The Winter Soldier Investigation (Part K)

Ken Kirkpatrick who is with the American Friends Service with the American Friends Service Committee office in Seattle who took the pictures that you're about to see and with him is welcome. One of the girls of the napalm victim you can see her hands bends over and they go ahead with their weapons line. Here they have Vietnamese holding up what they call the pineapple bomb. I laughed and made him things and I'm sorry that I actually took pictures but with kids right. I did this is there a Laotian refugee camp outside of here and countless people have been moved on I possibly from the Plain of Jars the ancestral wrote in part by I well I wouldn't say forcibly they told us frankly they couldn't withstand the bombing and they agreed to come down and they would be empty out in the back and held out and they brought with the mists over there which is a plentiful bomb which did not go off. And these people had fashioned a little out of wax wick lamp out of this they're very innovative I think they put it to positive use.

I think the next slide and the fast last one and the last one has little fragments embedded in the side which then when it explodes in all directions tearing into people's flash and not necessarily making a very complex pattern that even if it just struck them like an arrow the pellets could run up through their body and be almost impossible to remove. I think on these other things this particular one shown here what was that what did the mansion's call it what other they called the other with that issue that you saw the lady holding up ahead of Obama this is a problem. Yeah this is you know this is this that when we do things for spider momentous right this time for which it was Spider bomb the term that is used in the electronic battlefield hearings is wide area and paper and a personnel munition which it which they radiate wampum and the pictures in the I made battlefield hearings they show a large cache it looks

like an egg egg box with all the little nominations falling out now these have a spring and then that shoots out a string in all directions and then maybe you could you could probably have a friend of mine the additional. The additional particles that come out of it and how it is not a proximity type device it has a chemical timing fuse in it and these are tripped as the spring goes out as it passes out of the casing of the bomb and it can spread destruction as he says in a wide area somewhere as much as 60 yards circular which is representative about size of a rice paddy and has the possibility of getting five or six people immediately. If these bombs do not go off immediately a slight jar will set them off later so people who have been in an area that's been bombed could conceivably come back into the area with feeling that they were secure from

nowhere raid and dislodge one of these or disturb it and commit havoc again as a result of it. But in this particular one the springs shoot out a string that's triggered this is a minor then a bomb. Right but right they go at such a distance. And if anyone anyone then walks through the area and touches the string of anything this animated explosion and I could grab a bomb that looks somewhat similar it would have pellets and so forth imbedded in it that would tear into people slash would be aimed at being politically and had a personal weapon. I thought name of it. The military now in place there is a wide area anti-personnel munition. It's not aimed at you or even it wouldn't even be effective against sandbags or military installations or anything of that sort only against unprotected human flesh. It's another picture but it extended. You can see the little string there that sets off the explosive. Right and the bird was commenting that you couldn't

it would be very hard to justify this from the standpoint of I mean it couldn't be considered a plot suppression or anything of that sort because it's not something that you you know that you would shoot at people but I was shooting back at you in the plane it's a thing. Well I guess they would call an area denial denial mind in any case it's something that would be set off at some later point would kill any person and any people who happen to be in the area and across the strings. You say things first broke the pineapple bomb that you saw before and it was a bomb with a little pellets inside of it. Maybe if we could point out which is which we were Can you point them in the right or. Right. There's a pineapple. OK well you can see how it's in the gravel by many undead in the AK thing evident it was the others the ones in the casing. Also count here in the people's last.

Words. Right. Resolve them. And then over on the other side you see what the Vietnamese called it. A quote mine is that whatever they call the leek mine. And that if they call it a quote mine can conquer Patrick mentioned to me that sometimes the enemy's children would see things on the ground would think they were toys or something to pick them up. Basically that's that's also mentioned in these hearings and referred to as a. Gravel mine. The XM 41 E1 gravel mine. And according to this it's a and IT personnel mine system which would have no effect against was a purely anti-personnel weapon and wouldn't. It doesn't even Well here's here it says the only kill mechanism is blast Gravel will blow a man's foot off but it will not blow a hole in a truck tire. So it's not it's not even it's not even a weapon aimed at at at killing

necessarily be anybody in the area but rather causing them not some amount of suffering going blown off their leg or something like that it's probably not powerful enough to kill people but rather to maim them for whatever military reasons you couldn't could figure out whether it's to demoralize the population to tie down other people and aiding these people whatever. But of course the Hague Convention pacifically says that it's illegal to employ arms projectiles or materials calculated to cause unnecessary suffering which that is clearly the only purpose of that. Wouldn't put somebody out of commission it would just cause the necessary suffering you might say something first about. All of the it set shows again the leaf mind that they're Vietnamese. Call it that and it's a little bit of black powder up there and then the little plastic with holes in it and it's just enough to split the foot and then that knocks you off balance and you fall put your hand out and split your hand and the ground will just become 100 cities of people coming in to help you they get their foot split and it's almost impossible

