Kinsey

That was a look up a little. Figure details in June June during the institute 1982 you note the review was before the eyes of my many. Early 80s we find. So I want you to explain that your decision on why the institute is important what you call the gigantic mythology of the institution is one of the reasons major reasons that it should continue and. I don't know how much of that I really want to get into right we won't we don't need it. It's not actually the central problem one of the things I believe that anyone. Can sort of had a bit of a hodgepodge. If not clearly defined then. Exactly. Now it's come it's often come in. The. Wave of a problem. That could be.

Well. One problem is with the media making a lot of wild exaggerations about can this thing. And it wasn't exactly that that amount of time wasn't exactly what one would have predicted a science advisory board would have been called together thought. And you don't want to say that. It was an important issue but. If we would just been an advisory board it would have been totally within the agenda. But you weren't just right but I thought they were supposed to advise on the scientific program. And do me twice a year to do that and

what we used to make four times a year at the beginning but it seems to have been down to every December and that hard to get everyone together. And you know they have a foreign represent the John Bancroft president that that sort of incessant aide said he's going to fly the Atlantic for at least one other reason as well. OK let's I think you're right. We're ready let's start talking about about Jim when you first know her and advised her to set her on her course. Don't forget I kind of need you to restate that question. When I first met June in New York when she was a student at. Columbia at the Teachers College. There was a young man who had a connection with my

unit here in Baltimore who was also a student there and he was on the committee that semester for inviting. Colloquium speakers. So I went up there and presented my slides and and talk about the differentiation of gender identity as masculine or feminine or. Maybe in-between. And you know my special point on that is all of the information that I've extracted from my studies of children born with birth defects of the sex organs. So for people who are training in a teacher's college and haven't had anything very biomedical it's quite dramatic material it is in fact very it has proved at itself to be very important and theoretically basic. So June was. In the audience and very attracted toward this database and the theory that was emerging from it. So she asked if I would be her. Preceptor for a

term paper which I agreed to do and that led to her wanting me to be her preceptor for her dissertation which I agreed to do. And that established a professional working relationship from then on to the present day when my main contact with with the Institute now is as a member of the scientific advisory board of the Kinsey Institute. Tell the story now about in the early 80s when you were on that the outside committee I don't know which officially called a committee with a committee outside the university that reviewed the Kinsey Institute in the early 80s then the dean of the I think it would be the extension service but just the administrative part of the university that takes care of institutes including the Kinsey Institute Yeah. If you want to be accurate and I looked it up for you to research and graduate development the dean of research in graduate development.

In the early 80s the dean of research and graduate development and administrative branch of the university. Got in touch with me and asked me if I would serve on an extramural committee to evaluate the present status and future possibilities of the Kinsey Institute. The other two people on that committee were Erhard who is now at Columbia and had done her dissertation research and worked with me for several years here. And the third one was Robert Kalani who at that time was associated with Masters and Johnson. But he had a sudden illness in the family his wife and he couldn't make them that meeting. So I'm going I went to Bloomington. And we did and a couple of days of investigation talking to people finding out what what was happening within the walls. So dissipate. And wrote a report. Which in fact I most wrote most of and then I think I went through it.

And I suppose it would be good if I say something about the main points of my report. So the big main point was that. If Indiana University did not have the Kinsey Institute it would not be known worldwide. It's got a great music department and it's got. I guess it's got a very good sports name. But wherever I go in the world people know about Bloomington Indiana and the university there because of the Kinsey Institute. Well my philosophy is that if you've got something that makes you stand out like that. There's a marvelous it. Elizabeth Edwards for that and that's you Clapton say. To be known for. Then you don't throw it away because it gives you a kind of magic. And it's the basis of a mythology. Many of the great academic institutions in this country in the world are great because

