PBS NewsHour; December 7, 2021, 3:00pm-4:00pm PST

- Captioning sponsored by - NEWSHOUR PRODUCTIONS, LLC - >> Woodruff: GOOD EVENING. - I'M JUDY WOODRUFF. - ON THE NEWSHOUR TONIGHT: - TENSE TALKS. - PRESIDENT BIDEN HOLDS A - VIRTUAL MEETING WITH - VLADIMIR PUTIN, AMID - RISING FEARS OVER A POTENTIAL - RUSSIAN INVASION OF UKRAINE. - THEN, INVESTIGATING THE - INSURRECTION. - THE INQUIRY INTO THE JANUARY 6 - ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL - INTENSIFIES AS MORE TRUMP - OFFICIALS REFUSE TO COOPERATE. - AND, A HISTORY OF - DISCRIMINATION. - MANY BLACK FARMERS STILL - STRUGGLE TO RECEIVE COMPENSATION - AFTER BEING EXCLUDED FROM - FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AGRICULTURE - PROGRAMS. - >> WE WEREN'T ABLE TO PASS ON - WEALTH, WE WEREN'T ABLE TO PASS - ON A FARM. - AND SO, TO LOOK AT IT AND SAY, - "NOW, YOUR FIELD IS LEVEL?" - NO! - >> Woodruff: ALL THAT AND MORE, - ON TONIGHT'S PBS NEWSHOUR. - >> MAJOR FUNDING FOR THE PBS

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- FOSTERING INFORMED AND ENGAGED - COMMUNITIES. - MORE AT KF.org. - >> AND WITH THE ONGOING SUPPORT - OF THESE INSTITUTIONS: - AND INDIVIDUALS. - >> THIS PROGRAM WAS MADE - POSSIBLE BY THE CORPORATION FOR - PUBLIC BROADCASTING. - AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS - STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU. - THANK YOU. - >> Woodruff: PRESIDENT BIDEN - HAS PUT RUSSIAN PRESIDENT - VLADIMIR PUTIN ON NOTICE - TONIGHT, THAT THE U.S. WILL - IMPOSE STRONG NEW SANCTIONS IF - RUSSIA INVADES UKRAINE. - THE TWO MEN HELD A TWO-HOUR - VIRTUAL SUMMIT TODAY.

- IT CAME AS RUSSIAN TROOPS HAVE - BEEN BUILDING UP ALONG THE - UKRAINIAN BORDER. - WE WILL FOCUS ON THAT - HIGH-STAKES MEETING, RIGHT AFTER - THE NEWS SUMMARY. - CHINA ISSUED ITS OWN WARNING - TODAY-- THAT THE U.S. WILL - "PAY A PRICE" FOR A DIPLOMATIC - BOYCOTT OF THE WINTER OLYMPICS - IN BEIJING. - THE CHINESE GAVE NO SPECIFICS, - BUT THEY SAID THE MOVE VIOLATES - THE OLYMPIC SPIRIT, AND THAT - THERE COULD BE FALLOUT. - >> ( translated ): THE UNITED - STATES SHOULD STOP BRINGING - POLITICS INTO SPORTS, AND STOP - INTERFERING IN THE BEIJING - WINTER OLYMPICS WITH HURTFUL - WORDS AND ACTIONS. - OTHERWISE, IT COULD HARM - A SERIES OF IMPORTANT - BILATERAL DIALOGUES AND - COOPERATION FOR INTERNATIONAL - AND REGIONAL ISSUES. - >> Woodruff: UNDER THE BOYCOTT, - U.S. OFFICIALS WILL NOT - ATTEND THE GAMES IN FEBRUARY, - BUT AMERICAN ATHLETES WILL - STILL COMPETE. - THERE IS WORD THAT FRENCH - AUTHORITIES HAVE ARRESTED - ONE OF THE SUSPECTED KILLERS - OF SAUDI ARABIAN JOURNALIST - JAMAL KHASHOGGI.CCNTS TODAY SAYA - FORMER MEMBER OF THE SAUDI - ROYAL GUARD WAS DETAINED AT AN

- AIRPORT NEAR PARIS. - IT'S BELIEVED THAT KHASHOGGI WAS - MURDERED AT THE SAUDI CONSULATE - IN ISTANBUL, TURKEY IN 2018. - THE U.S. HOUSE OF - REPRESENTATIVES MOVED THIS - EVENING TO CLEAR THE WAY FOR - RAISING THE NATIONAL DEBT - CEILING. - THE LEGISLATION PROVIDES FOR A - SIMPLE MAJORITY VOTE IN THE - EVENLY-DIVIDED SENATE ON - RAISING THE GOVERNMENT'S - BORROWING LIMIT. - SENATE LEADERS IN BOTH PARTIES - AGREED ON THE NEED TO ACT, TO - PREVENT A NATIONAL DEFAULT. - >> WE WANT A SIMPLE MAJORITY, - WITHOUT A CONVOLUTED, RISKY, - LENGTHY PROCESS, AND IT LOOKS - LIKE THE REPUBLICANS WILL HELP - US FACILITATE THAT. - SO WE FEEL VERY GOOD ABOUT WHERE - WE ARE HEADED ON DEBT CEILING. - IT'S NOT DONE TILL IT'S DONE, - BUT THE IDEA OF LETTING - DEMOCRATS CARRY IT OURSELVES IS - WHAT WE'VE ALWAYS SAID. - >> I BELIEVE WE'VE REACHED HERE - A SOLUTION TO THE DEBT CEILING - ISSUE THAT'S CONSISTENT WITH - REPUBLICAN VIEWS OF RAISING THE - DEBT CEILING, FOR THIS AMOUNT,

- AT THIS PARTICULAR TIME, AND - ALLOWS THE DEMOCRATS TO PROUDLY - OWN IT, WHICH THEY ARE HAPPY TO - DO. - >> Woodruff: AND WE'LL GET MORE - OF THE DETAILS ON THIS, LATER IN - THE PROGRAM. - FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE - CHIEF OF STAFF MARK MEADOWS - HAS REVERSED HIMSELF AND NOW - SAYS HE WILL NOT GIVE TESTIMONY - ABOUT THE U.S. CAPITOL ASSAULT - LAST JANUARY. - HIS ATTORNEY COMPLAINS THAT A - CONGRESSIONAL PANEL WANTS TO - ASK ABOUT MATTERS COVERED BY - MR. TRUMP'S CLAIM OF EXECUTIVE - PRIVILEGE. - HAWAII IS UNDER A STATE OF - EMERGENCY, AS A MAJOR STORM - STALLS OVER THE ISLANDS, DUMPING - MORE THAN A FOOT OF RAIN AND - TOUCHING OFF FLOODS. - THE RAIN HAS POURED DOWN CLIFFS - ONTO HIGHWAYS, AND CREWS HAVE - LABORED TO RESTORE POWER KNOCKED - OUT BY 50-MILE-AN-HOUR WINDS. - STILL, PEARL HARBOR TODAY MARKED - THE 80th ANNIVERSARY OF THE - JAPANESE ATTACK THAT BROUGHT THE - U.S. INTO WORLD WAR II. - ABOUT 30 ELDERLY SURVIVORS - ATTENDED. - ROHINGYA REFUGEES FROM MYANMAR - ARE SUING FACEBOOK'S PARENT

- COMPANY, META, FOR MORE THAN - $150 BILLION. - THE SUIT WAS FILED IN - CALIFORNIA. - IT ALLEGES THAT POSTS ON - FACEBOOK INCITED VIOLENCE - AGAINST THE MUSLIM ROHINGYAS IN - MOSTLY-BUDDHIST MYANMAR. - A MAJOR OUTAGE AT AMAZON WEB - SERVICES DISRUPTED ACCESS TO A - NUMBER OF SITES TODAY. - THE PROBLEM WAS MAINLY FOCUSED - ON CLOUD COMPUTING SERVICES IN - THE EASTERN U.S. - IT AFFECTED EVERYTHING FROM - DELTA AIR LINES, TO NETFLIX, TO - THE ASSOCIATED PRESS. - WORKERS AT KELLOGG CEREAL PLANTS - HAVE REJECTED A FIVE-YEAR - CONTRACT. - THAT ANNOUNCEMENT TODAY MEANS - A TWO-MONTH STRIKE CONTINUES. - THE COMPANY SAYS IT WILL NOW - HIRE PERMANENT REPLACEMENT - WORKERS. - ON WALL STREET, STOCKS SURGED - AGAIN, LED BY TECH COMPANIES. - THE DOW JONES INDUSTRIAL AVERAGE - GAINED 492 POINTS TO CLOSE AT - 35,719. - THE NASDAQ ROSE 461 POINTS-- 3%. - THE S&P 500 JUMPED 2%. - AND, THE U.S. FORMALLY RETURNED - A 3,500-YEAR-OLD CLAY TABLET TO

- IRAQ TODAY, AFTER IT AND - THOUSANDS OF OTHER ANTIQUITIES - WERE LOOTED DURING THE - 1991 GULF WAR. - IT BEARS PART OF THE "EPIC OF - GILGAMESH," FROM THE ANCIENT - SUMERIAN CIVILIZATION. - THE ARTIFACT WAS PUT ON DISPLAY - IN BAGHDAD, AT THE FOREIGN - MINISTRY, ALONG WITH MANY OTHER - RETURNED TREASURES. - STILL TO COME ON THE NEWSHOUR: - A HAWAII MILITARY COMMUNITY - SEEKS ANSWERS ON HOW ITS WATER - WAS CONTAMINATED WITH PETROLEUM. - A NEW FILM DETAILS THE - DETENTION AND TORTURE OF AN - ALLEGED AL QAEDA MASTERMIND. - AND, MUCH MORE. - >> Woodruff: PRESIDENT BIDEN, - MEETING TODAY VIA

- VIDEOCONFERENCE WITH RUSSIAN - PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN, WAS - THE FOURTH TIME THE LEADERS HAVE - SPOKEN OR MET THIS YEAR. - RUSSIA NOW HAS MORE THAN 100,000 - TROOPS STATIONED ON THE BORDER - OF UKRAINE, AND MR. BIDEN GAVE - PUTIN A "CRYSTAL CLEAR" MESSAGE, - THAT IS ACCORDING TO WHITE HOUSE - AIDES, THAT RUSSIA FACES - SIGNIFICANT ECONOMIC REPRISALS - IF IT WERE TO INVADE. - HERE'S NICK SCHIFRIN. - >> GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN? - >> Reporter: IN A VIRTUAL - MEETING OVER A REAL LIFE - STANDOFF, PRESIDENT'S BIDEN AND - PUTIN STARTED WITH SMILES, BUT - JAKE SULLIVAN SAID BIDEN - DELIVERED A FIRM WARNING. - >> NO FINGER WAGGING BUT THE - PRESIDENT WAS CRYSTAL CAREER ON - WHERE THE UNITED STATES STANDS - ON THE ISSUES. - >> Reporter: SENIOR - CONGRESSIONAL OFFICIALS TELL - "PBS NEWSHOUR" THE - ADMINISTRATION IS THREATENING - ECONOMIC SANCTIONS INCLUDING - REMOVING RUSSIA FROM THE - INTERNATIONAL SWIFT BANKING - SYSTEM FREEZING RUSSIA'S ASSETS - AND BLOCKING INTERNATIONAL - TRANSACTIONS.

