Focus 580; True Notebooks

In this part of focus 580 will be talking with the writer and musician Marc Saltzman. He was invited some years ago to visit a writing class at Central Juvenile Hall which is home to some of the most violent teenage offenders in Los Angeles and initially he wanted to say no. However he went anyway and was so surprised by what he found there that he decided to become a teacher himself and did spend a couple of years there teaching creative writing to some young men there 15 16 17 years old. He says that his students reminded him of how important writing is helping us to keep track of our lives as narrative journeys and he also says that watching them struggle to write even if they didn't feel like it reminded him of how important persistence is. He writes all about this in the book True notebooks It's published by Klopp is out now and in the bookstore if you'd like to take a look at it just a bit more about our guest. In addition to being an accomplished writer he is also an accomplished musician. He is a cellist. He attended Yale where he studied Chinese language and philosophy and that eventually

led him to travel to China where he spent two years teaching English at Hunan medical college he also studied martial arts there and his experiences were the inspiration for his first book iron and silk which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize in nonfiction He also wrote the screenplay for and starred in the film version of Iron and silk which was shot entirely on location in China. His other books include A Memoir lost in place growing up absurd in suburbia the laughing Sutra the soloist and the lying awake his cello playing also appears on the soundtrack of several films including an Academy Award winning documentary breathing lessons the life and work of Mark O'Brien. His good enough to have been invited by Yo-Yo Ma and Emanuel Ax to join them as a guest cellist for a concert that they gave at Alice Tully Hall in New York Valentine's Day. So he's interested a lot of different things. We're pleased that he could spend some time talking with us this morning. And as we talk of course questions

are welcome. We just ask people to be brief and we ask that so we can keep the program moving and getting as many different people as possible. But of course anybody's listening is welcome to call in here in Champaign Urbana 3 3 3 9 4 5 5. Toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5. Mr. Saltzman Hello. Good morning. Thanks for talking with us. Oh thank you. I gathered that as I understand this this really started because you got involved in the project because you were working on a novel and it wasn't going to really well you have some difficulty. Part of it involved a character that you're working on that you were having a hard time with that happen to be someone who was a young offender and someone apparently suggested to you Well you know I know a place that you can go and you can actually meet some and maybe that would help you. That's right I have this friend of mine is a reporter for The L.A. Times and I asked him if he could recommend any good books about juvenile delinquents that I could read for research.

And he said well I can't think of any offhand but I do I teach a group of boys at juvenile hall all of whom were gang involved in charge of very serious crimes. They could teach you more than any book and I remember thinking Are you sure you can't recommend a good book. I just couldn't think of anything more depressing than the thought of visiting one of these facilities and then being in a room with a group of teenage Suggs. I had been the smallest most physically frail boy of my class from kindergarten all the way through finishing high school and I was forever the victim but you know physically competent bullies and the idea of as an adult putting myself back in a situation where they could humiliate me really didn't appeal. But I couldn't think of a way to say no to this. This invitation without seeming insensitive and not caring and so you know to save face I said yes and went down to this place dreading it and in fact as we went into this place I was so nervous that I thought I'd remembered reading somewhere that violent criminals don't like it. If you look them in the eye they take it as a

challenge. I remember now that that article. It was actually about dogs. But at the time I thought it was about violent criminals. So I went in there determined not to look them in the eye I didn't want to start anything you know any trouble. So I decided I would look at their hands and as we sat in this little room one by one the boys walked in and each of them was holding a sheeted notebook paper on which he'd written a poem or essay and they were going to read it aloud to me. They wanted to see what I would think of it. And I looked at their hands and their hands were shaking so hard from fear. They looked like cartoon characters I'd never seen anything like it and that that helped me get over my own anxiety because seeing that they were so nervous around me reminded me that regardless of the other things they've done they were still children. They were very insecure about what an adult would think. And then I listened to the breed and what they wrote just took me entirely by surprise. It does a little bit more about these young men and what it some of the kind of things that they did tend to result in their being there.

