Focus 580; Coal and Energy Policy in Illinois

This is focused 580. It's our telephone talk program Money's David Ensor and we're glad to have you with us this morning in the first hour of the show today. We will be talking about coal and energy policy here in Illinois and it's intended to bring you a different set of views in a sense to balance a program that we did a couple of weeks ago with some representatives of the coal industry on the 22nd of May. We had three guests on the show Taylor Pensa now president of the Illinois Coal Association. We had Roger Dennison who is chairman of the Coal Association He's also president and general manager of tourist coal company and the third guest Mike Murphy. He's the chief of the Illinois office of coal development which is part of the Department of Commerce and community affairs and that time we were talking about the potential for coal in the state. And also talking about legislation that was moving through the state house in Springfield that would provide some benefits and incentives to the industry to try to revive it at that time. There was a little bit of uncertainty. What legislation would passed. I think they were seen to be fairly certain that something would pass and indeed it

did. The legislature has passed a package three and a half billion dollars that they hope will revive the industry here in the state of Illinois and among other things provide money to build new coal burning power plants. That has now gone to the governor it's awaiting his signature and I think everyone expects that he will sign it. Environmental groups however are not really terribly happy about this proposal for a number of reasons and will get a reaction this morning to it. And generally to the idea of burning more coal to generate electricity here in the state of Illinois and our guest is Diane Brown executive director of the Public Interest Research Group of Illinois and as we talk of course questions comments are welcome as always. We all only ask that people who are calling in just try to be brief and we ask that so we can keep things moving along and working as many people as possible. Anyone's welcome to call here in Champaign-Urbana. The number 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. And we do also have a toll free line that's good anywhere that

you can hear us. And that is eight hundred to 2 2 9 4 5 5 so again locally 3 3 3 W I L L and toll free 800 1:58 WY. Miss Brown. Hello. Good morning. Thanks very much for talking with us. Thank you. I'm sure that we can get some specifics but I guess generally I'll start out by asking for your reaction to this legislative package that made it through the General Assembly and we expect the governor will sign it. Well I think you know we look at it if it just says we're at a crossroads in the nation for how we're going to address our energy needs. We too are at a crossroads here in Illinois and we're concerned that this package really was a rushed through process in terms of looking at overall what is the energy needs for Illinois not only short term but longer term as well. We're particularly concerned when there are more incentives given to coal because we see that it is

a very polluting industry here in Illinois. Seventeen hundred people hurt dying each year due to coal fired power plant pollution. Thirty three thousand asthma attacks are triggered again just by these old coal fired power plants and although we're looking at using newer plants in Illinois they're still going to be a number of death and disease that is being created from that and we prefer to see money being given in incentives for renewable and efficiency. Well let me follow up on just that for a moment because I'm sure that some people would in reacting to what you said about the health impact of coal burning power plants they might say something like well yes we know that those kinds of plants do result in air pollution but it's our understanding that the main the main source of air pollution is the automobile. And given that fact how can you be so specific in saying you're actually putting a

number on deaths and illness and say this is a direct result of burning coal in these power plants. Well there have been a couple of different reports Don just in the last year alone. One of them by abt Associates which is a consulting firm that the United States Environmental Protection Agency often uses the other by the Harvard School of Public Health the Harvard School of Public Health really just looked at the nine north. Coal fired power plants in Illinois and both of them basically concluded the same thing they were able to through their modeling determine how many people die in number of asthma attacks. They were also able to find that just by cleaning up the old coal fired power plants we have in Illinois. We could reduce those public health impacts by about two thirds which is quite significant. However it means that even by cleaning up these old ones the new ones that are coming on line today still have some public health impacts with them and that's why we're really concerned. I'd also point out that this 700 premature death is more

deaths than are caused by motor vehicle accidents or homicides in Illinois. So we're talking about quite a significant problem. Not to say that you know one way to to die is you know less harsh than another but this is something that is taking a toll on people in Illinois and it's something that we can change for the better. And we think that that's the direction we should be heading in. One of the aspects of this legislation is it's it's been essentially providing money that would encourage the building of new. One would hope State of the art plants. The plan is that they would be built close to the source of the coal so that would cut down on transportation cost and with the latest technology. And it then that could be used to generate power that would benefit probably the the southern part of the state. What's your take on this. The kind of technology that would be used in these plants and how much better would it be than some of the older plants that are in operation now.