- THE U.S. HINTED ANY RUSSIAN - INVASION COULD THREATEN RUSSIA'S - IN ORDER STREAM TWO PIPELINE - DISIGNED TO DELIVER NATURAL GAS - TO EUROPE. - BIDEN TODAY TOLD PUTIN THE U.S. - WOULD INCREASE MILITARY SUPPORT - TO UKRAINE JUST AS UKRAINE - RECENTLY DEPLOYED HUNDREDS OF - AMERICAN MADE JAVELIN MISSILES - AND TURKISH MADE DRONES THAT CAN - TARGET RUSSIAN TANKS. - THE ADMINISTRATION ALSO SAID - PRESIDENT BIDEN TOLD PUTIN - N.A.T.O.'S EASTERN ALLIES WOULD - RECEIVE MORE U.S. TROOPS AND - TRAINING SIMILAR TO THESE 2016 - EXERCISES. - FOR WEEKS, RUSSIAN MILITARY - DRILLS AND REGULAR DEPLOYMENT - SIGNAL THEY'RE READY FOR - ESCALATION. - SATELLITE IMAGES SHOW A MASSIVE - BUILDUP ALONG THE - RUSSIAN-UKRAINE BORDER AND U.S. - INTELLIGENCE SHOWS A MAP OF FIVE - TACTICAL GROUPS NEAR UKRAINE, - TWO OFF THE UKRAINE'S EAST BORED - AND TWO MORE OFF THE SOUTHEAST - WHERE RUSSIA INVADED IN THE PAST

- AND ADDITIONAL TANKS IN CRIMEA - FOR A POTENTIAL OF 175,000 - FORCES. - INSIDE EASTERN UKRAINE, - RUSSIAN'S BACK SEPARATISTS - MAINTAIN CONTROL OF TERRORIST - AND VOW TO FIGHT FOR WORLD WAR I - STYLE TRENCHES. - PRESIDENT VA LEN SKI TRIED TO - REASSURE FRONT LINE TROOPS HE - HAS THEIR BACKS. - ZELENSKY SAID THE COUNTRY FACED - AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT FROM A - SINGLE ENEMY. - >> FREEDOM IS THE GREATEST VALUE - FOR US. - IT IS A SYMBOL OF OUR COUNTRY. - ALL OF UKRAINE, THE SERVICEMEN - OF THE ARMED FORCES OF UKRAINE - WHO CONTINUE TO FILL THE MOST - IMPORTANT MISSION TO DEFEND THE - FREEDOM AND SOVEREIGNTY OF THE - STATE FROM THE RUSSIAN - AGGRESSOR. - >> Reporter: THE KREMLIN SAID - TODAY PUTIN DEMANDED LEGALLY - FIXED GUARANTEES UKRAINE NEVER - HOIST U.S. MISSILES OR JOIN - N.A.T.O. AS HE SAID RECENTLY. - >> JUST LOOK HOW CLOSE TO - RUSSIAN BORDERS IS THE MILITARY - INFRASTRUCTURE OF THE - NORTH AMERICAN ALLIANCE. - WE TAKE IT MORE THAN SERIOUSLY.

- >> Reporter: TODAY SULLIVAN - SAID BIDEN REJECTS THAT REQUEST. - >> HE MADE NO SUCH COMMITMENTS - OR CONCESSIONS. - HE STANDS BY THE PROPOSITIONS - COUNTRIES SHOULD BE FREEL ABLE - TO CHOOSE WHO THEY ASSOCIATE - WITH. - >> Reporter: TO DETER RUSA, - LAST NIGHT AND TODAY CALLED - COUNTERPARTS IN THE UNITED - KINGDOM, FRANCE, GERMANY AND - ITALY, TO PRESENT A UNITED - FRONT. - >> JUST LIKE EVERYONE IN EUROPE - AND THE UNITED STATES WE ARE - WORRIED ABOUT THE TROOP - MOVEMENTS ON THE BORDER WITH - UKRAINE WHICH IS WHY IT MUST BE - ABSOLUTELY CLEAR IT WOULD BE AN - UNACCEPTABLE SITUATION IF - UKRAINE WAS THREATENED. - >> Reporter: WE TURN TO - VICTORIA NULAND, JOINING ME FROM - CAPITOL HILLY SHE WAS TESTIFYING - TODAY. - WELCOME BACK TO THE - "NEWSHOUR". - LET'S START BY TALKING ABOUT THE - PATH TO DIPLOMACY THAT - PRESIDENT BIDEN LAID OUT TODAY. - WHAT IS IS THE OFF RAMP THAT - PRESIDENT PUTIN WAS OFFERED? - >> AS YOU RECALL, WITH REGARD TO - RUSSIA'S INVASION OF EASTERN

- UKRAINE, THERE IS A SET OF - AGREEMENTS ON THE TABLE FOR - DEESCALATION CALLED THE MINSK - AGREEMENTS WHICH ESSENTIALLY - INVOLVES GIVING A SPECIAL STATUS - FOR DAN BASS, HAVING ELECTIONS - FOR RUSSIA PULLING OUT FORCES - AND RETURNING THE SOVEREIGN - BORDER TO UKRAINE. - SO THOSE TALKS WHICH WERE PRETTY - ACTIVE IN '15 AND '16 HAVE GONE - STEAL, SO THE U.S. IS OFFERING - TO PLAY A DIPLOMATIC ROLE IN - GETTING THOSE REINVIGORATED. - PRESIDENT PUTIN HAS CONCERNS HE - LIKES TO VOICE ABOUT THE ACTIONS - OF N.A.T.O. BEING DESTABILIZING - TO RUSSIA, WERE OBVIOUSLY - PREPARED AS THE PRESIDENT SAID - TO PRESIDENT PUTIN AND AS HIS - NATIONAL SECURITY SECURITY - ADVISOR SULLIVAN SAID PUBLICLY, - TO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH - RUSSIA ALONG WITH ALLIES AND - PARTNERS ABOUT ANY STRATEGIC - CONCERNS THAT THEY HAVE, BUT - TH'S A DIFFERENT MATTER THAN - WHETHER RUSSIA GETS A VETO OVER - UKRAINE'S FUTURE, WHICH IT DOES

- NOT. - >> Reporter: THE FIRST ASPECT - OF THAT, THE MINSK AGREEMENT - SIGNED IN 2015 AND 2014 CALLS ON - KIEV TO ALLOW OCCUPIED - TERRITORY, DONETSK AND W LUHANS, - SOME AUTONOMY. - WILL YOU PUSH KIEV TO FOLLOW - THROUGH ON THE PROMISES IT'S - MADE? - >> AGAIN, THESE WERE AGREEMENTS - ENTERED INTO BY BOTH UKRAINE AND - RUSSIA UNDER THE AUSPICES OF - FRANCE AND GERMANY, AND THEY - CALL FOR DONBASS TO BE - DEOCCUPIED FOR ALL TO HAVE THE - FOREIGN FORCES AND MERCENARIES - TO COME OUT AND FOR RUSSIA TO - RETURN CONTROL OF THE BORDER - AND, IN THE PROCESS, FOR UKRAINE - TO GRANT MORE SELF-GOVERNANCE TO - DONBASS. - NOW, SINCE THEN, UKRAINE HAS - OFFERED A HIGH DEGREE OF - SELF-GOVERNANCE TO ALL OF ITS - OTHER PROVINCES, SO DONBASS - WOULD IN EFFECT HAVE TO CATCH UP - AND THERE COULD CONCEIVABLY BE - SOME ADDITIONAL THINGS, BUT

- THOSE WOULD HAVE TO BE SUBJECT - TO NEGOTIATION, AND IT WOULD BE - KIEV'S SOVEREIGN DECISION WHAT - LEVEL OF SPECIAL STATUS TO OFFER - DONBASS. - >> Reporter: AND ON N.A.T.O. - WHICH YOU REFERRED TO, WHY NOT - CONSIDER PREVENTING UKRAINE FROM - JOINING N.A.T.O. SINCE THERE IS - NO MOMENTUM RIGHT NOW FOR - UKRAINE TO GAIN MEMBERSHIP? - >> FIRST OF ALL, THE N.A.T.O. - CHARTER SIGNED IN 1949 SAYS THAT - THE ALLIANCE IS OPEN TO ANY - EUROPEAN DEMOCRACY THAT CAN MEET - THE STANDARDS OF MEMBERSHIP. - FRANKLYSH THAT WOULD BE AN - OPTION FOR RUSSIA, TOO, IF IT - WERE TO CHANGE MANIFESTLY, WHICH - IT HAS NOT EXPRESSED AN INTEREST - IN DOING, BUT WE ARE NOT GOING - TO CHANGE N.A.T.O.'S OPEN DOOR - POLICY OR MORE THAN 70 YEARS OF - POLICY, AND WE ARE NOT GOING TO - GIVE RUSSIA A VETO OVER THE - ALLIANCES OF A SOVEREIGN - COUNTRY.

