Harvard Book Store; WGBH Forum Network; Robert S. Lyons: A Life of Bert Bell

So today I'm pleased to welcome Robert S. Lyons and Upton bell. They join us today for a discussion of on any given Sunday a life of Burke bell. I have to admit that I don't know much about football. I'm more of an arts and crafts sort of gal but this biography by Mr Lyons is obviously more than just a play book. This in-depth account of one of the most important figures in football history is built upon numerous interviews with Bert Bell Suns NFL film archives and documents as well as many personal artifacts. Purple is credited for the famous phrase on any given Sunday for the idea of the annual player draft and was a driving force in changing the way Americans look at football. Steve Sabol president of NFL Films says Burke devoted his life to pro football as NFL as first great commissioner he shaped his time in the times to come. The rest walk in his footsteps. This book explains why. Robert S. Lyons has covered professional and college sports for over 35 years and has contributed articles to numerous national publications. He is the author of pandemonium a history of the big five and co-author of The Eagles encyclopedia. He is a former director of the Law

University News Bureau editor of the university's alumni magazine and instructor in the school's communications department. Upton Bell Bell's son is a former football executive and now in is also a talk show host in Worcester Massachusetts. He's been a sports announcer on both television radio since the 1990s and has interviewed the likes of Bill Clinton and Henry Kissinger. I'm sure the Upton Bell show is recognized by the Associated Press for Outstanding Talk Show in New England for three consecutive years. We're honored to have these gentlemen with us here today so please join me in welcoming Robert S. Lyon stopped in Bel Air. Well I'm the warm up act here today and it's not for Jay Leno of course we know where the hell he is. And. One of the things that I would like people to take out of this is it's not strictly a football book. Robert Lyons has put together what I think is a

masterpiece of reporting. And I do reviewing a books for a living. And one of the things that I've seen the book that he wrote it's about 340 pages right Bob is in the first and he'll explain a lot of this to you but me as a reviewer trying to separate myself 50 years from being Burt Bell's son and seeing him die on that very fateful day of October the 11th is to read a book even if you didn't care about football or you didn't care about sports. It's such a rich history of not only his life story but probably you never heard of Francis Upton. My mother and that's how I got my first name. Go ahead and sit down. No rehearsal for this whatever you want to do. And basically she was as sick fill fall east or she was discovered at the age of 12 as a ballet dancer came from a fairly I wouldn't say poor family middle type of family New York City discovered at the age of 16 at Macy's

two years later. She was a major star on Broadway. If you think about Bert bell and Bob's going to get into all of it both of their lives really without Francis Upton to me is there would be no National Football League and why. Because as Bob will tell you in very colorful fashion that Burt Bell lost millions of dollars and his father finally said Bert that's it. And they got married and he'll go through all of that too. But she actually lent him the money to bail out the Frankford yellowjackets rename the Philadelphia Eagles and started him on a journey that in my opinion and many others made him the greatest commissioner. In pro football baseball basketball or hockey history and why for the simple reason tell me anybody in any business with sports are not that invented a pro football draft that still is here 80 years later and is used by every sport. Tell me anybody who invented sudden death which you saw last Sunday and

I don't mean the death of Martha Coakley I mean the death of of what happened in the New Orleans Minnesota game that's fully 60 years later somebody who actually signed the first television policy somebody who brought about the player pension plan which every player has today and can thank Bert bell for it. It's on it's a Byrd Bell player pension. He recognizes the Players Association. He made up the first schedule and Bob's title on any given Sunday was what Bert Bell coined which a lot of people tried to steal. But my brother trademarked it. And the reason is that unlike the computers today he took the schedule and scheduled the weak against the weak and the strong against the strong and as a result by the middle of the season everybody was talking to me he was a genius and I don't use that word very much. What he did change the history of sports and at one time and Bob will tell you he is the only person to ever be asked to be the

commissioner of two football leagues and at one time a Football League and the baseball lake. That's how far he was advance. He also and Bob will detail this. Say Pete Roselle who is considered the modern genius saved his job. His story early on to me is a movie. If you read Arthur you read it right Jake and since you haven't read it yet but they will. The first hundred twenty pages a movie producer said to me you wouldn't have to change a word or a page. It is a movie right now because he's going to detail to you such a while life between Bert bell and Francis Upton and you'll hear Lindbergh Al Capone Dempsey Tunney machine gun the McKern hockey when he first go legs and all of the other people there. So without further ado I want to tell you another thing. Why not right. The cameras are running. This book took 50 years. I went to how many people