Well it will certainly be better and we are you know we are pleased with that. However I would point out that the federal government now has paid two billion dollars in money that has been given to the coal industry to look at. You know quote clean coal technologies is actually federal subsidies and they have not yet achieved any real breakthrough reductions in smog and pollution have not addressed Mercury global warming pollution at all. We you know think that clean coal is really an oxymoron and we can have you know we can burn coal cleaner through scrub or through some of the technology that the state of Illinois is looking at right now. But it still is going to burn. You know dirty it still is not going to be as clean as it could be and it's still going to cause public health impacts and again we think that really we're going down a road that's going to continue using coal for a period of time when instead we should really be looking at where we're investing our money and our

resources and looking at promoting and encouraging efficiency and renewable sources of energy. But we would still have to we've still got to have. We cannot immediately move away from the kinds of energy generating technologies that we're using now even if we decided that today we wanted to do that that's going to take some time. Absolutely and we you know and I purred and I think that the public health and environmental community all recognize that coal is going to be part of the Foreseeable energy mix for the future. And we understand that we recognize that but I think there's a difference toward recognizing that coal going to be part of that mix for starting us on the path to shifting away from polluting sources of energy and starting us shifting more to IRD efficiency in renewable sources of energy. One thing that I know your organization is concerned with that and you're disappointed that this legislation does not address is the pollution that's generated by older plants. And apparently what happened when the Clean Air Act was passed now. Thirty one years ago and then

was subsequently amended. The legislation basically grandfathered the older plants because it was argued that those plants would soon be could be out of service and so they should be exempt. So I argued that the operators of the plant they should be exempt from the law. And so Congress said Okay the problem apparently is though that there are a number of these older plants still operating in Illinois that don't have to meet the federal clean air standards. And you think that that's that something that should have been addressed. Yes I think that's a major loophole as you noted you know a number of these plants have been built in the 40s and the 50s in the 60s and we think about all the technology the technological advances that have taken place since that period of time. You know you look at the automobile and how much cleaner we've made it even in the last 20 years. We really need to close that loophole. My understanding is that the legislation that is before the governor really focus a lot on the newer plants recognizing that you know the newer plants are going to be cleaner

and that they aren't going to cause the same kind of public health impacts. However at the same time you know there is a good economic disadvantage for these newer plants because the older plants don't cost as much to you know to upkeep. They aren't being as efficient in their operations and there's nothing to really deter them from going ahead and polluting. There is my understanding in the package money that is set aside for first scrubbers for some of these older plants who may want to you know clean up their act a little bit more but really what we need to do is make sure that all of these plants meet modern air pollution standards and aren't enabled to pollute up to five times as much as the newer plants do today. Apparently there is there is as part of this legislation there is supposed to be the EPA is supposed to at least look at this question. Are there is there a need for new state regulations to deal with emissions by these older plants that are not subject to the federal air quality standards.