Well in that class I visited all of the I believe it was five boys in that writing class. They were all charged with murder. And then when I went on to teach my own class I would say about 80 to 90 percent of the kids that went through my class in the four years I taught there were charged with either murder or attempted murder. The unit where I taught and where they held the high risk offenders. The kids who are charged with the most serious crimes and who are considered the most incorrigible and who are being tried as adults. These are that the ones that are are considered unfit to be tried as juveniles because of the seriousness of their crimes and so they're facing adult convictions and then being sent to adult prison to serve their sentences. I don't know. They want to get to something quite so serious right up front but I guess what this does is reading a story like this I think it invites you to think about how we think about what we do with people who commit crime. And the fact that it's at least it seems to me that as far as adult criminals are concerned we pretty much given up on the idea of rehabilitation. The

only place we still hold on to that and it seems that our grip is tenuous is when we're talking about children but that we still need you know. But then when you talk about children who have committed quote unquote adult crimes we just don't seem to know what to do with them. We seem to like to hold on to this idea that with somebody that young there is the possibility that their life can change. And yet it seems more and more we we that idea is starting to slip away from us too. It's true. I think it's not it's not necessarily because we are callous people in society we don't care about. KID I think part of it just comes from a combination of fear and frustration. In the past when there were more or more efforts at rehabilitation of serious juvenile offenders the results of those rehabilitation programs were often disappointing. And I think that really frustrated people. If you set up programs education programs for kids then when they're released within a year they get arrested again it makes you wonder about the value of those

education programs and I think at this point now we've become so so frustrated that we have in a sense given up. Particularly with these kids that are accused of either chronic criminal activity or serious crimes. I think the feeling now is hey we tried in the past nothing worked so we just got to keep them separated from society so they can't victimize anyone again and that's a it's a legitimate concern and at this point since we have not figured out the cure for a crime that there are many kids who the both the best we can do at this moment is to just make sure they can't commit more crimes. But I don't think that means we should give up on the idea that we may be close to figuring out better ways to deal with kids like this I. That our commitment to try and offer something more to kids like this is a good one and I think that I'm personally hopeful. I think that 100 years from now we'll look back on our current lack of success with dealing with criminal kids the way we

look back a hundred years ago how we dealt with mental illness 100 years ago we knew so little about it. We often lump them all together and we were so afraid of what this did to people's behavior. All we could think to do was just keep them somehow separate keep them from from frightening or harming anyone else now because we know so much more we can have a much more humane and lightened approach to it. I do think that will happen with our understanding of why kids like this do the things they do. But. For us to get to that point we have to believe that kids like this are worth saving. That's the tricky part and we have to in some sense be convinced that they are part of our community and that they are there is enough humanity intact in them to be worth making the effort. And that was what my experience told me I went into this just really not caring about juvenile criminals. They just seemed such a repulsive bunch. I really didn't want to think about them. But after working with them getting to know them I now feel that my my desire to see kids like this get

to see us find ways to reintegrate kids like this rather than lock them away for life. I think it's a worthwhile goal. There are I think various places around the country different kinds of programs that are designed to put writers together with various groups of at risk kids. And they happen in schools in another kind of settings and this is you know if you talk about sort of extreme population here it would be one with the kind of kids that you're talking about you had a chance to work with how did this program the one there at Central juvenile hall How did that get started. Well it started as so many of these interesting grassroots programs begin with a couple of of of people who had this idea that it would work it was at that time there were two there was a nun a Catholic nun who'd been chaplain at juvenile hall for many years. Sister Janet Harris who had. This feeling that one of the problems these kids face is that most of them from the time they were tiny children really

never had much of a voice in within their family within the school or community. But they were mostly in some sense abandoned. And and because they they grew up with this very very dim the sense of self-worth that they act out negatively because it's the only way they can get attention. The only way they believe they can matter is if they get attention by being destructive because whenever they would try to do something constructive it tended to be ignored and so Sister Jennet felt that if you could bring writers together with these kids and convince them that in this kind of class they would not be judged by how well they spelled or whether they use punctuation correctly. And most of them since they don't do that well they're already sort of set for failure. But instead that they would be judged entirely on simply their willingness to tell a story honestly to to describe experiences from their own life in a way that other people could understand them. She felt that it would be worthwhile and at the same time a writer Karen hunt.

