The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer

JIM LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer. On the NewsHour tonight: The continuing bombing and refugee crisis over Kosovo -- we'll have a summary report; a NewsMaker interview with NATO Secretary- General Javier Solana; a discussion among US and other refugee officials; and a report from Oregon on teaching children about war. Then, before we go, Poet Laureate Robert Pinsky shares some words on the same subject. We'll have the other news of this Monday at the end of the program tonight.

FOCUS - OPERATION ALLIED FORCE

JIM LEHRER: The air war against Yugoslavia intensified today, and so did the refugee crisis. NATO pilots took advantage of clear weather to pound Serbian military targets. International relief agencies rushed to provide food and shelter for refugees, and an airlift began to take them to temporary settlements. Tom Bearden again has our opening summary report.

TOM BEARDEN: It's becoming a race against disease and death. NATO and international relief organizations are desperately trying to address the needs of hundreds of thousands of refugees stranded in cold and muddy no-man's zones on the southern borders of Kosovo. Conditions are appalling, and the United Nations High Commission says still more are coming.

PAULA GHEDINI, UNHCR Spokeswoman: What the new arrivals are indicating is that there may be up to 50,000 coming within the next few days, immediately.

TOM BEARDEN: NATO says this flood of humanity continues because Serbian military and special police forces are still rounding up ethnic Albanian Kosovars and herding them toward the borders, people like this young boy. He says he's from the capital of Kosovo, Pristina; that police separated him from his family, leaving him alone and not knowing where to go. NATO countries are responding with a massive humanitarian air bridge to fly food and other emergency supplies. This afternoon, President Clinton said the US would be a major contributor to that effort.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: We've got to do all we can to aid the victims of Mr. Milosevic's expulsion policy. Before the Serbian offensive began, we pre-positioned 36,000 metric tons of food in the region, enough to feed half a million people for three months. We worked with the United Nations to ready lifesaving supplies at Kosovo's borders in Macedonia, but it is impossible to prepare fully for the chaos that this kind of cruelty inevitably creates. We now have committed another $50 million, over and above the $100 million we had provided before the current crisis. Also, at our urging, NATO has put its 11,000 troops in Macedonia to work addressing the humanitarian crisis. It is planning to destroy -- deploy several thousand troops to Albania, not only to provide aid, but to provide security for relief operations. We've begun shipping 500,000 humanitarian daily rations for refugees in Albania, the first of which arrived in Tirana yesterday. Today, a large shipment was delivered to Italy by the first of eight 747 flights. We'll be flying ten missions daily by C-130 aircraft to Italy -- from Italy to Tirana, and taking supplies from there to the border by helicopter. The first of four shipments of tents for Albania will be flown from Travis Air Force Base in California soon. We're also shipping supplies out of bases in Germany for Macedonia, and we're preparing an additional 600,000 daily rations for that country.

TOM BEARDEN: But the President said the relief efforts also needed help from private citizens.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: We've established an 800 number. It's 1-800-USAID-RELIEF. Any American can call and make contributions to private humanitarian organizations, and can get information about the private organizations that are providing relief. Many of them are represented in this room today, by the people who are sitting here, and I want to thank all of them from the bottom of my heart for their commitment and their tireless efforts. Americans all over this country want to know what they can do. I can tell you right now in the short run, with all those people building up at the borders, the most important thing the American people can do right now is to make financial contributions to these organizations. They are there, they're organized, they know who the people are; they know how to deliver the relief, and we can get it done. We do need help; we're doing all we can; we need more help.

TOM BEARDEN: In an effort to relieve the pressure on Albania and Macedonia, several NATO member countries have pledged to accept more than 100,000 refugees for temporary relocation.

CHRISTOPHER HILL, US Envoy: Today's problem is to make sure these people are safe and under tents, and get them some food and water, and that's happening. And we're also looking at how to get them out of here as soon as possible, on to some receiving countries, and we expect to see that process start today.

TOM BEARDEN: Germany has pledged to accept 40,000 people; Turkey, 20,000; Norway and Romania, 6,000; and Canada and Greece will each take 5,000. President Clinton says the US will also participate.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: As others do their part, we should be prepared to do ours as well. Today I can say that we are prepared to accept up to 20,000 refugees. Our goal is to take some of the burden off the struggling front-line nations.

TOM BEARDEN: The refugees would not be taken to the Continental United States, but instead to Guantanamo, Cuba, a US Naval base that has housed thousands of Cuban and Haitian refugees in the past. There has also been discussion about using facilities on the Pacific Island of Guam, which has housed Vietnamese and Kurdish refugees. On the military front, Air Commodore David Wilby said NATO was taking advantage of better weather over Yugoslavia to continue the air assault.

AIR COMMODORE DAVID WILBY, NATO Military spokesman: We will capitalize on the clear weather to attack strategic and operational targets throughout the operational area. I have only one cockpit video for you today, which is pretty self-explanatory. But you will see, towards the end of the clip, two bombs coming in from the right hand side - please watch -- coming in from 3 o'clock. In Belgrade, we also hit an important headquarters of the FRI air defense forces. I told you yesterday of the destruction of the Security Institute, and today I can show you before-and-after reconnaissance pictures of that target. As you can see, it was heavily damaged. We also targeted Serbian forces in the field.