to detect because it's all metal components and it is only about two or three inches square. The one on the right is that of the jumping Betty sort of thing because as they told us that they live bouncing but I mean. That they just have a fleet used to put these into the villages. It doesn't show well in the picture but what happens there is that they have a canister fired from and I've got maybe a gun or a gun and it explodes thousands of these things and they come down and they're designed to hit at a specific detonating point which then sends up another bomblet about five feet high which then goes off with little pellets and they catch it like in the face and chest that next round when you can see the writing is still on its mind. I presume that's what kind of person now I am 14 refuse refusing to undergo any weight. It gives the Pacific information on that and the next one the one right next to that that looks like

I'm a little bat. What was the term that they use in that and Allen terminology used in the automated battlefield hearings talking about a part of this complete system of course has been used. Even it can be used even without the device over it but in the complete cycle they talk about as the dragon to mine the dragon dragon to person our mind system and said it is purely a person now. If a person steps foot off. If a truck rolls over a wooden block pliers when punctured a tire so again this is another one of the purely personal weapons and they show a picture in the hearings a long sort of tubular thing that drops down from the plane and opens up and that's all of these dragon teeth spin out and fly out over a wide area. The arming begins as it's at its next.

You want to read it. That's the one that we're looking for but that's so out of place I guess but that's a picture and we took on a prison ship 20 miles out of Saigon. That's what one people but due to of manioc fields that's about each B-52 has one hundred eight 500 pound bombs 750. And that's just product I don't someone keep in mind that when our making strikes in Laos with up to 30 and one in one strike and that means that I just can't imagine if you see what one B-52 does with the daily bombing it with those things is doing to the countryside up there. That's another B-52 I think I saw one of those lines that says there is

one other that was shown before a crowd comment on but be are you 66 which is another one that used in the CB you forty six that was another one of the rent that was the round one with the sort of oval round shaped thing on the top of it and that again is another one a bomb and it was from a kill mechanism is fragmentation and these can be dropped from the FBI used to make it make up a complete Seaview in their combined combined with the SU U which is what they would call calculate another bomb which is a big can even be it stays on the plane or some other bomb that drops out big like 750 found bomb case and then opens up and always the Obama team sometimes a variety of different types of them are inside and each of these spread out over a very wide area. And then as soon as they stop spinning or set a different type of fuses some are general proximity fuses detonated as they touch ground some detonate above the ground. Some wait until

people are coming to pick up survivors and then go off in any case spinning off with just thousands of tiny pellets that you see there and any flash in the area but again you would be used against another industrialized power again arranged so and particularly at a particular type of warfare in Vietnam where you're fighting a third world people who don't have the advanced technology that we do the whole automated battlefield is oriented in that direction in other words in other advanced industrial nation could jam the sensors and things of that sort. Supposedly you know the simple people like to be enemies could no in fact there have been a number of instances where they have been successful in using very simple methods to knock out this advanced electronic equipment. For instance Michael mentioned talking with one of the geologist who said at the end I laughed would put buckets of urine under the people sniffers and that this would totally

not matter why their air scenting perspective and there's been other things like this at the same time though While this. Well at same time there's Each of these is looked upon by the military as simply another experiment and another. Another research development contract for another company to come out with another sensing device or whatever that won't be put off by your bucket or whatever else they're the same type of problem when they were dropping the acoustic sensors that first the fuse doing the dropping in Cambodia. At first the enemy would walk very softly and not in order to not be detected by them so they drop down to these button bombers which were just little bombs which just make a cracking sound ever stepped on that would just alert the sensor in the area. But then these were also detected so then they had some more manufacture they were disguised as animal dung and similar similar problems keeping overcome with like the plane the ones that are

parachuted down and then land in the trees that the microphones for the. Originally were able to be detected by the parachute still staying up there even though the thing itself was camouflaged and so then they according to one source I talked to they asked international latex or Playtex company to devise a parachute that would disintegrate as soon as the thing reached impact with the tree and it was very very fine wires running all through it which just instantly disintegrate the parachute when it touches and touches down and so each of each of the failures and there have been a lot of failures in their developing this thing over such a short period of time have been simply used as I say again as an experiment result for them to move on to the next more lethal experiment. I think for many people here it took you