Yeah and there was a separate piece of legislation that is also on its way to the governor's desk that basically does just that and it's also as you mentioned you know part of this larger package but by establishing this regulatory process that we can reduce air pollution from these old coal fired power plants we're really I think on the way to being able to address this problem. You know we have confidence that the Illinois Environmental Protection Agency has been listening to public health and environmental concerns over these old coal fired power plants and will look at what the emission standards will be and look at the timetable we really need to start addressing these issues now we need to address them in a comprehensive and not a piecemeal manner so we're hoping that the governor will sign this piece alleges piece of legislation that will be able to move forward with having some real emission standards in place. Yeah and I guess just to go back to something you said it was my understanding again that to what one feature of the legislation is it does provide five hundred million dollars that

essentially would be available that it would be a loan to. Have people buy scrubbers put them on the older plants and then over time they be able to pay that back right. And I think you know one of the you know concerns with this piece of legislation is knowing you know is this something that industry will then go ahead into or will they be prefer instead to start you know having more plants in place. When we look at you know kind of the renewable side of it there's also money in this package for that which you know we're we're happy that it addresses that. But at the same time we don't know of people in the renewable you know industry that have been contacted about this prior and that will take advantage of it and we think that it you know basically short changes some of the efficiency in renewable. I can introduce again at this point our guest for this hour focus 580 Diane Brown is executive director of the Public Interest Research Group of Illinois we're talking about coal and energy

policy in Illinois or intending to provide you a different point of view from that we had on the show two weeks ago when we had three representatives of the coal industry on the program talking about the potential as they sought for Illinois coal as a generator of energy in this state and in particular we're talking about this legislation that at that time there were several versions that were in the general assembly. They did finally decide on one and it is it. It's gone to the desk of the governor we are expecting that the governor will sign it. And among others it will do some of the things that we've talked about including providing money in the form of state bonds for building new power plants new state of the art power plants to burn coal oil and coal in the southern part of the state. Questions are welcome three three three W I L L toll free 800 1:58 W while if you want to give us a call. Where are now the. As far as you're concerned the most problematic coal. Burning power plants in the state.

Well in the Chicagoland area I think one of the things. Just step back for one second that a number of people you know always associate coal with Southern Illinois. However I think it's important for people to recognize that there are 24 old coal fired power plants in the state and they really are situated across the state. I'm not going to single anyone out for being the worst but I will say that you know Illinois Perak has done a number of reports over the last couple of years. We have seen that there are a number of plants in the Chicagoland area that rank in the top 20 in the nation in terms of mercury pollution. So we're concerned about some of those plants. We're concerned about. You know plants in central Illinois that have also shown up on the top 20 list for smog forming and mercury pollution. So they really are you know kind of situated all across the state and you are you would not expect that if new plants were built that were cleaner that would

necessarily mean that the older plants that were dirtier would be closed down. Correct and they have you know one of the one of our biggest concerns as you noted is that we really feel that these old coal fired power plants have now been very well documented in terms of the. Kind of public health impacts that that they create and we really need to address that situation in you know more of a comprehensive manner is we're starting to look at what we do for our energy resources both in the short term and in the long term but this is one where we know that just by meeting modern air pollution standards and you know closing that federal loophole that we can really go a long way toward that or protecting public health. I know that as you said your organization is interested in promoting more is promoting conservation energy efficiency cleaner sources of energy and so forth. We do however have the significant resource here in the state of Illinois. It is probably in some part problematic because it's got a lot of sulfur in it and it seems that so far

with the research that we put into developing cleaner coal technologies hasn't to date hasn't yielded a great deal although I think the industry would like to say that we're now at the point where finally these millions of dollars that we spent should actually pay off. What do you see though at least in the short run some potential for using that resource that coal. An energy generator. Yeah absolutely. You know we we know that it's going to be part of the mix and we know that you know there's a lot of you know a lot of interest in Illinois to be able to use it at you know economically speaking for jobs and for you know a number of other factors. However I think it's also important for us to recognize that by using wind or by using solar or by using you know some of the cleaner sources of of energy that we can also create jobs we can also stimulate the economy in Illinois and that we need to be able to give those a chance.