TOM BEARDEN: NATO will intensify those attacks with additional American weapons, which will shortly be en route from Germany. 24 Apache attack helicopters will be dispatched to Albania. The helicopters carry a variety of rockets, antitank missiles, and guns, and are expected to be more effective against ground forces, despite bad weather. But since they also fly very low, they're also more vulnerable to ground fire than faster, higher-flying jets. The US is also sending 18 multiple-launch rocket systems, which have medium- and long- range antipersonnel rockets. Some 2,600 American troops will operate these systems, and they will be equipped with Bradley armored personnel carriers. The President said it was within the power of the Yugoslav President, Slobodan Milosevic, to halt the build-up.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Mr. Milosevic has created a humanitarian disaster in Kosovo. He could end it today by stopping the killing. He could end the bombing, he could end the suffering of the refugees, by withdrawing from Kosovo his military police and paramilitary forces, by accepting the deployment of an international security force, and making it possible for all refugees to return as we move toward a political framework for Kosovo on the basis of the Rambouillet Accords. But more empty promises and token half measures won't do the job. A commitment to cease killing and a Kosovo denied its freedom and devoid of its people is not acceptable. If Mr. Milosevic does not do what is necessary, NATO will continue an air campaign. It will be undiminished, unceasing, and unrelenting. It will inflict such damage that either he will change his calculations, or we will seriously diminish his capacity to maintain his grip and impose his control on Kosovo.

TOM BEARDEN: In Yugoslavia, state television broadcast video of a meeting between the Russian ambassador to that country and the ethnic Albanian leader Ibrahim Rugova. Rugova was a member of the Kosovar delegation to the peace talks that collapsed last month. Serb television reported Rugova called for an end to NATO air strikes, but NATO said Serb TV had altered his words. Serbian television continued virtually round-the-clock broadcasts of pictures of the aftermath of the NATO bombings. In the city of Nic, 100 miles north of Belgrade, Cruise missiles struck an army command center. Yugoslav TV said this cigarette factory, one of the largest in Europe, was also hit. In Belgrade, itself, missiles struck an Air Force headquarters, which was known to have been evacuated before the attack. Army barracks and headquarters buildings were also struck in the suburbs of Belgrade. In the neighboring province of Montenegro some 6,000 people vented their anger at NATO, staging a pro-Serbian rally in the center of the capital city. Reports are Montenegro's pro-western authorities, under severe pressure since the air strikes began, fear an eruption of violence that might spark attacks on the government. US policy in Kosovo has been under attack by a growing chorus of critics for several days. But this afternoon, the President said the US had no choice but to act.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: We have a lot of tough questions to answer about this operation, and I am quite sure that we cannot answer every one to everyone's satisfaction. But I would far rather be standing here answering these questions with these people, talking about this endeavor, than I would to be standing here having you ask me why we are permitting a wholesale ethnic slaughter and ethnic cleansing and the creation of hundreds of thousands of refugees, and not lifting a finger to do anything about it.

NEWSMAKER

JIM LEHRER: Now, a NewsMaker interview with NATO Secretary-General Javier Solana. I talked with him late this morning Eastern Daylight Time.

NEWSMAKER

JIM LEHRER: Mr. Secretary-General, welcome.

JAVIER SOLANO: Good morning. How are you?

JIM LEHRER: Fine, sir. Sir, in general terms, what has the NATO air campaign accomplished thus far?

JAVIER SOLANO: The NATO campaign is going according to plans. We have had some days of bad weather that has prevented to achieve all the objectives. In general terms, the campaign is going as was defined and as planned.

JIM LEHRER: What has it accomplished?

JAVIER SOLANO: Well, it has accomplished -- is in the first phase, as you know, it was basically to damage the air defenses of the country. And the second phase started a few days ago to try to damage as much as possible the war machine of Milosevic, the war machine of the Serbian army and the Serbian police.

JIM LEHRER: Now, when you say it's gone has planned, the large-scale exodus by the ethnic Albanians was not part of the plan, was it?

JAVIER SOLANO: Our responsibility was to try to stop the criminal activity of Milosevic. As you know, this criminal activity was planned way before our first air strike. In fact, the air strike was a response to the behavior President Milosevic has been planning for months and this criminal behavior. The question of the exodus of refugees is nothing which is dramatically new, unfortunately. It has been taking place for months. It is true that the last few days the behavior of Milosevic has achieved levels of criminality that no rational man could have believed. And that is why the action has increased in numbers, and that is why the alliance and all the allied countries are doing its utmost to stop this massacre first and then to help the consequences of the massacre of Milosevic; therefore, we have at this point two objectives: first, to do as much damage as possible to the war machinery; and second, to help as much as possible the consequences of massacres which are the refugees.

JIM LEHRER: All right, now, the refugee camp now, there are some figures out today, 44,000, another 44,000 left yesterday, is that correct?

JAVIER SOLANO: Well, the figures that are produced by the Organization of the UN are more or less like that. I would not be prepared at this point to be precise on the figures. The figures are being given by the UNHCR, the agents of refugees, but, unfortunately, more or less, are like the ones you have just given.

JIM LEHRER: Yes. But your spokesman, the NATO Spokesman, Jamie Shea, said this morning that 360,000, an estimated 360,000 ethic Albanians have left Kosovo in the last two weeks since the bombing began, is that, that's a correct figure?

