Focus 580; In the Land of Temple Caves: From St. Emilion to Pariss St. Sulpice

Well this is Focus five eight hour morning talk show and we're glad to have you listening. We're also pleased this morning in this part of the show to be talking with Frederick Turner. He is the author of a number of books of nonfiction one novel. A lot of literary journalism he's written about different sorts of things. His novel is set here in the United States during the jazz age it's titled One thousand twenty nine novel of The Jazz Age. He's also written about baseball. He's written a lot about the American West. The book that we'll be talking about this morning is maybe a little bit difficult to explain just in a few words. The title of the book is in the land of Temple caves. And as we will explain. It began with his response and his thinking about the meaning of the terrorist attacks on September 11th and that led him thinking to and we can explain how this how. But it led him to think about art and about why it is that human beings create art and what that says about us and in an effort to think about that and make some discoveries he decided to go back to the very earliest examples of art that we

have. And these are cave paintings that date all the way back to the ice age. And your projects are you've probably seen photographs of these drawings and he uses that to kind of think about art and the human spirit and make draws a line that goes from that point way way back in the past all the way to to the place where we are right now. His book is in the land of Temple caves and it is published by counterpoint which is a member of the Perseus Books Group it's out there in bookstores now. And as we talk of course questions are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4. 5:5 those numbers Mr. TURNER. Well thanks for talking with us. My pleasure. We certainly appreciate it. To begin I guess a I want to go back to the point where you really started thinking about this and it was indeed as a response to the September 11th of 2001. That's right.

I think that certainly at the time that happened so many people that were all asking the same question they were asking why did this happen what would does this mean. And for a lot of people particularly people who follow international politics they went right to the right to the political issues with what you seem to be doing is jumping up another level and asking that same question that why question but but asking in an ally enlarging to frame a little bit. That's right David. Of course everybody was shocked as as we were because I mean it was it was it was literally on that particular day out of the blue that particular day September 11 was a spectacular fall day and my wife and I and our son and his girlfriend were in Boston waiting for a flight to Paris. So there was a an additional kind of

immediacy about about the event for us. But that's kind of adventitious in the sense that you know we just happen to be there. But the longer I thought about this thing the more it became evident to me that there was something else involved. One began of course thinking about the specific roots of this particular terrorism al-Qaeda and bin Laden and so on and the Saudi connection whatever that may be and then of course that the Gordian knot that nobody seems to want to touch let alone on ties and that's the Israeli-Palestinian business which whatever one wants to say about it. However you come down on it that obviously has to get solved before the Middle East will be anything less than the powderkeg it is and nobody seems to be working on that very hard.

But the longer I thought about it once I got back to my home here in New Mexico. The more it became clear to me that there was something that over our DGD if you will the situation the immediate situation of 9/11 the Middle East. Israeli-Palestinian thing. And what it was it seems to me was that this was another instance of the immortal conflict between the creative impulse and the destructive impulse. The life force is what is the term I use in the book The Life Force vs. the destructive impulse. And every human being has a certain measure of both of those things within his or her breast. And that particular day 9/11 the destructive impulse certainly had the upper hand and things were way out of balance.

And yet when one looks at the long history of humankind you begin to realize that the life force which to me is most powerfully poignantly beautifully brilliantly expressed in acts of creativity that has as much if more to say to us about our capacities and our capabilities our essential irrefragable human nature. And thinking about. These things it became clear to me that art broadly considered the capital of the seven lively arts. However you want to put it that art was the clearest expression of the life force working through human hands and hearts. So that's a large frame of the book that sent me to France. Why did you decide to end your exploration of

the art and What It Says About Us. Why did you decide to go all the way back to what as far as we know it's the early early early East examples of art that we have. For the simple reason that that art and fully modern humans seem to be coeval that is to say when fully modern humans we sometimes call Cro-Magnons simply because that might happen to be that the place in France where an eight hundred seventy eight. Some. The skeletons and skulls were accidentally on earth by rebel railroad workers at that point. Human beings were already creating art of great power and sophistication. And though the farther back we go the art goes back there with us. In fact the Lascaux cave which I

believe was discovered in France in 1940 which was about at the lowest point of human fortune in a long long time. That being the nadir of World War 2 that cave was discovered in 1940 and the engravings in the paintings in Lascaux are dated something like plus or minus sixteen thousand years old. But then in the in the valley of the somewhat east and south of the Lascaux cave. It was another extraordinary find in 1994 and that not only extended the geographical range to so to say of our age. But it is to the fore. Nationally extended the chronological age of it because the OVAs did these things and what's now called Chauvet Cave the oldest of the