- WE ARE -- THOSE ARE DECISIONS - FOR UKRAINE TO MAKE AND FOR - N.A.T.O. TO MAKE, NOT FOR THE - KREMLIN TO MAKE. - >> Reporter: ARE YOU WILLING - TO PROVIDE GUARANTEES OR - ASSURANCES MISSILES WON'T BE - BASED ON UKRAINE AS THE KREMLIN - IS ASKING? - >> YOU KNOW, IN 1998 AND AGAIN - IN 2003, IN THE CONTEXT OF - N.A.T.O. NEGOTIATING ITS - PARTNERSHIP AGREEMENT WITH - RUSSIA AND THEN RENEWING IT - AGAIN, N.A.T.O. MADE CERTAIN - ASSURANCES THAT WE WOULD NOT - STATION SUBSTANTIAL COMBAT - FORCES ALONG RUSSIA'S BORDERS. - N.A.T.O. HAS LIVED UP TO THOSE - AGREEMENTS. - I CAN'T SAY RUSSIA HAS GIVED UP - TO ITS SIDE -- LIVED UP TO ITS - SIDE TO HAVE THE AGREEMENTS, BUT - THAT WOULD OBVIOUSLY CONTINUE TO - PERTAIN AS LONG AS RUSSIA WAS - PREPARED HONOR ITS SIDE OF THE - PACT. - >> Reporter: WE'VE TALKED - ABOUT CARROTS, LET'S TALK ABOUT - THE STICKS. - HOW SPECIFIC DID PRESIDENT BIDEN - GET TODAY IN THREATENING FURTHER - ACTION SUCH AS REMOVING RUSSIA - FROM THE SWIFT BANKING SYSTEM,

- FREEZING RUSSIAN BANK'S ASSETS - AND BLOCKING RUSSIAN BANKS' - ASSETS TO INTERNATIONAL MARKETS? - >> THE PRESIDENT WAS CRYSTAL - CLEAR ABOUT WHAT RUSSIA AND THE - KREMLIN WILL CONFRONT IF THEY - MOVE AGGRESSIVELY ON UKRAINE, - AGAIN, AND ABOUT THE IMPACT ON - THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY AND ON ITS - STATUS IN THE GLOBAL ECONOMIC - SYSTEM. - >> Reporter: ANOTHER ONE OF - THE STICKS YOU SAID TODAY THAT - GERMANY IS PREPARED TO "SUSPEND - NORTSTREAM2 IN THE INVASION. - THAT IS -- DO YOU THINK - PRESIDENT PUTIN CONSIDERS THAT - IMPORTANT ENOUGH? - >> IT IS VERY HARD TO IMAGINE - THAT IN THE CONTEXT OF RUSSIA - MOVING AGGRESSIVELY ON UKRAINE - THAT EUROPE WOULD WANT TO - INCREASE ITS DEPENDENCY ON - RUSSIAN ENERGY. - >> Reporter: ARE YOU - CONSIDERING TARGETING - PRESIDENT PUTIN'S PERSONAL

- ASSETS AND/OR HIS MOST SENIOR - ADVISORS? - >> I'M NOT GOING TO GET INTO - SPECIFICS HERE OR NEGOTIATE THIS - IN PUBLIC, NICK, BUT WE HAVE NOT - BEEN SHY IN THE PAST ABOUT OUR - SANCTIONS WITH REGARD TO FOCUS - CLOSE TO PRESIDENT PUTIN AND TO - THINGS THAT MATTER TO HIM. - >> Reporter: ON BOLSTERING - UKRAINE'S MILITARY, I'VE SPOKEN - TO SENIOR REPUBLICAN OFFICIALS - WHO SAY THE ADMINISTRATION ISN'T - MOVING FAST ENOUGH, SPECIFICALLY - ON THE DELIVERY OF WEAPONS. - SO CAN YOU BELIEVE YOU NEED TO - SEND MORE AND DO SO MORE - QUICKLY? - >> SO THIS YEAR ALONE, THE - UNITED STATES HAS PROVIDED MORE - THAN $450 MILLION IN SECURITY - ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE, AND WE - ARE OBVIOUSLY OPEN TO DOING MORE - IF THE SITUATION REQUIRES. - >> Reporter: AND DOES THAT - MEAN THAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS - COMMITTED TO INCREASING THE - SPEED WITH WHICH THOSE DEFENSIVE - WEAPONS WOULD BE DELIVERED? - >> AGAIN, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF - THINGS ALREADY DELIVERED TO - UKRAINE THAT THEY NEED TO BE

- THINKING ABOUT HOW TO USE IN THE - CONTEXT OF SELF-DEFENSE, AND WE - ARE TALKING TO THEM ABOUT THAT, - AND WE ARE OPEN TO OTHER THINGS - THAT THEY MAY NEED. - >> Reporter: AND FINALLY - TODAY, YOU SAID THIS, YOU SAID - THIS IS A MOMENT OF TESTING - AUTOCRATS AND OUR FRIENDS WILL - WATCH CLOSELY WHAT WE DO. - WHY IS THIS MOMENT SO IMPORTANT? - >> BECAUSE PRESIDENT PUTIN MAY - BE ASPIRING ONCE AGAIN TO CHANGE - GLOBAL GEOGRAPHY BY FORCE, TO - VIOLATE THE SOVEREIGNTY OF - INDEPENDENT -- OF AN INDEPENDENT - NATION. - AND IF THE DEMOCRACIES STAND BY - AND ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN, IT - WILL EMBOLDEN AUTOCRATS - EVERYWHERE. - >> VICTORIA NULAND, THANK YOU - VERY MUCH. - >> THANK YOU, NICK. - >> Woodruff: THE CLOCK HAS - BEEN TICKING ON THE NEXT - POTENTIAL FISCAL CRISIS FOR THE - U.S. GOVERNMENT. - THE NATION'S DEBT CEILING COULD - BE REACHED-- AND GOVERNMENT

- MIGHT NOT HAVE THE FUNDS TO PAY - ITS BILL-- AS SOON AS NEXT WEEK. - BUT AS WE REPORTED, TODAY, A - BREAKTHROUGH BETWEEN REPUBLICANS - AND DEMOCRATS MEANS THEY MAY - HAVE FOUND A WAY OUT. - FOR MORE ON THIS, I'M JOINED BY - OUR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT, - LISA DESJARDINS. - LISA, HERE WE GO AGAIN. - SO FOR A LONG TIME, FOR THE LAST - MANY MONTHS, THERE WAS A LOT OF - BITTER DIVISION OVER THIS ISSUE - OF THE DEBT CEILING. - WHAT'S HAPPENED? - >> THIS WAS THE PROBLEM A LOT OF - US ON CAPITOL HILL WERE THE MOST - WORRIED ABOUT I'M GOING TO TAKE - YOU THROUGH WHAT'S HAPPENED - TODAY AND I'M GOING TO START - FIRST WITH THE POLICY. - LET ME EXPLAIN. - IT'SEN UNUSUAL SOLUTION OUR - LEADERS HAVE COME UP WITH TODAY. - HERE'S WHAT THEY WANT TO DO. - FIRST CRAFT A BILL THAT WOULD - INCLUDE A BLOCK ON MEDICARE CUTS - THAT WOULD AUTOMATICALLY HAPPEN - WITHOUT CONGRESSIONAL ACTION - AND, WITH THAT, IT WOULD ALSO - CREATE ALMOST A NEW RULE - ALLOWING FOR A SIMPLE MAJORITY - IN THE SENATE TO PASS A DEBT - INCREASE. - THAT BILL IS NOW IN THE HOUSE. - WHAT WOULD HAPPEN NEXT IS THAT - PATH-CLEARING BILL, AS I CALL - IT, WOULD NEED TO GET 60 VOTES

- IN THE SENATE. - WE EXPECT THAT TO HAPPEN THIS - WEEK. - THAT WOULD THEN FREE UP THE - ABILITY OF THE SENATE TO PASS A - DEBT INCREASE WITH A SIMPLE - MAJORITY VOTE, AND IT WOULD BE A - POLITICAL WAY OF SAVING FACE FOR - EVERYONE, ESPECIALLY SENATE - MINORITY LEADER, THE REPUBLICAN - LEADER MITCH McCONNELL, WHO - YOU REMEMBER WELL, SAID - DEMOCRATS WILL HAVE TO DO THIS - ON THEIR OWN, WE WILL T HELP - THEM RAISE THE DEBT CEILING. - AND HE SAID HE WANTED THEM TO DO - THIS THROUGH RECONCILIATION. - DEMOCRATS SAY IT'S A REVERSAL ON - HIS PART. - IT'S AT LEAST A FIVE-POINT TURN. - POLITICS WERE ON DEMOCRATS' - SIDE. - THEY STUCK IT OUT TOGETHER. - CHUCK SCHUMER HAD HIS FIRST - STAREDOWN WITH SENATOR McONLY - OVER THIS AND PULLED OUT A WIN. - I ALSO WANT TO TALK A LITTLE BIT - ABOUT HOW THIS ACTUALLY CAME - ABOUT BECAUSE YOU AND I HAVE - TALKED SO MANY NIGHTS ABOUT ALL - THE GAME CLOCK, FIFTY -- - GRIDLOCK, 5050 SENATE. - THE SENATORS CHUCK SCHUMER AND