or took many of the PGI as we've been talking a long time and a lot of soul searching perhaps to be able to come out publicly and talk about the crimes they've been made to commit. But there are many Officer generals that I'm so shy about there were crimes in fact bragged publicly about those crimes and even glorify them as I saving Americans lives American lives again in these automated battlefield hearings. General Williamson. Brags that he was the first the first commander in Vietnam to use to use the sensors. And he states it. That first of all it really says for the past 25 years I've been singing a simple tune. If you have to fight then fight with bullets not bodies. I conduct it well and then he goes on to say. I hope I can demonstrate how the sensors have helped

us to make the first steps toward the automated battlefield this is a worthwhile approach toward fighting with bullets instead of bodies that is getting the job done. Wait a minute minimum danger from a person now. In the third week of September. Talking about when they were first starting these activities and 68 percent is finally paid off at 11 o'clock one night. The monitor at a French fort indicated movement was being reported by two of the sensors it was raining hard but there is no doubt about the reading something was more something more than rain was being registered to 175 millimeter guns opened up slightly north the sensors 6 1 0 5 millimeter Howitzers commenced blocking fires just south of sensors to 81 millimeter mortars fired directly in the road junction he said. When the patrol arrived on the scene they found literally a carnage a big 175 millimeter guns had found their target. Then he said. Here is another example. He talks about the Nighthawk helicopter which he says he speaks I have to emphasize that the sensors were not

working in isolation. This helicopter proved to be a valuable night surveillance to us as well as a deadly weapon. The Nighthawk it consists of a searchlight having infra red and white searchlight capability mounted CO actually with a crew served night observation device. Alongside the light and observation devices a pedestal mounted mini gun. The rapid firing machine gun as soon as an unmanned sensor registered a night hawk helicopter registered a night hawk helicopters dispatched to the scene. We killed one hundred three North Korean mi soldiers during a one month period using this technique had no personnel cost us not even an injury. Just diverting from that for a minute. I'd like to give an example. What this looks like a little bit from the other side. A Quaker worker in Vietnam who is with the quiet night program that FNC sponsors there wrote back in February 69 and this is covered in comic book weapons for counterinsurgency.

She wrote back. Several of us went to the roof about 3:00 a.m. the Americans unleashed a terrifying Puff the Magic Dragon which is an AK 47 gunship waited a whole range of helicopters and an aircraft that can be outfitted as gunships that spits forth five thousand machine gun bullets per minute. As I watched it circle overhead last night so wedded against the low clouds in the light of the flares playing indiscriminate vaults of death earthward I could vividly visualize the scene below men women children and animals caught like rats in a flood. No place to hide. No way to plead their case to have innocence to the machine in the sky. No time to prepare for death. The beating the civilians are taking in this war is not an adequate description. The cold mechanical compassionless way that monster circled around and around and around ruthlessly pursuing an unseen quote enemy unquote stabbing viciously earthward again and again probing searching killing maiming all in its path. We have survived but a lot of people didn't make it. And a lot more

who are now claiming the life over at the hospital will not make it until morning. If we could only bring the horrifying scene of human devastation and its true dimensions home to the people who must know what it's like. The ones who are pulling the strings on a steady puppet show man's inhumanity to man has reached its climax in Vietnam. He wrote from Vietnam. Going back to the testimony of General William Major General Williamson he says now my I guess my best real war story. I guess the best real war story that I have is firebase crook. This is a story where four hundred twelve enemy soldiers were eliminated with the loss of one U.S. soldier. OK fine. He goes into a lot of the technical details of the battle and shows how each of the different types radars and sensors were able to detect people are two hundred twenty meters this direction over a hundred hours and so forth. And then.

He said let's see starlight scope operator spotted movement around midnight. The radar detected two groups of about 40 persons each moving fifteen hundred meters north of the base at about twenty three hours and I talk helicopter tech another group of 40 persons actually information along Cooke and I talked me to dive United's targets all of the targets were engaged with artillery and mortar fire and all available Army helicopters and air force attack planes. And then he said Our search of the battlefield proved just how punishing our efforts had been. And he showed the congressman present there a little chart. With a body count of the area and he says this diagram indicates where the bodies were found and give us an idea as to which weapons eliminated the enemy that 60 west of the river were killed almost exclusively by helicopters. Thirty two along with mine were killed by indirect artillery. Twenty close and were killed by direct fire from the base the 43 along the road were killed by the Night Hawk helicopters and the remainder manger of all 150 were killed by a combination of

