The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; Texas Politics

JIM LEHRER: Welcome to La Grange, a town of 4800 people in south central Texas. It`s grown a bit since the 1970 census, when that sign was put up. 100 miles east and a bit south down this road is Houston, where later this evening Senators Walter Mondale and Robert Dole, candidates for Vice President of the United States, will go at it on national television. Neither Mondale nor Dole set foot in La Grange during this campaign; neither have President Ford nor Governor Carter. In fact, no candidate for national office has ever campaigned here and no pollster from Harris or Gallup or Roper or anybody else has called anybody in La Grange and asked them about anything.

But there are 2,393 registered voters in La Grange, and their past voting habits pretty much reflect the way Texas as a whole votes -- usually Democratic. But last time, in 1972, La Grange and Texas said "No" to George McGovern and gave a majority to Richard Nixon. This time both the Ford and Carter camps very much need and want Texas. It has 26 electoral votes; right now it`s considered close, with a slight edge toward Carter. Now, the town of La Grange was settled in the 1830s, back when Texas was a republic. The only time it has really been in the news was two years ago when the Chicken Ranch, the oldest bawdy house in Texas, located just outside town here, was finally closed. It`s now going to take that same trip down that same road to Houston -- this time to become a restaurant.

La Grange is a French word meaning "meadow," and President Lyndon Johnson grew up in rolling pastureland like this not too far from here, in fact. Despite the name, most of the people who settled here were German and Czechoslovakian, as you can see from the storefronts. The people here make a living as they do in many towns in Texas; those who don`t farm or ranch work for small industries such as the local timber company or the RC bottling plant. Others work in the little businesses and stores in town. Whatever, everybody comes to town to shop, to go to church, to send their kids to school, and to come here to the courthouse to register to vote.

And we`ve invited some of those voters to join us here inside the courthouse. Our purpose is simply to listen to what they have to say about this election. With us are Buddy Zapalac, editor of the weekly La Grange Journal, Elmo Minzenmeyer, a rancher, Sam Arnim, former county judge who used to hear cases in this very courtroom, Pinky Wilson, wife of the local Democratic state representative and co-manager of two family businesses -- a clothing store and a real estate company, Otis Schatte, a cattleman from nearby Round Top, the Reverend Carroll Allen,. pastor of the First Baptist Church of La Grange, and Clarence Schulze, owner of Schulze Furniture World, across the street on the courthouse square from here. We`d also like to welcome many of their friends and neighbors who have joined us here today.

All right, the question -- or the major decision to be made on November the second -- obviously is between Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter. I`d like to start by asking you all, and beginning with you, Mr. Minzenmeyer, what is your basic impression of Jimmy Carter?

ELMO MINZENMEYER: Well, Governor Carter is a Democrat and basically I`m a Democrat myself, but I think he lacks a little bit of experience; I`m a little afraid of a governor that hasn`t had any experience in Washington to run our nation.

LEHRER: How do you feel about that, Mrs. Wilson?

PINKY WILSON: I find that his -- I wouldn`t say exactly a lack of experience -- but maybe his involvement might be a little refreshing. I am offended by some of the things that have been done in Washington, and I think maybe that a change might be good.

LEHRER: What about Carter personally -- how does he come over to you as an individual? That seems to have become a big thing in this election, Ford versus Carter as individuals. What bothers you, if anything, about Carter in that area?

WILSON: Probably his impression of being too good. I mean, all of us have faults and make mistakes and I think this is the thing that offends a lot of people, is the impression he gives that he is really too good to be true.

LEHRER: Judge Arnim, how do you feel about that? Does Jimmy Carter come over to you as too good to be true?

E.A. ARNIM: No, sir. (Laughing.) On the other hand, I just can`t go with Mr. Carter. My family have been Democrats since the War Between the States when my grandfather got shot by a Yankee - didn`t kill him -- and I`ve been in the Democratic Party all my life, elected by the Party., but I can`t go along with Carter.

LEHRER: Did you go with McGovern in `72?

ARNIM: No, sir.

LEHRER: So this is not a new...

ARNIM: Wait a minute. I voted for McGovern in `72 in the general election. I didn`t cast one before that.

LEHRER: I see. All right, now, what`s the problem with Carter?