engravings and paintings there are twice the age of those schools so that puts them at 32000 plus or minus. Now if you and these paintings by the way are of equal if not greater power and sophistication than those of Glasgow. Now if you have if you assume it has as you have to do that in order to get to that level of expertise that level of artistic sophistication there has to be a long sort of say cultural apprenticeship for humans to get to that stage. Then you go way back beyond that and you're almost there at the dawn of a fully modern human beings. And I may say that turned this is to step into a debate I probably don't need to but you know I feel like it. I think that probably eventually it will be determined that our predecessors did. Hundred couples also used some kind of recreated some kind

of art there are many people who think that they used to Oktar for personal decoration and for decoration of certain rudimentary art objects they almost certainly created ritual burials which involves a certain kind of artistic arranged. So then we go on even farther back so I dare say that art broadly considered and again capital A art is what makes us human just as much if not more subtle than our unfortunate Hansie to pick up on it. The nearest weapon when they're just Donora and it was he said a machine gun and do our worst. Well there in just a few words is the theme of the book. So if you're interested in reading more and it's really really nicely written the book is titled In The Land of Temple caves from Saint Melian to Paris a sense of peace. Notes on art in the human spirit and the author is our guest this morning Frederick Turner. The questions are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2

9 4 5. I think that probably a lot of folks have seen photographs. Some of these paintings but have not had the opportunity to see them in sight as as you did and I think that's one of the things that in the book you write about that which you just just looking thinking about this and just looking at representations at pictures is not enough you wanted actually to go to the place when you can do that. And indeed you can go to Chauvin must go in a lot of these places they they take people through the place on tour so you can go what what is the the place like. What's the feeling like and how is it different to stand in that cave and look at those paintings How is that a different experience from looking at them in a book. OK David let me correct one thing. Yes. I show the show that is off limits. Nobody's been in there except except for the teens who are

exploring it. In fact shown pluck who was one of the first at the Masters and analysts said that when I was trying to wheedle him into getting the special dispensation they said to me No you don't have to understand that if I don't put my wife in the cave how can I possibly tell her that. I didn't get insured and Lasko is off limits forever and the reason why it is is because our breath the breath of contemporary humankind has been progressively destroying the brilliance of the art right there because we're treating foreign LNG and blot out the colors but. There is a one to one scale of a portion of Glasgow which is just adjacent to the actual site. And that's simply called Glasgow too it is

really a brilliant piece of work. But it is true. It is used as you said with those exceptions that there are places where ordinary folks like you and I can go. And the experience of going into the cave which is sometimes called the cave the hundred mammoths the Pesh Maryl cave phone breakup a lot. If it's if it's hard to explain the shock of immediacy that comes when they turn on these these lights and light up the engravings with the paintings and you see them for the first time you realize that all of the reproductions that you've seen are beggared by the antiquity of these of

these things the majesty of. And beyond that the mystery of them. It's something that you know I remember the first cave I went into was was that reconnect. And everywhere the hair on the back of my neck just standing up and I saw that first minima edged in the wall and a nodule of flint which the artist has used to create the impression of a staring in the long curve of the posts and think of the tens of thousands of years ago that hands just like my own had been in this place creating that object. It's a feeling that it well it's it's almost indescribable to the best they can in the pages of the book. But it's it's words are bigger. Well I'm glad for the clarification I guess on how I got the impression. I look further at

what I have I guess I I do realize that less go was closed by the government in 1963 so I guess that it's been a while on that. I guess though that I'd have this impression of there if there were as you say at least some places where where you can go there and do let the public in so you can see some some of the examples and see them in the original play. Yes you know there are a number of really important places that are that are off limits and always have been. The Cave of the 12 for example that has the extraordinary dancing sorcerers so to say half human half animal figures surrounded by a menagerie of tumbling falling creatures and the end of it and the sorcerer figure has horns and a tail. I'd love to see that but its private property has never made it open to the public. But the larger point is this that if it isn't that you don't have enough of this beautiful material to really

