Helmsley Lecture Series; Charles Morgan, Jr.

The signaling we have. An attorney. [Speaker] From the city of Birmingham. A man that I don't know as much about as I do some of the previous speakers. A man that has come to our attention only in recent not. This does not mean that he has only been. A recent. Convert. To the cause of civil rights. He's one of the few attorneys. In very mean and. Reality in the state of Alabama, I would think, uh, who has been not only defending Negro citizens, but defending victims of, of uh, the denials of civil rights and we have seen. At least one of them. Here in our audience this evening, uh, It's hard to find an attorney, pretty difficult as Eddie Barshack knows, to find a good attorney in Boston, uh, when your civil rights are

in jeopardy. A little more difficult to go scouting around for one. In the city of Birmingham, Alabama. But. This is not the only reason that has marked, uh, our speaker this evening Charles Morgan Jr.. Uh, uh, for national attention. [pause] Uh, not only has he had the courage to, uh uh, step out of the crowd, And at considerable sacrifice, and at times at considerable jeopardy to his own career, uh, And to the complacency of his family life. Assume a degree of responsibility that, I think it's safe to say the majority of his fellow citizens in the city of Birmingham, uh, long since had forgotten about. If they had ever seriously considered it, but several weeks ago, I guess it's now more than a

month or more. Uh, On the, uh, day, or the day, several days after the very tragic bombing. Of the. Church. In Birmingham with. The number of Negro children were. Injured and several were killed. Charles Morgan, uh, spoke to the, his fellow citizens for many years in the city of Bos- uh, Birmingham, and if this phrase has not been ruined now by television or commercials or something of that order, it was a kind of moment of truth. that comes very rarely. In those environments. And. indeed, in a larger, uh, uh, environment than

Birmingham. But certainly nobody had mounted the pulpit, and I think that's what he did this, this uh, morning or afternoon when he addressed, I believe it was the, uh, chamber of commerce, and, uh, pointed out to the citizens of Birmingham, uh, just how far, uh, The situation had disintegrated. How indeed, dead, the city of Birmingham was. With respect to most of the things that most of us consider important. And so, uh, We've asked Charles Morgan to come to us this evening. Not to repeat that message to the Chamber of Commerce, we like to feel that uh, perhaps uh, and perhaps this is erroneous, that we don't need it as badly as they do. Uh, We'd like to find out what kind of a man he is. Where he came from.

What were the resources of his background and his thinking and his prior experience. That he was able to draw on. to uh, uh, gather together, uh, the courage and the insight that it required to make this kind of a statement, and to do the other things that he had done previous to this. In this, uh, unfortunate city, that has had so much unfortunate publicity recently about, uh, so many different, uh, tragedies all, uh, moving about the same theme. We've asked him to come here, to talk to us, uh, about himself, so he may need make no apology about that, uh, because in a sense. The closed society that exists in Mississippi

and we talked about several weeks ago, exists in Birmingham, as a single city perhaps, to a higher degree, uh, than any other area- any other area. In the United States. How that society is penetrated, how we deal with that situation, uh, what the ultimate solution to. The disgrace of Birmingham, that in many respects all of us share. In addition to the citizens of that city. Uh, we've asked him to come here and talk to us about that tonight, and I hope that there will be some gleam of hope in, uh, what he has to say, Mr. Charles Morgan [applause] [Morgan]: Thank you Bill. Uh, in the first place, it was the Young Men's Business Club, thank it wasn't

the Chamber of Commerce. I thank you for the introduction, I can hardly wait to hear what I'm going to say. [scattered laughter] Uh, it was stated to me that this was to be an informal talk. And I trust informal means unprepared. So I will proceed to go through the psychoanalysis of me to find out why I'm here, I'm not at all certain that uh hope springs eternal in the human breast I'm not always certain that all places have hope at all times.I'm not certain that uh in some societies in some civilizations hope i particularly a saleable commodity. Nor am I certain that its a uh, I'm fairly certain it's necessary for change but I'm reasonably certain also that there are times when there's no reason for it to exist. I can't really tell you when I change, because I can't really remember when I was any other way. I grew up in Kentucky til I was 15, and then we moved to Birmingham, the Magic City. That was the slogan then. The sign has been

taken down since then. We uh went to high school there, University of Alabama, undergraduate school, in the law school there, graduated with honors, and taught at the University American Economic History, and practiced law for three years with a firm, and for more than 5 years on my own. I've handled a few civil rights cases alone--I guess more than any other white Southern lawyer has. I managed to do with comparative anonymity-- even though we appeared in court, not too many people read about it, and from that there was always a sense of security and safety. One of my noted clients is here in the room tonight. I managed to attain for John Roberts Zellner. Most of you don't know his first name was John. That's a legal title they put in indictments. For John Roberts Zellner, on one of his stints through the South, I managed to to assist him in obtaining a mistrial before a Montgomery County jury. On a charge that involved 10 years. And it was a felony charge.