JAVIER SOLANO: It, more or less - more or less, that is the figure we have on this point, although it's very difficult to be absolutely precise. The basic counting and the basic figures are provided by the agents of refugees of the UN, but, more or less, are the same that we have at this point, yes.

JIM LEHRER: Now, NATO is stepping in, as you said, to try to assist these refugees. Specifically, what is NATO going to do about it?

JAVIER SOLANO: What NATO is not going to do it is already doing. As you know, we have troops deployed already in Macedonia; we are going to deploy troops in this very moment in Albania to do whatever we can; we are not going to spare any effort to put all the military capabilities that we have to the service of the humanitarian relief. NATO and NATO countries are doing the utmost with no spare effort to help the humanitarian catastrophe that we cannot forget had been created by Milosevic's behavior.

JIM LEHRER: And that includes, does it not, taking some of those refugees from Macedonia and Albania to other countries nearby, is that correct?

JAVIER SOLANO: Well, as you know, many, many countries, not only countries that belong to NATO, but also partner countries, are offering their possibility of receiving in their countries some refugees. Now, we would like to have as much as possible to help - in particular the Macedonian government - to handle the humanitarian crisis, and, therefore, some of these refugees will be good to take into other countries, but the principle that we'd like to defend as much as possible is that these refugees do have the right to return to their homes, to return to their country, and, therefore, we would not like to see these refugees going very far away from the region where they should return. So this is the violence we want to strike, to relax the situation in Macedonia and Albania, but at the same time have the commitment, the guarantee that these people had the right in the international community obligation to allow them to return to his country.

JIM LEHRER: You use the word "guarantee." NATO will guarantee that these folks will be allowed or will be able to return to Kosovo?

JAVIER SOLANO: It is my point that the international community, of course, including NATO, should guarantee that these people that have been forced out of their country by the criminal atrocities of Milosevic to have the guarantee that they can return as they so wish to their country. Yes.

JIM LEHRER: And that is now one of the priority goals of the NATO operation?

JAVIER SOLANO: Well, at this point, the priority goal is double - as far as the consequences of the Milosevic actions, they are for the refugees to help them as much as possible, with all our capabilities, capabilities of NATO, the capabilities of the NATO countries, and capabilities, also, of the organization of the United Nations, UNHCR, the European Union, the OSCE, all the international communities together in a very well coordinated manner that had started two days ago here in Brussels. And, of course, here at the same time we are going to continue striking to damage the machinery of criminal - the criminal machinery that Milosevic has put forward to really kill and expel the thousands and thousands of people from Kosovo.

JIM LEHRER: And you believe that can - you still believe that can be done byair strikes alone?

JAVIER SOLANO: I think that is absolutely necessary to continue with the air campaign, and the air campaign is what can really damage at this point in a more important manner the capabilities that the Serb army and the paramilitary forces do have. That is our opinion. That is the opinion of all the countries that belong to NATO, and we have to succeed with the air campaign to stop - and I would like to say a behavior that nobody could have even thought in the most difficult nights of nightmare - the behavior of somebody like President Milosevic at the end of the 20th century.

JIM LEHRER: As you know, Mr. Secretary-General, here in the United States, at least, the debate has gone beyond that, that former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, among others, said on this program Friday night, for instance, that victory is the only alternative for NATO and whatever it takes. Ground forces, in addition to air strikes, victory must be attained by NATO. Do you agree with that as a general premise?

JAVIER SOLANO: I agree. I agree completely that victory is the only outcome, and victory not only for NATO, victory for the values that we want to defend, the countries that belong to NATO, the people of the countries that belong to NATO, and many other citizens of the world that cannot live with this behavior of somebody in the European territory at the end of the 20th century; therefore, victory is the only thing, the only exit of this conflict, and victory means to uphold the values that civilized people in the world want to have as we enter into the 21st century. Yes, I agree with that.

JIM LEHRER: Now, Winston Churchill, who is the grandson of "the" Winston Churchill, the prime minister of Great Britain in World War II, the grandson was a member of the parliament in Britain, wrote a piece that appeared in the "Wall Street Journal" here in the United States, and let me read you how it ends: "The sooner that the alliance's" - he's talking about NATO - "The sooner the alliance's political leadership recognizes that the operations in Yugoslavia must now enter the phase of ground warfare and that Kosovo will ultimately become a free, independent nation the sooner the bloodshed and suffering will be ended." Is he right?

JAVIER SOLANO: Well, I have great respect for what he represents and his thinking, but at this point the countries that belong to NATO, they have a slight different approach. And the approach is that at this point we are not in the position to deploy troops at this point to the ground; we want first to have all the air campaign finished, to try to have a cease-fire, and, therefore, after that to deploy the troops, which are already prepared, already prepared to guarantee that, among other things, that the refugees return to their country, if they so wish. As far as the final stages of Kosovo, the only position, the common position of the international community on this point is what was agreed in the Rambouillet Agreement, or in the measures in the Rambouillet Agreement, and it goes through in the direction of a very profound self-government for Kosovo, and not any other - any other position has been taken by the international community. But it's true that the evolution of the situation on the ground, the behavior of President Milosevic is so dramatic that there may be an event that we will have to think about some other alternative. At this point, the agreement that was signed by the Kosovars in Rambouillet should be the basis of the discussions for a final solution to the crisis.