you know understand something something of what's going on. If anything you have too much of it. That is to say I found after spending several weeks going through these caves that I was I was getting a psychic overload it was there was too much of it and I really couldn't absorb it anymore. We have a couple callers you'd like to join in the caution when we do that and we will begin with a caller in a nearby community of Belgium. And that's line number four. Well good morning. I'd like to know about something that we have here in the Midwest and Central. United States we have a lot of artifacts left behind in this. These are strictly on the surface and I don't talk about digging into any gray the areas or anything I'm talking about the artifacts that were left behind by the people that were essentially contemporaries of these people but a continent away and all the early heads in effigy

pipes and stuff like that are that are found literally on the ground in in this part of the United States now not like they were when they first broke the soil. But still today we can pick up the fabulous arrowheads are made fabulous pipes. Then are stones all sorts of utilitarian things that we really were well known well worked out by the people. Do you have meanings. Well you know I'm aware in a general sense of what you're speaking about. And I've seen the mountains and the St. Louis there. There are over there they stretch from Ohio to sing a verse in one song with that right. You know I've seen some of those and they're very impressive. I've not really sure that they are contemporaneous for example with the work and in Chauvet Cave are less skilled but it may be that some

things will turn out to be so because I don't know that consensus dating places you know human kind in you know in the New World before 20000 years ago could be wrong about that. What's your sense of what I did I didn't think there were these. These artifacts are really beautiful. And I think that you know if they're not quite as old as that I have to give you that point answer but I don't. Oh yes certainly are and I personally feel that the longer our studies go on that that figure let's let's just say 17 plus or minus is going to get steadily pushed back. We're going to we're going to be dealing in the in the low 20s at the very least. It's not you know all of that. Thank you very much sir. Well I think let's go to someone here locally in line one of the callers in champagne. Hello and I yeah I wanted to

take off on one of the points that seem to with some not since Kemp read a book I can't be sure but use count to have a counter weight so to speak. Good using 9/11 is one extreme in using our sting Frances the other extreme of certain tendencies in human nature and I sort of want to just expand on that. Let's hear what you have to say but bring it. Something more immediate in terms of since 9/11 was connected to the some of bin Laden and the Taliban the Taliban were also had caves which they were involved in destroying in Bosnia and which is they were giant Buddhists Scottish in India and there were also cases there which had been used by them

to the Buddhist monks which had all sorts of art in the cave stayed been used this hermitage is in the American side it was riddled with that and then forced all of that was destroyed by the Taliban as part of their what should I say anti Arthur anti far right are right actually anti local art because they write that all sorts of Afghan arts as part of their I don't know what to call it way of functioning. So to the end of the tie between the Taliban and Al Qaida and they're anti our Chris. I could use that word appropriately and call it service of their culture but nevertheless I just throw these thoughts out there like to hear what you have to say. Yes I infact I touched on this a little bit in the book. Yeah the the Taliban were famous for

destroyers of artifacts particularly those that depicted the forms of animal life which in their particular view of Islam is a heinous crime. I'm not sure. I'm not so familiar with the destruction of the caves but of course many of us will remember that the that the Taliban suddenly decided that the giant Buddha statues by Mia had to be blown up. They didn't do it themselves at least that's my understanding they got a squad of about to do that work. They also completed Well the sions. They completed the further the unconscionable destruction the fabulous art collection in in the National Archaeological Museum in. And I thought. That

kind a what's the capital of Kabul Kabul excuse me Kabul. At one point they went through that museum a squad of Taliban with hammers and reduce whatever statuary they came across that was offensive to them to piles of rubble. But as you point out sir they're not singular in that there's there is an anti art bias animists rage that runs through the history of humankind and often has to do with tyrants. There are plenty of famous examples of this in history and too many to be very comfortable with. But certainly the one that comes to mind is simply because. Coming to my mind and coming across my password as a man I was in France in September and October of 2002 was the was the anti bias of the Nazis.