Looking for an opportunity to working with high school kids before but she felt she felt it would be interesting to try this with at risk kids and the two of them met and decided to start this little writing program at Central and started just with Karen. And then there was my friend doing that reporter from The L.A. Times and then I was third and now it's grown it's just it's been seven or eight years now and that program is all over Los Angeles now not just in the juvenile detention facilities but even that you know afterschool at risk programs that sometimes the judge will offer that as an alternative to being locked up if a kid is willing to participate in programs like this. So it's really spread from there. Our guest in this part of focus 580 Marc Saltzman and we're talking about what you can find in his most recent book True notebooks which is an account of some of his experience teaching creative writing class at Central juvenile hall in Los Angeles where some of the most violent teenage offenders are housed. The book is published by cops. It's out now if you'd like. Take a look at it of course. Questions comments are welcome anybody wants to

participate in a conversation can do that 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 and toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. It seems we talk a little bit about how initially the when the suggestion was made to you that you could stop by this place and and kind of see what these young men were like and maybe that would help you in this book that you're working on the knish really what you were you were looking for reasons to say no. He says that you could say no and that then once you kind of got into it you were there was still this interesting using to be pulled in two ways in this sort of odd way on the one hand thinking that they would they would look at you and say well what is this. What is this guy got to say to me. Because your experience with it was so foreign from theirs. On the other hand it seemed like maybe in part you were actually a little worried that that some of them might become too might become too bonded to you and might actually might actually say well this is the you know I am looking for some some sort of decent male presence in my life and maybe this guy would

be a pretty good candidate. Well certainly I became aware right away how hungry these kids are for an adult male mentor figure these are all boys. So it would make sense that that would be what they want I did not teach the girls that care and work with them. So I can't speak for her experience but for me it would. Obviously every single one of these boys was simply starved for attention for personal attention from an older male that they could in some sense bond to and that older male would give them challenges that they could then meet so that they could prove themselves. I think the one thing that is the one thing that really surprises me is how quickly they were willing to accept my values as the values they should struggle to achieve. I figured that a person like me going there these kids would take one look at me and say he has no street credibility he's not like you like us he doesn't understand anything I figured they would ignore me you know give me the tough guy treatment. And that was absolutely not true. Within two sessions

of joining a class each of those kids wanted so badly for me to for reassurance and approval for me that they were willing to say OK what do you want me to do. You want me to be a writer I'll be a writer. And so it's true that I was concerned then that well what if what if the kids see me as a father figure and and expect more from me than I'm able to give them. Well that the truth is that it never became a problem. I never. Solve that problem and there was nothing I did to prevent it. What simply happened in the Janet I think described it best. He said that Mark. These kids all of them are so used to adults disappearing from their lives. Adults letting them down. Adults not carrying through with promises that they have actually very low expectations from adults. And so the fact that you come twice a week and you keep coming that is surprising to them. And that's that's enough. You know you don't worry that these kids are going to want more from you than you can offer because

they're probably it's going to take them a whole year just to get used to the idea that you're not going to disappear and that really proved true. And then all the all the years that I did the class I never had one of the kids asked me to do something or give him something that was inappropriate and I'm in touch with him still now that they're in adult prison it's been every it's been for five years since they were all been sent on to adult prison I still am in touch with them in it and it still hasn't become a problem. So there is a sort of self regulating thing going on there if it may help that they're locked up in a sense if they were in an afterschool program then that could be more of a concern. Maybe maybe they would want to visit me at my home. Things like that but having them locked up that it really never became a problem for me. We have a caller to talk with let's do that on our line one in champagne. Hello. Hi how you doing. Good. First of all are the two different things like that say one is a question but the first is my compliments to you for doing this. Obviously

all of our politicians always and this is neither a Republican or Democratic thing I've always said that our children are our future. The idea when you were discussing earlier why America mainstream is sort of shunning this group of children it is dangerous to them. It's certainly realistic I think it's obvious that we're doing that why we're doing it. I'm not sure I think you're if your reason is as good as any. But when you consider the value that each individual human being has and the investment that's made in that I'm an intrinsic investment. It seems sort of obvious that we have to do these kinds of things rehabilitation must be a focus. I mean if not for the hardened criminal they'd 60 for 20 for children. The number to then is there anything at all that people in this area Champaign-Urbana can do. You may have already mentioned it and I didn't hear it. Along these same lines. I am not an author per se I write poetry. I'm electrical engineer. I do lots of stuff. But this

seems to me something that would be worthwhile becoming involved I'm sure. Well that's true. Wonderful to hear as I live in Los Angeles I'm not familiar with what sort of facilities you have in that area but what I would say is that one thing we learned all of us that were involved in this program is that regardless of that the volunteers like me who did this. Some of us were published authors some of us work some of us were people who are only writing experience was the letters we write home or you know the notes we write on our tax forms and that almost didn't seem important to the kids at least at this level. We're not so much in need of specific writing advice or writing expertise. They were simply in need of an adult who is willing to pay attention to what they did who was actually interested in hearing what they had to say and I think what made this class so successful is that I was able honestly to go there not out of a sense of obligation or you know dreading it but thinking it was a good thing to do but I actually enjoyed it. It was the high