to say this is a great life even if you don't care about sports. Fifty years. Hey Upton we love it. You know what. Not going to get much money for it blah blah blah blah blah. Fifty years. Then one day about two and a half years ago I get a call from Bob Lyons and he said Hi I'm Bob Lyons. I want to do the book blah blah blah blah. But the most important thing and why I believe in the irony of life and why we're surrounded by books here at the fabulous Harvard bookstore is this on the day he dropped in watching the two teams he used to own in the last two minutes of the game on the field where he played as I'm trying to run across a field and think I can save his life which I couldn't. There was a young man at the Philadelphia Bulletin taking the call. A young cub reporter taking the call that Bert Bell the famous Bert Bell had dropped it. Fifty years later

I'm standing here with him never met him before. His name is Bob blind so without any other things to say let's introduce the man the Took a story and put it together where there's nobody alive except the children and traced it all way back from Lincoln's cabinet to today. So here he is Robert Lyons the absolute genius of this story. Thank you Upton I think is a good introduction. I'm going to quit right now while I'm ahead. But you know it is such a small world and a world full of irony. You know I both went to Lasalle university then it was LaSalle college. We were classmates. We didn't know each other. It wasn't until later that we got to know each other. And of course as Upton told you the rest is history but the one question I freak I frequently get because you know nobody and I can't believe that nobody ever wrote barbells biography

in 50 years I mean it was just such a fabulous story. But the way it came about I thought you might like to hear. I've written three books and my second book was called the Eagles encyclopedia and it was a history of the Philadelphia Eagles written with a friend of mine a pro football writer in Philadelphia Ray didn't. And when Ray and I decided to do the book we split the chapters right down the middle and I picked the chapter called The front office chapter which was all the owners and the presidents of the Eagles. And after you notice I say Eagles that's the way we say it in Philadelphia. But I started to research. And of course the founder of the Philadelphia Eagles and the first owner and coach was Bert bell. And after I did a little bit of research I called Wright and said I have to do a separate chapter in this guy. He's a

fantastic character. Well not only did I do a separate chapter but after the encyclopedia came out. Temple University Press asked me to do the book because it was one of the more popular chapters in the book. And I'm so glad they asked me because if they hadn't asked me. I was going to beg them to do the book. I really it was just such a great book in such a great book just a great story that needed to be told. But I think when you get down to it the Burt Bell story really is in three very exciting facets and the one is about Burt. Well of course the commissioner of the National Football League and I argue that he was the greatest commissioner in the history of professional sports. And there are quite a few experts who agree with me. None other than Don Shula the Great Hall of Fame coach of the Miami Dolphins who wrote was

gracious enough to write the forward but Bert Bell was just an incredible commissioner and the amazing part about it. Everything that the National Football League does today was Bart Bell's idea. Going back to the player draft the idea that he conceived way back in 1936 when he was actually just a club owner of the vehicles. He tried to sign a young and all-American player from the University of Minnesota and the player gave him a big runaround. He went out to Minnesota to talk to him of course back in 1936. That was no small feat because you didn't just hop on an airplane and fly out to Minneapolis you know. It was like a two day train ride or whatever. But Burt tried to sign him offered him more money than any other player had been making up to the time.

And this player gave him a big runaround and it turned out that he was playing the Eagles off or off against an offer from the Brooklyn Dodgers which was a team and they rival all-American football conference. And Bert just couldn't wait. And he refused the player refused his substantial offer and when Burke came back to Philadelphia he realized that you know there's we're never going to be able to compete in this league because the rich teams like the Chicago Bears and the New York Giants and the Green Bay Packers they have all the money and they're going to offer these substantial salaries and the poor teams like the Eagles and the Pittsburgh Steelers just can't compete. So he finally convinced the club owners to agree to the idea of a player draft where every year the teams of select players in verse order the weaker teams get the choice