And it was related to race, of course, or he wouldn't have been in jail in the first place, but the fact remains that it wasn't particularly on the subject, and it would be rather difficult to rev--it would've been rather difficult to reverse a conviction. But I've--I've noted that when I got through, in keeping with the tradition of some of my clients, he within a week or two went to jail in Danville, so there wasn't really sense to keep him out of jail in the first place. [laughing] I think the first case that I handled in this field involved a young student named Tommy Reeves. Uh, he had participated He was a Methodist at uh Birmingham Southern College and somehow he had become involved in. [sound of something banging] That was Tommy. [laughter] uh in some demonstrations, he hadn't actually become involved, he was actually innocent, but he was arrested and held in jail, and I was the lawyer that was called upon to defend him. The present of Birmingham Southern College has since stated to me, at that time the president Dr. Henry King Stanford He's now president the University of Miami he since stated that

he searched for the Harvard and Yale lawyers but he couldn't find them. And he came to the conclusion at that time that if the if the principal purpose of higher education was to teach people. To refrain from reverting to type, that Harvard and Yale apparently had done a rather poor job at least on its graduates in Birmingham. We uh handled that case with some relative. anonymity. I've been involved for years in politics in the state, or at least I, up until lately we uhh We were young democrats national committeeman for the state and. served as state chairman for the Kennedy Johnson speakers' bureau in the 1960 campaign. Managed to work through sundry other community campaigns and projects. I, the second major case I handled I suppose would be the case of one Reverend Robert E. Hughes, a Methodist minister. Who is executive director of the Alabama Council on human relations. He decided he didn't want to give the best work Alabama grand jury. You don't want to give them the names of the members

of the Alabama Council. And the grand jury at that time was busy itself with the indictment of Harrison Salisbury of the New York Times for criminal libel. uhh Salisbury had come to town. And written a story about Birmingham which said it was a city of hatred and fear. And the reaction of the city was uh It was uh This can't be my city. We don't live in a city of hatred and fear, and you see 90 percent of the people don't. Because 90 percent of the people don't speak out and don't disagree. And so really quite understandably the people there just said this is a terrible article, Salsbury want to be sued for libel in civil cases. And he wound up. indicted for libel in criminal cases, I've forgot whether he was indicted on 33 separate counts or 42 but. Anyway you look at it it becomes sort of approachable portion of a mans life if he ever came and stayed, he hasn't. Well we defended Hughes he didn't want to give up his records. He had loaned one of the people Salisbury had talked to. and he wound up in jail over weekend Labor Day weekend and uh for contempt of court

and finally the dropped the subpoena duces tecum??? to try to get the records from him and he got out of jail. Of course as soon as he got out of jail he was expelled from the north Alabama Methodist Conference as a minister. And since he was a Christian and that was his chosen avocation he didn't rightly take to that, and the national church immediately got the the Bishop of Southern Rhodesia to call upon him to be a missionary. [laughter] And that's Southern Rhodesia now, [laughter] and uh So Hughes, uh Hughes came to Boston went to Boston University I think. The African studies school here. He learned the language of a nation to which he was going and he got his $400 church allowance, and proceeded to uh leave for Alabama where he was going to deposit his automobile with his father. He stopped in Harlem to get a hamburger And uh when he did they uh, somebody broke into his car and stole all of his.

credentials plus his $400 Purchases with his clothing allowance. And I often thought of the O'Henry- esqueness??? of the situation for 7 years he'd struggled in the south with biracial committees and working in the field of attempting uhh to at least cause some communications between the races in the south. And it's just his luck. That on his way back to Alabama he has to park automobile in Harlem and have it broken into, now if that weren't a harbinger of doom The fact that when he got to Southern Rhodesia with his wife and three children. And discovered there that uh he couldn't send his children to school because Southern Rhodesia also had a segregated school system, and not only that but they had no white school where he went. So I would suggest that if any of you are interested in the field of civil rights as a as a field which offers great hope and great promise or future rewards and happiness, that you forget it. Because the the strange thing about civil rights is is that it winds up in all sorts of dichotomies of problems

for people with Lincoln it meant an assassination, with others throughout the history of this country, it's meant privation, struggle, It may be in the struggle there is grace and it may be in the struggle that the stress of living life and perhaps that's what it's all about in the first place. But I don't think it's a game in which you can enter where you say to yourself, that uhh everything's going to be alright. We don't really have anything to worry about. We're right there won't be any problems that come our way because. doesn't matter how right you are there will be problems that come your way. For some who choose to go to jail and they do choose to go to jail. For the problems of the jail or the problems of going there I think those things ought to be understood by those. Those people who do so. For others who choose to speak out there's certain penalties hat have to be paid. For some people it's easy not to speak out and for other people it's very difficult. I don't think it really is a great measure of a man's courage as to whether he does or does not On a personal basis anyway.