point of my week. And the kids sense that. And the reason that I enjoyed it so much is because I would go into the classroom and I would say OK today right about the coldest you ever felt I would just come up with topics like that that would give an opportune. Easy to write about their own lives and what would come back from these simple assignments like one kid wrote in response to that question about the time when his father who'd been in prison for seven years. The the kid didn't know him at all. Finally the father comes home after seven years and the boy has grown up fantasizing what it will be like to see his father he wanted to see his father so bad and his father appears at the door and says Son I missed you. And instead of feeling warmth and love he felt as if the father had driven an icepick into his heart. All that you know the anger the resentment of being left alone and of course its own guilt feeling that he somehow as a child must have had something to do is that it all came to the surface and that was the coldest he ever felt at this moment that he thought would be the warmest and that

essay. It was only a paragraph long. What's so moving and to see all the other kids say that happened to me. I know just what you're talking about. That's a writer's dream to be sitting around with people and have them share things like that that we all immediately have an emotional connection to so I think the great the one thing you can bring to a to a program like this or to any activity like this is simply find. Something that you can honestly enjoy doing with the kids. And if you could do that they sense it. And that's what makes it worthwhile for them. They feel that important they have something to offer. Well thank you very much very much and once again thank you for continuing to do what you do your own well thanks for the call. Other people who are listening is certainly if you want to call in question have a comment. I want to talk with our guest Marc Saltzman that's certainly great 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 2 2 2 9 4 5 5. I think when you read the book and you read the excerpts from the student's writing that's there you're really struck by these

kinds of flashes of real insight that they seem to have about themselves and I found myself thinking boy if you were a therapist you you'd feel lucky if you have it you know in your career you have very many breakthrough moments like that when someone or someone says that so that that also that it makes me think about well first of all that that kind of insight maybe doesn't quite fit in the stereotypical vision we would have of a young offender like that. But it also makes me reflect on the kind of position that that you were in being the teacher and whether you either felt or sort of got pushed into this position of playing that kind of role. Well in a way that's the beauty of it being a writing class because I I'm not a trained therapist and I really wouldn't know what. Absolute best way to deal with. You know if a kid tells you a story like that what is the best way to deal with it. I don't really know but what I could do is I could listen with the other kids when he read this thing aloud and at the end I think I could say

man. I remember asking him to write after he'd read it. I said that you know that that is powerful writing I said. Can you tell me Was there ever a moment where you then did get to feel love for your father did it. Did you finally get over that and then he talked you said yeah you know and within a few days you know that that that sort of din that we had our good times are good times it's been rocky but it's been up and down. So what what we would do is we would talk about the peace both as a piece of writing but then also just we would just let the conversation flowed naturally when you hear something like that what do you want to know beyond that and so there was no I didn't really follow any strict rules about it. I just kind of let the kids determine what they wanted. Let's talk about and how they did and and I just felt grateful to be there because you know there are moments where you're just with other people and they're talking about experiences that meant so much to them. And I don't know why even if it's a tragic experience there is something affirming about the value of

life and of being human to hearing other people express deep human experiences. And I know I say if it meant that I didn't have to feign an interest and in being there. I speak you know the fellow who called was asking asking about you know how qualified you have to be and my answer is that if you can find something you enjoy doing and you can do it with some of these kids that's the best way there was even if there was a Buddhist monk who came to juvenile hall to teach harmonica to the harmonica was his hobby. And you know the kids. That guy it sounds absurd and he you know worth the roads and everything but connected with the kids deeply as I did because he enjoyed what he did and they had a good time and I think he served just as vital a function as a someone like me somebody that I think is interesting is that the idea that you wouldn't want to dismiss the fact that that these young men were violent had committed violent crimes and I'm sure that there's a there is tension and stress

and violence and in the in the atmosphere of the place. And yet at the same time it seems that for a lot of them being in prison was was in some odd way a better environment maybe a safer environment than being on the street because they there weren't the there weren't the pressures to prove themselves quite that they found out on the street and it could be in a way a little bit more relaxed kind of atmosphere I don't know if I I'm quite expressing that well enough but I did yeah I get that kind of feeling. Oh your abs. Silly right. Several of the kids in fact most of them at one time or another would say although none of them like being locked up I don't think any person could ever enjoy being incarcerated because you you essentially you lose all control over your old life. Own life you're in an utterly humble position in a sense and I think any human being would would you know what I would find that painful. But I have almost every one of those kids