They have not seen the kind of subsidies that coal has seen. You know we have great resources of all kinds in Illinois and I think we really need to be not just using one particular you know resource we need to be really looking at more of a mix in the air and what we're talking about is not you know a dramatic shift overnight but really looking at getting more toward 10 percent. A renewable mix by the year 20 10 and 20 percent by the year 2020 and I think that you know reasonable it's a way that we can you know show that we're kind of shifting in making that kind of investment. The Environmental Law and Policy Center did a report recently called repairing the Midwest that basically shows how we can you know use these different sources of fission see in renewable energy to start in that direction here in all Illinois and across the Midwest and I think that's something that really needs to be given serious consideration.

Well in terms of renewables What do you think has the greatest potential for us here in the state. I think you know there's a mix there as well being able to use when being able to use solar. I think we really have a good opportunity to be looking at both of those. Again neither of them are going to make up a majority of the mix for the future but we need to start moving in a direction that will enable us to recognize that we can. See those kinds of you know non non polluting sources in the mix and that we can reduce a lot of the public health impacts because of them. One feature of this legislation we've been talking about is there also. There is also some money to finance renewable energy projects wind and solar it's and in fact equal to the amount that they've allocated for putting scrubbers into the older power plants 500 million dollars I assume you would think that it would be great if it was even more money but what do you think about that the

fact that that at least has been included. Well we're we're very happy that at least it's been addressed and recognize that we need to be looking at that yeah. We would love to see it be more the one concern that we have with with that as well is again kind of the whole package is that this doesn't really lay out a plan of what we're going to be doing in Illinois. You know kind of short term and long term hit it. Kind of sets us on the path to be using a lot more coal but without knowing if there are people in the renewable industry that are going to be able to take advantage of this or if this is something that will you know create new businesses in Illinois and one of the things that we've seen is that within the last year we've been very pleased that the governor's office has had a couple of summits that have looked at the issue of clean air and coal in Illinois they've had an environmental forum that has addressed this topic recently. They were requesting input for an energy plan. We're little

concerned that this than you know three point five billion dollar packages come out without you know kind of a collection of all of those different meetings and summits and the ability to then really look at you know what their plan should be we would have preferred the process to take in a little bit longer. We're usually not in a position where we say that but being able to really look at how much money do we need to be better promoting renewables having people at the table that are from those businesses that can talk about what their needs would be to be able to create more jobs for Illinois and to better. Protect public health and protect the environment is the state of Illinois now. Putting any money into developing renewable energy sources. I am not exactly sure what the budget is right now for either efficiency or for renewables I know that it is something that the Illinois Environmental Protection Agency has talked about I know that they are you know also make money

to make sure that we are you know kind of looking a little bit more in this direction in the future. However you know we're concerned that this package isn't really significantly addressing the type of shift that we will need to make to be able to have more of a balance for the future. We are just about at the midpoint of our program here and I think we're going to get a caller lined up and others would be certainly welcome to pick up the telephone and join us. You got questions comments we'd be very happy to hear from you Diane Brown as our guest executive director of the Public Interest Research Group of Illinois. However first we need to do this. This is a test of the Emergency Alert System. This is focused 580 our telephone talk program here on AM 580 My

name's David Inge and we're talking this morning about energy policy here in Illinois. We've been talking specifically about coal and its place in the Illinois energy mix and we're doing it in a sense to try to provide some alternative views to those expressed in program a couple weeks ago when we had three representatives here on the show of the coal industry. Taylor pence and president of the Illinois Coal Association Roger Denison. He's the chairman of the association He's also in the coal mining business. He's the president general manager of Taurus coal. Mike Murphy was also here Chief of the Illinois office of coal development and we were talking about the potential for use of Illinois coal and also this legislation that at the time was being discussed in the general assembly there where. A couple of different packages and finally that all got worked out and it moved through and now has gone to the governor and everyone is I think expecting him to sign it that it would provide money to do a number of things including building new power plants new coal burning power plants in the southern part of the state and here in this part of the show we're getting a reaction from

