them to go from the reservation, do you? [Mr. Hesserd] It's an an entirely voluntary thing; it's there for anyone who chooses it. For those people who do not wish to relocate, they simply don't. We stand by with the readiness to serve type of activity. [Dr. Underhill] Do you even look into their character and their past to see whether they're likely to succeed at a job? [Mr. Hesserd] If they should want to relocate they, we have representatives on most of the reservations throughout the country. And incidentally they have their choice of 12 different cities in the United States to which they can come. Denver is one of them.Now, should they wish to relocate, they can go to one of these people, these agency representatives, and make an application. It's a rather complete thing.

It includes all of their work background and all of their educational history. It even indicates on there whether or not there may be family problems or incipient problems or anything [Dr. Underhill] So like if the wife might object and he husband wanted to go. [Mr. Hesserd] And there must be an assurance to us, that the family, in total, wishes to go, not just the husband, but the wife must have full voice too. If that is all determined and everybody's agreeable, then there is a complete physical examination given the worker, the head of the family. In order to be sure that he can do the job and can meet any physical examination standards of any industry. Then a less complete physical examination is given the mother, the wife and the children, to the extent that we are sure that we never bring into any community any infectious or contagious diseases. And that they are able to move. [Dr. Underhill] and now we want to know how they get along when they get here. Do they generally the majority of them, do they keep jobs and remain?

[Mr. Hesserd] I would say yes, they lose about two And they usually stick on about the third one. now we don't think that's any different than anybody else. I mean I move into a new area, and I find a job that maybe I don't like or maybe the boss doesn't like me. I go on one early, so I'll have an income, but I look around for something better. And I don't think that this business about three jobs for Indian persons is any different than any newcomer. [Dr. Underhil]) Well, when they lose one job or give it up, do you help them? Do you help them find the next one or do they do it? [Mr. Hesserd] We do. Any jobs they lose, through no fault of their own, we help them again. (overlap comment from Dr. Underhill) [Mr. Hesserd] If they lose it through their own fault,then there's no flat rule, but it maybe we will decide on the merits of that individual case that we will or will not help them. They may need some special counseling or something of that sort. [Dr. Underhill] Do you think many of them become public charges on the cities? I've heard so often that they do

[Mr. Hesserd] Not the folks that we relocate. For example in Denver there are something in excess of 20,000 people on public welfare rolls, and there were a couple of months ago. At that time 20 of those families were Indians [Dr. Underhill] 20 out of 20, 000. [Mr. Hesserd] and one of those families was a family which came under our relocation program. [Dr. Underhill] Of course, though, a good many Indians come entirely without your help or sanction. [Mr. Hesserd] Many of them. [Dr. Underhill] And you get blamed when they leave, to a degree, don't you? [Mr. Hesserd] Well, there's always the feeling that, people don't understand Indian programs and Indians either, I don't think, [Dr. Underhill] No, Surely not. [Mr. Hesserd] So if there's an Indian agency in town and there's an Indian in town, that we must apparently have some relationship [Dr. Underhill] There is this generalized idea that that every Indian should get a check once a month, and that when anything happens, the government takes care of it, and that is of course, quite untrue. [Mr. Hesserd] That's the whole story. [Dr. Underhill] So, Let's talk to some Indians who have just come to Denver, or very shortly. This is

Mr. and Mrs. Spotted Bear, who came, I think you said, four months ago, did you? now, you come from, let's see, you're Black Feet,and you come from (Browning?) and Glacier Park, don't you? Well, did you tell me that you'd been working with whites before this. This isn't your first time. [Mrs. Bear] No, it isn't. [Dr. Underhill] What had you done before, and where've you been? [Mrs. Bear] Well, I've lived in Glacer Park all my life. I went to school in South Dakota. That was all Indian school. [Dr. Underhill] and Glacier Park, though, is a place where tourists come in great quantity, so you would have seen any amount of what was non-Indian, or whatever we call them. (Dr. Underhill) Now you went to a public school didn't you say, in Browning? (Mr.Bear) In Browning. (Dr. Underhill) So these are people, and a great many like them, I should say, who are not just reservation Indians without Any idea what happens outside, or any desire to know. they're people who have lived with their white fellow citizens most of their lives. And what is your job now, Mr. Spotted Bear? [Mr. Bear] Well, I'm working on labor down in Denver Fire and Clay. [Dr. Underhill] But you really are a welder, you're just waiting for a better job. And do you live among Indians or among non-Indians? [Mrs. Bear] Non-Indians. [Dr. Underhill] and which would you choose

if you had, could find a house anywhere you wanted? [Mrs. Bear] I think I'd rather live among non-Indians.. [Dr. Underhill] And it's a rented house, isn't it, it's not just a flat or a trailer, you're living in a regular house, and do you expect to stay? [Mr. Bear] Yeah. [Dr. Underhill] You expect to stay. Now, people who feel that Indians should keep up the old life on the reservation wouldn't get along very well with with your problems, would they? I think now we'll go back to discussing with our two experts, some of the bearings of all this. Now, in the first place we ought to make it clear, don't you think, Chester, that The Indian reservations simply have too great a population to take hold, take care of all the people no matter what was done? Is that your opinion. [Mr. Hesserd] That definitely is so. (Mr. Hesserd) I think Dr. Rifle mentioned that sometime ago here in this discussion the