- McDONALD TALKED TO EACH OTHER - AND SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER SAID - SENATOR MCCONNELL BOXED HIMSELF - IN. - THE REPUBLICANS WERE VERY - UNHAPPY. - THEY WANTED A SHOWDOWN. - THEY THINK THE DEBT CEILING WAS - ONE OF THE FEW PIECES OF LEG - THEY COULD USE TO HAVE SPENDING - CAPS OR MAKE A BIGGER STATEMENT. - THEY THINK THIS WAS A MISTAKE - BUT NOW SENATOR MCCONNELL HAS TO - GET TEN REPUBLICANS TO VOTE WITH - HIM TO CLEAR THE PATH FOR THIS - DEBT CEILING. - WE'LL WATCH THAT CLOSELY. - IT FEELS LIKELY HE WILL GET - THOSE VOTES. - I EXPECT HIM TO BE ONE OF THEM. - >> Woodruff: VERY VERY - INTERESTING WHAT IS TAKING - PLACE. - THE ICE SEEMS TO BE CRACKING. - >> Reporter: THAT'S RIGHT. - FOR NOW OUR LAWMAKERS ARE - SPEAKING WITH EACH OTHER ANT - IMPORTANT THINGS. - THAT IS GOOD. - >> Woodruff: LISA DESJARDINS, - THANK YOU ONCE AGAIN. - >> Reporter: YOU'RE WELCOME. - ? - >> Woodruff: ALSO AT THE - CAPITOL, NEW HEADWINDS FOR - THE SELECT COMMITTEE IN THE - HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES CHARGED - WITH INVESTIGATING JANUARY 6. - IT HAS BEEN 11 MONTHS SINCE - THE ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL, - AND SINCE THEN, THE HOUSE - COMMITTEE HAS ISSUED MORE THAN

- 40 SUBPOENAS. - A NUMBER OF THOSE SUBPOENAS ARE - AIMED AT FORMER TRUMP - ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS AND - ALLIES. - AND TODAY, WE GOT NEW DETAILS - ABOUT WHO IS COOPERATING, AND - WHO IS FIGHTING BACK. - JOSH GERSTEIN JOINS ME NOW TO - BRING US UP TO SPEED. - HE IS THE SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS - REPORTER FOR POLITICO. - JOSH GERSTEIN, THANK YOU VERY - MUCH FOR BEING WITH US AGAIN. - I THINK THE MAIN INFORMATION WE - GOT TODAY HAS TO DO WITH MARK - MEADOWS, THE FORMER WHITE HOUSE - CHIEF OF STAFF TO FORMER - PRESIDENT TRUMP. - AFTER INITIALLY SAYING HE - WOULDN'T COOPERATE, THEN LAST - WEEK HE SAID HE WOULD, NOW AGAIN - HE IS SAYING HE WILL NOT - COOPERATE, NOT IN A LIVE - INTERVIEW. - WHAT'S THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS? - >> WELL, IT'S DEFINITELY A - SETBACK FOR THE COMMITTEE - BECAUSE THE FACT THAT MEADOWS - HAD AGREED TO COOPERATE, AT - LEAST PARTIALLY COOPERATE, - SERVED AS A SIGNAL FOR PEOPLE - DOWN THE LINE FROM THE TRUMP - WHITE HOUSE AND IN THE TRUMP - ORBIT THAT MAYBE IT WOULD BE - OKAY TO COOPERATE WITH THE - COMMITTEE, THERE WOULD BE NO

- TERRIBLE REPERCUSSIONS. - BUT THEN, REALLY, WITHIN A - MATTER OF DAYS, TO HAVE MEADOWS - REVERSE HIMSELF AND SAY HE - WOULDN'T TESTIFY, IT'S A PROBLEM - FOR THE COMMITTEE BECAUSE PEOPLE - ARE LOOKING FOR SIGNALS BY - INDICTING STEVE BANNON FOR NOT - COOPERATING. - THE COMMITTEE WAS HOPING TO SEND - A SIGNAL AND NOW THEY'VE GOT - SORT OF A CONFUSING SET OF - MESSAGES GOING OUT TO POTENTIAL - WITNESSES. - >> Woodruff: WHAT DO YOU MAKE - OF WHAT HIS ATTORNEY IS SAYING? - AMONG OTHER THINGS, HE'S SAYING - THE COMMITTEE DOESN'T APPEAR TO - ACCEPT FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S - ASSERTION OF EXECUTIVE - PRIVILEGE. - HE'S SAYING THE COMMITTEE IS - ASKING FOR WHAT HE CALLS - INTENSELY PERSONAL - COMMUNICATIONS? - >> YEAH, I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW - HOW MEADOWS' LAWYERS COULD BE - SURPRISED BY THE FACT THAT THE - COMMITTEE DOESN'T RESPECT FORMER - PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ASSERTION OF - EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE. - THEY'VE SAID AS MUCH AND THEY'VE - GONE TO COURT TO ESSENTIALLY - FIGHT BACK AGAINST THAT - PRIVILEGE.

- SO I'M NOT REALLY SURPRISED BY - THAT. - I THINK WHAT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED - HERE IS A CHANGE OF HEART ON - MEADOWS PARTY, YOU KNOW, WHEN HE - DECIDED TO COOPERATE, IT WAS - PRETTY CLEAR TRUMP WAS NOT HAPPY - WITH THAT DECISION AND THEN WE - HAD SOME CONFLICT BETWEEN THEM - ABOUT MEADOWS BOOK THAT RECENTLY - CAME OUT AND UNFLATTERING - STORIES ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP - THAT ARE IN THERE AND IN - PARTICULAR HIS HANDLING OF HIS - COVID DIAGNOSIS DURING LAST - YEAR'S POLITICAL CAMPAIGN - SEASON. - IT WOULDN'T SURPRISE ME THAT - MEADOWS SAID INACT THERE'S NO - WAY TO COOPERATE WITH THE - COMMITTEE AND REMAIN IN TRUMP'S - GOOD GRACES AND NOW HE'S LOOKING - FOR A REASON TO DO AN ABOUT - FACE. - >> Woodruff:IS ATTORNEY IS - SAYING HE MAY BE PREPARED TO - ANSWER QUESTIONS IN WRITING, AND - POTENTIALLY PROVIDE DOCUMENTS. - HE'S ALREADY PROVIDED SOME. - WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? - HOW DIFFERENT WOULD IT BE IF - HE'S SAYING I'LL ANSWER - QUESTIONS IN WRITING VERSUS - DOING IT IN PERSON? - >> I THINK IT WOULD BE VERY - DIFFERENT AND I WOULD BE

- SURPRISED TO SEE THE COMMITTEE - TAKE HIM UP ON THAT OPTION. - GENERALLY, INVESTIGATORS LIKE TO - HAVE A LIVE WITNESS IN FRONT OF - THEM AND TO BE ABLE TO GO BACK - AND FORTH AND DO FOLLOW-UP. - WHAT USUALLY COMES OUT, IF YOU - HAVE WRITTEN QUESTIONS, IS - ACTUALLY THE PERSON'S ATTORNEYS' - RESPONSE TO THE QUESTIONS RATHER - THAN THE PERSON THEMSELVES AND - OFTENTIMES SORT OF ALL THE - DETAIL AND ANYTHING THAT MIGHT - IN FACT BE INTERESTING IS KIND - OF IRONED OUT OF THE STAMENT - BEFORE IT MAKES IT TO THE - COMMITTEE. - LIKE I SAID, I WOULD BE - SURPRISED IF THEY THOUGHT THAT - WAS AN ADEQUATE SUBSTITUTE FOR - BEING IN-PERSON LIVE TESTIMONY. - >> Woodruff: JOSH GERSTEIN, - WHAT DO WE KNOW IF ANYTHING - ABOUT THE DOCUMENTS HE HAS - ALREADY TURNED OVER AND WHAT - MORE THE COMMITTEE WANTS IN THE - WAY OF WRITTEN RECORDS? - >> WELL, IT'S A LITTLE BIT - UNCLEAR BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE - COMMITTEE IS TRYING TO ALSO GET - TRUMP WHITE HOUSE RECORDS - DIRECTLY FROM THE NATIONAL - ARCHIVES THAT HAS CUSTODY OF - THOSE RECORDS AND, IN FACT, ONE - OF THE COMPLAINTS MEADOWS - LAWYERS HAS PUT FORWARD ABOUT - WHY THEY NO LONGER THINK HE - SHOULD BE TESTIFYING IS THAT - THERE'S BEEN AN EFFORT TO SECURE

- MEADOWS-PHONE RECORDS DIRECTLY - FROM TELEPHONE COMPANIES. - THERE MAY HAVE BEEN EFFORTS TO - SECURE PEOPLE'S EMAIL RECORDS OR - OTHER FORMS OF CORNS, - CORRESPONDENCE AND THAT'S ONE TO - HAVE THE EXPLANATIONS THEY'RE - GIVING ABOUT WHY THEY DON'T WANT - TO OPERATE. - I THINK THEY COULD BE SURPRISED - AT A POTENTIAL DEPOSITION ABOUT - THINGS THEY HAVEN'T SEEN OR - HAVEN'T EXPECTED. - SO I'M CURIOUS ABOUT HOW THAT - WILL EVENTUALLY BE RESOLVED. - I THINK THE SIMPLEST WAY WOULD - BE FOR HIM TO TRY NOT TO TESTIFY - BUT, OF COURSE, THAT RISKS - CRIMINAL PROSECUTION JUST LIKE - STEVE BANNON IS CURRENTLY BEING - PROSECUTED. - >> Woodruff: HAS THE - COMMITTEE'S RECOURSE, THAT IS - SOMETHING THEY CAN DO IF THEY - CHOOSE. - WE RECEIVE WORD TODAY THAT THE - FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE - PENCE'S CHIEF OF STAFF MARK - SHORT IS SAYING THAT HE WILL - COOPERATE WITH THE COMMITTEE AND - HOW DO YOU READ THAT? - >> WELL, YOU KNOW, MARK SHORT, I - PUT IN A SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT - CATEGORY FROM A LOT OF OTHER - TRUMP OFFICIALS.