of the best player and so forth. And that has saved the league from bankruptcy. It really created a balance in the leg which is maintained today and a number of writers have said that had it not been for that the National Football League probably never would have succeeded or survived. And one writer one is forced to say that it was the greatest single innovation in the 84 year history of the NFL back then when the book was written. But so and everything he did. Sudden death overtime the Upton talked about. I mean that was something that Bert Bell the decision or the idea came to him from his buddies hanging on a street corner. Can you believe the commissioner of the National Football League would come home from work have dinner and then go out and hang in a corner with his buddies at the soda store and they gave him some great ideas including

this one. And one of them said to part you know. What's going to happen if two teams tie for the championship it's terrible we don't want that to happen. And Bert thought about it but the guy's right. And so he went to the this with this happened right where the year that he became commissioner of the National Football League and he went to the meeting the next day the following month which was like in January one thousand forty seven. And he tried to sell the club owners on the idea of having a sudden death overtime in playoff games. And they resisted and they kind of like the idea of having a CO champion if it happens because that would mean one more team could have bragging rights. And so Byrd said to them Look he said next August when I have to send a team out to the annual college all star game at that time the NFL champions played a team of all Americans in Chicago's

Soldier for Soldier Field before a crowd of a hundred thousand every August. And Bert said to the owners look if we have a tie for the championship that means I'm going to send two teams out. And if I send two teams out it's going to cost you twice as much money and as soon as they heard money all the sudden they voted for sudden death overtime you know. And of course the phrase on any given Sunday. As Upton was talking about how his dad devised the schedule so the strong teams played the strong teams early in the week. Teams play the weak teams and you had a tie tie in mid-season and it was great and Bert Bell did this actually. He personally did the schedule on his dining room table putting shifting Upton's dominoes around and he would put them put labels on the Domino and shuffle them around and that's how he

actually came up with the league schedule and he actually devised the format that became the basis of one and the given Sunday a phrase that he always used to tell of his children and Francis and when on the given Sunday Anything can happen and he didn't give you no other. And finally in the 50s the Pittsburgh Steelers hadn't beaten the Chicago Bears in like 24 years and all the sudden they beat the Bears and writer in Chicago asked Bert Bell how this happened. And Bert Bell said Well as I've been telling people forever on any given Sunday and that the NFL is using that as its bye word it's amazing. A couple of years ago Peter King of Sports Illustrated wrote an item that attributed the phrase on any given Sunday to people and I called Peter and I corrected him on that. But anyway that that's

that's him and that's another story. But it's amazing because the modern people today think that the National Football League began with itself. Which it did not and that this is one thing I want to point out in the book with all the innovations I mean Bert Bell came up with the first annual player contract. He came up with the idea of putting numbers on uniforms. By position I mean just about every the first pension plan the first player's union everything stemmed from. Well back in the 40s and the 50s and it's just amazing that you know people that people just don't realize that today and it's interesting because after a while some of the players and the ball came up called the bootable you know Hawaii that competed with a pro ball and they started offering the players a little more money and it

became a point of contention for a while with the with the players and. But Bert insisted that the players stick to the stick to the Pro Bowl. But here you know I mean there were so many. I mean the league was so different back in those days I mean the year before Bert Bell became commissioner this was would have been one thousand forty six thousand nine hundred forty five. He passed a motion at the NFL owners meeting that the home team was required would be required to provide chalk and blackboards to the visiting team every Sunday. I mean this is the NFL can you imagine I mean this is like you know high school art and see why all teams do that. You know but that's how the lake was and. And later when Bert actually was a year before he died when the pension plan was finally approved and Bert told Jack Sal a writer for the Pittsburgh Press he was so proud because at the NFL meeting

the owners meeting where the players participated. He was so proud because none of the owners heckled the players. I mean can you imagine today Jeffrey Laurier another one of the owners that tackling players in meetings I mean they'd be oh I wouldn't want to tell you what would happen. But you know the league was so quaint back in those days I mean it was it was primitive you know and this is what Bert bell and horror did when he became commissioner. But I mean and then you also had Bert Bell the a fantastic personality just an incredible person personality Hellraiser. By an extremely talented Hellblazer I mean he was great at golf he was great at bridge I found an article by Charles Goren and Sports Illustrated magazine the great Charles Currin the great bridge player talking about what a challenge it was to play barbell and bridge and of course one of my favorite stories