Some people just couldn't live with themselves if they didn't. Now, We talk a lot about southerners and southern moderates and southern liberals and what they're supposed to do. And it's very easily for us to moralize on these subjects with respect to southerners and southern liberals. But I would suggest that when a southerner speaks out and when a white a white southerner speaks out he does so in a totally. From a totally different base than does the negro. The negro who uhh becomes a leader in the civil rights movement is immediately revered by his people. He ha- finds himself on a 24 hour a day voluntary guard. He find himself. Honored by his community. he finds the people he grew up with are still friends. And he really finds no tremendous loss because he's fighting for his own rights. And the gain that he makes will be again for himself and for his people. For the white southerner the problems entirely different

because when he speaks out and when he moves in this view, he gives up his friends, He gives up a large part of the business the negro would not give up. He gives up a large part of the acceptance in his own community that he would have, And he chooses for himself a rather lonely course. Some people must choose this course and some people of course will never choose. I [pause] I worry a great deal. These days not so much over the- especially coming from Birmingham, not so much over the problems of the extreme right and the problems of the extreme left. But the problems of the extreme center. I would call it the ultra center It's the it's the- people who do less than nothing. By the toleration of the views. of people who lead to bigotry and hatred and violence into that course. I think we're all more or less guilty of this. People usually say what they think somebody else wants to hear them say.I have a Jewish client from Gaston

Alabama who came to me with the story of a time when he went to New York, recently. . And there in New York he got a taxi cab from LaGuardia driven by a Negro. And they were driving downtown to one of the narrow New York streets. And some of the local Spanish-American citizens came out were walking across, jaywalking and the cabbie honked at him and a couple hand signals went back and forth. and a little bit of shouting and that sort of thing and the negro cab driver turned to the backseat to my Jewish client and he says. Look at those 'spics. He said you know it's going to be the same way all over New York.I live in a nice neighborhood in a couple of moved in and they're about to take the place over.[laughter] uh Well this is not the sort of comment that the white hears, because you see when the white man the white man or woman in the south. Generally equates. The problems of social justice with what with what that person hears. So the white woman will commonly say to

85 people in the course of a 3 week period, my maid Mandy Sue told me. that she likes segregation, I have one friend who told me that one week and the next week. CBS ran a show in which Fred Shuttlesworth church was in the film, And this particular person's maid was on the front row and she fired her the next day because it was such a not particularly because she was a bad maid or she disagreed with her, but just because it was such a terrible blow to find she's been lied to and made a fool out of. I think people have got a constitutional right to lie to their employers. Apparently everybody does it. So it uh eh uh Just a pattern of life everybody is very nice always. But you see. The negro who says she likes segregation, whether it's in the kitchen or not to her employer or not Somehow participates in the making of decisions in this world by that statement And the nice people who got all the nice cocktail parties and who stand around and chat with people and listen to all the bigoted comments that they hear. They somehow tolerate those things.

And the audience that goes to hear the speaker and I don't for a moment believe that a man who hates hasn't got a right to speak.I think he does. But the problem is what does the audience do when he does. In Boston when you've had speakers here of late who may have been the voice of hatred in a southern accent in a business suit. How many people sat on their hands? And how many people applauded? You see the speaker has to evaluate and equate in his mind whether what he's saying is popular or not, and if the crowd applauds. The crowd approves the speaker and what he said. and the crowd never thinks about. It so he does the same thing the next time and says the same thing. The role of the moderate in this country in the role of the the ultra Center has pretty much become this, if a person comes in and says, you know they ought to impeach Earl Warren as chief justice of the Supreme Court and the moderate today he says.

You know that's a pretty good idea but we can't do that let's not talk about that. and in the south. the moderate has moved so far to the right. And so far to the extreme in order to accommodate and to placate, That what was moderate or what could be called moderate is no longer moderate and no longer temperate. It's illegal. It's immoral.It is in. The truest and finest sense of the word. Opposed, Well I was going to say un-American but let's put it this way. Opposed to the thesis and theme of American life. How many times does everybody in the room. sanction everything, that goes on, that's wrong in America. And how many times does everybody in the room find it terribly easy to look at Birmingham and to satiate and salve their consciences. Because something happened in Birmingham, it didn't happen in Boston.

I'm pretty well convinced that people are people whether they live in Birmingham, Alabama or Boston or Oxford Mississippi. Or Dallas Texas. And that's never mistaken. The people who live in those cities are nice people. The good people. They have good jobs they have nice homes they're suburban dwellers. They want to bring their children up not to hate. In their context. They go to church on Sunday. They go to temple on Saturday. They live through their lives in a in a very nice respectable manner. They avoid controversy because controversy is the bad word in American life. They don't want to be controversial. And they want to get along with everybody. So they never speak out and they never say anything. Now I submit that these people are as responsible that all of us are as responsible for all of the horrendous acts

that take place in this nation As are those who pull the trigger or light the fuse. And we always have a very difficult time attempting to equate in our own minds what could I do. Everybody says What can I do. And of course nobody can answer that question only the people who know what they're doing themselves.if its a There are a million different situations that I trust will get to those things when we talk and we talk in terms of questions. For some people the answer is to join the demonstration. That's their answer and that's fine, For others it's go south an attempt to register voters that's fine. I worry a little about this. The reason I do is because like I keep thinking it's a lot easier. To be a liberal. With respect to the problems of the south. Than it is with respect to the problems in your own backyard It was for years, a lot easier for Americans to be liberal with respect to Africa, we built heroes in Africa.