You were calling Hitler regarded and sell it as something of an artist and to sponsor these faceless miserable works of art by his toady artists and so did Stalin and so did most Leni. There is the sense on the part of the destroyer that art represents something that is inimical to the aims of the destroyer and that it represents something that is the other side so to say of the picture. It is the shining brilliant side of the picture where is there side is darkness and death. That's my response. Thank you so much. Our guest in this hour of focus 580 is Frederick Turner. He's the author of seven books of nonfiction one novel and a lot of literary journalism. He makes his home in Santa Fe New Mexico the book that we're talking about here this morning. His title in the land of Temple caves notes on art in the human

spirit and it's published by counterpoint. And as as we explained to him it was the beginnings of this book where he is trying to think about and come to grips with the terrorist attacks of September 11 2001 and some of the larger questions that they raise. About human beings and their tendencies either to go towards creation or towards destruction. And as his way of thinking about the potential to create he started thinking about art and that sent him back to these cave paintings that date all the way back to the Ice Age which is far as anybody knows at this point the earliest art that we have. And it's and an opportunity to think about what art means why people create it. And it's it's a lot of interesting ideas there so I would certainly recommend it to anyone who wanted to look at the book. And of course questions here are welcome. 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4.

Five of our next callers in Urbana line two below. It seems to me you are a little wide of the points with the title of the destruction of art I think this is a a feature of the iconic caustic strain that runs through the Judeo Christian Islamic thought. Periodic Calais. Probably the strongest recent evidence of this is among the Wallabies who even destroyed. I believe it was Muhammad's first wife. The tomb because they have had apparently pictorial features to it which they considered blasphemous. But. Hardly limited to Islam. And hard uniting it. I suggest that I thought you did it because you went directly into the discussion of how the dictators in

dictatorships often destroy art which is true but it seems to me that's a little different that what was happening here with similar to what some of our Puritan ancestors did to the Catholic churches in England where they whitewashed the walls the Iconoclast the movement in the Eastern Orthodox churches during the late Middle Ages and at other times is that it's a reaction against what they see as blasphemous depictions of the human form which they regard as only something which God should create. Of course it's not universal even among the Islamic people because it's a rich pictorial tradition. You know Iranian art best exemplified I suppose by prim Persian miniatures. So that. I didn't take issue with your statement that dictators often destroy art but I think that it's not exactly what was

happening much as I did cry and much as I abhor what they did. A great loss but I think it's really in that iconic classic tradition. Well if I if I suggest it and I don't think I did. But you can correct me if I suggest that this is singular rather than oh no you didn't. I think it's the iconoclast Well I'm going nuts rather than the dictatorial. Now I don't. I'm not so sure that's the case. Well I'm quite sure it is because the war or the lobby influence is so strong among the Taleban that I doubt it but you've already. Yeah but you've already suggested other examples of it as well which which take as far outside Islam. Well of course because it isn't limited to Islam. OK well that's the tradition in the Judeo Islamic Christian. That's where we part paths here as well. Sometimes it's difficult to accept that the features of Islam carry over into the other traditions.

Well that's that's not my point my point is that that they destroy. Act of impulse somebody said once and I don't know who it was but I've I've often thought about it. Destruction is the final despair. It is the active manifestation of a despair which in effect says since I can't have things the way I want them I shall have nothing. And I thought I was thinking about that when I was coming to the latter stages of this book because I was thinking about Hitler. I was in Paris which is where the book ends and I was thinking about Hitler and thinking of this as the crown jewel of the Empire he was to create and had all of these literally monstrous faceless plans for how to remake the city and how to remake Lintz

into a kind of fascist Disneyland. And in order to do that you know certain things had to be rearranged destroyed carted off put elsewhere alternately. When Hitler realized that he couldn't hold Paris he ordered his men to blow it all up. Now that to me is something that has nothing to do with any iconoclast strain of culture. Me finish please. Surely that runs through anything. It is it is a manifestation of that is what I would call the destructive impulse. I don't I mean that's my point. If it's if it's something that you don't share that's fine. No I agree completely with you on what Hitler was. I think you're being a bit too frightening when you try to transfer this to what happened in Afghanistan where I think it was a quite different matter. And if we were to understand it I think we need to

understand their tradition. OK well fair enough. I appreciate the comments of the caller. We're getting to the point where we have about 15 minutes left and I have somebody else that I want to bring in too so let's do that let's go to Chicago and line number four. Well I guess I'm really sort of can you because you keep referring to tyranny than their destructive power but my destruction that I have. He has basically come from quote unquote a democracy. So how are you going to fix this into the mix. I mean when we look at the US dropping the atom bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki just the Religulous bombing to go through both of the Gulf wars in Afghanistan. There were many things that were destroyed besides just museums many pieces of art and incredibly old buildings. I mean we have and right now the policy of building weapons