ARNIM: I don`t think the man is stable. He promises everything every morning before breakfast, a different thing the next morning. The main thing I`m afraid of is establishing a labor government in the United States of America.The man is run by the labor unions, he`s the stooge of the labor unions; and as Eric Sevareid said last night, the top bosses of the labor unions in the United States have now come out 100 percent for Carter in an effort to gain control of the United States government. And when I think what labor government has done to England, I just can`t go with Carter.

LEHRER: Mr. Schulze, what`s your view on Carter?

CLARENCE SCHULZE: Well, there`s a lot of mud-slinging that I don`t particularly care for in Mr. Carter`s campaign.

LEHRER: What`s he done? Give me an example of something.

SCHULZE: For instance, President Ford`s handling of the Mayaguez incident. I admired the way he handled it because this may prevent another incident as such. And Governor Carter contradicted the way he handled it in his statement, and I`d have to -- like I said, I agree with the way President Ford handled it.

LEHRER: And you thought that Carter just played dirty pool on that, in criticizing him?

SCHULZE: That`s what I convinced of.

LEHRER: Reverend Allen, you`re a Baptist, Jimmy Carter is a Baptist; he`s been criticized most recently by Reverend W.A. Criswell, who`s pastor of the First Baptist Church in Dallas -- big church, got a lot of publicity, as you know. Do you share Reverend Criswell`s problems about Jimmy Carter?

Rev. CARROLL ALLEN: Some of it, not necessarily 100 percent.

LEHRER: What are your concerns?

ALLEN: My basic concern with Governor Carter is not religious oriented at all; my concern is lack of experience in Washington. And also, from that standpoint, in history -- in former times -- when we`ve had a Democratic- controlled Congress and, a Democratic. President we`ve had problems as a nation, and the only thing that has brought us out of it before is a war. I don`t want that to happen again; I don`t think that`s necessary. But I just feel like basically it`s going to be a difficult thing for Governor Carter to handle.

LEHRER: What about the fact that Governor Carter is a Baptist? Are the people in your congregation -- fellow Baptists here in La Grange -- are they more interested in the election because a Baptist is running for President, or do they tend to support him because of that?

ALLEN: I really don`t think so. My basic conception of the way our people are feeling is that they are as concerned as the rest of the country over other policies and problems than they are about whether he is a Baptist or not. There is going to be a lot of fire from that, because he`s from the South, and he is Southern Baptist and he does have strong opinions; and yet, no one -- Dr. Criswell or others -- almost every day I pick up a paper or a denominational magazine where another Baptist leader has taken exactly the opposite view. And this is typical in my church and among most people. I don`t think there is any way to poll the congregation and see who`s for Ford and who`s for Carter. We historically would rather make up our own minds as individuals; and on listening -- just listening -- I have a lot of young adults that I listen to and I have a lot of older adults in this community -- much of Fayette County, and much of my church, is older adults, and I listen to them; and the people that are really concerned, there`s some fear among the older people concerning Governor Carter. There are some reservations among the younger people about the point of needing a change -- maybe a different face, fresh...

LEHRER.- The point that Mrs. Wilson made a moment ago.

ALLEN: Right. Non-politician type.

LEHRER: Let me ask you, Buddy Zapalac, as editor of the paper here you talk to all kinds of folks -- can you put your finger on what the uncertainty is about Carter?

BUDDY ZAPALAC: You mean the readership, or my own opinion?

LEHRER: Any way you want to put it. You can tell us what your own opinion is and then say how that jibes with what you pick up in the town.

ZAPALAC: The readership is probably like what you`ve heard here. However, I totally disagree with all of you so far, because I find no fault with the man . Experience doesn`t mean anything; he`s had experience as a governor. We`ve had President Ford get in there with less experience and he did all right, or tended to. So I think the man`s all right. I`m for him, 100 percent.

LEHRER: Reverend Allen, mentioned there`s a fear of Carter. What do you think the basis of that fear is?

ZAPALAC: Maybe the Playboy escapade; I wrote about some of that.

LEHRER: What was the reaction here to the Playboy interview?

ZAPALAC: The people here didn`t think too much about it.

LEHRER: What about in your congregation, Reverend Allen?

ALLEN: Not really; very little was said about it. Those who made any comment just said this was one of the things they wish hadn`t happened.

LEHRER: Wish hadn`t happened for political reasons or wish hadn`t happened just because they didn`t like what he did?