U.S. Air Force planes and fire from within the base. And on the second night three hundred twenty three additional enemy were killed and 10 live prisoners taken. I had to move two bulldozers out just to bury the dead. And then he said that. OK we can test it for Texas and elsewhere we're making an unusual effort to avoid having American young men stand the American young man stand toe to toe eyeball to eyeball or even rifle the rifle against the enemy that may outnumber them on the battlefield. We're trying to fight the enemy with our pilots instead of our bodies of our young men firepower not manpower. How less painful it is to use firepower for power to fight them at a distance for having to expend your manpower as the enemy makes this close in assault and it just occurs to me I see. As he talks about the well as he goes through a story of how we can just just slaughter people mechanically without any deaths on our part that if the Nazis had the courage to play to Baghdad

lately you might have imagined a Nazi general saying my best real war story of Dachau where we slaughtered one million Jews with less than one guard lost on our part. This goes a long way toward reaching my favorite slogan of the gas chambers and not with air with our bodies. Anyway I guess my time's up. This is what sort of a Army's outline this in this area with really a technological escalation of the war as they talk about facing the war down they need less manpower but technologically the war is escalating. Thank you very much. We are short on time so if you hold the applause to Mr. RICHARD WARD We only have about 15 minutes left so I don't know Program time requesting or not I hope we do. Mr. Ward is going to discuss the results of bombing in North Vietnam and Laos. To begin to begin with.

You just got a hundred and ten plus stock to begin with. I want to get my qualifications. I was with the first group of Americans to travel to North Vietnam under U.S. attack in 1965 in the summer of 1065. And subsequently I visited North Vietnam again. And this past summer. I spent. Almost two months in nothing but now I'm back in by a visit to the liberated zone of Laos and I want to add that. I have written up some of this as some of my observations as in the guardian of which I am foreign editor and also

a report on the bombing of Laos I think the first and only report it's ever printed in the US press coverage of the bombing. Since the route it appeared during the summit I and they didn't give me much space. Forgive me if you happen to have seen this report. And I repeat some of what I said in that going back 965. I visited Vietnam not as a member of any war crimes tribunals. And I was not there. To see what the United States was doing in terms of how much damage I was there to see what life in North Vietnam was like. I believe not nothing and I mean hoped I would realize. Something that few Americans could believe is that they were going to resist as long as necessary and

that they could resist the US bombing as long as necessary. So in fact they didn't make an effort to sell me at the damage they showed they wanted to show me how life was going on and I had to insist with my colleagues. There were four of us including the. Then station manager of the WBA I New York on this trip. We insisted on seeing the bombed areas of North Vietnam. In other words going into areas that were under attack so we travelled down into the city. 10 wall which is about one hundred and forty miles by the road and on the runway we saw this the city you have now and then Dean which you may have heard about. This was made famous because up until then most people in this country believed the words of our

president that the United States was bombing. Only. Stealing concrete. Well now I'm doing as a textile the textile factory was destroyed. This was in August 1065 the housing around the factory was destroyed and also the area had been straight. Clear evidence of strafing bullets. The book the lines of bullets I might say that I'm a veteran not of it and I'm acquainted with the military with the use of various forms of military weaponry. We got to Nam Dean Nam Dean and they didn't even bother to show us all the damage but this town which was rather heavily just hit and nothing to Harrison sounds better so that nearly a year and a half later did did the real

evidence appear in the US press. That the United States was bombing civilian targets. In Canmore the main destruction was of the hospital the provincial hospital. You could see the medical equipment and by that time. In the summer of 1965 most of the hospitals of North Vietnam had been bombed one of more times the base hospital was had already been bombed three times and it was leveled to the ground at the time. Visitors came back in 1970 every hospital outside of Hanoi I believe outside of Hanoi and Haiphong had been bombed if not completely destroyed. In 1964. Maybe victims had been maimed by napalm and

phosphorous. By 1970 array of weaponry was much wider. I won't go through it you just have the weapons all those weapons that were pictured on that screen have been used during the bombing of during the several years of bombing of North Korea. Pellet bombs and the the so called leaf minds. So a very poor country. Believe me mine looks like a piece of cloth. And you put it in your pocket. Thank you President. Seeing a piece of cloth it's of value to the person is a good patch for a worn out piece of clothing and the person brushes it just happens to touches his pocket and explodes and maims him. My conclusion was already in 1965 the main purpose of the bombing

was to destroy. The civilian economy to break the mood of the people. When this then the bombing became more intense and the escalation widened. And the targets extended beyond just. The people themselves the people resist Grable to resist. They dug tens of thousands of miles of Souter's and then they began to systematically destroy the industry. They said they'd have us say there was bombing on the roads. Well what does that mean if you bomb all the roads of a country. How do people exchange goods or rent for and then get this interrogation tape. It sounds like they were not after information so what were they after he wanted to present the views of the National Liberation Front concerning the war in South Vietnam. In other words tell their side of the story and they asked me if I would think about it and