JIM LEHRER: You were, of course, involved in all of the discussions that led up to the decision to launch this air strike campaign. Are you personally surprised or whatever word you would want to use here about the fact that Milosevic continues to do what he's been doing in spite of the NATO air attacks after almost two weeks now?

JAVIER SOLANO: Well, I'm not surprised at what Milosevic is doing. I've been involved in the crisis in the Balkans since 1992. I know fairly well what has been the war in Bosnia, the behavior of President Milosevic, and in the war against Croatia and the war against Bosnia - we cannot forget that Milosevic is not a new personality in this crisis in the Balkans. What he is doing now is something that goes beyond anybody could have imagined, the behavior, the cruelty, the manner in which he is deporting people, that is what it is - it's a deportation of people, of people of his country - it's something that to me probably is the only small surprise that I've had. How much cruelty could be in somebody at the turn of the century?

JIM LEHRER: Mr. Secretary-General, one decision-making question, the United States has offered to send 25 Apache helicopters to the NATO force to assist in attacks on Serb ground forces, tanks, et cetera, that there seems to be some confusion about whether NATO wants to use these helicopters or the ambassadors, having made a political decision yet. Can you clarify where matters stand on the helicopters?

JAVIER SOLANO: Yes. I would like to, with pleasure. Of course, we welcome very much the commitment of the American people, the administration, President Clinton, to continue to providing the help through new assets, assets that will be very, very important to do what we want to do, to damage as much as possible the war machinery of President Milosevic; therefore, we welcome very much all the NATO countries, we welcome very much the decision of the American administration, and President Clinton. Yes, we welcome very much.

JIM LEHRER: Has the decision been made whether or not to use these 25 helicopters? Has NATO accepted the offer, in other words?

JAVIER SOLANO: The decision has been made - a decision has been made. We are at this moment in consultations with the government as to whether the helicopters will be deployed, and in a question of minutes I would say the answer will be given, but I can tell you that everybody, it looks - this decision of President Clinton with great satisfaction.

JIM LEHRER: But the Albanian government you're referring to specifically, that's where they'd be used, correct?

JAVIER SOLANO: Yes.

JIM LEHRER: All right. But, in other words, there's no problem -

JAVIER SOLANO: Yes.

JIM LEHRER: There's no problem here, right? In other words, those helicopters aren't going to be used -

JAVIER SOLANO: No. On the contrary. Right. On the contrary, there's very, very profound gratitude for the contribution and assets of your government.

JIM LEHRER: Okay. Because the question has been raised about why were ambassadors and political people making decisions that were basically military decisions, but that's not a problem?

JAVIER SOLANO: No, not at all. The only political decision that has to be taken and has already been taken is a decision about allowing military assets to belong to the NATO countries - in this particular case to your country - to be deployed in countries which are not NATO members. That is the only decision that has to be taken; it has already been taken.

JIM LEHRER: Now, should that be read as - some people are reading it here as a step toward the introduction of ground forces - should that be read that way?

JAVIER SOLANO: Well, I don't think that this is interpretation - the correct interpretation. I think that your administration, the American administration explained very clearly yesterday that this is a new asset to be provided in order to achieve the same objective, the objective of damaging and destroying, if possible, the military machine. At the level we are now after several days of air campaign, it could be of great help to have these new assets, Apache helicopters, to continue in the same mission - destroying and damaging as much as possible the machinery of Milosevic.

JIM LEHRER: Back to the general and finally, Mr. Secretary-General, is there any question in your mind that the 19 members of the NATO alliance have the wherewithal and the will to see this thing through to a conclusion that will, in fact, do all the things that you and others have outlined?

JAVIER SOLANO: I can tell you that I chair the North Atlantic Council every day, and some days I share two meetings, and I can tell you that all the countries, the 19 allies at this point, are absolutely together, behind the decision that we had taken several days ago, and they are absolutely determined to see this through to the victory.

JIM LEHRER: Mr. Secretary-General, thank you very much.

JAVIER SOLANO: Thank you very much.

JIM LEHRER: And since that interview this morning, Solana did receive preliminary approval from Albania to deploy those Apache helicopters, NATO officials told the NewsHour. And the first airlift of Kosovo refugees took place. Hundreds were flown to Turkey.

FOCUS - EMERGENCY EFFORT

JIM LEHRER: And more now on that Kosovo refugee story. Tim Ewart of Independent Television News begins.

TIM EWART: This is the border between Kosovo and Macedonia, a vision more hellish with every passing day. The Macedonian government now estimates that 115,000 people are trying to cross, people they don't want, refugees who they say should be NATO's problem. The first group of refugees were at last allowed to move to a camp run by NATO forces. As British soldiers handed out food, there was anger at what many see as Macedonian indifference. Four thousand people are in the care of NATO tonight, their suffering alleviated, although far from over. This camp is at last offering shelter to some of the refugees. It's a start, albeit a small one. But across those hills on the border with Kosovo, there remain scenes of almost unimaginable misery. The days ahead here are awful to contemplate. NATO countries are talking of airlifts on the clogged roads out of Kosovo; that seems like a distant dream.

JIM LEHRER: And Margaret Warner takes it from there.

MARGARET WARNER: Three perspectives now on NATO's decision to relocate some 100,000 ethnic Albanian refugees. Brian Atwood is head of the Agency for International Development or AID. President Clinton just named him to coordinate the US refugee rescue effort. Karen AbuZayd is head of the US regional office for the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, which will help coordinate the relocation program. And Bill Frelick, senior policy analyst at the U.S. Committee for Refugees, a private, non-profit group.