an environmental organization the Public Interest Research Group of Illinois Diane Brown as our guest She's executive director. Questions are welcome we have somebody ready to go others are certainly invited to call 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 4 champagne Urbana toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. The color here is in Belgium and line number four. Hello. Oh yes. You folks haven't touched on this and I don't know that anybody touches on this. Aspect of coal and coal fire generation in your discussion of a few days ago with the other representatives you you talked about the cost of coal and you thought it was so cheap in everything which for Illinois coal it is cheap but clone is is is priced also upon the amount of heat it produces. In Illinois Coal is a soft coal and soft coals do not produce near as much heat as a hard cold on the East Coast. And so being a witch is

anthracite coal now because of that we have to burn a lot more coal to produce the same amount of energy to produce the power. Well that means that the dirtiest coal is the most you have to use the most of the dirty coal to produce the same amount of power. So even though we have a lot of it and we probably have a very valuable resource in some ways it's really not good to be burning in a power plant because it is the dirtiest. And no matter how much you scrub you're never going to be able to get it as clean as you can get the anthracite coal. Seems to me that the best way to deal with it is to utilize it in either making alcohol or other gasoline type products to use you know petroleum based products that they use in South Africa and places like that. The Germans used it in World War Two to produce their fuels. So it's not a it's not a technology that's not unknown and utilize them say wind or

solar or. Or nuclear which I'm sure your guest may not be very positive towards nuclear but it is the very cleanest of heat energy sources as far as solar heating goes. I mean I'm you know not a solar atmospheric warming goes. What's your opinions about that. Well I think you hit upon something that I'd like to kind of keep keep going on for a second there. The overall you know cost issue I think is one that oftentimes does get cited back in terms of you know why we should be using more coal and oil and I think you're right in terms of efficiency and in terms of being able to use it at power plants. It obviously is extremely polluting source. One of the reasons that the you know kind of package got thrown together was to be able to you know kind of simulate the Southern Illinois coal industry in David you had mentioned earlier that we actually use a lot of western coal that is you know kind of one of the reasons why I think this

package was put together was because there is you know concern that we're using a lot more western coal than Illinois coal and wanted to come up with with you know kind of creative ways to provide some intensive food to be able to use it here. I think one of the other factors that many people aren't aware of and we're just starting to get a lot of more research in on this right now is that when the cost of you know kind of wind capacity when energy capacity has really. Dropped dramatically in you know the last 10 20 years and so I think you know again the cost is always a concern to you know to every consumer every citizen of the state. And we really you know need to be looking at that as part of the calculation but I think we also need to be looking at part of the calculation of how much does it cost for people that are taking time off of work that you know people that are having to rush their children or you know their parents to the doctor to the hospital because of health costs associated with

the air that they're breathing. And you know I think in general while there may be cleaner sources of coal you know you did hit it right that it's not the place to be burning it in in these coal fired power plants but in overall we need to really be looking at how can we be reducing You know any kind of impact that coal has to public health and to the environment and how can we be getting on a road for the future that is going to minimize those those impacts. Well the the past history of miniature is pour in that they kept changing the regulations and the cost of the plant from nuclear is much higher but the price per kilowatt hour is much much lower for nuclear when it's amortised across the entire gamut of the situation. If you want. Basically design the plants that they work right you don't have to change them every day you think you're good at the job to build it. But that's a totally nother nother topic.

You're right and we obviously do have some concerns with with nuclear power as well. You know there has been no no place to dispose of the the way they're created by nuclear power and you know we also don't feel that we should be heading in a direction of creating more a more radioactive waste without having a solution of what we need to do with it. That is the major drawback with nuclear power. Thank you very much Ana thank you and I do want to mention by the way that on Thursday we will be talking about nuclear energy and its place in the administration's energy plan and we'll be talking with David Locke Bamma He's a nuclear safety engineer with the Union of Concerned Scientists This is an organization that has said they're very concerned about the idea of building new nuclear power plants expanding the. Segment of the nuclear generation in the energy mix in this country so obviously that's a point of view that's going to say that they're not happy about the idea of building new plants. We will have we don't have somebody scheduled now but we will have somebody on the program to represent the industry point of view so