than it was to worry about the problems in America. Feeding the poor Chinese was a problem once. That was not - and the feeling didn't come with respect to America nearly so much, as it did with respect to foreign powers. It's a lot easier, always. to be frightfully liberal with somebody else's back To be frightfully liberal with somebody else's back yard than it is with your own. north. The Negro movement in the north is very different from the negro move in the south. In the south, the Negro has a hope. The. Negro has a hoe. whatever else he's got, he's a winner. He can pick up the newspaper and you can read about James Merrin going to school over here. Read about that Vivian Malone and Hood ?McGlafry? going to go to university or Gantt up in South Carolina, or sit ins Gantt up in South Carolina our sit ins work someplace or. They'd be

isn't that something, they can sit around and say, "we're winning because it's coming from so far behind." And the victories are so simple and so easy. But they're on the move and there is hope. In the north, Negroes have had these rights for many years. And there-. And there is far less of the And then. And there is far less of the winner is a minute. In the south you have a tradition of the demonstrations, for instance in the south, are principally based and have been based on the Christian ethic. You see, the cultural heritage of the Negro You see the cultural heritage of the Negrito and this in this country especially in the south from the one thing So the Negro in the south, and the demonstrations of the South have come through the Christian church. And the Negro leaders in the south are the Christian leaders. Are the question leaders. Now. The of thing is almost an act of, I should think, of rebirth or baptism.

It's a struggle that,It's a struggle for rights it's a struggle for a new life and a new way. I'm not really sure its that way in the north. And I think there are appreciable and substantial differences. Now I worry a great deal about. The appeasement of bigots in this country. And I think that's what I've been talking about to a degree tonight anyway. about to a degree tonight anyway. It's how easy it is to I made a talk last night at Harvard. And in it. I quoted something from John Kennedy it was entitled Why America Slept. It was the Winthrop House where Kennedy gone to school and written Why England Slept. And I want to repeat to you. A part of what Kennedy said there. John Kennedy, the president, traveled to Dallas

to speak out against those enemies within who threatened our institutions. His violent death shocked even the most complacent appeaser of bigotry and hatred. Does America still sleep. In 1940, John Kennedy, the Winthrop House undergraduate, concluded his thesis on the appeasement of his time. With these words. Prophetic for the ordeal of this December 1963.To say that democracy has been awakened. By the events of the last few weeks is not enough. Any person will awake is not enough. Any person will awake when the house is burning down. What we need is an armed guard that will wake up on the fire per start. Or better yet We should profit by the lesson of England and make our democracy work. Right now. Any system of government will work when everything is going well. It is the system that functions in the pinches that survives." So wrote John

Kennedy at Winthrop House 23 years ago. And you of Winthrop House and you here today. Awakened by the events of the last few weeks.must join a great national effort to put out the fires of hatred and violence. We should and must profit by the lesson of Oxford and Birmingham and Dallas and make our democracy work.We must make it work right now. [coughing] Now. The one thing you keep seeing that comes through throughout the south and comes through across this nation, whether it's Oxford or Birmingham or Dallas or wherever it may be, Is this thing of, this is not our city. These are not our people. They're outside agitators. They're folks who come here from someplace else. They foment rebellion. We'll handle our own problems," and all of this sort of stuff and that and this, and you hear this. And and I'm I go back every time I do. I go

back to the Shirer's book on Germany the. Actor that I in 1938 and no one did what they should have done and nobody spoke. And I've become pretty well convinced that if the average French journalist went to see the average middle class German, in 1938 and he came in and he said "Hans we've been friends for 30 years. What's happened here in Germany? That was terrible last night." Hans would say to him That was terrible last night. You know. you people coming in here, but the Jews would be alright if it weren't for the agitators, If it weren't for the Communists, they'd be aliright. And you know no matter what you people say about the Jews in Germany, if they didn't like it here they'd move and whatever else you may say about us, its you foreign newspaper men

just in- exaggerating the situation and I'm not a Hitler man. I never voted for Hitler and I don't like him, but I want you to understand one thing. That the stormtroopers do a pretty good job here of keeping law and order They went out of bounds last night, but it was unofficial They went out of bounds last night but it was unofficial. They should have done And furthermore why don't you go back to Paris and write about the Jews there, you've got a problem at home." One of my great problems is I know many Jews today who say the same thing in Birmingham with respect to the Negroes. negroes. And many Americans are going to say the that arises, and perhaps this is because, people act like people when they're in states of stress. Birmingham consistently says "Mirror mirror on the wall who's the fairest of them all?" They're worried about their image and the answer comes back "not you." [laughter]