ALLEN: I think that`s basically it, they just .don`t feel like that`s a necessary place to express viewpoints and opinions. This is a basically church community, a Christian community, here in this area and I think it was rather a cold thing to do. Most people just felt like that wasn`t the place to share opinions, and they just wish it hadn`t happened.

LEHRER: Okay. Let`s move on and talk about the other man in the race -- Gerald Ford. Mr. Schatte, you`re a Republican. What are your feelings about Gerald Ford?

OTIS C. SCHATTE: I think he`s a man that can do the job for this country. I think he`s trying to help the farmer, he`s made an effort to cut imports on beef; and we`re going to have to do something like this to get the cattle prices up for us in our area. Whether you wear a size 13A shoe or a 13 size D shoe, that still takes one hide for each foot. But we`ve got to get these cattle to a market price to where we`re not losing money when we want to sell one.

LEHRER: Mr. Minzenmeyer, you`re also in the cattle business; what are your feelings about Gerald Ford? You expressed some reservations about Carter; do you agree with Mr. Schatte here that Ford`s the man?

MINZENMEYER: Well, I kinda do. I think President Ford made a mistake at the time he had the grain embargo, about a year ago. Of course, he didn`t listen to the voice of agriculture, he listened to the voice of labor at that time. This is a problem we have in agriculture -- we are less than ten percent of the nation who are involved in agriculture, and somebody else is going to talk louder and have more people backing them up, and they`ll probably vote for them.

LEHRER: That`s the most important issue to you two gentlemen, at least?

MINZENMEYER: Well, this is our livelihood. We`re probably the only people that buy retail and sell wholesale, if you think about it.

SCHATTE: A tractor still costs us $5000, but we have 20 cows...

WILSON: $5000? More like $35,000.

SCHATTE: Yeah, well I can only afford a small tractor. Every time I have a cow I lose $100. You have a cow with twins, you have to kill one of the kids to come out ahead.

LEHRER: Mrs. Wilson, what are your feelings about Gerald Ford? I know you`re a Democrat, but you have some questions about Carter -does Ford turn you on?

WILSON: No, he does not. I am a conservative Democrat; and some of the problems that we in agriculture in this community have had have been because of some of the grain deals; maybe the embargo, cutting down on the importation of beef and things like that might help. But you can`t come out with calves, selling cattle -- with grain as high as it is you can`t afford to feed them. And right now everybody that I know of in the cattle market is losing money, and have been since 1973.

LEHRER: Mr. Schulze, what`s your reaction to Gerald Ford and his two-year old Presidency right now?

SCHULZE: I think, first of all, he`s only had two years. And I`ve seen some things I agreed with and some things I did not agree with in his two years. I believe if he were maybe given another four years I might agree with what he is.

LEHRER: Do you feel he`s a strong leader, the kind of man that -- compared with Carter, you`re going to go for Ford, is that right? I mean, you`re willing to give him four more years?

SCHULZE: Well, I`d like to see a little bit more. For instance, I`d like to see him talk a little bit more about what he can do for the small business and also for the cattle industry. Now, his cutting back the import of beef -- I think this was one step in the right direction, but I haven`t heard him say too much about what he can do for the small business, which is a lot of the backbone of the community.

LEHRER: Okay. Judge Arnim, describe Gerald Ford for me, in your words.

ARNIM: I think basically Mr. Ford -- President Ford -- is a sound man. He went into office with not too much experience and he`d been misguided in some things...

LEHRER: Like what? Give me an example of where he was misguided.

ARNIM: They`ve mentioned one or two of advice from his people. And he made errors in his debate the other night; but the error that he made with reference to the foreign countries of Eastern Europe -- well, this is a Czechoslovakian Texas community, because there are a lot of them here, including Buddy. He made a grievous error in the way he presented that; but the truth of the business is that the nations that he, mentioned still have their own personality, they believe in themselves as a nation, they maintain the old habits and customs in spite of the presence of force in the country -- they haven`t subscribed to the Russian doctrines yet, you see.

LEHRER: Let me ask Mr. Zapalac about that, about Gerald Ford and that specific gap in the East European remark on the debates. What did that do for you?