found some way to say one of two things either if I had not been locked up I would have been dead within a month. Because there you know the cycle of violence had gotten so out of control that they probably would be dead and they would have no chance to make anything with their life they wouldn't have a life. And then the other thing that many of them said is they felt that being incarcerated had made them mature because grow in ways that they they simply couldn't on the street because well for one thing they're locked up with people of other races opposite gang affiliations. These are people who on the street they considered enemies. They were completely. And they dehumanised each other in that way. And then to be thrust in the same difficult situation naturally and being you know adolescence makes it all the stronger within a few weeks if their unit let's say that the Kal unit is involved in a tug of war competition or track and field competition with and unit the kids would entail you know that might on the street. Shooting at each other but as soon as they realized they were a team

they have to be. And then you know that suddenly they're cheering for each other. And I think for many of those kids it did give them a little bit of insight into the meaninglessness of these tribes these gangs that they've created. And and you know not all but. But I think some of them it gave them. It doesn't mean that then you could then release them after that tug of war back to the street and they would never get involved in the gang. That's a separate problem I think that one if you take kids like this and you then release them simply back to the same environment that this is that they knew from before where there was not they were not under strict supervision where there just seemed to be nothing else to do tend to hang out with the homeboys. You're going to see a very high rate of of recidivism of going right back to it even if they've had moments of insight. But the moments of insight are there. And if they can be supportive in a strong way over years and years. I think there is hope for saving kids like that. Let me introduce Again our guest will. Past the midpoint of this our focus We're talking with Marc

Saltzman He's the author of a number of books iron and silk one that's an account of his two years in China a memoir titled Lost in place and the novels the laughing Sutra the soloist and lying awake and his most recent book True notebooks which is published by can often it's an account of his experiences spending a couple of years teaching a creative writing class at Central juvenile hall Hall which is home to the most violent teenage offenders in Los Angeles. Questions are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. Since these are the young men there are pretty much waiting to go onto adult prison and have to know that they're looking at being in jail for a long time or at least I would think to somebody of that age. You know if you said 10 years or 20 years or more than that you would indeed seem like a long time. You wonder how it is they manage to maintain any kind of positive attitude any kind of hopefulness knowing that they're going to be there for for a long

time. Well I know other many surprises for me was discovering through these kids how resilient and Dapto both human beings are. These kids knew most of them that they were facing 25 year to life sentences that they. We talk about it and they would say that they were worried but they were upset about it. But then in you know in a minute you could change a subject you could be talking about cars you could be talking about close it and. And they would be able to leave their their concern their fear their anticipation aside for a moment you know not not all the time but but it could happen they could still have cheerful moments in our of our writing class. There were so many delightful moments people telling touching or funny stories from their family life and asking me about my life. Curious what is it like to be married. You know do you. Are you worried that your wife might fall in love with another man you know all these simple life type questions they had curiosity

about life outside themselves. I remember talking with one of the guards in the unit about this and he said you know Mark I've got this theory that as awful as it is that kids this young are facing these terrible sentences. One thing that's a bit of a mercy is that none of these kids have paid a mortgage payment yet. And I said What do you mean he said Mark. I didn't really grow up and didn't really understand the notion of the future until I started paying a mortgage. And so for a lot of these kids they since they've been you know in and out of incarceration facilities some of them since the age of 12. A lot of them don't yet know what what twenty five years means they don't really know yet what what they are missing. And it will sink in later. But for the time being it protects them a little bit from the true brunt of the anguish that most of us adults would feel if we found ourselves in that situation. Is there any I don't know if you you have a copy of the book there with you. But I'm

I'm just wondering because I I would like to give people who are listening and a little feeling for some of the writing the students I wonder is there something you might like to read. Sure sure. Just give me a moment I think I'd say we should have we should have tipped you before. You know what before we started the show said that you would have that at hand I guess. That's fine. No just give me a moment as I walk across. I'm now a stay at home dad by the way one of the experiences one of the effects of this experience on me was that it made me want to have children of my own so I now have a two and a half year old daughter and I stay at home with her every day and so we've got her set up with Plato at the moment but I got my book I can cross the room. Let's get you know it's interesting because I guess that was one of the things that I read in one of the things that I read that indeed that what the experience had done for you was that it made you feel like you wanted to have children. So I guess that's that's that's optimistic I guess you would say well it has to be that says there's a good part of what came out of the experience. It was wonderful. It's I was reluctant I was afraid to have kids because I