And so the answer is "break the mirror!" The obvious answer of the people there is "break the mirror". I [Pause] think there are an awful lot of people, an awful lot of places who have an awful lot of influence that they're not using. Boston is one of those places. I don't know how many people in Boston are connected with businesses in Birmingham. or Jackson or someplace else or how many people in Pittsburgh or New York or For how many people in Pittsburgh or New York or Detroit. many power sources other than the United States government. And in social life the most effective and efficient of those power sources often are. The leaders of industry the leaders of business the leaders of journalism in the press, the writers. The leaders

the writers. The leaders appeals totally unrelated to the government. Insofar as responsibility is concerned. And how in the West are willing to run the risk of. are willing to run the risk of. Of the alteration of employment policies with Or are willing to speak to bankers about their policies there in the south, ones with whom they deposit sums. How many people in the north have really taken an active step. Which might be a little inconvenient for them to make a little bit more acceptable, speaking out by people in the south. When I was in college, I have-- I do have hope I was in college. I have. I do have hope. Bail. But I don't think it's that. I don't I don't think it's

just going to be a bowl of cherries, but when I was at the university I did hear of Alabama, I heard a story once from a professor of mine and a political science. graduate course, we were in a seminar, and Several of us were concerned over a man. At that time named McCarthy. And the professor, Albert Lepowski, he left the room and he came back. A short while later with a letter that he received from a man named Louis Brownlow maybe you're familiar with him, maybe you're not, he's the author of several books. If you're familiar with him maybe you're not he's the author of several books. Passion and almost every administration since then. He died about 8 weeks ago. And the letter went something like this, it said "Dear Albert, You're quite correct in your recollection of our recent conversation. When I was a young reporter in Washington one day," says Brownlow. "I was walking across the street from the Old House Office Building. And I was accompanied by an elderly gentleman named Colonel Maury.

Whom you may remember as Maury Maverick's grandfather from Texas. And a representative from Texas named Arthur Sladen. Colonel Maury had gray hair down the nape of the neck and he had a little black string tie, had a beard, a white beard, And," says Brownlow, "as we were walking along, representative Sladen who was on the district subcommittee in the house concerned with school problems of the District of Columbia, turned and said," and this 1945, turned and said to me. Have youever seen a school board that wasn't composed of absolute nincompoops.? Whereupon Brownlow responded, that he said 'no he'd not'. And the elderly gentleman Colonel Maury harrumphed and he said 'well I have. When I was a boy in Albemarle County, Virginia. My father was a member of a school board that wasn't composed of absolute nincompoops,' [takes gulp] He said 'one day walking down a dusty street we met three other

a dusty street. and they held a meeting on a street corner. And there while holding my father's hand walking down the street I met those other three members,' said Colonel Maury, 'and on that day I met Jefferson, Madison, and Monroe.'" The man died eight weeks ago who met a man who met Jefferson, Madison, and Monroe. We live in a truly young nation. They've been a cruelly young nation. Regardless of what we may think of and you are young people. in a young school and I think perhaps you're going to have to decipher the ways of the future. In a nation which I believe. is truly intended to be the land of the free. Thank you. [applause] [applause] [pause, cut] [Speaker] In some cases, and in some instances, where you have a political structure such as in Atlanta or other

Some of this is where you have a political structure such as that Atlanta or the place. The lunch counters and public facilities, then it works, but if you don't have that sort of a power structure. It certainly hasn't worked in any place that I know of, I can't think of a victory for it. [Audience member] The answer is yes. [Speaker] Well I'm not, see, you framed your question, you had 2 questions in there and I haven't answered one of them I don't think yet, what was the question? The answer is yes, what's your question? [Audience member] Violence would not be more effective than non-violence. [Speaker] Would violence be more effective than non-violence? [sighs[ I certain- now I think not, and the reason I think not there is because uh [pause] I don't think- that the -uhh I don't think the techniques or the numbers of people are there

I don't think the techniques. Or the numbers of people are there. That If uhhh if you're going to have uh and I If you're going to have. [Audience member] You think that violence is not as representative, powerful likely to be more effective than violence by members of the minority? [Speaker] I think that's been the lesson of history. Yes, [Audience member] Don't you think that umm [unintelligible] putting pressure in their own firms so to speak in their own communities for desegregation, that umm if you allow them to do this, you're also saying, its alright for them to take other positions regarding umm other social questions which might not be so favorable? [Speaker] Oh I don't say its alright either way, All I say is as long as you do it one way I don't say it all right away. I think as long as you do it one way you might as well do it the other.

To give an example. Scripps Howard has a newspaper in Burma scripts segregationist, his northern newspaper is integrationist. Now, Scripps Howard would say we leave our editorial policy up to our local papers and local control. That's fine, I think that's a good policy. But the problem is that uh, they don't leave it up to local control when it comes to selecting a president, and endorsing one, they don't leave it up to local control when it comes to the two nominees of the two political parties they don't leave it up to political control when they're talking about Laos. political parties. I don't leave it up to political control when they're talking about Laos. and only when it costs them money that they don't take a position. or only when it's inconvenient. And I certainly don't when it's inconvenient. And I certainly don't expect or and just say I'm you you know, you work for me go do something. Let me give you an example of how this could work. And perhaps it already does in