ZAPALAC: He totally goofed there. Like the judge said, I don`t know why he said it, but he got mixed up in that; whether he was trying to say it was feelings that wasn`t dominated, I don`t know, but he really goofed that. And he knows he left out Czechoslovakia and Hungary, the two nations hit the worst by the Russians; he left them out, so it looks to me like he was intentionally trying to do something and just got caught in his own web, or something. And talking about this cattle-situation, the man waited just till lately to do something about it. After three years he hadn`t done a thing, see?

WILSON: That`s right.

ZAPALAC: So now he`s doing it -- pump priming, or looking for votes, I`d say.

ARNIM: May I interrupt to make one more comment?

LEHRER: Yes.

ARNIM: The big point that Ford missed on his talk about these foreign countries was pointing out that it was a Democratic administration that gave these countries to Russia.

LEHRER: Um-hum. Look, several of you have mentioned the debates. Have all of you watched the Presidential debates thus far?

Anybody who hasn`t watched them both? Mr. Schulze, have you seen them both?

SCHULZE: Yes, I`ve seen both of them.

LEHRER: What do you think of the debates and how that whole thing`s working?

SCHULZE: Personally, I think both candidates were pretty well... of course, that`s what a debate is for. My personal feelings are, if they didn`t have the debates I think each candidate would probably have been better off because they each made their own mistakes. You know, I`m still in the middle of the road; I really haven`t decided on either candidate and the debates have not helped me decide which way to go, really.

LEHRER: Well, now, why haven`t they? The whole purpose was that this was supposed to help people decide; now, what do you not know about these two men that you`d want to know before you made that decision?

SCHULZE: First of all -- maybe I missed somewhere -- but I would like to hear, like I said before, what President Ford has to say on the small businesses because I am a small business, and every body in La Grange is a small business. Also, I thought that Governor Carter was a little negligent in calling President Ford "Mr. Ford." He is the President, and I think he should be respected as such. And there are a lot of things about Governor Carter that I`d like to know that I don`t think We`ll ever know.

LEHRER: What do you think about the debates, Reverend Allen?

ALLEN: Well, I`ve received, I think, some information from them. I felt, like an awful lot of other people, I think, there were not enough specifics. You know, "We will bring down spending, we will lower taxes, we will do this and that." How are we going to do this? There were not enough specifics -- one, two, three, four; let`s do this. I read any number of articles in U.S. News and World Report and other magazines where some real political hodge-podge of statements are made where I just don`t understand them; the average layman outside of Washington just doesn`t know what`s going on. And maybe, just maybe -- I`m not sure -- hidden in some of those statements are those specifics, but if they are, they`re so hidden that the average person doesn`t know how they are going to do this. A lot of promises without any specifics about how they are going to bring this to pass.

LEHRER: This brings up another question. Mr. Minzenmeyer, how have you gotten your basic information on this election as to how Carter and Ford -- where they stand on the issues, and your own impressions of them as men?

MINZENMEYER: Most of mine I`ve gotten by sitting down in the easy chair at night and reading my daily newspaper.

LEHRER: What newspaper do you read?

MINZENMEYER: The particular one I read was the Austin American. And this kind of disturbs me; you know, the candidate that the editor is for -- that`s what you`re going to read in the newspaper a whole lot.

LEHRER: That`s usually only on the editorial page.

MINZENMEYER: Well, right.

LEHRER: So you feel you have a good knowledge of what both of these men stand for?

MINZENMEYER: Well, yes. President Ford, I think we`ve got his voting record. Of course, they`ve dug way back into when he was in Congress and how he voted on things. Now, Governor Carter, no, we have no voting record, other than what he`s done in the State of Georgia.

LEHRER: Mr. Schatte, where have you gotten your information on this election?

SCHATTE: I subscribe to most of the local papers, so I guess you could say I just get my information from Colorado County newspapers, La Grange Journal, the Fayette County Record -- shouldn`t have said that -- the...

LEHRER: That`s advertising for the competition...

(Laughter.)

SCHATTE: I read the other paper also -- the Austin Statesman , Houston Post; and then my wife runs a small business and I get quite a bit of information from all the people that come in there and that`s where I learn all my agriculture, also.

LEHRER: Are people talking a lot about this election? I`ve noticed, just being here for a couple of days, I haven`t seen one bumper sticker for either Carter or Ford, I haven`t seen very much political activity at all; is there much interest in it? What about it, Mr. Zapalac?