you know try to rationalize whether we were right or whether they were right and to come back later and talk with him about it and try to have a discussion about South Vietnam. Would you think that this is brainwashing. I would think not unless. If you would say that it was brainwashing you could also say what they did a Fulbright was brainwashing. If you can elaborate on where and in what sense. Well before we went to Vietnam they tried to impress upon the minds of the soffit and these were something less than human and it was quite alright to go over there and kill them because this was the only war that we had anyway. Now this is a quote from a lieutenant in a secret class to call an area study. And he said I'm sorry you know that it's not much of a war but the only one we have so want to make the best of it. Could you compare this interrogation sessions then let's say to a command information class. Bear with us Saturday morning the information education classes where they told us about different things the things that were happening in Vietnam in the way their life was compared with what we were led to believe were the what were the

physical circumstances of this clients their interrogations and what we thought of the table of approximately like this except it was handmade in the jungle and they serve tea in the sugar cube that they had they really didn't have chocolate candy for us but. And how long would a session usually an hour or so and they gave us the cigarettes while we were at the interrogation and it was a pact to think back to him with us for the bit as the case may be. At any time you were a prisoner for two years at any time were you ever physically abused. Never physically abused. I was really surprised to find out because contrary to everything that we've heard there they never once laid a hand on me except when I was captured they push me around a little bit which I would expect to do myself like after somebody had stolen all you were a prisoner of war. There must have been difficult times. I mean what was the attitude of the guards towards you and the other three prisoners. Their attitudes varied from time to time and they could be very friendly

and in times it would appear very hostile toward us and we learned during our stay with them that these were reflections of political activities in Saigon that one an NLF soldier was executed in Saigon it usually influenced their attitude to a certain extent. But it seemed that there was enough could control from their commanders. But then they never took any hostilities out on the president they may have disliked us intensely because of what was happening but they still were under the control of the commanders and we were told this at one time that our men would like to kill you but we have discipline and we don't allow them to do so. And I can understand that because of the things we were doing to them in 63 and are are you aware that when these and I left so Jews were being executed in Saigon that the American government was being warned against that. Absolutely they let us listen to Radio Hanoi. They brought the radio around every evening. They didn't force us to listen to what they turned on if we wanted to talk that was all right. But the radio had no he was warning

the United States in a slag on a regime that executions had been taking place we had heard about them they were warning the United States of any more executions took place and I think there was three prisoners being threatened at the time but the more execution took place they would definitely retaliate. I said the United States must bear responsibility for these executions. And so this sort of a put it is an eye print because you know who are they going to execute besides American prisoners of war if they want to retaliate against the United States and where it is a great deal. And this did in fact lead to such an act would you going to that it would be. After they had worn for probably a week that the execution to take place I heard that the execution did in fact take place. And about that time one of the members that was captured with me Sergeant Roy back was taken from our camp area and it was later found out that they had reported that they executed him.

The strange thing is that they never told us that they executed or back they never used it for coercion. As far as we knew he had disappeared from the earth and his name was never mentioned again. For the for the record. There was another man executed at that same time. As I understand was a captain of the Sharon right. But that was after repeated warnings of the execution of another Yes well this was a like a final warning that he would warn someone before when they executed somebody in Saigon to try to blow up McNamara but wasn't successful but they execute him for the attempt. That they had worn at that time that they were going to retaliate but this far as I know they didn't retaliate at that time. How to make you feel that I mean that you know the. You were their prisoner and and these warnings are going on these executions are still going on. That's kind of a panicky situation really that you know there's nothing you can do about you know the United States is so stubborn and bullheaded that they won't listen to someone like you and I live because you don't recognize that they exist. So how could they listen to him protesting. So we were really in a bad position almost

hopeless we knew that the United States would listen to them and they were saying they would retaliate which I didn't appreciate but do they certainly were within their rights if their soldiers were being executed is no reason why they should retaliate. Drugs I know you can't testify to P.O. W's in the north but we have heard a lot of. Eyebrow to P O W's in the north much of which relates to the subject of food. You were a prisoner for two years under some rather extreme circumstances in the jungle. Could you how would you how would you describe the food you had in terms of was it sufficient adequate whatever whatever I usually had more food than I could be. I usually ate better than they did they brought in things like sardines for us which they didn't eat themselves about in cases and cases of sardines. The point that I was fed up on sorting. And it sort of worked in a cycle like that I would be able to eat the food for a certain period of time and I would build up an intolerance to it I would become ill and I would be able to eat a food for a while. But strangely