other fields, Lets just assume we had a fictitious city, named Mystic City and in this city. The largest employer the largest depositor of funds in banks, Barges depositor of them in banks. Largest buyer of. The largest seller of the largest Zircon, Now if I run a bank and this guy was my largest depositor and he walked in one day and he says "Hi Harry," see I'd be Harry, "you know its a strange thing, I didn't see any Negro tellers down there, we've upgraded them in employment in our plant, opened up new channels of employment for Negroes, and I've really decided that this position of 'leave this thing alone' is really immoral and also illegal, and I do think we ought to support the United States in its constitution. I just want to tell you about our new company policy, and uh that is our policy and I want to make another million dollar deposit here". [laughter]

uhh, I don't know if this sort of thing happens in business or otherwise, I don't know if the banks operate the way the depositors want them to, the way the larger stockholder decides it ought to be done, but I do know this, that the possession of power, that the possession of it I do know that the. that is a policy of approval of what goes on. So my answer to you is no. [pause] uh Bill. [Different speaker] I'd just like to nail something down with respect to that in the controversy that the president of what was it Zirkon? Has had a [Morgan] I read that in a comic book someplace I think, "buy you a Zircon ring." [Audience memeber] that he had a letter in the New York Times uh defending himself from the attacks subsequent to his press conference, physically and in this letter he indicated that the responsible executives of the Zircon Corporation in Birmingham had played a very prominent role as individuals uhhhh with respect to the problem that they had contributed a great deal uh uh and exerted their influence not as representatives of the Zurcon Corporation, but as individual citizens in the community, I'd like to know how true this is? [Morgan] Well of course if they say it, it must be true uhh

They would know more about what they've done than I would, but I've just never seen them involved. Yes, They're But I've just never seen them involved. Yet they're very involved. And uhh-- [laughter] About twelve months ago I think they would have desegregated their file card system. uhh Which is. You know to each his own. yeah. [Audience Member] What about uh [unintelligibile] send out circulars to stockholders of uh [unintelligible] for instance they you know uhh [unintelligible] some states would that be something thats very foolish [unintellgible] [Morgan] Well

I don't know how you would move a company like that, really. I think there are a million ways to do it. One way is to talk about it. Another way is to uhh perhaps that, we could all agree not to buy steel next year or next year or buy Zircon next year. Of course we'd give up our automobiles and give up everything else. [Questioner, unintellible] [Morgan] Well see most of the stockholders are just people and they're the same people I'm talking about. They haven't made any decisions themselves, they may own stock in 50 other companies.

They have no sense of personal commitment to the struggle. [audience member] Yeah I mean if you could arouse their trust but something like that I don't know, it sounds wild and absurd-- [Morgan] I still think, I think the problem is to get the to get the great ultra middle-- I think the problem is to get the great middle of of America to move a little bit, and if that's the way to do it, then that would be a good way. Before you Bob, that was a tough one. [Unintelligble Question from audience member] [Questioner] --most people's emotional commitment to their stock ownership and the dividend check and the announcement of the annual meeting is almost invariably done the week [inaudible] [Morgan] Is that a statement or a question? [audience member] Statement. [Morgan] Alright, statement, do you want to put a question mark behind it? [audience member] Uh do you think, I mean, what would be your recommendation for uh a uh the most effective and direct confrontation by massive tenure US fields [unintelligible] How do you organize this? [Morgan] Well see I'm not really sure you do, let me go back with your statement first,

I don't assume, first of all, that most people who own stock, that their interest in this country I don't assume first of all that most people own stock. But their interest in this country or their interest happen not just to be stockholders, they may also be a member of the Rotary Club. And they also go to church on Sunday. They may be members of the labor union. They've got many different tugs and many different ties to them, and they're not in any one category of people. They're. They're just people. And how do you move those people? The same way you move any other people. And if we knew that, then we'd have a problem solved. [audience member] Yeah but the uh [unintelligible] society, corporations uh with thousands of stockholders democratically run and uh most [Morgan] labor unions with [Questioner] --difficult to organize stockholders in any kind of movement, say can you think of more likely methods of mobilizing opinion, of course, [unintelligible] yeah. [Morgan] You mean more likely than what he said about circularizing stockholders? Well I would think that uh mobilizing the churches would have a great deal to do with it

[audience member] Churches where? [Morgan] Churches everywhere. Yeah Bob. [Bob] Uh this is a very interesting problem, and I think the basic worth of meetings such as this is to come up with ideas about what people like us can do, now uh first of all we're sitting here at Brandeis, and anyody can look at the campus and know there's money around somewhere, ya know? There's some money involved somehow at Brandeis, but I don't know how it got here, and who's got it-- [Different Speaker] Or how it's saved. [Audience member] Yeah. One of the ways that you can do and take the US deal, one thing, each person who owns any stock in that is an owner of the company, and therefore you have something to say theoretically, about how the company is run, so if anyone really wants to do that, if they own the stock, or if they knew someone who owns the stock, this person could go to the stockholders meeting and say 'I would like to make a statement and its about this company' and so therefore it would be 2 choices with the board of directors, the board of directors would have 2 choices, squash this guy, go and let him speak, now in the meantime, like some other people I know, when you're applying for banks up the Washington Post, the New York Times and every other newspaper that you have a friend on in the country, you say, 'here's what I'm going to do on such and such a date, maybe you're interested in that' and you go and do the rights person especially if you own much stock in US deal you get the reporters there, or at least you talk them into coming out, and this is just one way to embarrass the company, one little way