was Bert Bell actually once won a bet. Playing golf blindfolded. And this happened back in the days when he was an assistant coach and just about just backtrack a little bit. Bert Bell had been an all I'm not middle market I'm sorry had been a a a a good to at and average to good quarterback not great at Penn but he took the University of Pennsylvania football team to the Rose Bowl. I mean now you people are from Philadelphia like we are that. But I mean in the Rose Bowl. And it just it that it did happen. And in 1970 by Bart Bell played his A played football at Penn and he after he graduated he realized he was never going to be good good enough pro player although he did play one game in the pros in another league against Jim Thorpe. But he realized that his

forte was coaching and hopefully maybe someday to own a team. But that show he became and an assistant coach at Penn is the head coach at Penn at the time was a guy by the name of John. I mean you have probably heard of the Heisman Trophy this was that John Heisman. But anyway that players are over in training camp somewhere in New Jersey and one of the players from Penn comes into the lunchroom and said oh I took a 12 on that first call that so-and-so golf course yesterday. And Bert Bell looked up and he said My God you took at 12 when I first told you he said I could do it. Yeah I could shoot it at 10. I should could shoot a 12 in that hole but wonderful. So the next thing you know the bets were being made and the players were for me and Bert Bell is out on the golf course and they put a blindfold on him and

he got down in the blindfold. Just an incredible story. But Byrd was a was a betting man was a gambling man. Then as his good buddy Art Rooney of the Pittsburgh Steelers said one time and his younger days but Bill touched all the bases and he certainly did. But Bert one day they were playing Dartmouth in the Polo Grounds in New York and the New York Times happened to call this game the game of the century. This would have been back in the 20s or I'm sorry back in the teens and Dartmouth won by eight points and the next thing you know the bird's teammates will look Iran and saying where's where's Burk's car. And here Bert had been born into a family a rather wealthy family of means and had a very expensive touring car as they called the cars back in those days. But Squire was

gone. Here he had lost his car in a bag and it was somewhere riding up the roads are here in New England or New Hampshire. And I would to a Dortmund player had it but that bird was quite a guy. And as I mentioned he squandered quite a bit of money quite a bit of the family money quite a bit of this is in our returns and lawyers and your estate right right. Yeah I never thought of it that way. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. But in fact at one point Bart Bart stad it was a tremendous character in his own right. And in fact one day his dad had played football at the University of Pennsylvania one of the first great players at the University of Pennsylvania and was on the National

Football Rules Committee and just a phenomenal celebrity and personality in his own right. And somebody once asked Bergdahl's dad where young Bert would go to college. And his answer was he'll go to Penn or I'll go to hell you know. So Burt's path was set for him pretty early in life where he was going to go. But now he's graduated and he's you know running around pretty having a good time living the good life. And his father told him Bert you have to settle down and. His father suggested the birth marry a neighbor a young socialite who lived in a neighborhood friend of the family etc. etc. and he promised Bert. We don't really know how much money it will say on a thousand dollars if that OK at least and if he would marry this young lady. So Burke took the hundred thousand or

whatever and up to Saratoga with his running buddies blew the whole amount the next day. That night overnight whatever the next day he came back home and said to his dad there's no way I'm going to marry that broad. And anyway Dad said OK well that's that's it no more. And I read in this you know you're going to have to work for me and work to earn money and etc. So Burt Young Burt became the general manager of the Ritz-Carlton Hotel which was a very elite hotel in Philadelphia. Own by his father. And. Low and behold cup of a year or so later or maybe it's even a couple of months later a beautiful young lady appearing in the Ziegfeld Follies which was the big show business troupe back in those days. And as most of the big names in show business did in those days

they would appear like when they were on Broadway they would appear and sing at the roof court and hotel hotels like the Ritz-Carlton. And anyway to make a long story short I'm not going to go into too much detail it's a chapter in the book. But yeah yeah and that but anyway Burt tried to romance this beautiful young maybe it was actually had been voted one time the most beautiful woman in America. She appeared on Broadway with every Broadway. She was the biggest name in show business. And she appeared on Broadway with just about every name and major personality you could think of ranging from Eddie Cantor to Bing Crosby just a credible list of people. And in fact it was the only show Bing Crosby ever appeared in Broadway was with. And smile. But anyway