this only affected Camacho McLaurin myself Rohrback thrived on the food he ate and mountains of rice and everything else that you get if one of us Rosicky of course ate what we didn't want the man was really well fed and he got fat. So in other words there was nothing wrong with the food there was something wrong with your head is this what you're I would suspect if this was the problem of the matter of being under the circumstances of being wrong daily and having rice to eat for breakfast the sardines and the whole thing of looking into the future every grace before you were in service of course ate rice not that much but I was rather fond of rice and I said I do still eat rice but when you were released and finally in November sixty five it was right. Yes November 65 almost two years why did they put your weight in relationship to your weight at a time of capture. I probably weighed about the same as I did when I was captured. You mentioned sardines in it that they were giving you sardines it's sort of like a special little

diet supplement or something with how but other special things. Well as I said they gave us a sardine and they brought in canned milk for us. But it wasn't limited to that. On Christmas our first Christmas they brought in a woman who spoke English and asked us what we would like to order for Christmas dinner and we told her that while the chicken would probably be good with some bread of course we were this was an asinine request as far as we were concerned. But sure enough they brought chicken and bread along with a paper star with a candle inside and hung in the cell for us. This is when you say sell. It was like a little house was made of a pole that they had cut nearby and the forest there is not a permanent installation now it's something they know something that they just cannot join in with paper and bamboo string when you say say bread they had bread in the camp. No they didn't they told us that they did not eat bread and they didn't even buy bread but since we requested that they

sent men to wherever the nearest bread factory was and and got us some bread it was at least two days away I'm sure of that because of a serving of towns large enough to have a bakery and when the bread came it was along those French bread so it definitely wasn't made in some jungle and I think I would smoke in material things. The back Elisa gave me more than I could stand because of the extremely strong variety that they smoked themselves and when they had that. Before those days. They didn't have that effect at all. But that if they had the tailor made cigarettes they gave us what they had they would give us a pack they had a flag they had a couple they were divided with us. They they gave us cigarettes and as I went to talk about this this Christmas thing this prompted us to capitalize on the fact that they recognize the holidays so we told them how important birthdays was in the bar and about Easter and the Fourth of July and the Labor Day and Thanksgiving and it

and we were trying to just be kind of silly about the whole thing but it turned out that people recognized the fact that you know we felt this way about our holidays because they would bring us a bottle of beer and a chicken dinner and usually something special if they could get bread with so you couldn't always do they brought us a loaf or so of bread apiece. The Christmas I think we had 12 loaves. It was a lot of bread for them. Your How did your rations of food tobacco and whatever How did that compare with your guards. Oh we're into quantity and so on. The quantity of tobacco we always had the biggest share of tobacco because they brought us they brought us so much one time we didn't want to do without the stored over the house trying to keep it from being soaked up with water from the rainy season. But the guards would run out of tobacco very soon after we got our supply because they seem to get just a handful and they would occasionally bum a cigarette from us like a woman asked us if we could have it they never took the liberty to take our tobacco away from us they always ask us for that and we usually gave it to them and if

we had some that they would stand around without a cigarette watching us puff away all day long while we laid around in our beds and they were out working and digging holes in it. Did you ever receive mail as a prison. Yes I think I received about four letters three or four letters a day when I was a pretty back my mother back in the jungle right where you were allowed to write they allowed me to write as often as I wanted to I didn't write often because I didn't believe the letters would be delivered if I wrote and possibly they might use it against me at some time or another. I wrote two letters I believe two solid letters but they asked me he said you may write every week we will furnish you with a paper and material that is necessary to write. But I normally decline McClure wrote a number of letters and saw how many were delivered I don't know the ones I did write were finally delivered to my mother. How would you describe the attitude of the prisoners towards your captors. Well I can speak for myself but I was extremely hostile and very arrogant within this ethnocentrism thing was strong enough that they even though as a president I still look

not upon them and how they were able to tolerate my attitude for a year or so until I finally decided that these were people and I could look upon them as such I don't know. But I was really a bad person and they told me at one time that I was the worst and they had. But despite that you were never physically abused never physically abused and finally released which is the most unusual thing your make any statements while you're a prisoner. Yes I made statements like I was telling you these biases that we had where they presented their views and we would go back and discuss them at some length that I stated that I believe that they were basically right about Vietnam that I didn't have any business there that the war in Vietnam was wrong that we were violated and didn't even agreement. And I certainly didn't want any part of it and all the troops should be withdrawn. This is basically what I said we were so elaborate on different points of it. But these are statements that I made and I wrote a letter to that effect of the letters to my mother describing you know that the situation there and how I now felt about it

according to what I had observed from that frame of reference. You've been out of service now five years. How do you feel about the state now. Well when I first came back I was not positive that I was taking the right position so I did considerable research on my own to find out just where I was. And the more research I did the more entrenched I became in my beliefs. And I feel very strongly that what I said and was right in fact I saw even more than I do. Even more now than I did then and I'm not under the duress of being a prisoner of war. How old were you when you joined the Army. I was 17. And what are you doing now. I worked for the post office a new company in West Virginia. Are you going to school. I go to Ken State University branch. Rather appropriate.