[unintelligible] and people listen and your one vote means nothing, but the stink people make about it means alot. Now let me tell you one more, I'm starting off with Brandeis, let me come back, now since theres money here somewhere, and I would imagine that some of the money represented in these walls, are also represented in some quite big powerful companies in the United States and maybe we can find out where that money is and who has it. Now every building has a name on it [unintelligible] [laughter] and so forth but probably we might find-- [Different Speaker] Fruit of the Loom, I'm wearing them [audience member] Fruit of the Loom. [Morgan] Better watch that, that's dangerous [laughter] [laughter] [Speaker] Have you checked their policy? [laughter]

[laughter] [unintelligible] [laughter] [audience member] If they have some connection with say Band River Mills in Virginia. [Different speaker] River Mills actually. [Morgan] I think you've demonstrated aptly, the elasticity of the remedy [laughter] [Audience Member] So maybe demonstrations won't do it but maybe Fruit of the Loom, Goldfarb, Brandeis and anyone else who knows these people will cooperate, corporations will have some leverage there. [Morgan] Yeah. [New Audience Member] Uh your [sound of crashing] seems to be that one somehow needs to move the open mill, I agree with that umm, I wonder you can think of some recent events or recent events in American history that would make you optimistic about moving the open mill. [Morgan] Well, the depression. [Audience member] We have to go through something like that

[Morgan] Well I certainly hope we don't. [coughing] Well I certainly hope we don't. sanctions., it has sanctions as to what people talk about. uh uh It has sanctions with respect to uh style and uh what is the thing to do and that's what people do, is what the thing to do is. But is the thing to do and that's what people do is what the thing to do is. much en masse. The. I have hope that it will move. Sure, I think it has all through American history. I think you have a lot of differences now between this struggle now. And a hundred years ago. A hundred years ago it was William Lloyd struggle now. And a hundred years ago. A hundred years ago William Lloyd Garrison our. Dear. Now you see the white people aren't the ones who are leading the movement for someone else's rights, its Negroes fighting for their own rights,

Which is as it should be of course. But the white community has not developed the leadership that it needs. Strangely enough white people are somehow going to have to talk to white people. And as this develops and as this moves I think there is a moral conscience to this country and I think. Maybe this is just pollyannaish, but I think it's. moral conscience to this country and I think. That maybe this is just Pollyanna age but I think it's. A quite different from some other nations where they. country. For instance, regardless of the struggles we're going through now, we know the thesis of American life is equal justice under law. We revere heroes that way. Lincoln was a great man not just because he presided over the civil war. I'm not a fair historian on that war, but I'm reasonably certain that perhaps this I'm not a parrot. Story on that wall but I'm reasonably certain that perhaps. This general think perhaps he could have. But we didn't build a memorial to Wilson.

because he presided over this nation in the world war. We haven't yet built one to Roosevelt. We did build one to Lincoln. We didn't build one to Jackson, but Lincoln you see was involved in his public pronouncements, in The Emancipation Proclamation and the Gettysburg Address and the second inaugural. He was always on the side of whatever the strange theme of this, the mystery of this country is, Which is the dream of equality for all men. Kennedy was too. And I think somehow this is what we have to capture in the entire American public, because if this translation between people and their heroes that exists and we do live in a Judeo-Christian between people and their heroes. Exists and we do live in a Judeo-Christian are the things that will eventually come to pass. How do you move the ultra middle? You show them what's right. Or the radical moderate, we could call him I guess. Yes.

[Audience Member] You said earlier that you heard a lot of talk in the south about revolution, what I was wondering is perhaps is that revolution authority [unintelligible] [Morgan] No I don't hear it in the south, I don't hear talk in the south about revolution, I keep reading in the newspapers where I am hearing this that I am here talking about the revolution I keep reading in the newspapers. That's what I mean, I'm not-- [Audience member, unintelligible] uh What do you hear about secesion, secession, What do you hear about it? [Morgan] What about secession? nothing [Audience member] becuse we've also seen [unintelligible] from federal authority [Morgan] But we don't call it secession, we call it state's rights. [audience member] Ok state's rights. [Morgan] We hear a lot about that. [audience member] Do you think we'll ever come to a head? [Morgan] Come to a head, no uh-uh. [audience member] You don't feel the south will act... [Morgan] No I pulled her along for you one time talking to Leander H. Perez, as I recall, he was on the floor of the house and he says

'Hell what'cha gonna do now Leander, now that the feds got the H bomb?' [laughter] [laughter] uhh its not going to come to a head, its come to a head several, came to a head at Little Rock, it came to a head at Oxford, came I'm. Not going to come to him. It's come to I had several came to an end of Little Rock came to a head in Oxford came to an end of. University of Alabama comes to hand every now and then but it just sort of like a pebble [Audience Member] unintelligible another tactic clears throat, [unintelligible] situation when he said that in an announcement to the legislature, he said 'hell niggers is people too.' [Morgan] That's right, and one more thing you see the south produces a great number of liberals, you don't, the leaders you find in the And one more thing you see the South produces a great number of liberal you don't. The leaders you find in the And even there now, come from the south.