again we want you to try to get both but at least we're going to try to get at it in one respect this week on Thursday at 10 o'clock. So if you're interested you might want to tune in for that and other questions are welcome 3 3 3 W I L L toll free 800 1:58 W while I'm just just for a second just to toss out a number. Nother number we were talking about the fact that here we have this resource of coal in the state of Illinois but it's high sulfur and it's problematic and so we're even though we have coal here we're importing coal to burn and power plants and most of the coal that gets produced in this state 60 something like 65 percent of Illinois coal actually goes out of the state. It's sold to utilities in other states. Well yeah go ahead. Pick up on it I know we don't really want to get into the whole you know California. What is it mean. You know here in Illinois one of the other things that I would just kind of note that we're also concerned about is that

Illinois really doesn't have an electricity capacity shortage right now. There's been research recently done that show that even if no new power plants were built in the next 10 years we would still have 30 percent more capacity than we would need to meet peak power demand in Illinois in just you know kind of a benchmark the industry basically says you want to have 20 percent in reserve to be able to you know to feel safe and comparable with the new power plants that are already planned are under construction. It's estimated that Illinois will have 60 percent more capacity than is needed by the year 2010. So we're also concerned you kind of brought up the you know kind of out of state. I think it's also of concern that we're you know potentially going to be sending you know even more electricity by out of state but the people here in Illinois are going to be feeling the public health impacts because some of the research that that Harvard and others have done is show that you know the

people who are living closest to these plants no surprise are the ones that are you know feeling the greatest public health impacts. And so you know I think it's another one of those measures of why are we you know putting more money here. And you know we're really looking at how does this all you know it play when we're looking at more of a comprehensive plan when we're looking at you know what are we going to be doing for the future. Well I think it's perfectly relevant to bring up the situation elsewhere because those people who are arguing for building new plants in the state are in a sense they're referencing at there they're saying well we want to make sure that in the future here in the state of Illinois we can meet Illinois energy needs and so that's definitely an underlying justification for the very idea of building new plants particularly those that would serve consumers downstate. It seems to me that's that's part of what's behind this idea that well we're going to provide funds so that we can build these new plants. Yes they're going to use Illinois coal

they're going to be state of the art they're going to be near the mines so it'll be more efficient and so forth but it seems that the underlying thing that they're suggesting here is that we might have power problems in the future providing enough power to say let's make sure we don't have that problem and to do that then we're going to build some new plants. Right and we think it's you know totally reasonable to be looking at you know and we would expect that our state leaders are going to be looking at our supply you know both now and in longer term. However we don't we again think that this process of 3.5 billion was somewhat rushed and that it really didn't take into account all of the you know the plans that are already underway or the construction that's already underway in the state and looking at what that makes. Would be in having the kind of input from the public health and environmental community people who are in the renewable industry and others to really be able to to

have that more of an open process. I mean you mentioned that there were several versions of this piece of legislation floating around myself and others were down there as this was moving you know through the Senate and it was difficult to even be able to get a full copy of the bill before it was being voted on to be able to you know adequately address some of the concerns that we you know that we had to and that weve had since being able to you know look at it a little bit closer. We're coming to the point here where we have maybe about 10 or 12 minutes left in this first hour of focus 580 and perhaps again I'll introduce our guest We're talking with Diane Brown executive director of the Public Interest Research Group of Illinois. We're talking about energy policy here in the state of Illinois and the role that coal Illinois Coal can play in power generation. Two weeks ago we had some coal industry representatives here on the show and want to provide you with a different point of view particularly a different perspective on this legislation that we've talked about that's gone through the General Assembly will be everyone expects I think will be signed