ZAPALAC: No, not too much.

LEHRER: Why not?

ZAPALAC: It`s probably that they feel they`re both weak candidates. A lot of them say, "I wouldn`t vote for either one."

LEHRER: Is that what you say, Judge?

ARNIM: That`s true. There`s many a person that won`t -- just not interested enough in one side more than the other to vote. They just pass it up.

SCHATTE: The last debate brought out more than the other debate -- more interest.

ALLEN: I think there`s one other thing that`s so appealing to Governor Carter in the South, and maybe more than in the South - the fact that there`s a lot of interest in bringing this thing of government control out of a total political situation. In other words, Governor Carter`s not from Capitol Hill -- he hasn`t been there; and the average person in small towns feels like, what difference does it make? The bureaucrats are running this country anyway and there`s not anything we can do about it; so why get uptight, and why worry, why vote, why talk? We`re diversified -- everybody you talk to has a different opinion; but why even get into it, because what can my little vote or our little vote, even Texas` little vote -- and they say that Texas is a strategic vote, electorally -- why do it? It`s all settled somewhere else.

WILSON: It`s a sense of total frustration, I think.

SEVERAL: Right. He`s far removed from us. Yeah. We can`t have anything to do with it. We just don`t...

LEHRER: Do you feel that way, Mrs. Wilson?

WILSON: Even though I am involved, to a degree, I do feel total frustration with the system, and I think that`s the way most of the people feel. Like Reverend Allen said, most of the people say, "Why in the world should I vote? Mine`s not going to count." But I do think that the politically or socially acceptable thing right now is to say, "Yes, I am uncommitted." I think this probably, for some reason, is more socially acceptable.

LEHRER: Why do you think that is?

WILSON: Well, because there`s this feeling of anti-Washington, and if you say, "I am for President Ford," then you have this stigma attached to you about being part of the establishment in Washington and the bureaucratic system. And then when you say, "No, maybe I`m for Governor Carter," then you have this "Oh, my goodness. You must be a wide-eyed liberal" feeling. So I think most people in this area are quite conservative people; and rather than go out and put yard signs out, and bumper stickers and everything they would just as soon be quiet about it.

LEHRER: All right. Let`s start with you, Mr. Minzenmeyer; we have a couple of minutes left. Just each one of you answer one question: What are you going to do on November second, based on what you`re doing now, if you want to answer?

MINZENMEYER: I`m going to go to the polls, and I hope when I go I`ll be confident that whoever I vote for will be the right person.

LEHRER: But you don`t know who that`s going to be right now? MINZENMEYER: No, sir.

LEHRER: Mrs. Wilson?

WILSON: I`m not sure; I`ve never voted a straight ticket. LEHRER: For either party?

WILSON: For either party. LEHRER: Reverend Allen?

ALLEN: I have not voted straight Democratic. I`ve always considered myself a Democrat.,, but I`ve never voted a straight Democratic ticket; and I think that the majority of people in our country are that way. And I think if Governor Carter wins this election -- which I would not be surprised -- it will be because the South has risen up to a fresh new start.

LEHRER: All right. Mr. Schulze?

SCHULZE: I kind of feel that I will not vote either Democrat or Republican -- it will probably be a split ticket, and maybe the third debate will help change my mind.

LEHRER: Mr. Schatte, you`re going to vote for Ford, right?

SCHATTE: That`s right. I have voted Democratic and made two mistakes twice before; I don`t intend to do it again.

LEHRER: Judge?

ARNIM: I`m going to vote the straight Democratic ticket so far as Texas races are concerned. I don`t know how I`m going to vote for President.

LEHRER: Mr. Zapalac?

ZAPALAC: I`m going to vote for Governor Carter, and I believe lots of people will -- they say now they`re not even going to vote -- will vote when they get there; but they won`t say anything now, but they will vote for Governor Carter.

SCHATTE: I wanted to comment, I`m not going to vote for Carter in any event.

(Laughter.)

LEHRER: We`re going to have to leave it there. Thank you all very much. Thank you also, others of you who have been with us tonight. No neat and tidy summary here; their words speak for themselves. I`m Jim Lehrer. Robin and I will be back on Monday night. Thank you and good night from the Payette County courthouse in La Grange, Texas.