they created a myth at the beginning. Harvard was the first big University Johns Hopkins was the first major medical school that broke away from the medieval ways of teaching medicine and started the modern way. And so we have our midst too. It doesn't matter whether we've got competitors who are our equals and how they can't ever equal us as of the beginning and that's the important part of the mythology. And once you have a myth that's a magnet to the tracks everything. Mythologically great to you great students great stuff great libraries great information service great museum collection I'm talking about the Kinsey Institute. So I said whatever criticisms that may need to be made whatever updating in the programs may be advisable under no circumstances should Indiana University get rid of the Kinsey Institute. You also said that perhaps it was time to take a new direction and censor

structure. I think we can assume you advised that at that time. This was a long report that I wrote and so I did with encore of course it was a two of a signed recommend that. We could look to the future of where sex research is going as well as evaluating the cost. And one of the things that I and. I thought very important and I still do. Was that the era of social science survey were. Already had sort of turned a full circle and was at a rest point. Not that I'm against a continuation of that kind of work but you know Kinsey was the first person to do a big major survey of sexual habits and thoughts and ideas and ideologies of people. And you can't really keep going for centuries even for decades after decade decade after decade

on just one. Item on the menu. So I said Well. Whatever is done to continue today this social survey work. I think it's time now to realize that the big new. Frontier in sex alogical research is. Partly in the laboratory and partly in the clinic. And that's got to do with the relationship of hormones and other brain chemistry. To the development of sexuality in general is my special interest that I mentioned was the development of the dimorphism of masculine and feminine. But also the development of how people get to have what on the street you would call kinky sex and in the medical dictionary you would call paraphilia. So my recommendation was that it be very much a matter of Kinsey Institute policy to develop that branch of

sex logical research and to maintain the social science branch but not to have it as the exclusive one. I'm very interested in this particular concept whether or whether it is there or not write about sex research. And about the Kinsey Institute. In its come full circle because what Kinsey did to some extent is that free people from having to think what they had were biologically destined to behave in a certain way as man woman sexually. But now we're finding again the biology. International sure of the biology isn't destiny there is destiny and biology in our orientation and. Drives and that's what. Destiny is biology a bit like the wooden horse of Troy you know. You better be careful once you get it behind the wall. I don't believe that we've actually reverted to.

What it was because Freud's statement in the early part of the century anatomy is this. No I don't think we reverted to that I think what we are doing is. Unraveling the puzzle or. Or. Finding each link in the chain would be a good metaphor. And so we are finding out. How did we get to be masculine or feminine or in-between. How did we get to have just an ordinary. Playing menu in our sexual arousal pattern fantasizing the stuff that goes on between your ears. And how did some people get to have what I've called a vandalised love map I'm actually going to publish a book with that name and next spring. While it's pretty fascinating to find out how it happened not to just be stuck in the mud of saying well it's happened here it is what do we do put it in jail it's free.

That's what we do with the paraphilias these days. So I think it's just fascinating to find out well how did it get put into the brain. I suppose the big mistake that most people make still is that they think if it's biological it's fixed and unchangeable and if it's not biological. I was making a joke and so I suppose it's all caught. Because everything is in the brain if it's anywhere every thought every thought every word that you have is in your brain. There is a biology of learning and remembering. And I think that's what we're finding out now. It's not whether it is in the brain. It surely is there. And so the big question is who put it there or what put it there. And when did it get put there. And. Perhaps most important of all is it stuck. And the model I've frequently so frequently used as an analogy with sexuality and gender. Is native language.

