American Experience; John Brown's Holy War; Interview with historian Charles Joyner, 3 of 3

it runs high men and the way he approached the gallows as though we were approaching the cross put the issue of slavery at center stage in this country as you know ever before had done he had polarized the two sections are ten such a way that the options available to it were severely limited and urgent story about a rematch everybody here works because you're so strong that doesn't appear to move the south really changed its abuse of brown and so

it doesn't the pyramid of the south changes that spew a brown himself during this whole time what that change their view of as the north the more changes its stewards of good and the more changes to the bottom and embraces the martyr which is partly up the poster with a lid a pendulum brown on the southern end the attention of brown and were so impressive sense from a state is remarkably consistent throughout the time but as time goes on the southern presses less exercised over while this mad men as they say in his gun and they are oh that how the north responds to him so that in the end the us but by the time john brown is

executed it's not round they're talking about it's about all those meetings in the north to celebrate the death and resurrection of the martyr that scares the daylights out of them let's go back and do that but the idea that they did everything for this vetting turned into a water is starting to this was so and that is not injected they don't want to be disappointed the southern press is remarkably consistent in its portrayal of brown from start to finish the back of him as a madman what changes in the southern presses the beauty of the north and i have come to believe by the time brown is executed that the whole more prison breaks this madman this crazy man who is come here inside

the slave insurrection and they find this an exaltation brown toured all over the north today a very very private man thing and a certain limits even unionists and the sop calculate the value of the union when other news at all but at the newspapers of so for this sort of frenzy developing in response there's a real rough and so i sat there there is some kind of frenzy and the press i think the most striking thing in the us though is not that intensity of rhetoric on the part of the fire eaters but the fact that former moderate and unionist newspaper is why the carolina when i

don't know where i'm going the most striking thing here is not that the fire leaders are people in the moore fire was striking thing here is that moderate and the unionist voters are now breathing fire there are now calculating the value of the indian they're now ready to embrace in this union as their response to the response to brown and the north as they say in their interpretation their understand and that the whole north has embraced john brown as a martyr has moved them toward saying this as a foreign country that they simply walk out i don't think so

i don't think in terms of jewel of don't have heroes maybe fun song people like james mcbride derek rose a lot to do a little our heroes is away again most couples off the hook with a pretty rose to do jobs for us to that extent the whole concept of the rose is a dangerous concept and now don't need for heroes is so strong that we are canceling to tell the difference and it relented become so we make heroes are people who have suffered a great deal whether it was voluntary or not and along with that john brown was a hero

i'm not really thinks so he did some time and away the ballot probably most of us would wish that slavery could have ended some other way that he was crucial to end on it and say why are certainly some would regard him as a hero purely because of that i think he was an extraordinary man who did something extraordinary that needed they're going to be done and i'm lying on talking about the reports are up the ones who was john brown was his nails that's a question and then john brown was an ordinary man maybe a little less than ordinary for most of his life who on one big issue

had wonderful beliefs wonderful sense of righteousness that overcame all his other manifold falls he had a little sense of how to accomplish this great thing for most of his life but when the choices got very very limited he chose an iran way a course that would bring the us that would put this terrible institution on the road to extinction you will fall poses the chancellor no words little my work yeah there's a certain amount of stuttering you've really you were the head of a very good a lot but i can bill we're more

than time to put the move but somebody in the hole i don't believe that you know i'm not sure i believe in atlanta yesterday says dr you were here i'm john brown was an ordinary man perhaps no less than ordinary for most of his life but at the very crucial point when the options were very limited after a lifetime of failures he chose a path that took a great deal of courage to do it that way and by doing so he put those great evil of slavery on the road you just

really understood that he had to die so set the slaves free now that he's had this great sense of serenity that overcomes it's also he knows he's accomplishing everything here is standing on that platform at some point and the isolation and the sole actor he's been condemned to die and he's alone with this thought john brown comes to the realization that that it would be a winner he has to be a loser first and everything depends on how he does that and then an unexpected serenity comes over and that never deserted him even as he walked out the gallows stood there patiently waiting while these troops went through their movements to the employers hire as ginger oh that was surrendered and never

left him in all the time they describe will probably looking at a map here you know the fact is that he's standing there with his right he's still live garvey are homeless people he still is in control as he was standing there with a hood over his head the jailer at the wall to drop a handkerchief as a signal to us or something like that and he said very quietly unpleasantly know i don't care the water to keep me waitin unnecessarily he had understood what it was that this was about and he was ready to do it he was ready to lay down his life for the calls that he believed in so deeply he

says whether we're writing all these pieces do you think he's uncomfortable as brown is riding toward the gallows serving their brooklyn that sheriff and the jailer said obama's all kaufman he says this is lovely country i'm sorry i never had the privilege of saying it before and they reported that he said this in such a pleasant and the bum for us when he got to the gallows he shook hands with the jailer and with the sherry and fight them and said gentleman goodbye know i don't think he was uncomfortable going to the gallows i think he knew as surely as he believed that god let them