didn't know. I just wondered if I would be a good father if I if I would be able to to split my attention between writing which I obviously love and then be able to you know play Chutes and Ladders and read. Goodnight Moon a thousand times over and over again and I I just couldn't see myself in the role naturally and that that scared me. But in meeting these kids who are really the worst case scenario and people would say Oh Mark now you're never going to want to have kids actually meeting these kids and finding that I could care about them I could enjoy their their company I could care about their little victories and hope for the for them to to experience maturity and all that stuff it made me realize if I have my own kids I'm really going to enjoy this. And so far that's been true. I'm grateful it's a debt I can never repay in a way and it just shows you sometimes good things can come out of even the darkest places. Anyway I found a little something example for you here this is from a boy named Francisco who is. Just

terribly conflicted You could see he wanted so badly could change his life he was taking conformation classes he was getting deeply interested in religion but he was also often impulsive kid it was very hard for him to control his emotions and it was that meant that he was constantly getting into trouble. If a kid would challenge him you know he would see you in a half a second he'd be in a fist fight and then he'd regret it. To see him anguishing over over the stupidity of screwing up again I was just so painful to watch well anyway one day he sat down in class and he wrote something called Collision. And it goes like this. The angel is coming at full speed in one direction while the devil comes in the other. The devil with this pitchfork running at full speed aiming to hit the angel in the chest. All of the sudden stops with the force of the angel's power. The devil tells the angel that he's going to kill him and that he's going to go to hell but the angel responds. I'm with God and the only place Rome going to is is paradise. The devil then

strikes him sending him to eternal fire. The angel on his knees weak all of a sudden gets his energy back and strikes the devil with his wings and sends him to heaven. There they are throwing blows wrestling doing what they can to win. All the sudden they're running full speed toward each other when they collide and become one. That one is me. So those like you were saying before I think that a therapist would would cherish you. A moment of insight like that and that essay just described him so perfectly because in his moments when he was contrite and remorseful it was sincere. It wasn't feigned but he couldn't hold on to it for very long. The angry part of him the frustrated part the part that just felt despair and hopelessness was also valid was also real and he could simply eliminate one that he was stuck at this point where they were in conflict with each other but he couldn't figure out how to integrate them. I remember one day I was crossing the yard and one of the guards said Well Mark I understand

you're having a really positive experience with the kids and we're all glad about that but you've got to remember you see them at their best. Whereas we see them at their worst. And so you know don't ever forget that. And there's a very good point. It is true you don't want to fall into the error of thinking that because you see the kids in the in a certain moment where they rise to the occasion they behave well it doesn't mean you should then just send them home. No they're OK they won't kill again. But at the same time I feel that some people would say that because the kids do behave badly in some circumstances that means that what they showed in my class might somehow be an act. You know they're just trying to impress you. But that's not the real kids. The real kids what you see on the street. And my feeling is if both sides are real Neither is it is particularly an act. They're both legitimate. I think the interesting question is in the class that I ran for example I never had to play the role of an authority figure. I never had to discipline a kid I never had to ask a kid to leave the quest and I never had

a fight break out in my class which is remarkable for juvenile hall because that's these are places where there are several fright fights a day breaking out but in that class the kids regulated their own behavior. They somehow held it together. They kept their tempers in check. They behaved like high school students. And so I think the interesting question is what is it about those circumstances. What is it about that class-A that made them rise to the occasion. And can we if we can figure out what those circumstances were can we spread them to other aspects of their lives. Can we bring those circumstances to other parts of their lives so that they gradually do gain a sense of the value of of working within the rules of society. We have someone else to talk with listening here in Champaign. That line 1 below. Were any of the kids that you worked with interested in your writing.

Oh Were any of them interest in my writing. They all expressed an interest in it. I would bring in copies of my books for them to read and they would get so excited I mean the first thing what they want to see is my name on it. There are just so. That just seemed kind of magical to them. And then the see the author photo to the idea that someone was actually the author of a book seemed very very exciting. One of the problems it with getting the opportunity to read the book is that the kids aren't allowed to have books in their cells they're not allowed to have pencils or paper because all of these things theoretically can be used as weapons. So they could only read the book during our class a few minutes at a time. And what would happen is because these kids a lot of them have very short attention spans. They would get an third of the way through the book and they would say how much they loved it and then I'd you know slow down so I can. Say that any of them actually finished any of my book and maybe that says more about my book than about the kids. But they certainly had interest in them.