Nobody will argue with me that. You get your native language through your ears. Nor will they argue that it's in your brain. And when. You really get down to it you can't argue that it's going to be. Psychologize the way you want no matter which method of therapy you use your link of language is stuck in your brain and the only person who can get rid of it for you is a neurosurgeon by cutting it out with a knife. And I find all of that way of thinking pretty fascinating when it's applied to the development of sexuality and eroticism and gender status. I think I know partly the answer to this was it has one gender role and gender identity one's in your head and one's in your activities are there isn't our. Gender role that was the first term that I used when I published the concept for the first time in 1955 and I might add in passing that it sort of incubated for about five years before it. Got loose and started to

spread throughout all the sciences. And now you time to read anything about sex without seeing gender. I had a hope at that time when I wrote the actual definition right there in the article that. Your gender role would be two sides of the same coin. One would be everything about it that you know within yourself which is far more than anybody else ever was from the signs that get put out through your voice talking and through your body language. But it didn't work that way so it didn't take very long before it seemed to be necessary to fall in line and have gender role and gender identity and gender identity is everything that you know about yourself including all the secret things that you you wouldn't talk about for fear of self-incrimination and sex that's a big lot let me tell you. And then your gender role is what other people read from the signs that you emanate. I've got

a few years ago to the point where I decided I would write it as a sort of acronym in capitals G with a hyphen and I and a slash N G I R and it is going to be one thing that you kind of pluralize it. So that's the way I do it. Back to the time when you first started and continue a lot of them what do you let was Kinsey's influence and what is his importance other than just opening the door maybe that's it. You know I am almost ashamed to say this but when the first Kinsey book came out in 1948 I was in my first year as a graduate student at Harvard and I don't think anybody paid any attention to it except maybe for the joke which was that if you if you wanted to find out anything about sex in Boston you would give us the magic of

perception test you know over the cards. So you see the pictures and make up a story. If you really want to find out anything about an Indian I was just going to ask people especially whores. But. I did eventually catch up on Kenzie of course and the very important thing about Kinsey was that he blew the idiology of the nation sky high. It wasn't just the religious ideology of 6 but it was the official newspaper idiology that say when people were actually asked what they think what they dream and what they do about sex. It was just so different than what nice people were supposed to be doing if they were conforming. So it showed us that we were not seeing ourselves correctly when we held the mirror up and we had better take a second look. And of course by doing that it opened the door to a much greater degree of

factual honesty about sex and made possible a new a new era of sex research. I think it's important I would always to see history in its context and one of the things that had just been happening when Kinsey got in on his act was that the six homeowners had quite recently been discovered and isolated and it was only in the 1930s you know I keep on remembering that is only in the 1930s that it was possible to synthesize the sex hormones. Before that it had to be extracted and precious as gold. But once the chemical chemistry of synthesizing then was worked out. Well a whole new era of experimental work in the lab and of course treatment in the clinic was opened up. And just being able to talk about hormones and to understand how they regulated behavior in rats in guinea pigs and any other animals that was studied that also opened up the

subject of sex. I didn't know how difficult it was even to study reproduction in monkeys until I talked with William C. Young who had himself trained with Yorkies and I think and listen. And young graduated from Yale and when it was found that his primary research interest was in homeowners and sex he had a great deal of buffeting around a lot of trouble that getting and I could get my pointman because it was still dirty even if you could only it with animal as you say. Well the sex hormones really helped to respectable wise sex because you weren't dealing so much with behavior as you were with chemistry. And so that was some of the background that Kinsey. Had around him and I think that helped him and the two really had a reciprocal influence on one another. And then looking forward a little further ahead than 1948 when the

first book on the mail was published. That was just the springboard getting ready for the development of the contraceptive pill which got on the market in the early 60s roughly. And so here you have this whole new openness about admitting to what your sexual life is like. And then along comes the contraceptive pill. And I always say that although there were some forms of. Birth control of vailable to women. The very special thing about the pill was that you put it in your mouth instead of in your sex organs. And that made it more respectable. And you took it every day in the morning and not just because you were getting ready to send. It was sort of like taking your your daily vitamin pill you say. And so then the whole new era that's become called the sexual revolution opened up and my my preferred name for that is the sexual Reformation. And