right away Upton bird had met Francis one time previously at a party in New York. The all the show business people and the gangsters of the sports figures they all of the political leaders they would all gather together and party together. And as a matter of fact Francis Upton had a point but people like ranging from Charles Lindbergh to Al Capone. And that's just the way it was done back in those days. But when they first met in New York Burt was quite impressed with Francis. Francis was not impressed with Burke and that continued when she appeared at the roof garden at the Ritz-Carlton. She really wasn't dressed too much with her now but gradually Burton wined and dined our own romance star and literally chased her all over the country. Finally after he agreed to

stop drinking she agreed to marry him. And as it turned out it was just a beautiful marriage a beautiful relationship. There's no number one example right there right. Yeah. But it was. That's a separate chapter in the book and I you know I'll save that for your reading pleasure. Bye. So there are really three facets to the great story of Bert bell and so much so much I mean I could go on for hours and hours. Burt I was a a great hands on Commissioner. And he maybe he overstepped his bounds some time but as I said Don Shula said another people hate Thank God he did. You know because the leg was better for it. But for example and of course you can appreciate this as much of as a US Philadelphians. But the Philadelphia Eagles Eagles had

just moved to Franklin Field and Philadelphia and from an old dilapidated stadium called Scheibe Park Stadium. And it really was a step up. It was like the New York Giants moving into the Polo Grounds moving into Yankee Stadium a few years later. But anyway the Philadelphia Eagles needed a quarterback desperately. And Bert bell as commissioner arrange for the Los Angeles Rams to. Trade Norman Van broccoli into Philadelphia. And as a result two years later vehicles won the NFL championship by defeating the Green Bay Packers. Incidentally it's the last championship they won that was in 1960. But the coach of the Green Bay Packers of the time was a young man by the name of Vince Lombardi and that was the only loss that Vince Lombardi ever suffered in a play and that fell

playoff game. But but Lombardi had become became the coach of the Packers because of Bert bell. And here again the Packers desperately needed a good coach. And Bert Bell convinced the owner JOHN MERROW the New York Giants to allow the young assistant coach of the giants Vince Lombardi to interview for the Green Bay job. And it wasn't really an interview as soon as he walked into Green Bay for the interview he had the job. And of course he became maybe the greatest coach in NFL history. But that was the commissioner's doing. So I mean whatever was good for the league. Bert Bell did and that was very beneficial. Well. Another thing I wanted to mention I'd actually brought Bill as I told you found at the Philadelphia Eagles but later they became as many of the other teams in the league. They were struggling financially.

So after owning the Eagles for about seven years or so they were virtually bankrupt as were the Pittsburgh Steelers. And Art Rooney and Bert Bell arranged to have the Philadelphia Eagles sold to a young entrepreneur by the name of Alexis Thompson and Bert Bell took the $50000 from that sale and bought half interest in the Pittsburgh Steelers gave Rooney $50000 and that kept the Steelers alive kept the Eagles alive kept the league alive. And that's how you know they they did things back in those days because they were struggling. But there too there were times when. Bart Delano Ronie couldn't even pay the laundry bill and couldn't even pay there or pay for groceries and as a matter of fact and the illegals also in the one thousand forty eight forty nine when the Eagles won the NFL

championship. And by this time Bert Bell was commissioner of the NFL. He had to step in and pay the player salary because Alexis Thompson could not afford to pay the NFL champions salaries for that year. I love the anecdote that Upton told me too about Kate Smith. I mean he's sitting at the dining room table on the phone and he gets off the phone the says I gotta go up the boss and you know and and Francis and her beautiful style says Oh Bert I love Boston. I opened so many shows in Boston and cards I like I like parts of like I close this damn show. Yeah. It was quite a time. Well it's a good question because Burt was actually as up to mention offered the Commissionership of the Major League Baseball because they were struggling in many ways are still struggling today but a lot of it a lot of it has to do and of course I

will say now a major league baseball years later took one of Bert Bell's great ideas the draft the Player Draft. So whatever parity you do have you do have some today and baseball is a result of Bell's innovation in football but the problem in baseball and the problem today and all the sports and I think that optimal agree with me. The teams are so deluded you know expansion has ruined the competitive nature I mean when I was a kid there were 16 teams in Major League Baseball. Today there are 32. And I mean there are the good players back then were playing Triple-A you know and now they're good players. They're taking him out of college and are playing in the Major League Baseball so there that that's one of the problems. You know but. The league was so much easier. I mean to manage back in those days and as you know with Bert Bell putting