- HE WAS ALREADY SOMEONE THAT HAD - BEEN CRITICAL OF - PRESIDENT TRUMP'S RESPONSE TO - THE EVENTS ON JANUARY 6th. - HE IS SOMEONE SEEN MORE AS BEING - IN VICE PRESIDENT PENCE'S CAMP. - THE FACT HE WOULD COOPERATE - WON'T REALLY BE TAKEN AS A - SIGNAL BY OTHER TRUMP ALLIES - THEY SHOULD GO ONE WAY TORE THE - OTHER. - I VIEW IT AS A UNIQUE - CIRCUMSTANCE AND GIVEN MARK - SHORT'S TRACK RECORD AND - POSITION AND ALLEGIANCES TO - PENCE, I'M NOT SURPRISED HE - WOULD STEP FORWARD AND SAY I - WILL COOPERATE WITH THE - COMMITTEE. - IN FACT, HE'S TOLD A LOT OF THIS - PUBLICLY ALREADY. - >> Woodruff: THAT'S A REMINDER - VICE PRESIDENT PENCE WAS THE - SUBJECT OF MUCH OF WHAT THE MOB - THAT ATTACKED THE CAPITOL WAS - THERE LOOKING FOR. - JOSH GERSTEIN WITH POLITICO, - THANK YOU VERY MUCH. - >> THANK YOU, JUDY. - TAKE CARE. - >> Woodruff: FOR DECADES, - BLACK FARMERS HAVE BEEN

- EXCLUDED FROM FEDERAL FARM - PROGRAMS, A SYSTEMATIC PATTERN - OF DISCRIMINATION THAT THE U.S. - DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE - ACKNOWLEDGED DECADES AGO. - YET, PROPOSALS TO COMPENSATE - FARMERS FOR PAST WRONGS HAVE - LANGUISHED IN CONTROVERSY AND - RED TAPE. - THE MOST RECENT INCLUDE THE - BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S EFFORTS - TO EARMARK SUCH FUNDS IN ITS - AMERICA RESCUE PLAN, AND NOW, - BUILD BACK BETTER. - SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT FRED DE - SAM LAZARO BEGINS HIS REPORT IN - NORTHWEST KANSAS, AS PART OF OUR - ONGOING SERIES, "RACE MATTERS." - >> Reporter: WALKING DOWN THIS - DIRT ROAD BRINGS BERNARD BATES - BACK TO THE HIGHEST-- AND - LOWEST-- POINTS OF HIS 84 YEARS. - THIS LAND BEHIND YOU GOES BACK - GENERATIONS IN YOUR FAMILY? - >> YES, MM-HMM. - IT GOES BACK TO SLAVERY IN THE - BEGINNING. - HOMESTEADED. - >> DAD WAS A GOOD FARMER. - THEY SAY THAT HE WAS ONE OF THE - BEST ONES IN GRAHAM COUNTY. - >> Reporter: DATING WAY BACK TO - THE '40s, KARLA BATES ADAMS SAYS - HER FATHER WAS A PROLIFIC

- PRODUCER HERE IN NICODEMUS, - KANSAS, A RARE ENCLAVE OF - BLACK FARMERS WHOSE ANCESTORS - SETTLED HERE AFTER THEY WERE - FREED FROM SLAVERY. - SO, THERE WAS MORE LAND-- YOU - NED DIFFERENT CHUNKS OF LAND? - >> 80 ACRES, AND THEN NORTH OF - THE CEMERY, THERE'S ANOTHER - 80 ACRES. - >> Reporter: IN THE EARLY 1980s, - AMID THE HISTORIC AGRICULTURAL - RECESSION AND CROP DISASTERS - THAT HIT THE MIDWEST, MANY - FARMERS FELL BEHIND ON THEIR - LOAN PAYMENTS, INCLUDING BERNARD - BATES. - >> BUGS, HAIL, WIND AND RAIN, - FREEZE, AND EVERYTHING. - THREE, FOUR YEARS IN A ROW. - >> Reporter: WHEN HE APPROACHED - THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF - AGRICULTURE FOR RELIEF, - KARLA BATES-ADAMS SAYS, - NOT FOR THE FIRST TIME, HE WAS - TREATED DIFFERENTLY. - >> WE KNOW THAT THE WHITE - FARMERS WERE GETTING THE - ASSISTANCE, AND THE BLACK - FARMERS WERE NOT. - >> THEY WERE GETTING ALL KINDS - OF LOANS. - >> Reporter: THE BATES THEN - WITNESSED-- AND EVEN - PHOTOGRAPHED-- THE DISMANTLING - OF THEIR LIVELIHOOD, IN - FORECLOSURE. - THAT MUST HAVE BEEN VERY PAINFUL - TO WITNESS.

- >> TELL ME ABOUT IT. - >> THEY TRULY TOOK OUR - LIVELIHOOD AND LEFT MY PARENTS - TO HAVE TO GO ON FOOD STAMPS. - >> Reporter: THEIR LAND WAS - SUBSEQUENTLY SOLD OFF, TO - WHITE FARMERS. - THE BATES FARMSTEAD IS AMONG - MILLIONS OF ACRES OF LAND - THAT BLACK FARMERS HAVE LOST - OVER THE DECADES. - IN THE 1920s, 14% OF ALL FARMERS - IN THE UNITED STATES WERE - AFRICAN AMERICAN. - THAT NUMBER IS DOWN TO LESS THAN - 1.5% TODAY. - >> THERE ARE MEN LIKE BERNARD - THAT WOULD STILL BE FARMING, - BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HE LOVES AND - THAT'S WHAT HE WANTED TO DO. - >> Reporter: NICODEMUS RESIDENT - JOHNELLA HOLMES IS A RETIRED - PROFESSOR, AND DIRECTOR OF THE - KANSAS BLACK FARMERS - ASSOCIATION. - FOR DECADES, SHE SAYS, THEY'VE - BEEN EXCLUDED FROM FEDERAL - AGRICULTURE PROGRAMS, LIKE - PRICE SUBSIDIES, DISASTER - RELIEF, AND ESPECIALLY LOANS, - THE FINANCIAL BACKBONE OF - AMERICAN AGRICULTURE. - >> THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY VITAL TO - THEIR SURVIVAL. - THE EQUIPMENT IS SO EXPENSIVE - ANYMORE THAT ONE SINGLE FARMER, - ESPECIALLY THE SMALL FARMERS,

- THEY CAN'T AFFORD THAT - EQUIPMENT. - >> Reporter: IN 1999, AND AGAIN - IN 2010, BLACK FARMERS WERE - OFFERED LIMITED COMPENSATION, - AFTER A CLASS ACTION SUIT. - BUT THE SETTLEMENT WAS MARRED BY - ALLEGATIONS OF FRAUDULENT CLAIMS - ON ONE HAND AND THE EXCLUSION OF - POSSIBLY THOUSANDS OF LEGITIMATE - CLAIMANTS ON THE OTHER. - BERNARD BATES WAS A PLAINTIFF. - >> I MYSELF HAVEN'T GOT ONE - DIME. - NOT A DIME. - >> Reporter: THE BIDEN - ADMINISTRATION HAS INCLUDED - SEVERAL BILLION DOLLARS IN - LOAN FORGIVENESS AND OTHER - RELIEF FOR DISTRESSED AND - DISADVANTAGED FARMERS IN ITS - BUILD BACK BETTER PLAN. - >> WE KNOW FOR A FACT THAT - SOCIALLY-DISADVANTAGED PRODUCERS - WERE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST BY - THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF - AGRICULTURE. - WE KNOW THIS. - >> Reporter: EARLIER THIS YEAR, - AGRICULTURE SECRETARY TOM - VILSACK UNVEILED A SIMILAR - $4 BILLION RELIEF PLAN FOR - MINORITY FARMERS, IN THE - AMERICAN RESCUE PLAN. - THAT TRIGGERED SEVERAL LAWSUITS - ON BEHALF OF WHITE FARMERS, - CLAIMING REVERSE DISCRIMINATION, - WHICH SUCCEEDED IN SUSPENDING

- THE PROGRAM, PENDING THE OUTCOME - OF THE LITIGATION. - >> IF-- IF A BLACK FARMER LIVED - ACROSS THE ROAD, AND THIS BILL - WENT THROUGH, I SEE HIM GET HIS - MORTGAGE PAID OFF. - IT TICKS ME OFF, BECAUSE THAT - WAS MONEY STOLEN FROM ME. - GIVEN TO HIM. - >> Reporter: JON STEVENS IS - A FIFTH-GENERATION FARMER IN - PINE COUNTY, MINNESOTA, AND IS A - WELL-KNOWN ADVOCATE OF THE - ENVIRONMENTALLY-FRIENDLIER - REGENERATIVE FARMING. - DO YOU THINK THAT DISCRIMINATION - EXISTS TODAY AGAINST BLACK - FARMERS? - >> AS A FEDERAL SYSTEM? - I WOULD SAY NO. - NOW, WHEN YOU GO TO YOUR LOCAL - OFFICE, SURE. - AND THAT WOULD GO ANYWAY, - WHETHER IT'S-- IT'S WHITE TO - BLACK; BLACK TO WHITE. - I, YEP. - THERE'S RACIST PEOPLE ALL OVER - THIS COUNTRY. - >> Reporter: WHAT ARE THESE - PLAINTIFFS NOT UNDERSTANDING? - >> OH, I THINK THEY UNDERSTAND, - I THINK THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO - ACKNOWLEDGE THE HISTORY. - >> Reporter: PROFESSOR HOLMES - SAYS THAT HISTORY OF - DISCRIMINATION HAS TAKEN AN - ENORMOUS TOLL ON BLACK FARM - FAMILIES THAT IS STILL FELT - TODAY. - >> WE WEREN'T ABLE TO PASS ON

- WEALTH. - WE WEREN'T ABLE TO PASS ON A - FARM. - AND SO, TO LOOK AT IT AND SAY, - "NOW, YOUR FIELD IS LEVEL"? - NO! - BERNARD BATES' FAMILY, WHERE-- - THEY WERE DENIED THE OPPORTUNITY - TO CONTINUE TO FARM. - THAT DIDN'T LEVEL THE FIELD. - >> Reporter: JON STEVENS SAYS - WHITE FARMERS ARE AS LIKELY - TODAY TO FACE REJECTION AT THE - U.S.D.A. OR AT PRIVATE LENDERS. - HE SAYS THE KEY IS TO PERSEVERE. - >> I DON'T WANT TO HEAR YOUR - VICTIM STORY. - SO WHAT IF I-- WHAT IF I - DISCRIMINATED AGAINST YOU ON - SOMETHING? - IS THAT GOING TO STOP YOU? - >> Reporter: IF YOU'RE THE - GOVERNMENT, POSSIBLY, OR YOU'RE - THE BANKER. - >> GO TO ANOTHER BANK. - JUST PICK YOUR BOOTSTRAPS UP AND - FORGET THE REST OF THE WORLD AND - DO WHAT YOU NEED TO DO. - >> WELL, I MADE MY OWN STRAPS - AND MY OWN BOOTS, AND I'M - PULLING THEM UP. - >> Reporter: ANGELA DAWSON FARMS - JUST A FEW MILES NORTH OF - STEVENS.