now we have the sexual Counter-Reformation that was non-sexual. I just thought about it when you were mentioning Harvard. I had read you going to Harvard of course but you are part of three gigantic mythology because of Harvard and John Hopkins and Kinsey and the others. Gigantic got a pressure on your shoulders. I don't think so. To start there would you want to go that would be a question about Kinsey and who who who with the greatest areas that yeah let's start there since we were humans you were talking about the sexual information and sexual it was appalling. Yeah you mention the pill and I start with my preferred word for perceptual action. Unless you were first out of the I was not a matter of me. I could move around anywhere you wanted. OK my preferred word for the sexual revolution is

actually the sexual Reformation. I guess I am more inclined to see a revolution as a militant uprising with the battle and the Reformation is a change of idiology. And that's exactly what happened with the Sixties and the pill was profoundly important. But the general idea of very effective methods of of contraception was behind it not just the pill itself. There were several other factors in the most important other one was their arrival of antibiotics to make it possible to completely control syphilis and gonorrhea and and not have people dying from them. So there was a change in people's sexual outlook and part of that change was facilitated by what Kinsey had done by allowing people all of us to know

what do my neighbors do in sex what is normal what is abnormal. I put the story of the discovery of sex hormones and their manufacture then the sex survey and revelations of Kinsey and then the Reformation that joined into it it was also contributed to by the pill and the antibiotics. I put them all together because. I think it does help us to understand it was a reformation we went through rather than an actual revolution in the strict sense. But it's also a valuable word that would reform ation because now I can say well we're in the middle of the day. I hope it's the middle of the sexual counter-reformation. Well you know in religion every time you have a reformation you have the old god striking back in a counter-offer mation to maintain the purity of the

status quo in. The good old days were always the best ones except when you were living them. And went to good then. I'm very interested in this Counter-Reformation prophetically speaking of predictably speaking because I really can't see whether it's going to get more rigid and more anti sexual or whether it's going to start easing up. And you know the coincidences of things are what you cannot predict when you're playing the prophet game and the great unpredictable thing in sex as of the present day was the arrival of the new virus of AIDS and it is as truly made sex as unsafe as it used to be when you could get Siva's and gonorrhea. And that is being exploited by the counter-Reformation as people no question about that. So I'm not sure how much we're in a tide that just rolls on and how much it's cut in pieces by elections of new presidents. So maybe we will see something less counter if reform of in the next

administration. This isn't for us was this impasse. She said this. Blue sky high sexually ology that change people the way they thought about their own sexuality to change sex research. When Kinsey blew the lid off sex he blew it off for everybody. Not just the sex research people not just those who would come along soon because of the sex therapy people after Masters and Johnson. Made that a new possibility I was going to say and you thrashing. It should have made it easier friends apologise to study the sexual life of other people other ethnic peoples but that hasn't started to happen until this decade the 80s. But it surely made a big difference for everybody else. And once again I can backtrack and repeat myself and say that

it made the difference because before there'd been the same difference brewing up on the basis of the new availability of hormones especially for sexual problems to be treated. And it made a difference because it was just in time to prepare the way for the sexual reformation that was brought about by the pill in the end about IX. So everybody's been affected and not only in this country but all over the world. When I think of the value of the research I mean you know there's a lot of there's criticism and then there's this. Some people say it is still the best information we have even though it's it's not a proper sampling or. That it's the right middle class that he's surveyed or. I mean I hear all kinds of things. Well the first thing that comes in my mind and I answered to the ever present question of the value of the Kinsey research is to remember that famous statement of Edmund Hillary is one of my special people of course because he's a key wing from New