There was it's been years since I wrote our own and so on but I recall a story that you recounted in there if you're either traveling on a bus or a train and there were two men who seemed to have some designs on you in one way or another in one of them. I want to know about your mother and the other person the other fellow. The cool question because you're obviously so far from your mother do. I'm wondering if they read that story. Yes actually one of the kids read that and enjoyed it so much he asked me to read it aloud to the rest of the class and then it became a tradition about every three months or so when there would be some new kids in the class. They'd always ask me to read that story I was on a train in China to see did you need to be in this crowded train across from two men young men who had just been released from prison for stabbing someone in a poker fight and they were getting drunk they were on their way home and the drunker of the two was saying oh well we get to the train station My brother is going to be waiting for me.

My mother loves me she used to come visit me every month. Oh my mother this is not the. Other guy all asked him with his hand across the chest and said Shut up and the first guy says Weiss is because this guy here his mother is on the other side of the world he can't see her at all and he doesn't need to know about your mother. And it was just one of those little tender moments from this tough tough guy that took me by surprise and the kids at juvenile hall loved this story one reason being that motherhood is absolutely sacred in a place like juvenile hall. I suspect it's true in adult prison as well. But I remember one day I was invited to play my cello at juvenile hall in the chapel. So I did and I was really worried it would not go over well because we had several hundred of these boy prisoners to go marched in. And right before my performance they'd somehow convinced a hip hop group with amplifiers and a girl with a you know bare belly just before me. And of course the boys the hip hop band they were so excited they were stomping their

feet and clapping and then that exactly you know 2:00 p.m. That band gets whisked away and I come with my cello you could see these kids not happy about the replacement. So I come out and I say well you know I don't feel you have to understand the music just let it wash over you daydream and I said this first piece I'm going to play is called the swan by Camille sense. And whenever I play it it makes me. My mother I said that innocently it's true. I do think of my mother when I play it. I started playing the piece and about halfway through I heard this rustling sound and I thought oh you know it's starting now they're they're bored they're just going to it's going to be a riot you know and I I look above the music and what I see is that by half the boys have tears just streaming down their face and they're not making any attempt to hide it. There's no sense of shame about it. And when I finished the piece they gave me the Ovation of a lifetime. I've never gotten such a response. So I I didn't play a piece of Bach. And the response is not nearly as wild you know as polite applause but one kid the back yells play the piece about mothers again. And it turns out that's all they wanted

me to do during my my performance time is just play that song over and over so that they could think of their mothers. It's really probably because for most of these kids the mother may be the the last person on earth who still has some unconditional love left for them. You know they've alienated or frightened or terrorized so many people that there's nobody left except the mother and you really see that on visiting day at juvenile hall where you'll see really hundreds of mothers often with babies on one arm and shopping bag on the other waiting in line for their moment to visit their their kids. And and you just see fewer of them. Very few men and it's just one of the sad realities. For so for various reasons mothers are sacred around juvenile hall if you want to get kids to write ask them to write about their bombs that they want to see evidence of your kungfu policy. Yeah well then you know they would hear that I had trained for many years and done it in China and all but the question always was Have you ever been in a fight and I would always say no and they'd say Weren't you ever attacked and I would tell them

Well actually I was mugged once and they go OK so what happened I would tell him that I was so terrified during the experience I was so shocked that I thought of. The hallucinated that this was a positive experience I not only gave the guy my wallet but when he asked if I had anything else I remembered I had a watch in my pocket. I said oh yeah I've got this too I cheerfully gave it to him. And after he went away all the sudden my knees started to shake and I thought kungfu. So I would tell him that at first they hated hearing this because you know they want their male mentors to be heroic. They want to be tough and they would hear me admit that I don't have a tough bone in my body and they would just go oh no no no don't say it isn't so. But in time I could see that they and they kind of enjoyed it. I think to them. It was just utter shock that a bad could it meant to that kind of weakness and not be embarrassed by it. I mean the thing is they could tell that I'm not troubled by that I think that the you know as far as I'm concerned I'm still alive. So that encounter with the robber went fine. I just think they thought that kind of fascinating.