MARGARET WARNER: Brian Atwood, starting with you, give us a sense of how this program is going to work. How soon will we see it on a really massive scale? How long will it take to move 100,000 refugees?

BRIAN ATWOOD: Well, it started today. And let me say at the outset that this is not the kind of a program that we like to run. The relocation effort is a temporary one, and these people will be temporarily relocated. They all want to go home. And we expect that they will be going home. The problem is, as you just saw on your show, this is a very serious tragedy on the border of Macedonia. We want to get access to those refugees. The Macedonian government is obviously very sensitive about all of these people coming into their country. Clearly their infrastructure is overwhelmed but there are political ramifications as well. So, we have been negotiating with the Macedonian government. Yesterday, Strobe Talbot and Julia Taft were there, and I believe we're beginning to see some relief.

MARGARET WARNER: Explain Strobe Talbot and Julia Taft, both senior -

BRIAN ATWOOD: That's the Deputy Secretary of State and Julia Taft is the head of the refugee office at the State Department. Today we saw approximately 10,000 people leave this no man's land, as we come to call it, and we're beginning to see some relief there.

MARGARET WARNER: You're talking about now just leaving this sort of, as you said, no man's land that's on the border, and they actually were moved into Macedonia.

BRIAN ATWOOD: They were moved to Macedonia. Some were moved to Turkey, approximately 1300, approximately 1300, five or six commercial flights to Turkey. And we'll see more of this. We're getting agreement from European countries on the numbers that they will take in their countries. And we, of course, have agreed to take some 20,000 of these refugees here on a temporary basis again. But we right now have the problem of trying to get supplies in to people who are hungry and who have medical problems and the like. And we've got to negotiate with the governments in the region. As the President announced today, we've started an air bridge of logistical supplies from Italy. We believe that we're beginning to get ahead of this problem. Obviously, it was a massive tragedy, unlike anything we've seen in Europe since World War II.

MARGARET WARNER: Who will be relocated and who will stay and who will make that decision?

BRIAN ATWOOD: Most of the refugees that are coming into Macedonia will be relocated. We estimate -

MARGARET WARNER: So the priority will go there-- excuse me for interrupting.

BRIAN ATWOOD: Right.

MARGARET WARNER: But just to be clear, rather than those who are coming in to Albania or Montenegro.

BRIAN ATWOOD: That's the thinking as of now. But, again we want to coordinate this very carefully with the countries in the region but the Albanian government has been obviously receiving their fellow Albanians from Kosovo and with less political problems and infrastructure problems to date, although obviously we've got people in very, very mountainous areas with a single road from Tirana, to this region in northern Albania. So we've got some serious problems we have to overcome.

MARGARET WARNER: But you were saying so most of them will be those who have massed in the Macedonia-Kosovo border?

BRIAN ATWOOD: That's right.

MARGARET WARNER: What would you add to that in terms of what it will take to get this going and how quickly it will really get underway in a big way?

KAREN ABU ZAYD: Well, I think it will take a few days to get it all. organized. As Brian said, this is certainly one of our least priorities for what to do with refugees, moving them away from the first countries of asylum, the neighboring countries and the refugees themselves are very keen to stay where they are near their land. Also, we want to emphasize the temporary nature of this, that the people do come back again. And you asked a good question is, how do you decide which 100,000 go? We're doing this because we want to save their lives; we want to get them into Macedonia and, therefore, out of Macedonia because Macedonia is demanding, and also, as my colleagues in Geneva said to save Macedonia. This is the reason we've resorted to this. But it will be difficult to select the people. There have to be some criteria. The people should go voluntarily, only those who want to go. And we want to keep families together. Right now we think we probably should take people who are well enough to go, not the medically vulnerable. But this is still being discussed, so there are lots of issues that need to be decided first.

MARGARET WARNER: What do you make of this NATO plan?

BILL FRELICK: Well, I think that the question of keeping families intact is very important, and of course it has to be voluntary. The refugees that I spoke to in Northern Albania -- this was late last year-- to a person all wanted to return. And in many cases when I was talking to them, it is highly inaccessible area, as Brian indicated -- one ferry, one road. The road is not in very good condition. I was asking people, why not take the ferry? Why don't you go into Central Albania? And they're saying because, "My son is right across the border; my husband is fighting." The men are going to stay and they're going to fight. And almost any family I can conceive of that would be taken out would not be an intact family, would not be a whole family. So, almost of necessity we're talking about a very temporary system, a set-up here, where the refugees themselves are intent on returning, where the international community is committed to their return. So this is a very different program than the traditional refugee response where resettlement is seen as a durable solution, where resettlement is seen as the permanent acceptance of exile. And here we have a use of a settlement, which we think of in terms of permanent settlement used on a temporary basis. This is pretty much unprecedented.

MARGARET WARNER: Have you done any canvassing of the refugees there to find out how many really would want to go? I mean, obviously you can't have talked to 100,000 people? Do you have any sense?

KAREN ABU ZAYD: I think as Bill has just said, all the refugees we've talked to so far are saying they don't want to go. So, that's what we have to find out. We have to convince them that this is the only solution for them at this moment.