Did any of the other prisoners make statements and everything. All of the prisoners as far as I know made statements very similar to mine. McClure made more statements and I did I believe. Because he wrote more letters to his wife and I did. But everybody that was there were making the same statements because we got together and talked about it after the interrogation we all generally agreed it was a bad situation and we really didn't belong there and that we would just be glad if the war ended and we all went home. And Sergeant Camacho made these statements also. Oh I absolutely think it's him he and I live together in fact he was the senior NCO in the prisoners. And when they were asking us to make a statement one time concerning our views a written statement so they would have something to do to retain in what would be considered our records I suppose a Camacho said that they thought that was a good idea that we should go ahead and write a statement if we felt like we wanted to do so that they didn't tell us that we had to write anything that they

said if you would like to write something we would be glad to have it. It's a matter of public record that in 1965 Sergeant Camacho Isaac Amato escaped. From the same camp that George was there by becoming the first prisoner of war to successfully escape since the Second World War at the time that he he did escape as it appeared in Life magazine Camacho made the statement that what made it possible for him to escape was the fact that George Smith was the one that covered for him so he could in other words one man go and one man had to stay and cover for the other to give the other one a head start. Wept What was the net result for Camacho after he got back.

Well from what I heard after I got back the army refused to tell me where to launch it was even after I got back. But now that I mean what recognition was given of Camacho this is what I was getting into that I found out after I got back that Camacho had been returned in and states to his home in El Paso and that President Johnson made a special trip to El Paso to personally decorate Camacho with the Silver Star for escaping. In November 1965 you were finally released. Did they ever tell you why you were being released. Yeah the NLF told me that I was being released in direct response to the peace movement in the United States and more specifically to replace Norman Morrison and a woman who had immolated themselves Norman Morrison in front of the Pentagon at that time I believe they stated that they realized that American people were basically peace loving people and did not condone the action that the United States government was taking in South Vietnam. So they were returning two of their sons to them for the replacement of the two that who had given their lives for the cause of peace in Vietnam. Were you actually first released.

I was turned over to the Australians in Naam Penh Cambodia. And when when did they tell you that. The peace movement and so on and so forth. Well they did mention the peace movement back at the camp before I was actually taken on Patton and anon Penn Of course they set up a press conference for us with all international reporters were there. And someone asked me a question of what I intended to do when I went back to the United States and I told them that I was going to tell the true story of Vietnam as I could see it from my experiences that the United States had no business in Vietnam that it wasn't in the best interest of the American people and therefore we should all get out immediately. And someone asked me How do you intend to tell the story. I said I'll probably get in touch with the peace movement when I get back because I understand they're saying similar things. Had you ever heard of the peace movement for you were captured on Radio Hanoi. I had heard but not the minority. But not before you had to know anything about such a thing existing. You had no way of knowing what the attitude of special forces towards the peace movement was right I didn't know what the

peace movement did Even so did you look at the peace movement. No I never did. Why I ended up in Okinawa which of the United States military bases no one has access there unless the United States military allows them to go there. As opposed to be sent directly home but for some reason other Those saw fit to take me to Okinawa where they held me incommunicado censored my mail. For about five and a half months I think it was in other words you were a prisoner again. Yes a prison in the United States Army this time that they had an escort everywhere I went in. It was not allowed to do anything my on my own unless I checked with the escort. Because it is public knowledge that you were in fact put under charges is this correct. That's a fact that was taken to a de-briefing the supposedly de-briefing in Okinawa which last about 21 days and consisted of 51 typewritten pages. And after the debriefing was almost over before they had actually concluded to the beating an officer came in and informed me that I was suspected a violation of Article 1 0 4 the UCMJ.

Specifically aiding the enemy and also suspected of misconduct in the face of the enemy both of these charges carry the death penalty. Now if I get this straight the sergeant Camacho who made the same statements and who escaped with your assistance is given a silver star. Right exactly. And you are now under court martial charges which hold the ultimate penalty of death. Seems rather curious. Yes I would have. Which would you comment on. Oh I suspect the fact that I open my mouth and said I was going to look up the peace movement when I got home didn't suck very well the special forces and the army and to be able to stop me from doing this they brought the charges against me which allowed them to hold me on Okinawa indefinitely until maybe the peace movement forgot about me or I forgot about the peace movement. The further you were released you had to sign a piece of paper relating to classified information and they specified certain information you were not to discuss right.