Zealand. And his answer to the question of why he kind Mount Everest to get to the top and the answer was Because it's there. So the most important I answer to the question of the value of Kinsey research is it's there. It got done. There were two big books came out of it. And it started a reformation. So you know it really doesn't. Historically speaking it really doesn't matter how many questions you can ask of a statistical procedure and. Where the questions should have been were not and so on sure that you can criticize anything if you really try hard enough. But that doesn't take away. The magic in the myth of it being there right. Move wealth it and that that after all that let's talk a little bit about funding and maybe just a little bit of history too of where in the country is it which is about the reformation of where we are now with. Funding for sex research I understand

the counter-Reformation Well AIDS I guess. But it's back to funding if you work on the question of AIDS right. Funding of sex research. Well. I had a. Premonition I guess is the best way to say it. Way back in the fifties that I would put the title of my research grant application longer to know and related psycho hormonal studies and there was sex in it no X anywhere and it's just as well because no computers could ever find me when they had a witch hunt on sexology people. A few years ago I heard an authentic story from one of the branches of the administration I think it was in education somewhere in Washington that an edict went forth that. All new grants that had either women or sex in the title of them would be canceled and no new ones would be

reviewed. So we entered a very tough era for sex a logical research and the funding has become excruciatingly difficult. It happens to be that the same era is the era of bench research and clinical research with real live human beings and even live animal research has been going down the tubes with tremendous amounts of social criticism about the ethics of it. So if you really want to do any sex research these days you'd better be in on the human genome trying to find out something about chromosomes but don't put any x's in them. Or here's a strange paradox. The AIDS problem has made people totally justifiably extraordinarily in need of being careful about sex and sexual partners. But at the same time it has forced the public discussion quite openly about sex.

Not not far enough yet but an eight year old can hear a great deal more about sex on television and discussion of AIDS and he could have 10 years ago. So AIDS may in fact end up by opening up the society to a greater degree of sexual democracy. I've just written a little piece about that because I went to the 10 to a congress of of humanism and had to write my speech out. And one of the big contrasts I'm making is the difference between a genuine sexual democracy and a sexual tyranny. And I think we teach aborting at the moment is that which way it's going to go. And AIDS is therefore. A counter counter reformation. And the continuation of the Reformation continuation the Reformation actually began around the middle of last century. And it had to do eventually with the history of cornflakes.

And John Harvey Kellogg. Who invented cornflakes because he believed that meat gave you being carnivorous you say gave you carnal desires. And so he had not sinned and serials on his menu and his great pleasure was to tinker around in the experimental kitchen at the Battle Creek sanitarium in Battle Creek Michigan. And I say this quite accurately he invented golden flakes as anti masturbation. But the people that were in this circle that he represented and he was the great anti-sexual were also the people who were vegetarians and they were also the people to whom the early movement of the women's suffragette movement gravitated and that was to get to liberate women to have the vote. And it was also another aspect of what was healthy

see like cornflakes to liberate them from its very tight bodices and undergarments that they had to wear. They were the people who who invented the pence and they used to argue about how long the tunic should beat it was decent to leave you covered knees showing off. Very religious you say. But they also of the people who got into the water cure and so they were in fact the inventors of the American bathroom which was then spread around the world and then having got the vote which was toward the end of the century or some countries as late as the 1920s that part of the suffragette movement of the women's liberation movement went into a kind of dormancy. And it woke up again with the pill. History really does interconnect doesn't it. And then this time it became the movement for equal rights in career vocation

except that it didn't require equal rights for men. They were sort of. And so so bad and so no good that they were allowed to just keep their own traditions and the women were going to have two careers one motherhood and wife for the second one out and in the marketplace. So I'm wondering what's going to happen in stage 3 of the liberation reformation movement as we go into the next century. Predictions. It depends whether we have a sexual tyranny which turns the clock back or sexual democracy which opens it more. But eventually one is going to have to solve in society the problem of the distribution of labor. When you don't have a bi modal dichotomy of women do this and men do that. You've got to have them both being able to switch back and forth and that's a big challenge now. Men have to be as good at running a household as women have to be as good at operating in the boardroom. We have to solve the problem of the boardroom versus the