MARGARET WARNER: Let's talk about the US situation. Ken Bacon, the Pentagon spokesman, said today that you all were leaning towards using Guantanamo Base in Cuba. Why there? Why not on the mainland of the U.S.?

BRIAN ATWOOD: No decision has been made yet, though I think that's right that we are leaning in that direction. But that facility has been used in the past, of course, for refugees who are there on a temporary basis. We want to emphasize that this is a temporary location. I think if they were to relocate in the United States, it would be more difficult to emphasize that.

MARGARET WARNER: Why?

BRIAN ATWOOD: Well, I think because we've had facilities in Guantanamo that have been used in the past. And this may be the best location, although as I mentioned before, we haven't made that decision yet.

MARGARET WARNER: What do you make of - I mean, well, let me ask you this: Is there an agreement among the NATO countries how these refugees will be taken care of? Are they always going to be in bases, kept together, warehoused, or each country do what it likes?

KAREN ABU ZAYD: There will be different programs,I believe. It is still being discussed. There was a long, all day meeting in Geneva. There will be more confirmation of numbers in places tomorrow, I believe, but some places they will not put them in the camps. But, again on the family reunification issue, there are families that people have in Europe that they'd like to join and that the families would like them to join them. So, we hope that that would be a first priority too rather than putting them in facility somewhere.

MARGARET WARNER: If some who come to Guantanamo Bay, if they have relatives in the United States who want to take them in, would they be allowed to do that?

BRIAN ATWOOD: I'm not sure I know the answer to that question at this point. I think we have to see exactly who is going to be there and what their desires are. But I think that the idea would be that this is not a long haul situation, that they will be there for a very short period of time. Again, no one knows but one would anticipate that.

MARGARET WARNER: What's your thought on this how you take care of them when they get where they're going?

BILL FRELICK: Well, the experience at Guantanamo is not a happy one. There were Haitian refugees and Cuban refugees that were brought there against their will. They were interdicted by the Coast Guard and held. I was in Guantanamo on several occasions-- in 1994 and 1995 -- to see coils of concertina wire not only in the perimeter of the camp but going right down the middle of the camp. It's not a place you would want your children to be playing for fear that they would slice themselves up in one of the camp's watchtowers. It looked like a POW camp, rather than a refugee camp. And I think that the military has done a terrific job on short notice in many instances in providing the basics of shelter and food and medical care. But when it comes to creating a livable environment, they need some civilian help. I would give them about a six-month window here where there's a honeymoon period where people have a sense of hope that the situation at home is being addressed, that they might be able to return. But after that point, if there's a sense that this is indeterminate, then you have a whole slew of social and psychological problems that occur, that can be very serious, where people begin to feel, are we the next Palestinian generation and we're going to be in camps for 40 years or what have you?

BRIAN ATWOOD: Margaret, let me just say that one of the reasons we have not made a decision about Guantanamo is because wherever we put people, we want to make sure that it is a hospitable environment. And, if it were to be Guantanamo, there would be a great deal of work that needs to be done to make the facilities acceptable.

MARGARET WARNER: But would the United States Government be prepared to not have them housed in that kind of a facility where essentially they're penned in, that's what it sounds like you're saying.

BRIAN ATWOOD: Well, look, the decision was made to take 20,000 of these refugees just yesterday or the day before, there has not been a lot of time to consider this. We don't want people to feel penned in. These are the victims of the tragedy of a dictator in Europe. We clearly want them to understand that they are guests while they're here and they're only going to be here temporarily.

MARGARET WARNER: Yet, you just heard Secretary-General Solana tell Jim that at the same time they don't want the refugees dispersed widely because it will be harder to get them back.

KAREN ABU ZAYD: Well, one of the conditions, apparently, that is being set out for all the countries who are taking them is that they also be willing to bring them back. Now, that's a problem for some countries that don't have a great lot of resources who are already asking for help from other countries even to set up the facilities: Greece, Turkey. Greece, for example, has said they're happy to take 6,000 but they want them in a camp run by UNHCR, with UNHCR logos, so it's clear that they are refugees, temporarily there, and will be moving again.

MARGARET WARNER: Any other countries set forth certain sort of conditions like that?

KAREN ABU ZAYD: Not that I know of.

MARGARET WARNER: In Germany, what's been the experience, because I noticed Germany's taking the largest group, 40,000?

BILL FRELICK: Well, Germany of course has the experience of having taken the largest number of Bosnian refugees as well. Germany was very insistent on a temporary protection regime saying that the refugees are expected to return, that they have to return to Bosnia. I don't want to suggest that the situations are exactly the same between the two countries. But it's in part based on that experience that I think the Germans and some of the other Europeans have been reluctant to openly declare their receptivity up until now. Somebody has done a good job of negotiating to get them to come around on that.

MARGARET WARNER: A final quick question to you: 100,000 Is about a quarter of the numbers that have left so far. The estimates are another half million could be coming out. Do you think this 100,000 relocation will have to grow?

BRIAN ATWOOD: I hope not. We have up to 160,000 people. It may grow to as many as 750 or a million people. We're clearly going to have to start to prepare for the long haul and for many more refugees. I hope not but it's possible.

MARGARET WARNER: All right. Thank you all three very much.

KAREN ABU ZAYD: Thank you.

FOCUS - TEACHING ABOUT KOSOVO

JIM LEHRER: Teaching schoolchildren about this war; Lee Hochberg of Oregon Public Broadcasting reports from Portland.