by the governor. Legislation that is aimed at trying to revive the coal industry here in the state of Illinois. Questions welcome 3 3 3 W I L L toll free 800 to 2 to W while one of the thing we actually haven't mentioned that that's also part of this legislation is. So money three hundred million dollars again is these are bonds that would be available to upgrade the transmission grid. That is the the wires the wires that essentially that get the electricity from the plant to our houses. Is there some concern that the transmission grid in the state is aging is not in good shape possibly even leaking in the sense that you want to make sure that the power that's generally generated gets to the people who use it and doesn't get lost along the way I suppose if there were problems with the transmission grid in fact that might happen that that some energy would would not get to where it's actually supposed to go and a sense would be wasted. Is there is

there. Some concern about the the quality the efficacy of the indent the integrity of that transmission lines. Well we we have heard that it when I purge has not specifically studied that but we've we've heard that from others who are you know more intimately involved with this aspect of the legislation but then also on the you know kind of the operation is well and you know we have every reason to trust that we do need to you know kind of update and basically make sure that we're upgrading some of the systems that are in place right now as well. You know I don't know that we're at a crisis point right now but I do think you know it's important to kind of prevent future problems that may exist and to be able to address some of those issues. You know now vs. in the future when they do get to the point where you know people are becoming even more concerned. We have some of the calls we have somebody on a cell phone so I want to get right to them. OK online number one.

Hello. Yes Martin I have a question. Is there a website that lists the location. The proposed plan may be some kind of a map and also some of these plans I believe are actually in the Shawnee forest now that work with the federal government. Oh I think I must thank you. All right. I don't know I don't know that there are have very definite potential sites been identified for new plants. I am not sure exactly where all the new plants are being proposed. I mean I know there are some that are you know on in the works right now and I don't know that it's on anyone's website I can't. I think the Illinois Environmental Protection Agency would be probably the best source to be able to get the updated permit requests from the old coal fired power plants. Illinois purred. We have a map and we list those on our website and that is w w w Illinois PIRG.

All one word dot o r g we also to my my quick little plug here we have additional information on this issue and ways to get involved on our website as well. There's also other resources and links to a couple of the other organizations that we've been working on this issue with and is somebody talking about putting a power plant in the Shawnee National Forest I have not heard that. I'm not sure could you. Could you do that. That's a good question I I would hope that you couldn't. And I think that there are enough there are some good good you know kind of regulations regarding national forests. You know we have been very concerned with a lot of the policies that have been promoted as well on a federal level dealing with the energy proposal that the Bush administration has come out with. So you know that is something that we will be monitoring as well in terms of where some of these plans get cited in just the process for that as well.

All right to the next caller southeastern Illinois lie number four. Hello. Yeah I really don't have any one question just kind of a number of little questions. The plants that are being built now are those mostly fueled by natural gas. I mean I understand that's the type of plant they're building now and. And there are natural gas continues to be so short and so high. I think there's going to be a movement toward her absolute stripping the use of natural gas through residential and commercial heating. Yeah some of these plans in the legislation actually help benefit the natural gas industry as well but really kind of the impetus behind this legislation was how can we start building burning more Illinois Coal how can we you know kind of stimulate the economy in southern Illinois and take advantage of a resource that you know is in what many people would you know kind of Terman in abundance right now.

You know we're concerned with both coal and natural gas at some point the supply does run out and you know natural gas is probably quicker in there and we really feel that we need to be looking at more of a comprehensive plan that has you know wind that has solar that has efficiency more in the mix. Do you the you know whether the same companies will be involved in any new plants that will be built that in other words are companies that might close out some of those old plants that would be in there would being drowned. Because I think Mr. Ian said something about providing electricity mostly for Southern Illinois but I suspect that what with the money. Allotted for upgrading the year transmission lines are a lot of it isn't. The idea is to create the power in southern Maryland and and transmitted through transmission lines to two northern Illinois.