the dominoes around the kitchen table trick creating you know this sort of official race for you know three quarters of the season because he would make sure the good teams play the good teams and the bad teams played the bad bad teams and the records were people would be half decent today. That's impossible because of television the match ups this and that. The other thing Burt actually and that's the thing I really hadn't touched on with the television I mean television back in those days was really in its infancy. I mean the first game of been televised in 1039 but I think maybe 10 people saw it you know. And so television was struggling and nobody really knew. What to make of television and how to handle it. And Art really didn't know him self and he was very careful to tread very softly and nurtured the leg. But in the meantime Congress is on his back trying to nail the National Football League and Bert bell for

antitrust violations. And because among other things Byrd had come up with his great idea. It was Article 10 and the NFL bylaws and Constitution by it prohibited televising of home games and this protected the gate of the home team when they went on the road. You could see them playing on the road when the Eagles went to Boston. You could see the game but when Boston came to Philadelphia people in Philadelphia couldn't see that game and that protected the gate. And the NFL basically that was the big point of contention with with Congress against the league and they fought the league tooth and nail. Basically over that issue crying antitrust violations for as long as Bert Bell remained alive and to his credit they didn't overturn that rule until after Bert Bell died. But that really saved the leg but the amazing part about it. I just want to mention this before I forget it. So

I mean this is how far the NFL has come and television has come back in the early 50s before Bert Bell convinced CBS to televise games nationally. And it took quite a bit of convincing because CBS at the time. This is hard to believe. One Sunday afternoons was televising public service programming. And it wasn't until their big show called Face the Nation that CBS had roughly 200 affiliates at the time and all of the sudden when the local team started televising the games locally on CBS affiliates like WCAU in Philadelphia I'm not sure what the delay would be here. But all of the sudden the ratings for Face the Nation their prime product dropped so badly that only 23 of the 200

affiliates were carrying that show. And that's when CBS realized that hey maybe we better start televising pro football nationally. I mean that's hard to believe but and of course today you have the bonanza. That's right. And you know another little side like this has nothing to do it really with Bert bell but that it does with TV. The Wall Street Journal had a great story a couple of weeks ago talking about in a typical Pro Football telecast how much action how many minutes of actual football action do you think there is. Let me give you a quickie quiz here. In a typical NFL game that last three hours. How many minutes do you watch actual football plays. I mean but once I guess. You're way off. Hide your heart.

You're a very close very close 11. A little under 11 minutes 10 minutes and 47 seconds. Isn't that amazing. And so otherwise it's all replays and commercials and players standing around. And the interesting part too the only way that they quoted all the network producers talking about what they like to do and they don't give you cheerleader shots as much as they used to. They feel that college football is better for cheerleaders. The only cheerleaders they will televise regularly are Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders and that amazing. But anyway so I mean when you're watching that Cain I would say much action. You know I also have to mention too. And your question made me think about this too with with Upton if Bert Bell had lived three days longer Upton Bell might be owning the Philadelphia Eagles today. The financing was already in place. Burt Bell died on a Sunday

afternoon watching as we mentioned the two teams that he once owned the Philadelphia Eagles and the Pittsburgh Steelers playing at Franklin Field where he had begun his pro football and his college football career at the University of Pennsylvania. I was also like the good Lord came down and said OK Bert I'm going to give you a storybook ending. But he dropped dead right at Tommy McDonald had just caught the winning pass in that game with about two minutes to go as up to mention. And but and Upton's family didn't know this until afterwards. But Byrd had planned to retire as NFL commissioner for a day or two later and the financing was also already in place for him to buy the Philadelphia Eagles and give the team over eventually to his two sons. And but of course once Bart passed away the

deal just collapsed the financing and that and everything else. But it's so ironic. But the bonus pick by the way when Bart was negotiating with Congress and he was the now he was a registered lobbyist he was going to Washington. And Representative Emanuel seller who is from New York was always a thorn in his side for many years. And he said to him one day Burt that this bonus plan you have for the draft that's a monopoly. And Bart said Well you're right it is. He said I'll abolish it. And of course unbeknownst to seller The league had just made the rounds. Every team in the league had done it and they were coming up the last team that would have the bonus back. And so it was just fun it was OK to get rid of it add to that. So they got rid of it you know and look good.