bedroom. Well good stuff. OK. Do you have anything that you can think of that if you were doing a documentary on the Kinsey Institute that you would. Want somebody to ask. If I were doing a documentary on the Kinsey Institute I would want to bring it right into center stage. The whole business of the criminalization of sex. Because that is one of the fancy moves of the counter-Reformation people and they were very sneaky about it they started with making what looked like a very decent thing the criminalization of everything that had to do with paedophilia. Which was always name child abuse and child molestation. But in fact what they did was to criminalize the normal healthy development of all sexual behavior and and sexual mentality in childhood so that people are actually scared to do any research on the study of children

in case they get accused of being child molesters. And that means that we have absolutely literally not one single pediatric sexology clinic in the world. So nobody is interested in what the determinants of sexual health in children. And so we sit helplessly by like watching the crash of the Challenger and watch our children crash on behavior that sexually criminal including the really tough one serial sexual murders lust murdering. And we don't know how to stop it. We. Fall back on that very ancient custom of thinking that if you kill people you'll kill a problem but you don't you know if you kill a person. And so I would really want to have a whole new building in the Kinsey Institute dedicated to the development of normal sexuality and eroticism from childhood onwards and that of course would enable really basic research to be done on. The

development of abnormalities. So for me that would be a normal love maps versus vandalised love maps crooked and and distorted ones. And I really would like to know how to control the development of each of them. And one a lot of money it would save society not have to put so many hundreds of thousands of people in jail over sex. You know we never think that we pay for you know how much it costs in in Maryland to keep a person in jail more than to send them to the medical school at Johns Hopkins for a year. It's up to $50000 a year to keep a person in jail. Green The money doesn't come down on flying sources either. Nor did the sex offenders are the average person's idea of a sex criminal is somebody who's 28 years old or older and who came down from Mars on a flying saucer but is not one of us as it.

Is not the kid whose father and lawyer called me from Indiana the other way because he was in trouble with some crazy sexual behavior. You see it really happens and in the end. They do more than just ask questions you find out about sex. Excellent. Anything else you want to add because it's just super stuff. You know I think I think I try to say. Thank you. OK. OK let's start out with. With. It By the way everything that I say is edited out. So you need to make a complete statement. You need to say things like. You answer with a complete

statement you know what I mean this is life so good going to be edited. I mean this is not like just because I mean tape that's right alas right. Yeah I hear. You were sent to. Your college student and honestly tell me the story of how you begin your history. Central history to Africans. Oh. Well I didn't just get my sexual history. Kinsey Kinsey got around 70 other sexual histories that are made because essentially I was working for him. I was a college student the senior and I had a friend out of the University of Iowa but the University of Indiana and start over. So. I went to the University of Iowa. Yeah right. OK. You start with I didn't like that.

I did want to talk in answer to your question. But this goes back to the winter of 1940 I was a senior in college here in New York City and a friend of mine was doing graduate work at the University of Indiana. Kenzie was coming to New York. He didn't know anybody in New York and he wanted someone to help him round up people to be interviewed. One negative was. Just done in the beginning. Of. The week. Yeah well. That's because in fact the late. Fall of 1940. I was a student a senior city here. Let's start again. I think. This goes back to the fall of 1940 too. I was a senior at college here. And I had a

friend doing graduate work out at the University of Indiana. Well she knew Kinsey Kenzie was coming to New York and he didn't know many people in New York. So he was looking for someone to help him make contact with prospective respondents and somehow I got involved I was a kind of ideal idealistically kid and I thought the world should be reformed and conceit was doing that. So Kenzie and I met the night he came to New York I remember it was November. He asked me to meet him in his hotel room. This was nineteen forty two I was a little uncomfortable. But I went up there and he was just great. And the interview and they on the spot I was the first person interviewed in New York. Well after that it became my mission to find other people to be interviewed. I should

mention I got paid I got paid a dollar apiece. Well just about everybody that I could. Get close to was asked to be interviewed and I think 76 people consented so that's how many interviewers I got paid for and they said I've included my mother and father. My sister. Almost all my friends. The man who sold me coffee in the corner coffee shop and his wife. And a pile a lot of people I didn't even know I just went up to code and they call it the cafeteria. And invited to be interviewed. And that was really what took place is telling me that you and your friend lying. Can See that's how you answer. If there was anything I could say about cancers technique