TOM McKENNA, High School Teacher: One of the things, obviously, we have to clear up is what is Kosovo? Is it a city? Is it a country? Why is it okay for American to drop bombs in another country? Yes.

LEE HOCHBERG: Teachers across America have been asking questions like this since the NATO bombing started. Often they've gotten this type of answer.

STUDENT: Isn't there like a guy that doesn't like the Kosovos or whatever and he's like murdering them?

LEE HOCHBERG: Social Studies Teacher Tom McKenna at Portland's Franklin High School says few of his students even know what NATO is, so helping them make sense of the Kosovo crisis has been confounding.

TOM McKENNA: They don't have the background of knowledge that is necessary to be able to look at an historical event to understand what it means, very little, if any, world history, very little sense of where this place is or what it is.

TOM McKENNA: [teaching students] Can anybody tell me anything that happened there in Bosnia, tell me anything at all that happened in Bosnia?

LEE HOCHBERG: McKenna found he needed to invoke the memory of the Nazi Holocaust to make this latest ethnic cleansing tangible for students.

TOM McKENNA: [teaching students] How many people here have studied the Holocaust?

STUDENT: I have.

TOM McKENNA: Given that, just imagine that, you know, atrocities are being committed against human beings. The Yugoslav Army along with the Serbian police and paramilitary groups are going into Albanian communities, committing acts of rape and murder against people because they've committed the crime of being of a certain ethnic group.

STUDENT: So this is just like what happened in the Holocaust?

TOM McKENNA: Well, it has that capability for sure.

LEE HOCHBERG: Younger children at Portland's Chapman Elementary School were also trying to understand the crisis.

STUDENT: It's so much like the Holocaust, it's really scary. People must just be traumatized for life because, you know, they're being threatened.

JIM MANGAN, Elementary School Teacher: They do relate it to the Holocaust and Hitler, and you know especially the Jewish students in this classroom, you know, feel very strongly and they certainly know their history.

SPOKESMAN: Refugees collect food collected from people who live there. That's where we found 12-year-old, Dejan. Serbs forced him at gun point from his home and then burnt it to the ground.

LEE HOCHBERG: These fourth and fifth graders say they've learned a lot about Kosovo in the last week from television, the Internet, and their parents. They've been haunted by tragic stories of Kosovans their age.

STUDENT: My mom told me that she heard on the news that the Serbs killed the teacher right in front of her students. And that would be gross.

STUDENT: Some people have like seen their parents being killed and a lot of stuff that is just very scary.

STUDENT: They get put in trucks with blankets, but it looks like it is really cold weather there and they're still cold with the blankets. And, if I was forced out of my home, I'd be terrified. I wouldn't know what to do; I wouldn't know where to go.

LEE HOCHBERG: For all their innocence, some students in a few short days of study developed critical opinions about NATO bombing.

JIM MANGAN: Is it peace making? Is that going to promote peace or not?

STUDENT: I don't think it's working that well, and I don't think it's promoting too much peace to the ethnic Albanians because they're still making them flee.

STUDENT: They're bombing because they want Slobodan Milosevic to stop killing the ethnic Albanians. And so the effect of that is he's killing more ethnic Albanians.

LEE HOCHBERG: The children learned from their teachers that World War I broke out in this region of Europe. They fear the new Balkan conflict could lead to another world war.

STUDENT: If it did turn into a World War III, would they start bombing around Oregon?

STUDENT: I'm scared because I could lose my house, so could a lot of my friends, my uncles, my aunts.

JIM MANGAN: There's no way that really your home is in risk of being bombed at this time. But it's a fear that it could spread. And so, I mean, being afraid of war is a definite valid thing. I mean, I am.

LEE HOCHBERG: Still teacher Mangan taught his students that ignoring violence can pave the way for more violence.

JIM MANGAN: Look at the ethnic cleansing, the genocide. We're going to ignore this? We learned no lessons from Hitler? We can't do that.

LEE HOCHBERG: At St. Mary's Academy, a Catholic girls' high school, the message was different. Pupils there were urged to reject comparisons between Hitler and Yugoslav President Milosevic.

MINDY MORTON, High School Teacher: The whole idea is that propaganda where you demonize the other guy so that we all him Hitler and he calls us Hitler. Or they had big signs the other day saying that Clinton was Dracula.

LEE HOCHBERG: Students in this junior and senior level government class discussed the propaganda war that could accompany the Kosovo conflict.

MINDY MORTON: The Serbs aren't all monsters, and, you know, they're not all involved in the ethnic cleansing. And I don't want my students to characterize them as monsters. If we make them Nazis, then it is okay to do whatever we want to do to them. You don't demonize your opponents.

TEACHER: Now where is Kosovo?

STUDENT: Kosovo's in Yugoslavia. And I think that the Serbian leader - I think that he's a really bad person because he's people.

LEE HOCHBERG: Portland Muslims, for whom the war, thousands of miles away, is personal and painful, have taught their students about demons.

WASA SUBHI, Teacher: There's rules on Earth. This is not jungle, and you have to think before you start just killing the people for land or whatever he wants.

TEACHER: A lot of people that are being killed are who? Fatima.

STUDENT: The ones who are getting killed are Muslims.

TEACHER: A lot of the people are Muslim, huh?