It's not the New Englanders that are leading this struggle, look at the list of your speakers you've had. Its James Silver from Ole Miss, and me from Birmingham and ?Harts Peele? from Atlanta and it could have been Ralph McGill Where are you northerners? Yes. [Audience Member] They say I believe [unintelligible] has 15 negro families What in your opinion ought to be something that I as a citizen of the community be able to do? in regards to civil rights? [Morgan] Well, where do those 15 families live? I mean are they [Audience Member] I don't know [Morgan] Well we could start there [laughter] [unintelligible]

[Morgan] uhh I don't really know, you see you you're asking me to translate myself into your and your particular situation I'm not sure that anybody can do that for anybody else even though we all do it constantly. uh The first thing you can as a citizen, you can vote right. The 2nd thing you can do is you can bring up the subject wherever you are. You can talk in terms of what has to be done in this nation which is the assurance of equal opportunity for men under the law. Now. Nobody has a right, you see the difference. There is a difference between desegregation and integration. There is a difference between. And this is another difficulty between the north and the south, and a difference in the problems. In the south the Negro is struggling to get rid of race as a standard. The Supreme Court said in '54 that race is not a permissible standard under the 14th Amendment. So in the south, the Negroes are merely trying to eradicate laws which require segregation. There will be steps beyond this, but this is where they are now. In the north in many cities. The civil rights movement takes the form of

attempting to write in Rules based upon race. And when you speak of integration you speak of an affirmative act. Let me give an example of the transportation of children from school district to school district. This is the utilization of race as a standard because in order to achieve a balance, you have to count to see what the ratio is. Back to count. What the ratio is. you've got to-- and then I Think and then I think you've got to sit down and sort of do a critical examination of yourself and where your realm of influence is and where your role is. What power have you got as a citizen? You see everybody has power. [Audience Member] How? [Morgan] I was interested in Oswald, now the two things I don't want to get involved in by the way, if I can help it tonight. You could [unintelligible] [laughter] I don't mind saying that, just cut it out.

One of them is I don't want to get involved in another attack on U.S. Steel because I've done this once and we've kept them going pretty good, I want to do it in What I mean is I don't want to get involved in another attack on U.S. Steel because I've done this once and we've kept them going pretty probably a company in America and would probably end up suing me for slander, and you all for libel [laughter] [audience member] It doesn't [unintelligible] [Morgan] Does it really? Well see what I mean. So I don't want to talk about US Steel or Zircon or the 'will you kiss me in the dark Well I see what I mean. So I don't want us to be whores or con or the way you kiss me Uhh [pause] And then find I don't want to talk about here. I noticed right after television, two things that uh disturbed me. [pause] Well [audience member] on the radio mode use that [unintelligible] [Morgan] Then alright there's a place you start, with the realtors. Now I've always thought the realtors got licenses from the state. They do most places, or from the city, and there are a myriads of ways to enact laws with respect to people who have licenses of doing business.

And uh if it were the thing to do, the realtor would do it, and the man who says I don't want a negro living next to me has got no place in this world because you see it's somebody else's property and if you believe in property rights. And if you believe in the property. anybody you want to. [Audience Member] Its definitely against the law in Massachusetts.any way for the realtor to do any kind of indictments of the person buying the house. [inaudible] [Morgan] Well if its against the law, one of the better ways, one of the ways they do in the south Own. put them in jail, I mean thats what laws are for, its enforcement. Yeah. [Audience Member] I just want to say a little more about what happened [inaudible] that they were going to work together, who knows what happened [inauudible] [Morgan] Well there's 2 answers to that, Get a commission thats not slow 2nd is, have laws enacted that wil enable you to take [inaudible] and 3rd is, if there are laws there, see I'm I'm

a lawyer, so I'm a beliver in law, uh I think that this is the way the community should exercise themselves if they can, if they can't then they have to do something else, but all too often the legal remedies are not exhausted, now and when I talk exhausted, I'm talking about a 10 year course of events Legal way to remedy it are not a god. I'm appalled when I talk about example of how about a pain here And there's a real tendency to oversimplify, you know. I mean I walk in someplace and somebody doesn't want to serve me and I immediately say they hate blonde whites, blonde fat whites, blonde heavy whites, thats what I mean. [laughter] And then I go out and conduct my own private On the back quite fond of Hemingway. And I go out and but uh, I think above all else this movement has got to be responsible. When it loses its responsibility, it will lose its moral tenor and it will lose whatever code of acceptance its got with respect to people

and I don't think it matters that uh Their cool big step and it's got to respect the people. I don't think it 'Shall Negroes go to school with white children' and the people say, and the majority-- [tape roll out[]