it's that he was so detached you couldn't feel you were talking about sex at all you could as easily have been talking about the state of the weather. I was uneasy about it but I found myself talking very very freely kill him although I thought I would and that. I lied. To my friend about her. Life. When we met after each of us had been interviewed we compared notes and I said did you tell them that. She said yes. I said everything. She paused and said you know well it turned out that we had both lied. We had both lied about the same thing. We had both lied about our weight and each of us had lied by £2 so much for on a stage where everything else I believe I can say the truth.

Of course. I felt great about it and so I hope that the people whom I brought around to be interviewed. Some of them told me by the way some of the young women that it was extremely beneficial to them. As they answered Kinsey's questions. Kenzie was also able to answer their questions. As you can imagine college girls and all girls college in 1940 to which was much more sheltered time than 1988. Like a lot of uncertainties and this givings had questions and things they wanted to get resolved and several of them tell me afterwards that Kinsey was able to go work and that they were very grateful to him. There was another aspect to my. Recruiting for kids and. I did a good deal of it in the school I was attending which was to me a nice role because

most of my most of the people I knew were there and those were the people I could easily speak to. I was certain point the color just our kids got wind of that. And they were absolutely outraged. The notion that their girls were subjected to. An interview. On their sex lives by men. Not that it would have been better for where a woman was simply beyond their right. I thought I had be smirch the reputation of the college and for all that I was due to graduate in a month. They were right eager to expel me. Well. I wasn't too worried about that frankly because being young and idealistic I didn't much mind the idea of being expelled. I remember one of the things they asked me was Did my mother know what I had been doing. I was so proud to tell

them that my mother that I interviewed as my father finally of course can see himself and. He was absolutely dead. I'm sure that he's had to tolerate a good deal of that sort of thing. But this really blew his mind. So he went down there with all his documentation from the Rockefeller Institute. And. I hope Chris worried at the time that he was on the level. And parents at a place threatened to create such a scandal if they did try to do anything of that sort. That they quieted down very quickly. And sure enough I graduated with my class. In January. I want to ask you to. Tell that story again. I'm really sure that you know I like the long one and if I can use it I will but I want to use the story. So give me a couple options by telling that same story about about Kinsey going to refuse and you almost can take that as cool as a real tiny little blurb. And that assures me I OK more likelihood of being able to use it.

One of the side effects of my working for Kinsey is that I was threatened with being expelled from college when the Coventry authorities found out what I had been doing. And that there are students all girls were being subjected to interviews about their sex lives by this strange man. They were absolutely outraged. They were very concerned about the reputation of their college and I wanted to exploit me. For all that I was due to graduate a month later. They asked me in outrage of my mother knew what I was doing and I told them of course she knew she had been interviewed. Finally they asked to meet with Kinsey who is pretty furious himself. So he came down with all his documentation from the Rockefeller Institute and also indicated that effect tried to do anything of the sort. He would create a scandal which would make

them wish they had never. It's one way or another it quieted down and I did get into and out well regulated and I don't mean this to be an offensive question I mean because it is a good question. Kinsey has been criticized because he they say doesn't really have a cross-section of the population because especially when it came to interviewing women because a woman. A woman you know who had good morals when you gave her history we were there before. Have you. Well I want to paraphrase you. Yes yeah ok. Exactly I just I just wanna be sure you're OK to answer. People always wondered whether Kinsey sample was representative since it was going on volunteers and there was a sense that. Individuals with more outrageous stories to tell would be happier to tell them. This was a big issue and I tried to persuade people to be interviewed. Because often they would say but I don't have anything to tell him