Yes that's correct I mean it really you know it's a package that I think is designed to benefit the whole state but really you know looking at more of the job creation and the uses of Illinois coal but you know certainly the transmission lines are intended to be able to have an impact in the northern part of the state as well. What do you spoke of when and so what are what's being done in the state now I mean are there many wind farms in the state. Well there is in Champaign. There is a wind farm that is under construction right now. There's also Maytag has been doing a lot in terms of efficiency of Galesburg Illinois. There are you know I think more of these you know kind of independent projects that are now being created in different places but I think it gives us the ability to say we can do some of that the city of Chicago has actually started putting solar panels on some of the museums and have a plan to do more of that in the

future and so I think we really need to be looking at some of the programs that have been successful and in places that are underway right now and looking at how we can expand some of those you know natural gas is going to be cleaner than using coal fired power plants. There isn't there certain amount of pollution involved in making the solar sails that provide solar electricity. To my understanding it is not you know anywhere near as great is what we're seeing in terms of the public health impacts you know from the coal fired power plants and also you know solar itself obviously is you know non polluting when you look at it in comparison to these other. Type of electricity that we're talking about are types of energy that we're talking about. Our organization the large you're working you're doing active work. I mean you know trying to raise money and encourage or the wind farms and things like that in other words are you working as hard toward what you believe in as you are geared towards you don't believe it.

Yes absolutely. You know we are working to help make sure I think you know one of the big things right now you know mention is is working to kind of close the loophole for these older coal fired power plants. But at the same time we are also you know promoting efficiency promoting renewables. There are a number of organizations that we work with that you know have really focused on some of those efforts as well and we think it's important for people to recognize that you know we're not saying this is the way that it needs to be in two years or in five years and this is the perfect make up of how all of this stuff plays together by recognizing the different impacts that each of the sources of energy create in looking at how we can come up with a plan that really makes sense for Illinois that uses the resources that we have that enables us to look at you know the differences between northern and southern Illinois and that really puts us on a path to a cleaner safer energy future.

We just have a couple of minutes left on like to try to get at least one more caller if the last caller will forgive me. We'll go to shit. Go here line one fellow thank you mention a lot of my code being shipped off for other utilities in the country. Are any of the utility companies owning the coal mines and other plants that are associated with the coal production. I'm sorry I could barely hear you. He asked the question was I guess the question was Do it do any of the utilities own the coal mines or are those essentially separate businesses. That's a good question. I mean I'm not sure you know who all is owning one of these days I think one of the things that we're seeing is that there's been a lot of changes in the industry. A lot of you know the industry in Illinois has kind of the corporate headquarters elsewhere or you know parent company and elsewhere as well. And then there's there's a lot of you know kind of mergers that are also taking place. So I think it's a good question to be looking at and to continue to to watch as well. We know that there's obviously you know a

lot of special interest as part of this industry is there are in kind of enter any energy sources and I think it's something to look at how how that's playing out in terms of that and decisions that are being made. The next question it was I understand. Common in Texas there are several dozen power plants waiting to come on line but they're just waiting for the right price before they do all they have. Have you heard the bathrooms. A large number of power plants in Texas. I haven't heard specifically about Texas I have heard you know in a number of places across the country you know. All of a timing issue and you know kind of looking at what what's happening with the market and fluctuation in just you know kind of energy needs in where decision makers in the various states areas as well and I think that that is something that you know we do need to be looking at in just a you know kind of reference you know California briefly I think you know that is one of the things that we saw there was that you know a number of these companies you know really had sued to avoid building new cleaner energy plants

and it's been you know millions of dollars lobbying for defending some of the new electricity laws that cause these problems in the first place. And so in you know has been said to withheld some of the energy it at times when they had it and so I think we really need to be looking at what is what are our needs in Illinois how are we going to be able to meet them and you know what is that makeup going to be for the future. We're going to have to leave it at that because we've come to the end of the time and we want to say Ms Rau thanks very much for talking with us. Diane Brown is executive director of the Public Interest Research Group of Illinois.