that will create mass destruction because of our policy to take is a few hits to individual soldiers as possible. So did you work this into the mix when you were looking at the destructive power of human beings. Because unless you're saying that we presently live under a tyranny How do you work in our present military outlook on what on total war preemptive war. Well I think your comments are well taken. And I don't feel that I can afford. To get into what I think about the current war on terror and I don't think that democracy is exempt from examples of mindless destruction and in the name of

liberty justice and freedom. So I tried to. I made some comments in the early portion of the book about my misgivings about our response to 9/11 and like other Americans not all. I'd say somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 percent or 40 percent of us had these misgivings I suppose to begin with and they have only been reinforced by the course of events. And that's all I'm going to say about that. Well I really want you to take this though. You can not talk about that at all but let's go back to Vietnam. I mean we totally destroyed that country. And I think when we look at art the greatest piece of art. That has inspired most artists. Is nature itself right and most war is very destructive towards nature. And I really think that we have to get

beyond just this idea of tyranny. We're also going to include democracies of types of tyrannies or something because I really can't accept this thesis that tyranny pushes people to destruction because as I've said throughout my lifespan the destruction that I have seen has been the name of liberty. So I don't think so. I'm just having a little problem with this because of the destruction to humans and that and nature. Well it sounds like you're having a big problem and I have a big problem with that because all art comes from from people and if you destroy the person don't worry there won't be that cave drawings. Well I mean later on. Right. Well I would I would say. Two things about that. One is tyrannies of whatever stripe are only I think stream examples of something that is in human nature.

And of course one might go on to say apropos of our current situation. Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels and it may be that when if there is a history to write about this it will be found to be so. In this instance and certainly there are plenty of scoundrels who reference self in the flag in the years of Vietnam. Second thing to say is is that had they cave paintings that I'm referring to in the book then within the geographical and political reach of the Taliban. I have no doubt whatever that they would have been destroyed and and with them a priceless record of the human spirit written on the walls of these ice age caves. I have no doubt that the hundreds and thousands of people that died in the wars

have still a great incredible works of art that are beyond no doubt. I agree with you. Thank you. Let me just say one other thing. If I can. Sure. I've had a I've had a couple of occasions to see them in France exhibits some art created by the prisoners of the camps during World War Two and I can think of no more impressive testimony to the deathless creativity of the human spirit than these people living in unimaginable conditions and still expressing that creative impulse. Our guest in this part of focus 580 Frederick Turner and the book that we're talking about is in the land of Temple caves notes on art and the human spirit counterpoint is the publisher. And it's an exploration of art and what it means and whether it matters and what it is

that it's saying about us about human beings and indeed this whole thing this whole thought was touched off by his reaction to the terrorist attacks of September 11th of 2000. And you might want to take a look at the book and I think he has some interesting things to say. And of course questions are welcome 3 3 3 9 4 5 5 toll free 800 to 2 2 9 4 5 5 1. Go back to to the to the paintings and to the fact that the as far as we know the paintings were done in places this week these were not places where people lived. Those particular caves there were They're places they're not easy to get to the act of making the art would have because of the setting in the circumstances would have been difficult. So it would have been hard to make it wouldn't hard to get there for anybody to go and see it which leads to a lot of questions and I'm not sure we really have good answers but a lot of questions about what to the people who made them

what did they mean what were they for. Well you're right David day it appears. I think we should always you know it appears to us and so for as far as we presently understand or you know we need to we need to frame all of this. Because hardly a year goes by without some new discovery collapsing a long cherished theory of ice a change of heart. But it appears that these caves were not caves where people customarily lived but where they went to to create this art. And as you said a moment ago there are certain instances where the actual places within those caves where the artist appears were hellishly difficult to

get to the roof in a cave being and being almost that spectacular. Ask example that cave is so huge that in order for present day healing the sick to get to the to the site of the of the engravings and so on. There's actually a little train electric train and a narrow gauge track that takes you down to the bowels of the earth. Now you have to imagine our forbearers troubling doubt foot over rock that is slick with with water and clay in darkness bearing these torches and burying their tool kit so to speak so to speak their artistic tool kits to work these surfaces. There are other instances where the artwork is positioned over a chasm a drop

off or where it is evident that the artist would have had to lie on his or her back to it to work the ceiling. And wouldn't I wouldn't have had much of an opportunity if at all the sort of sort of stand back as the pater does for example in his or her studio and take a gander at the good work from the from a longer perspective. What does that mean. I guess that's that's the question. There must be some kind of connection between the difficulty of access and the importance or the sacredness of the images. That's that's the thing it seems to me one that comes across most frequently in the literature. Ice Age heart this connection between the physical difficulty and the importance of the step in the title of the book.