STUDENT: In the news, I mean, I saw a girl and she said if you say here for one more day, we're going to cut your whole neck.

LEE HOCHBERG: At Portland's private Islamic school, these children-- grades one to four-- also learned about heroes.

TEACHER: What does NATO stand for? What is NATO?

STUDENT: NATO is the people who say that this is not right. You are not supposed to fight with innocent people.

LEE HOCHBERG: But thankful as they are for NATO's intervention, even these Muslims wondered if bombing is the way to peace.

STUDENT: They're making it worse because dropping bombs would probably hurt the Muslims and stuff like that and make them die.

TEACHER: How can we help without hurting? Sometimes it's really hard to do both.

LEE HOCHBERG: A perplexing lesson for these brand-new students of an age-old conflict.

NEWS SUMMARY

JIM LEHRER: In the other news of this day, Libya surrendered two suspects wanted for the 1988 Pan Am Flight 103 bombing over Scotland in 1988. We have a report from Lauren Taylor of Independent Television News.

LAUREN TAYLOR, ITN: Boarding a UN plane in Tripoli, the two Libyan men charged with the Lockerbie bombing. This moment marked the end of years of diplomatic wrangling over how to bring the two suspects to trial. More than 10 years after 270 people were killed in the bombing of Pan Am 103, the ways finally opened for a trial in the Netherlands under Scottish law. That compromise was agreed to by the United States and Britain last year. For years, Colonel Gadhafi had refused to release the men to British or American courts, fearing they would not get a fair trial. That triggered crippling UN sanctions. Although the UN has said they will now be suspended, the US says it's not yet prepared to lift them.

JAMES RUBIN, State Department Spokesman: According to the UN resolutions, there are other issues that must be addressed, including payment of appropriate compensation, renunciation of support for terrorism, and cooperation with the trial. And in practical terms, the Libyans know that the specific sanctions that are in place now, namely the ban on flights, the ban on petroleum equipment, the controlled assets, those are now suspended. So in practical terms they are able to go about their business but they won't be lifted until we're satisfied that these three -

REPORTER: Does that mean until the trial is complete?

JAMES RUBIN: They'll be lifted when the secretary-general determines that these three conditions, reports on these three conditions and the Security Council determines that they've been met.

LAUREN TAYLOR: The hearings will take place at this former American air base in the Netherlands, which has been declared a Scottish territory for the trial.

JIM LEHRER: The suspects will be arraigned this week. Under Scottish law, the trial should start in three months. The US Supreme Court handed down two criminal justice decisions today. It ruled police may search passengers, as well as the driver, of a vehicle pulled over for a traffic stop, and that a defendant who pleads guilty has the right to remain silent at sentencing. The ruling said such silence must not be used against him when punishment is determined. Two new records were set on Wall Street today. The Dow Jones Industrial Average closed up 175 points at 10,007. And the NASDAQ Index closed up 67 points at 2560. A suspect in the beating death of a gay Wyoming college student pleaded guilty to murder and kidnapping charges today. The plea agreement allowed Russell Henderson to avoid the death penalty. He was sentenced to two consecutive life terms in prison. He and another man are accused of pistol-whipping to death Matthew Shepard last fall. The other defendant is to be tried later.

RECAP

JIM LEHRER: And to recap our major story, the air war over Kosovo now in its 13th day - NATO pilots took advantage of clear weather to pound Serbian military targets. Ethnic Albanian refugees faced worsening conditions. Some were airlifted to temporary settlements. And on the NewsHour tonight, NATO Secretary-General Solana said victory was the only possible outcome of the campaign against Yugoslavia. And, before we go tonight, some words about poetry and war by NewsHour contributor Robert Pinsky, the Poet Laureate of the United States.

ROBERT PINSKY: With armed conflict and suffering and evidence of atrocity in the news this April, which is also poetry month, an old question emerges again: What use or relevance does poetry have in the face of large-scale political disaster or evil? The Polish poet, Ceslav Milos, who survived the Nazi occupation of Poland, has said that in those days even the most tinted person by carrying in a pocket some poetry in the Polish language could register a small, stubborn particle of resistance. And in his poem "Incantation" Milos gives a bold, resonating answer to the question of poetry's significance. As the title "Incantation" suggests, the poem is a kind of prayer, less a description of the world as it is at any moment than the world as it will be or as it is at some ultimate core. Here is the poem in an English version that I made with the author. "Incantation." "Human reason is beautiful and invincible. No bars, no barbed wire, no pulping of books, no sentence of banishment can prevail against it. It establishes the universal ideas in language and guides our hand so we write truth and justice with capital letters -- lie and oppression with small. It puts what should be above things as they are. It is an enemy of despair and a friend of hope. It does not know Jew from Greek or slave from master, giving us the estate of the world to manage. It saves austere and transparent phrases from the filthy discord of tortured words. It says that everything is new under the sun, opens the congealed fist of the past. Beautiful and very young are Filo Sophia, and poetry, her ally in the surface of the good. As late as yesterday, Nature celebrated their birth. The news was brought to the mountains by a unicorn and an echo. Their friendship will be glorious. Their time has no limit. Their enemies have delivered themselves to destruction."

JIM LEHRER: I'm delighted to report that the Library of Congress announced today that Robert Pinsky will continue next year as Poet Laureate for an unprecedented third term. We'll see you on-line and again here tomorrow evening. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.