- FOUR YEARS AGO, SHE MOVED HERE - IN A CAREER SWITCH BACK TO A - FAMILY TRADITION THAT ENDED WHEN - HER GRANDFATHER LOST HIS FARM. - >> I FOUND THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE - AT LEAST 1,000, MAYBE 2,000, - 10,000 ACRES, IN ORDER TO REALLY - BE A SUSTAINABLE FARM, RIGHT. - AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I - DEFINITELY DIDN'T HAVE ACCESS - TO. - >> Reporter: SO SHE TRIED TO - JOIN THE BOOMING BUSINESS OF - ORGANIC FARMING, WHOSE - HUMANELY-RAISED MEAT COMMANDS - HIGHER PRICES AND THEREFORE IS - FEASIBLE ON A SMALL FARM. - BUT WHEN DAWSON, WHO HAS - A DEGREE IN BUSINESS - ADMINISTRATION, PRESENTED - HER BUSINESS PLAN, WITH HER - LOAN APPLICATION, SHE SAYS, - THE U.S.D.A. AGENT WAS NOT - CONVINCED. - >> I WAS REALLY ENTHUSIASTIC - ABOUT THE PIGS, AND SHE SAID, - "WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?" - >> Reporter: WHAT DO YOU THINK - THEY WERE REALLY ASKING YOU? - >> I FELT LIKE THEY WERE ASKING - ME, WHAT MAKES ME THINK I COULD - DO THIS? - >> Reporter: DESPITE AN APPEAL, - HER APPLICATION WAS REJECTED, IN - A PROCESS THAT TOOK 18 MONTHS, - SHE SAYS. - U.S.D.A. LOANS ARE USUALLY - PROCESSED IN ABOUT 30 DAYS. - AGRICULTURE DEPARTMENT OFFICIALS

- DECLINED TO COMMENT SPECIFICALLY - ON THIS CASE. - DAWSON FOUND A NEW PASSION-- AS - LUCRATIVE AS IT IS - CONTROVERSIAL. - >> Reporter: HEMP. - THE PLANT IS NOW LEGAL TO GROW - IN ALL STATES; ITS EXTRACTS SOLD - FOR MEDICINAL USE. - >> MY DECISION TO GO INTO HEMP - WAS DRIVEN BY ECONOMICS. - FOR C.B.D. HEMP, THE - AVERAGE FARMER MAKES ABOUT - $50,000 PER ACRE. - >> Reporter: DAWSON'S FARM IS - NOW THE HOME BASE OF A 33-MEMBER - CO-OPERATIVE OF MINORITY-OWNED - FARMS ACROSS THE U.S. - THE CO-OP GUIDES MEMBERS GROWING - HEMP ON HOW TO MONITOR THE CROP - SO IT MEETS LICENSING STANDARDS. - >> WE USE REGENERATIVE - PRACTICES, BUT WE ALSO USE - TECHNOLOGY, AND WE DON'T WANT - PEOPLE TO GET INTO FARMING TO BE - POOR. - >> Reporter: BUSINESS HAS BEEN - GREAT, SHE SAYS, BUT THAT RAISED - A RED FLAG AT ONE LOCAL BANK, - WHICH CLOSED HER ACCOUNTS. - >> THE BANK SAID THAT THEY - THOUGHT I COULD BE TRAFFICKING. - SO, THE CRIMINAL IMAGE THAT'S - ASSOCIATED WITH HEMP AND BLACK

- PEOPLE IS REALLY DIFFICULT FOR - ME TO OVERCOME. - SO, IT'S EVER AFTER. - BUT WE'RE STILL WORKING ON THE“ - HAPPILY” PART. - >> Reporter: ALSO WAITING FOR - HAPPILY EVER AFTER? - THE BATES FAMILY, HOPING BY - LEGAL ACTION OR REPARATION TO - BUY BACK THE LAND AND LEGACY - THAT THEY SAY WAS UNJUSTLY - CONFISCATED. - FOR THE PBS NEWSHOUR, - I'M FRED DE SAM LAZARO IN - NICODEMUS, KANSAS. - >> Woodruff: FRED'S REPORTING - IS IN PARTNERSHIP WITH THE - UNDER-TOLD STORIES PROJECT AT - THE UNIVERSITY OF ST. THOMAS IN - MINNESOTA. - >> Woodruff: U.S. MILITARY - FAMILIES STATIONED IN HAWAII - AND OTHERS WORKING IN AND AROUND - THE BASE THERE, ARE DEALING WITH

- TAP WATER CONTAMINATED WITH - PETROLEUM. - THE CAUSE IS UNKNOWN, BUT - INVESTIGATORS SAY A LEAK - FROM A NEARBY FUEL STORAGE - FACILITY, OPERATED BY THE NAVY, - MAY BE TO BLAME. - ON MONDAY, SECRETARY OF THE NAVY - CARLOS DEL TORO ISSUED AN - APOLOGY. - BUT, AS STEPHANIE SY REPORTS, - THERE WERE WARNING SIGNS. - >> Sy: FOR DAYS, ACTIVE DUTY - SOLDIERS AT JOINT BASE PEARL - HARBOR-HICKAM IN HAWAII HAVE - BEEN DISTRIBUTING WATER TO - THEIR OWN-- THOUSANDS OF - MILITARY FAMILIES WITHOUT CLEAN - DRINKING WATER, DUE TO FUEL - CONTAMINATION. - >> I AM A SINGLE, ACTIVE-DUTY - MOM TO TWO SPECIAL NEEDS KIDS. - >> Sy: AT SEVERAL TOWN HALLS IN - THE LAST WEEK, RESIDENT AFTER - RESIDENT REPORTED HARROWING - MEDICAL PROBLEMS-- IN THEIR - CHILDREN... - >> ON SUNDAY, MY CHILDREN TOOK A - BATH, AND FOR 45 MINUTES AFTER - THEY COMPLAINED OF BURNING SKIN. - >> Sy: ...AND IN THEIR PETS... - >> WE MADE THE HEART-BREAKING - CHOICE TO PUT MY BELOVED DOG - DOWN AFTER A MYSTERIOUS ILLNESS. - >> Sy: THE NAVY-RUN WATER SYSTEM - SERVES SOME 93,000 PEOPLE. - ABOUT 1,000 HOUSEHOLDS REPORTED - SMELLING FUEL IN THE WATER - STARTING IN LATE NOVEMBER. - IT TOOK THE NAVY ALMOST A WEEK

- TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE PROBLEM. - RESIDENTS LIKE AUDREY LAMAGNA - HAD BEEN SMELLING THE FUEL FOR - DAYS. - >> I DECIDED, LET ME JUST FILL - UP A CUP, LIKE A PLASTIC CUP, - FULL OF WATER. - AND, WHAT DO YOU KNOW? - THAT CUP SMELLED LIKE FUEL. - >> Sy: LAMAGNA, A MILITARY - SPOUSE, HAS A BABY AND A - SEVEN-YEAR-OLD. - WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR MIND, - WHEN YOU TESTED THE WATER AND - YOU REALIZED YOU HAD BEEN - BATHING YOUR CHILDN IN IT, - AND THAT THERE WAS SIGNS OF FUEL - IN IT? - >> "NOW I'M POISONING THEM, AND - I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW. - LIKE, HOW SAD IS THAT?" - >> Sy: THE CONTAMINATION - WAS FOUND IN THE NAVY-RUN - RED HILL WELL, WHICH SITS - CLOSE TO AN UNDERGROUND FUEL - STORAGE FACILITY BUILT DURING - WORLD WAR II. - THE FACILITY HAS HAD A HISTORY - OF LEAKS DING BACK TO 1949, - WITH 27,000 GALLONS OF JET FUEL - ACCIDENTALLY RELEASED IN 2014. - JUST TWO MONTHS AGO, HAWAII'S - DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH FINED THE - NAVY $325,000 FOR VIOLATIONS AT

- THE FACILITY, INCLUDING FAILURE - TO “MAINTAIN CORROSION - PROTECTION” OF THE METAL TANKS - AND PIPING. - THE 20 TANKS HAVE THE CAPACITY - TO HOLD 250 MILLION GALLONS OF - FUEL, AND THEY SIT ABOVE THE - ISLAND'S MOST IMPORTANT AQUIFER - WHICH SUPPLIES GROUNDWATER TO - 20% OF HONOLULU RESIDENTS. - AS A PRECAUTION, CIVILIAN WATER - AUTHORITIES SHUT DOWN A SHAFT - NEAR RED HILL THAT SERVES - CUSTOMERS IN HONOLULU. - GOVERNOR DAVID IGE ISSUED AN - EMERGENCY ORDER REQUESTING THE - NAVY COME UP WITH A PLAN TO - EMPTY THE FUEL TANKS, BUT IT'S - UNCLEAR HE HAS ANY ENFORCEMENT - AUTHORITY. - NAVY SECRETARY CARLOS DEL TORO - APOLOGIZED ON MONDAY, DURING - A VISIT TO THE BASE, AND - ANNOUNCED OPERATIONS WERE - SUSPENDED AT RED HILL. - >> AS LONG AS I'M SECRETARY OF - THE NAVY, I PLEDGE TO YOU THAT - WE WILL ADDRESS ALL THE ISSUES - THAT YOU JUST MENTIONED WITH - SINCERITY, TRANSPARENCY, AND THE - COMPLETE DEDICATION TO TRY TO - FIX THIS PROBLEM. - >> Sy: FOR NOW, MANY FAMILIES