It comes from Joseph Campbell and it was his notion obviously that these were sacred spaces and the. The journey that you you take the reader on in the book starts with the caves and then you end up and assess a piece one of the big churches in Paris so it seems to me that you're drawing a line and you're saying yes sacred space sacred space that there is something that those those places have in common. Yes. Right right. I as I explained in the book I've been going to mass in the sense of peace whenever I'm in Paris for years and years and years but it never occurred to me until I went there fresh from the country of the temple caves that in a way this this to was it was a temple cave. As Joseph Campbell selflessly put it and that it was a

sacred place and and I never felt that before so powerfully as I had you know coming from that ackee 10. But more than that I felt that the old stone walls. Please. It's a piece we're we're reminder that we're always in the sacred place. There is no escaping the fact that we stand in a sacred place and it is our obligation to be aware of that and to act accordingly. Of course that's a tall order but but there it is. We are close to the end of our time we do have one more caller elected trying to get them in here there in Sydney. And so we'll go there line number one. Hello hello. Yes. Very interesting conversation. I'm a long time student of our history and we were taught that the caves at Lascaux and etc.

were directly related to the big cathedral and the experience of other worldliness you know going down into the darkness and coming upon this large cavernous area with the paintings and very similar to the dating of the cathedral and I would say more currently the wide screen TV. More evangelical churches but the reason I called was because I was listening to you talk about the dichotomy between creativity and destruction and I want to know if you think Prozac had been around during the impression it's been the impression that we have any Van Gogh painting. I know I'm I'm not laughing at you sir I'm just it's impossible to know but I'm I'm I'm remembering when I have a credited school and

and a student as a professor in the seminary. Professor Caplan do you think that Emerson listen existentialists and you know it's one of those time warp things here you know. So and Kaplan said United partly that's like asking if he oversold smokes cigarettes. But sometimes it's just right. So Bobo Bohemian image of I have to in order to create you know think there's any bacon in there. Well you know I don't know what Prozac does is it it's supposed to be a kind of numbing kind I believe. OK but see there are plenty of guys like Rambo and so on who took the drug and drank absence and other guys took what they could you know to take the edge off the suffering. So I yeah you know I think if Prozac makes you kind of a plan

that's a good for for art. OK so back to the big thing that could be a drop in the drinking of them. Do you think that was our vision. Well that's the current theory. A strand of theory that the some folks that have been working on. There are some guys that went from South Africa who have been working very hard on that as a felon I believe his name is Louis Williams hyphenated last name who has a couple of books on that subject. There's a fellow at UCLA I believe David Whitley who's been applying theories of vision visionary experiences to the South African rock art but rock art of of California I think it's really a fascinating

new line. An inquiry and they did they work it out pretty carefully. You know no no one theory that the history of you know yourself being a student of our history no one theory can possibly account for the majesty of this work. And as soon as somebody creates something like that you know then when it's knocked into a cocked hat. Well what about this what about that. We need all the tools we get tools of analysis right. Well final comment I'll hang up and listen. Attack of 9/11 and that great moment of destruction do you see any counterpoint you see any great moment of creation on the way. And I'll let you go. Thank you very much. Well we need to internationalize

the war on terror. If we could do that that would be that would be a signal for me just and I guess with a with a as a basic idea to leave people with it sounds as if reading your words and and what you've said that you would remind people that perhaps this the struggle between the impulse to create and the impulse to destroy is fundamental to human nature and that it's a struggle that we've just got to keep keep after that is to. To try to uphold the one and suppress the other. We need to be on the side of life. Sometimes it's not always easy to figure that out but sometimes it's pretty easy the lady from Chicago who is speaking about raining bombs down on people at a point you know if we say we have to destroy this in order to save it we better think that over pretty carefully. Well Mr. Turner I want to thank you very much for giving us some of your time. My pleasure. The book again if you'd like to read it is in the land of Temple caves

from say million to Paris a sense of peace notes on art and the human spirit. Pop counterpoint is the publisher our guest Frederick Turner the author of a lot of literary journalism as well as seven books of nonfiction and in one novel I will again I really appreciate you giving us some your time. My pleasure.