population is increasing and the size of the reservation of course is not. [Dr. Underhill] So no matter what we do for them, we (laughs) For the government, anybody, no matter what is done on the Navajo Reservation where there was once 8000 people now there are 80,000, there the land simply cannot support them and some arrangements must be made to help them, help a few of them.. [Mr. Hesserd] That's quite correct. [Dr. Underhill] Now other than that, there are various plans to help people on the reservations, aren't there, and one of them is the court of claims. I wonder if you'd tell us anything about that, Dr. Rifle. What, tThe Indians are getting money from the government and just what is the arrangement? [Dr. Rifle] Well, most tribes have claims against the federal government for a violation of treaty provisions. [Dr. Underhill] They weren't paid all that they were promised. [Dr. Rifle] They weren't paid all they were promised, and so these were being considered in the US Court of Claims and then there was a movement to increase the, step up the

adjudication of these claims and this other Indian court of the....[Dr. Underhill] Is it called the Court of Claims? [Dr. Rifle] No it's, I've forgotten the name of it just now,but this special provision was set up in the court to adjudicate these claims and this was about. 12 years ago. And it was time and not 10 years but they found they hadn't gotten to them, gotten to all of them, so they've extended the time and some tribes have gotten some very fine considerations. And as a result, have received large amounts of money, but these are just a few of the more than 200 tribes that feel they have something to be adjudicated in the courts. [Dr. Underhill] And it was quite true, our government was very young and unskilled when these treaties were made with and the promise that something should be done as long as grass grows and water runs, of course, was impossible promise. Ask any nation. (talk overlaps) [Dr. Rifle] You mentioned at the outset, I think , maybe what the public ought to, might get a

misunderstanding, you said, that the Indian reservation was government -owned land. Actually I think what you meant, Dr. Underhill, was that this land, it either belongs to the tribe or to individual members of the tribe. and the title to the land is in the name of the United States, but held in trust for the individual or for the tribal hold. [Dr. Underhill] Now we haven't talked any about the allotting of land to individual Indians, it's a very elaborate subject, and I think we better not try to go into it. It was true that certain amounts of land were given to individuals more than 50 years ago, and they didn't work out. The Indians at that time were not well enough acquainted with our land use and our land ownership ideas so they sold it right off or else it was willed into fractions smaller and smaller till it's still almost unusable now. [Dr. Rifle] Well it's the one thing too that's happening, is that the people, the older people who had this land given to them by their tribe, and which they hold in their own name, except that the federal government holds it for them in trust ,have a right now to sell

it, same as they (unintelligible) [Dr. Underhill] and do you think they're selling it? [Dr. Rifle] And they are selling it as they feel that they'd like to dispose of it, because there isn't enough in say a hundred sixty acres or 80 acres or even 360 acres or 320 acres to provide a decent income, and the older people feel, well, I'm not going to be living long and I'd like, rather than continue on old age assistance, dispose of this little piece of property and live fairly decently in my remaining days. [Dr. Underhill] Of course whren this arrangement was made, America was a land of small farms. And within the 100 years that's gone by, it's changed to an industrial country and to a time when a small farm simply cannot be operated, except under unusual circumstances. Now let's say a word about schools also. Do you find that the people who come to Denver have enough schooling to take skilled jobs or must they all take unskilled work? [Dr. Rifle] Some of them may have enough schooling for skilled jobs and some of them don't. I'd say the average educational level of the folks who come to Denver is probably seventh or eighth grade. We have occasionally folks who have

a couple years college coming here. And some of them, of course, with only a fourth or fifth grade education. [Dr. Underhill] I think the school situation is very different from what it was 25 years ago, isn't it? [Dr. Rifle] It's definitely improved. [Dr. Underhill] At that time Indians really didn't want to go to school. Some, just a few, understood what it was about and the rest of them thought why should we learn this white man's stuff? it's not the life we want to live. They've changed very much since the second world war, I think. [Dr. Rifle] They went out and saw how things were on the outside so to speak and they came back to the reservation I think with some definite ideas about improvement in their way of life and things they would like. [Dr. Underhill] So, in the time since the reservations were set up, that. I think that both whites and Indians have changed a great deal, that the arrangements made a hundred years ago, now we find them very poor indeed, but for that time, they were all the wisdom anybody had, really, as good as was being done in Africa and India, perhaps. The whites have learned since then what

Indians can do and Indians have also changed and come to be interested in education, to be interested in a life outside the reservation. Now do you, Dr. Rifle, do you think that the old customs of Indians that we do find very beautiful interesting, can they be kept up, even if nobody interfered, if we just said to the Indians, go on,live your own way, we'll help you do it. Would they keep on with the very old ways that they used to have? [Dr. Rifle] Oh, I think large numbers of them would have to be modified a great deal. Methods in child rearing, for example, methods of food preparation. All would be modified. [Dr. Uderhill] property, too, wouldn't it? [Dr. Rifle] Property ownership and family structures, a lot of these things, of necessity would be modified because of the social environment which they find themselves. But there will be a lot of things that I think will tend to continue, like not being so over-hurried

to a point where you get a high rate of ulceration for example. (laughter) (overlapping comments) [Dr. Rifle] think of other people besides ourselves. I think these are some values that will persist. [Dr. Underhill] We should certainly hope it. The Schools of course, nobody can do very much in that way except the white people who are the neighbors of Indians, and really I suppose that what we need now is more real neighborliness between the white citizens and the Indian citizens, not just legal equality but social and friendly neighborly equality. I could wish that everybody who has heard these programs about Indians would feel a little more acquainted with Indians, a little more appreciation of what their values have been and the things that they have been able to give to our culture as well as what we have given to them. So we are leaving the Indians of the United States, for the present, asking

people at least to realize that there is an Indian problem, and that there is an Indian past of great value to the country. And that we have now fellow Indian citizens who in future are going to be of great value to the country. so, with that we're going. (native singing) (native singing) (native singing) I am.