- ARE FINDING ALTERNATE HOUSING-- - INCLUDING AUDREY LAMAGNA'S. - THEY'VE MOVED TO A HOTEL, WHICH - THE NAVY SAYS THEY'LL PAY FOR... - LATER. - DOES THAT WORK FOR YOU? - >> NO, IT DOES NOT. - BECAUSE WE LIVE PAYCHECK-TO- - PAYCHECK. - WE'RE ON A SINGLE INCOME. - >> Sy: THE NAVY SAYS IT IS - FLUSHING CLEAN WATER THROUGH - ITS SYSTEM, WHICH CAN TAKE UP TO - TEN DAYS. - >> EVEN IF THEY WERE TO GIVE US - THE "ALL CLEAR," QUITE FRANKLY, - I DON'T TRUST WHAT THE NAVY HAS - TO SAY ANYMORE. - >> Sy: JOINING ME NOW TO DISCUSS - THE WIDER IMPLICATIONS OF THE - WATER CONTAMINATION IS THE - MANAGER AND CHIEF ENGINEER OF - HONOLULU'S WATER SUPPLY BOARD, - ERNEST LAU. - MR. LAU, AWHO HA AND THANK YOU - FOR JOINING THE "NewsHour". - WHEN DID THE NAVY NOTIFY YOU - ABOUT THE CONTAMINATION AT THE - RED HILL SHAFT AND WHAT WAS YOUR - REACTION? - >> THE NAVY DID NOT NOTIFY US - ABOUT THE DRINKING WATER - CONTAMINATION. - OUR STATE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH - NOTIFIED US SUNDAY EVENING,

- SUNDAY AFTER THANKSGIVING. - BUT WE ACTUALLY GOT NO OFFICIAL - NOTIFICATION FROM THE NAVY. - >> Reporter: YOU SHUT DOWN THE - HALAWA SHAFT WHICH SERVES 20% OF - HONOLULU'S WATER CUSTOMERS. - WHY DID YOU DO THAT? - DID YOU FIND CONTAMINATION IN - WATER IN THAT WELL? - >> JUST TO BE CLEAR, STEF PHI, - WE HAVE NOT FOUND CONTAMINATION - BY FUEL IN OUR DRINKING WATER IN - THE HALAWA SHAFT. - IT REPRESENTS 20% OF OUR SUPPLY - CAPACITY. - WE TOOK THE PRECAUTION OF - SHUTTING IT DOWN BECAUSE WE SAW - WHAT HAPPENED TO THE NAVY. - AT RED HILL SHAFT THEY PUMPED - WATER INTO THEIR SYSTEM AND - DELIVERED IT TO THEIR CUSTOMERS. - AS A PRECAUTION, AND I DO NOT - WANT TO PUT OUR WATER CUSTOMERS - FROM THE BOARD OF WATER SUPPLY - THE PUBLIC AT RISK BY PUMPING - FUEL INTO THEIR DRINKING WATER - SYSTEM, SO WE SHUT TOWN THE - SHAFT BEFORE WE DETECTED ANY

- AMOUNTS OF FUEL IN THE WATER. - >> Reporter: YOU HAVE BEEN - LOOKING AT THIS ISSUE, I - UNDERSTAND, SINCE 2014, ERNIE, - WHEN THERE WAS A MASSIVE LEAK OF - 27,000 GALLONS OF FUEL FROM ONE - OF THE TANKS. - DOES IT FRUSTRATE YOU THAT NOT - MORE HAS BEEN DONE TO SECURE - THIS WATER SOURCE? - >> WE HAVE BEEN WORKING FOR - EIGHT YEARS TO RING THE ALARM - BELLS THAT THIS FACILITY NEEDS - TO BE ADDRESSED, IT NEEDS TO BE - EITHER UPGRADED TO DOUBLE TANKS - OR COMPLETELY REMOVED. - BE UH FOR THE LAST EIGHT YEARS, - OUR VOICES HAVEN'T BEEN HEARD. - WE'VE URGED THE REGULATORS, THE - DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND THE - USAP AND THE NAVY TO TAKE ACTION - TO PREVENT A DISASTER THAT WOULD - IMPACT HEAVILY OUR DRINKING - WATER RESOURCE. - >> THE NAVY NOW HAS STOPPED - OPERATIONS AT THE RED HILL FUEL - STORAGE TANKS, WHICH IS WHAT YOU - HAD BEEN CALLING FOR. - THE HAWAII CONGRESSIONAL

- DELEGATION HAD BEEN CALLING FOR - THAT, GOVERNOR EGAY SAYS HE - WANTS TO SEE THE TANKS EMPTIED - OF FUEL. - IS THAT SATISFACTORY TO YOU? - >> THIS GIVES US HOPE THAT - SUDDENLY THE KEY DECISION-MAKERS - ARE VOICING THEIR CONCERNS ABOUT - THE FACILITY. - WHAT REMAINS, THOUGH, STEPHANIE, - IS ACTUAL IMPLEMENTATION. - ARE THEY GOING TO CARRY THROUGH, - IS THE EMERGENCY ORDER ISSUED BY - THE HEALTH DIRECTOR FOR THE - STATE OF HAWAII GOING TO BE - ENFORCED STRICTLY AND HOLD THE - NAVY ACCOUNTABLE? - WE'VE SEEN IN THE PAST LETTERS - STRONGLY WORDED LETTERS SENT - FROM OUR DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH - AND E.P.A. TO THE NAVY, BUT WE - HAVEN'T REALLY SEEN THE - FOLLOW-THROUGH AND THOSE - REGULATORS HOLDING THE NAVY - ACCOUNTABLE. - SO NOW IS THE TIME TO NOT DO - THAT ANYMORE. - WE REALLY NEED TO GET THIS THING - ADDRESSED RIGHT AWAY AS SOON AS - POSSIBLE, AND FOR THE BOARD OF - WATER SUPPLY, IMMEDIATE REMOVAL - TO HAVE THE FUEL OUT OF RED HILL

- IS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO REDUCE - THIS RISK -- MASSIVE RISK TO OUR - DRINKING WATER AQUIFER. - THE NAVY IS EXPERIENCING IT - FIRSTHAND RIGHT NOW AND THAT'S - VERY UNFORTUNATE ANSWER. - I FEEL SO TERRIBLE FOR THEIR - CUSTOMERS HAVING TO ENDURE THIS - AND, YOU KNOW, DRINK THE - FUEL-CONTAMINATED WATER. - I DO NOT WANT THAT TO BE - REPEATED WITH THE GENERAL - PUBLIC. - THE ALMOST OVER 400,000 PEOPLE - THAT WE SERVE WATER IN THE CITY - OF HONOLULU ITSELF, WE CANNOT - LET THAT HAPPEN. - SO I NEED THE REGULATORS TO HOLD - THE NAVY ACCOUNTABLE. - I NEED THE NAVY TO STEP FORWARD - AND NOT FIGHT US ANYMORE. - WE HAVE BEEN FIGHTING WITH THEM - FOR EIGHT YEARS TO DO THE RIGHT - THING, TO PROTECT THE WATER - RESOURCE. - WE'VE ALWAYS SAID TO THEM, YOU - ALSO DEPEND ON THE RESOURCE - ITSELF FOR JOINT BASE PEARL - HARBOR HICKAM, AND THEY'VE TOLD - US RED HILL SHAFT SUPPLIES 24% - OF THEIR SUPPLY FOR THEIR BASE. - NOW, UNFORTUNATELY, WE SEE

- FIRSTHAND HOW IMPORTANT CLEAN - DRINKING WATER IS TO OUR - COMMUNITY AND TO THE BASE - ITSELF. - >> Reporter: EARNEST LAU, - CHIEF ENGINEER WITH HONOLULU'S - WATER SUPPLY BOARD. - THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ON THE - "NewsHour". - MAHALO. - >> Woodruff: A NEW HBO - DOCUMENTARY THAT DEBUTED - THIS WEEK TELLS THE STORY OF - A MAN ONCE THOUGHT TO BE A - TOP AL QAEDA OPERATIVE, AND - OF U.S. ATTEMPTS TO JUSTIFY - TORTURE IN THE NAME OF - PROTECTING AMERICANS. - AMNA NAWAZ RECENTLY SAT DOWN - WITH THE FILMMAKER, ALEX GIBNEY. - IT IS PART OF OUR ARTS AND - CULTURE SERIES, "CANVAS." - >> Nawaz: ABU ZUBAYDAH WAS THE - FIRST HIGH-VALUE DETAINEE - SUBJECTED TO THE C.I.A.'S - PROGRAM OF ENHANCED - INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES-- - PRACTICES DENOUNCED AS TORTURE - BOTH HERE IN THE U.S. AND - AROUND THE WORLD-- AFTER BEING