Would you give it you know a couple examples couple of things you weren't supposed to discuss. Oh well one of those one of the strangest things if this was a secret I wonder violation of the National Security Act if I discussed this thing so I expect to be arrested is another funny saying this. But I wasn't allowed to tell anybody that I received a Red Cross parcel while I was a prisoner of war. You don't receive a Red Cross parcel back in the jungle. Only this we receive watch over clear myself each received a large Red Cross parcel probably weighed 15 pounds apiece and had to be tracked on some of the back end of the ride they had to carry it maybe 50 miles at least because they certainly didn't have any road in the jungle. Thank you George. We're going to hear from our second prisoner of war Dr. Marjorie

Nelson I wonder if you could just begin by saying in her own words how she was captured and what the experience was like in there and that they had gone. Can you hear me. I I had gone to Quang Ngai in October of 67 and I had been there for four months when the Tet holiday was coming up and I went to Kuwait for Ted to visit friends and of course as you know it was overrun and held for some time by you know with an NPA forces. I was staying with a friend Sandra Johnson who was working with international voluntary service teaching English and don't kind of high school which is a girls high school and way. And she and I spent the first four days of the attack in in an improvised bomb shelter in her dining room. While the fighting went on outside on the fourth afternoon NLF

soldiers came to the house and pounded on the front door. We were too frightened to respond so they went around to the kitchen door and broke into the kitchen and we could hear them kind of rummaging around the kitchen and then they came to the door between the dining room and the kitchen which was barred from our side by two boats and they began to shoot the boats off the door. And I said to Sandy I'm going to talk to them. And so I asked them in Vietnamese What do you want. And they said open the door so we did. There were five of them. They came in asked just a few questions asked to see if we had any weapons in the house to which we replied No. And then they searched the house. We talked a bit more they attempted to reassure us that that we should not be afraid and that they did not intend to take anything.

And then. The fighting's sort of began again and we moved out of the living room. And just about that time I heard something coming I don't know what it was but I jumped back into the bomb shelter and whatever it was hit the living room where we'd just been and. Demolished the living room. And so they went back outside and left us alone for two more days and then on the sixth afternoon they came back and told us that we should go with them. We were in the way about three more days before we were officially registered as prisoners of war. We had to fill out forms in triplicate giving our passport number and name who we work for it and then finally someone who spoke English for the first time we met someone who spoke English and he told us that because of the continued heavy fighting in the city they couldn't keep us safely that we were going to be taken to the mountains. To study. And that when

there was peace we'd be returned to our families. So we expected to be there for the duration of the war. That night we left with about 15 or 20 Vietnamese prisoners. As we walked into the mountains and were held down in the mountains for about about a little over six weeks before we were released. Just to emphasize one point. When you were captured way were still very much a battle scene was it. Absolutely. So they seem to have taken a great deal of care with you. All this was done while you battle was raging throughout the city. Once you were. In the camp there and even before it could you could you say whether there was any physical motivation of you any any abuse is taken of you as a woman or as a person. No. This is this is a question that I know comes up in the minds of

well certainly Benny Diaz who's been in Vietnam. And many other people. In the circle of this thing could have occurred and I think on a couple of occasions we were simply lucky that it didn't. However once we were in the camp it was quite clear that the Qadri also were concerned about this. And they made sure that our privacy was respected. In the first camp we were we were living with a Vietnamese family and we were living family. I mean we didn't have a separate room. And then in the second camp we had our own house. How many other prisoners were there with you again. At the second camp that is my girlfriend and I were the only ones who were there during the whole time that when we were separated from the main group of American prisoners two fellows came with us. They stayed a couple of days and then went on. And the first camp we were with.

How many other people we were with about 15 or 20 Vietnamese prisoners and when we got there we we found already there 20 about 25 American men all of whom had been captured in Hawaii. Do you have any knowledge that any of these other American or Vietnamese prisoners were mistreated by the. I can't speak about the Vietnamese prisoners I didn't see any of the enemy prisoners mistreated. I talked with all of the American men. None of them had been threatened or mistreated except. That at the time of capture I mean at the actual you know when they were captured several of them had their shoes or watches or rings taken away from them. One man said that he had been and I think I quote exactly they made me walk over barbed wire on the way out. And I don't know whether that was he did not indicate whether he thought that was a deliberate act or simply in order to go that way and he went. But of course

during that you know this was during a battle when he was captured. Two and I think two or three others had received wounds before they were captured. You know fragments and that sort of thing. And was it was there medical attention given to the order people they received medical attention and a nurse came two or three times a week to dress their wounds. Which was adequate except for two of them. That was the man I mentioned who whose feet were in bad shape and another man who'd taken a big piece of something in his side. And they needed more medical attention.