to lead a raid on harpers ferry believe that god had led him to this moment and that this was in his mind his death and his resurrection and the fulfillment of god's purpose for him almost there it's bad it's been this is you know is the opposite of those sleuths are on occasion that drew saw an extraordinary cast of characters for the all that's commando truth drew students from the virginia military institute says thomas j jackson shortly to be likened to a stone wall and then a code that uniform that he borrowed the slip

them as oldham on rough and had labored for years to try to bring about this union and now he is so then the man from the other side is gonna make it happen is there to witness that that thats gonna make it happen jackson writes stood his wife that night that it's awful the fault that at the moment he's going to face the angel son apart from the eu wicked and everlasting torment said i hope he was prepared but i gather that was the va sometime time in lille as a target of residential

real estate this out is easier to goma was i understood the real laws the governor was obviously did not realize what the power of this medium had men so one the representatives of the press came and interviewed john brown that was a situation that will probably retroactively apply the term feeding frenzy to the way we do nowadays but john brown was quite comfortable with this he taught with the press easily a surprise and with the many people who had not known him or had not only his actions and i don't know i don't know of anything in american history in which the press had played such a role before this is really

an extraordinary event in terms of establishing a national media though it's still known to social media that create this in vastly different ways this is a saga it's a particular problem let's say that one of the most powerful legacies who john brown was

the song about john brown a song about his execution that became the great march and songs of the union armies they walk into battle marched and about one of the great legacies of john brown was the song that was made up about him about her as the execution that became the great battles all the union armies as they marched into battle john brown's body lies more in the grave now this show more than anything else the great mistake that governor wires and virginia made and put in john brown on trial and second the birth family and executing him and they're not done that they might have ended up like charles sumner of the gut pain and the senate the union troops never been saying any songs

about charles sumner was bleeding on the floor that was john brown's bought a lie as a mouldering in the grave but his soul goes marching all right listen ah ahh ooh the mall to is the new name news and mahler's music so aa game was moral

dr moran long barrel bout goes so is mine at the true you'd drawing brought mosul is my boot in jarrod there are bar law at the moon you say against a wall the pittsburgh and it really is the video murtha of those trying to them up there tonight in the us

molly no errors drawing the ball to the name used well no but his soul goes marching all that song is not the least of john brown's lawyers say that song became the great march and song of the union army and they marched and the battle on many a battlefield simon that song and its

companion first john brown died that the slaves might be freed and the soul goes marching on their baby due to deliver the comments of the euro would see others with your mouth there's a point out that more comfortable with a pitch them are women that are very intelligent shows giant fb jesus that anytime you have

a become you have to have a sacrifice or at one of john brown's achievements was essential a common jon was in the book among the sacrifice or you could make him the martyr are was heard i think and russia and the trial with john browne willie john brown wasn't recovered from his wounds and was lying on a pallet there he heard and satan to execute john brown so did it become a martyr and he heard them unconstitutional science and i'll try and john brown for treason against virginia where john brown was on the citizen or virginia and treason woman unconstitutional charges could not over the court well what was tested a publisher the senate should just cut it wasn't some unconstitutional charge it was never tested and the

supreme court are in the federal court system and roger connor was still the chief justice the supreme court among the actual thing that was and given american constitution decisions in those days but there's resistance to listeners or this seems to be almost a choreography of this whole time and which once it's set in motion by john brown the two sides seem to fall and a complimentary roles in the us that's the us or pardon there that is laden or so poor and emancipation what is what is this there's a

simplified form here that bleeds and the two sides instead of six very tender multiple sides of the question two sides that ultimately have to fight it out over this issue of slavery the common era when you were losing that was governor was doing all the things to get rid of his then there when i thought i said that when i said it has to be the sacrifice or and brown shame damn you know made him cover himself with shame but then the sacrifice victimize i'm john barrow they hear the governor you know at all and this is and so of the boss there is this is altman's and in some sense this is almost a choreographed pondered

her of the two sides of john brown has to be a loser in order to be a winner he plays his role to perfection and almost as though they had rehearsed it governor was asked to be the whole loser book calls it is apparently a winner is the counterpart of john brown in this pod a day or so as it goes on he plays his role and the commentators on both sides of the mason dixon line play their assigned roles and polarize on their units and so they're there's this great irony burton the loser mr weiner weiner who is the loser lawyer

thank you he's been to is to pay well it's really extraordinary the way this crisis seems almost as though it's a choreographed almost as though it were a partner der the two sides of john brown chooses the martyr role which requires a sacrifice or and quite bold to the governor was of virginia who assumes the sacrifice or roll turning him shame with

all story corps than good editorial writers on both sides of the mason dixon line say in the fall onto the end of their own assign roles in the chorus in which they are right the kinds of editorials that divide and polarized the country and so and then and that john brown had to become a loser in order to become a winner john was the winner that's because these days is big