and I would answer and sadly that's precisely why he needs you. If only people who had something to tell him were interviewed he'd get a terribly distorted picture. So I hope I did what I could in that respect. But as I'm as I'm sure everyone knows can see interviewed hundred percent poles and presidents and fraternity and sorority houses and classes and everywhere where he could get everyone he dead. This really helped to make the sample representative. And in fact it's still being quoted to this to this day I don't think anything better has been produced. OK can you think I think. Can I think of any kids stories or any questions that the questions people have about the interviews that I have and I want to know what he asked and I'm not allowed to ask you that. I promised instructed I wouldn't but you can answer no entirely. I know I barely remember. Her but it was along in that interview you talked about you know if I feel like 300 some

questions I don't then I guess so I think it must have read so if you said no to certain I'm right. Genting right yeah. Yeah. I think his basic plan was like 200. OK. Yeah. I was uneasy when I started that first interview but I can say very quickly put me at rest. The interview was long. I think mine took about three quarters of an hour and I couldn't have had the most to tell about it when I was 20 years old. But. It was pretty thorough. And he and I did touch them and sensational way. Went into a lot of questions and pretty well covered all the ground and then asked me if I wanted to ask any question he said Of course I did. Good good excellent. Here's an impressive man wasn't it.

But I feel like Oh gee. Can I find very compelling. Most people I think what I remember most about Kinsey's Niner is that he was so cold and so steady he never raised his voice he never raised his eyebrows nothing that you said was going to throw him either because he had heard much more lurid material or because he had just disciplined himself not to register emotion. He put people at ease immediately but he was a large and sort of 20 colored reddish hair ready complection low voice he never raised his voice. And he was a very comfortable person to the list. So I don't want to tell you something else if you think. About it. If. It casts a shadow on the question of bias but I'll tell

it any way you can you sort of want to go. He did say he was rather eager to make contact with a organize tell my sexual community exiting. Now that was not an easy assignment for a 20 year old heterosexual college girl but I thought I would see what I could do. I had met briefly over coffee in a certain cafeteria not close one member of what I took to the insides. I went to the cafeteria. Hoping to run into him. I knew his name and so I asked other people around us that has seen him and he had come and they said he might be in later. So I sat and took myself a cup of coffee and played it and waited

and waited. I musta been there around 2 hours and somehow in the questionably evening a young boy of perhaps 17 sat down at my table. I asked him the question I had been asking everyone that I know that did you know this person. Yes I have seen him. Can See It was good to join the later in the evening and when he came then he sat down with the young boy. He didn't even so much as glance at me but he looked with great interest at the young boy who may offer to buy dinner and returned with his dinner and the boys and said no to me to clear out. So I did. I naturally don't know what the boy told Kenzie but tense he told me that it was one of the half dozen most important interviews he had ever had. So I don't know where this young boy led can't say oh why did branched out and kill. But of course it was like that when you could see interview with one thing

led to another. Good story. Cash ALL BECAUSE OF YOU. If ever you have to be because of somebody. Yeah the right place at the right time kind of thing. Yeah terrific that's I mean that's what I want to mushroom is there anything else you can think of that you know that's super good stuff. Oh let's say I guess the suffix like the stories and just. As good. Yeah oh yeah I. Do. This little repetitious Kenzie had told me that he would go anywhere for a half dozen interviews and one of the places he went was my mother's house. He interviewed my mother my father my sister three of my sisters friends and two of my friends. He must have been there for hours but this was very characteristic of the way he worked he was never

afraid to discommode himself. They because he was after those interviews and he got them. Another thing he told me is that when he drove he used to pick up his check. And. Usually he would end up at that interviewing the hitchhiker. Now I had done a certain amount of hitchhiking of my own life at that point and I kept thinking golly I would absolutely terrified. I love riding with a strange man. And he started to ask me about being interviewed on ice slides. I would rather live where it is. But it was characteristic of Kinsey that he could handle this and he did. Achieve his own goals. Good lesson over things. Can you imagine.