Well thank you very much. There are a couple we have about 10 minutes left and our guest is Marc Saltzman he is accomplished writer and musician he's a cellist also has spent a lot of time studying martial arts and his first book iron and silk was an account of the years he spent in China studying martial arts and also initially he went there to teach English. He is also the author of two of the novels the laughing Sutra the soloist and lying awake and is the author of this new book that we've been talking about it's titled True notebooks and it's published by come off and it is account of his experiences teaching creative writing at the central juvenile hall in Los Angeles a place where some of the most violent teen offenders are housed. Questions Comments welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5. I'm sure that that must have been the staff people there were supportive of this

idea of having this writing class but I'm really struck by the this comment that was made to you by the guy I guess must have been the the chief official the person in charge of the place who had some concerns. Burns about the fact that your class made the students feel special and he said they come out of your classes feeling like something special which makes it hard for them to leave your program and have to go back to our program meaning you know back in the jail and he said to remind them of where they are and who's in charge. Yeah we were having this meeting with the superintendent. We were requesting that he allow us the several writing classes to all be together in one big gymnasium for a day that all the kids could read aloud. And it was a it was a risky thing to do and you know he was hesitant at first but in the end he did think it would be worth trying. And at the end though he said I have a comment about your class I'd like to bake in so doing and I were there and we said What is it you because well

your classes make the kids feel special. Now we both know that was a compliment. You know we're smiling and he said Now you think that's a compliment but it's not. It's a criticism because when the kids come out of your class there they come out with this glow feeling like you know they count they matter. And then it's harder for them to go back to the sort of military style program we have where the idea is you as an individual are not important don't get you know you you are part of a team and don't ever forget it. And that's just in the heritage contradiction. I do think that these kids desperately need structure and so there is there is a lot to be said for a highly structured environment like the ones that you find in you know in the juvenile hall or are in prison that it provides stability and provides as you mentioned before it's a it's a safer environment less chaotic than the one they're used to. But the downside to it and the kids write very eloquently about this is that it can take people who already feel

that they're kind of worthless and make them feel even more worthless. And that can have a negative. That can be a defeating thing. So when you have something like a writing class where the kids then begin to develop a sense of pride what they do and then have to go right back to the program where they have to behave as if they get individuality doesn't matter. It is sort of an inherent problem and that there isn't any solution to it. But I would say that I think that for the kids it's better to have a moment where they feel they're not being judged and they feel that they can they can achieve something in the present as opposed to just ever being evaluated by what they did in the past. I think everybody needs that. So even though it may create some little difficulties for them in the prison environment I think those difficulties might be worth sustaining.

Yeah I guess I find myself coming back to you know maybe what is the central problem or the central challenge in being in something like this that I imagine is trying to see and understand these young men in their totality. We think about going back to the comment where someone said to you maybe it was a guard he said you know you see these these guys when they're at their best while we see them while they're at their worst they are there for serious crimes some of them are there for having committed murder. I think about you know particular one young man that I think you you came to really like and who although who had had shot some people you know. I think if I remember the story right. Pretty much basically only because they mouthed off to him. And you know and your difficulty in trying to put together the part of this kid that you came to know that you really liked and saw some good in with the idea that he did this incredibly stupid cruel thoughtless idiotic in a whatever kind of weird you want to put to it shameful thing and trying to put those two to trying to get in your head those two aspects of

this one person together. That's right. It is difficult. I think that the the judge in that boy Kevin Kevin Jackson the judge at his trial was quite eloquent during the sentencing hearing he said you know this really is a tragedy. This boy had lost both his parents to a car crash when he was 9 years old and from that point on was shuttled back and forth between different family members who were really not prepared to be parents the foster homes that did it get rich just very sad and so in a way it's not. I think that a kid like that would would end up having trouble at school he had older brothers who were in gangs. I mean it was a car to heart. Hard to imagine how a kid like that could survive it all. Anyway he's done this terrible thing and the judge said what's what's tragic about this is that all of the reports from all of the facilities where he's been held say that this is one of the nicest most respectful kids they've ever seen. I mean the letters that

came from the probation officers on this kids were so moving. And yet when he when he was released on the street he hung around with the same group of gang members and was capable of up just these really stupid and thoughtless. His actions were the actions of someone who don't really understand that other people matter that they are really real human beings that they're not just almost characters in a video game. And he said it's almost like a Jekyll and Hyde thing. It's almost as if there are two people here that we're talking about. And we go ahead I'm I'm I'm so sorry I was interrupting you there when you're about to say a key thing I mean. I mean the point we're really going to have to stop and her and I'm really sorry I wish we can continue but we just used the time and I would certainly recommend to people who have been listening to us to to look at the book True notebooks published by Konami by our guest Marc Saltzman You might also look at some of his others particularly iron and silk. And I just want to say Mark thanks very much for spending some time and talking with us.

Oh you're welcome thanks for having me.