- CAPTURED IN A FIREFIGHT IN - PAKISTAN IN 2002. - ZUBAYDAH WAS SHUTTLED AMONG - SO-CALLED BLACK SITES, - SECRET PRISONS RUN BY THE C.I.A. - ALL OVER THE WORLD. - HE HAS NEVER BEEN CHARGED WITH A - CRIME, BUT FOR THE PAST 20 YEARS - HAS REMAINED IMPRISONED, MOSTLY - AT GUANTANAMO BAY. - WHILE A TEAM OF LAWYERS FIGHTS - FOR HIS RELEASE. - A NEW HBO DOCUMENTARY, CALLED - "THE FOREVER PRISONER," EXPLORES - THE STORY OF ABU ZUBAYDAH AND - U.S. ACTIONS IN THE NAME OF - NATIONAL SECURITY. - THE FILMMAKER BEHIND IT IS - ACADEMY AWARD-WINNER ALEX - GIBNEY, AND HE JOINS ME NOW. - WELCOME TO THE NEWSHOUR. - THANKS FOR BEING HERE. - >> GLAD TO BE HERE. - >> Nawaz: ABU ZUBAYDAH IS - CONSIDERED A HIGH VALUE DETAINEE - TO THE U.S. - TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HIM. - WHAT DID THE U.S. BELIEVE - THAT HE KNEW, THAT MADE HIM - HIGH-VALUE? - >> WELL, CERTAIN MEMBERS OF THE - C.I.A. BELIEVED THAT HE WAS THE - NUMBER THREE IN AL QAEDA. - THAT MADE HIM A HIGH-VALUE - DETAINEE. - OTHER MEMBERS OF THE C.I.A. - ACTUALLY FELT HE WAS MORE OF A - KIND OF INDEPENDENT FACILITATOR, - WHICH IS ACTUALLY WHAT HE WAS. - HE WAS FLOWN TO A SECRET SITE, - WHICH WE NOW KNOW WAS IN

- THAILAND, NORTHERN THAILAND. - AND HE WAS INTERROGATED. - AT FIRST BY F.B.I. AGENTS, AND - THEN LATER BY A GROUP FROM THE - C.I.A., ULTIMATELY BY A - GENTLEMAN NAMED JAMES MITCHELL, - >> Nawaz: WHEN THE F.B.I.'S - LEADING THE QUESTIONING, IS HE - OFFERING THEM ANY INFORMATION - THAT'S HELPFUL? - >> HE OFFERED THE F.B.I. - INFORMATION THAT WAS HELPFUL - ALMOST IMMEDIATELY, AND IT WAS - ABOUT AN IMPENDING ATTACK, IN - THIS CASE, ON ISRAEL, FUNDED BY - PEOPLE IN SAUDI ARABIA. - AND THE C.I.A. WAS ABLE TO - PREVENT THAT ATTACK. - SO, IMMEDIATELY, HE WAS OFFERING - VALUABLE, ACTIONABLE - INTELLIGENCE, THROUGH - TRADITIONAL RAPPORT-BUILDING - TECHNIQUES, WHICH HAD NOTHING TO - DO WITH TORTURE. - >> Nawaz: THEN THE C.I.A. - REMAINS CONVINCED HE'S - WITHHOLDING INFORMATION. - WE DON'T EXACTLY UNDERSTAND WHY, - BUT THEY DECIDE TO RAMP UP THE - PRESSURE. - THIS MAN THAT YOU MENTIONED, - JAMES MITCHELL, BECOMES MUCH - MORE CENTRAL TO THIS OPERATION. - I JUST WANT TO PLAY A QUICK CLIP - HERE. - HERE IS HOW YOU INTRODUCE HIM IN - THE FILM.

- >> MITCHELL WAS THE INVENTOR OF - THE ACRONYM FOR WHAT THE C.I.A. - CALLED ENHANCED INTERROGATION - TECHNIQUES AND WHAT THE REST OF - THE WORLD CALLED TORTURE. - >> IF MY BOSS TELLS ME IT'S - ILLEGAL, ESPECIALLY IF THE - PRESIDENT HAS APPROVED IT, - I'M NOT GOING TO GET INTO THE - NUANCES ABOUT WHAT SOME GUY IN - THE BASEMENT OR WHAT SOME - JOURNALIST THINKS ABOUT IT, - BECAUSE THEY'RE FREE TO TRADE - PLACES WITH ME ANYTIME THEY - THINK THEY CAN DO A BETTER JOB - OF PROTECTING AMERICANS. - >> Nawaz: ALEX, HOW DOES THAT - MAN-- HOW DOES JAMES MITCHELL - END UP AT THE BLACK SITE RUN BY - THE C.I.A., WHERE ABU ZUBAYDAH - IS BEING INTERROGATED? - WHAT'S HIS BACKGROUND IN - INTERROGATIONS? - >> THAT'S A REALLY GOOD - QUESTION. - HE HAD ABSOLUTELY ZERO - BACKGROUND IN INTERROGATION. - NONE. - HE HAD NEVER INTERROGATED - ANYBODY IN HIS LIFE. - HOWEVER, HE DID HAVE A - DISTINGUISHED CAREER AS A - PSYCHOLOGIST, WHO HAD BEEN - SPENDING TIME AT THE SO-CALLED - AIR FORCE SERE SCHOOL. - SERE STANDS FOR SURVIVAL, - EVASION, RESISTANCE ANESCAPE. - AND THOSE WERE SCHOOLS WHERE WE

- SENT SOME OF OUR MILITARY TO - LEARN HOW TO, YOU KNOW, SURVIVE, - SO HE HAD OBSERVED AND WAS PART - OF A SCHOOL TO LEARN PEOPLE-- TO - TEACH PEOPLE HOW TO RESIST - TORTURE. - BUT HE HAD NEVER HIMSELF DONE - ANY INTERROGATIONS. - >> Nawaz: DESPITE THIS, MITCHELL - SUBMITS A LIST TO THE C.I.A. - THESE ARE SUGGESTED TECHNIQUES - THAT THEY SHOULD BE CONSIDERING. - THAT LIST INCLUDES THINGS LIKE - SLAPPING DETAINEES; - WALLING, WHICH IS BASICALLY - SHOVING THEM UP AGAINST A WALL; - STRESS POSITIONS, CRAMPED - CONFINEMENT, SLEEP DEPRIVATION, - WATERBOARDING. - TO MOST OF US LAYMEN, IT SOUNDS - LIKE TORTURE, BUT OF COURSE, THE - U.S. IS A SIGNATORY TO THE - GENEVA CONVENTION AGAINST - TORTURE. - D.O.J. SIGNS OFF ON ALL OF THIS. - HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN, HUH? - >> ( LAUGHS ) - WELL, THAT'S PART OF THE STORY - OF "THE FOREVER PRISONER." - IT HAPPENS THROUGH A KIND OF - EXCRUCIATING LEGAL EXERCISE, IN - WHICH THEY USE THE RATIONALE OR - THE RATIONALIZATION THAT BECAUSE - WE DO THESE THINGS TO OUR OWN - PEOPLE, HOW BAD COULD IT BE? - HOW BAD COULD IT ACTUALLY BE? - BECAUSE INDEED, WE DO WATERBOARD - SOME OF OUR SOLDIERS, TO SHOW - THEM WHAT MIGHT BE IN STORE FOR - THEM IF THEY'RE CAPTURED BY A

- TERRIBLE REGIME. - BUT THOSE ARE EXERCISES, AND - THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH - WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF YOU-- - FURTHERMORE, THESE TECHNIQUES - ALMOST ALWAYS RESULT, NOT IN - PEOPLE TELLING YOU WHAT IS THE - TRUTH, BUT THEY TELL YOU EXACTLY - WHAT IT IS THAT THEY THINK YOU - WANT TO HEAR. - >> Nawaz: SO THE DEPARTMENT OF - JUSTICE ESSENTIALLY GIVES THE - GREEN LIGHT TO JAMES MITCHELL - AND A TEAM OF C.I.A. - INTERROGATORS WHO ARE HOLDING - ABU ZUBAYDAH. - WHAT HAPPENS NEXT? - WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR HIS - INTERROGATIONS? - >> IT MEANS THAT THEY ENGAGE IN - THESE TECHNIQUES, INCLUDING - WATERBOARDING, AND HE'S - WATERBOARDED 83 TIMES IN THE - COURSE OF A FEW WEEKS. - AND INDEED, AT ONE POINT, - HE DIES. - HE LITERALLY STOPS BREATHING AND - HAS TO BE REVIVED, BROUGHT BACK. - AND AT ONE POINT, JAMES - MITCHELL, WHO,FTER ALL, WAS - KIND OF THE ARCHITECT OF THESE - TECHNIQUES, EVEN APPEALS TO THE - C.I.A. AND SAYS, YOU KNOW, - WE'VE-- WE'VE WATERBOARDED HIM - CONSISTENTLY, AND HE'S UNDERGONE - ENORMOUS PAIN. - WE DON'T THINK THAT IT'S WORTH

- DOING IT ANYMORE. - AND THE C.I.A. INSISTS THEY - CONTINUE, AND THEY CONTINUE TO - WATERBOARD HIM OVER AND OVER AND - OVER AGAIN. - >> Nawaz: YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WILL - LOOK AT THIS STORY. - THEY WILL HAVE FOLLOWED THE NEWS - OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS. - TO HAVE KNOWN ABOUT THE - TECHNIQUES AND SAY, IN TIMES OF - WAR, IN THE NAME OF NATIONAL - SECURITY, THE U.S. HAS ALWAYS - AND PROBABLY WILL ALWAYS DO UGLY - AND HORRIFIC THINGS. - WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THEM? - >> I WOULD SAY TWO THINGS. - NUMBER ONE, THESE TECHNIQUES ARE - IMMORAL. - I WOULD SAY, NUMBER TWO, THEY DO - NOT YIELD THE TRUTH. - THEY'RE UNDEPENDABLE. - THEY TEND TO YIELD WHAT THE - INTERROGATORS WANT TO HEAR. - THE C.I.A. THOUGHT HE WAS THE - NUMBER THREE IN AL QAEDA, WHICH - HE WASN'T. - BUT ULTIMATELY, HE SAYS, - YES, I'M THE NUMBER THREE IN - AL QAEDA. - SO, YOU DON'T HAVE TO ASK - YOURSELF IF YOU'RE IN THE - INTELLIGENCE BUSINESS-- - WHAT DO YOU WANT? - THE TRUTH? - OR SOMEBODY TO TELL YOU WHAT YOU - WANT TO HEAR? - >> Nawaz: MEANWHILE, THE MAN - AT THE CENTER OF ALL OF THIS,

- ABU ZUBAYDAH, WE DO NOT HEAR - FROM. - WHAT DOES THE FUTURE HOLD FOR - HIM? - >> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. - HE IS IN GUANTANAMO. - HE'S NEVER BEEN CHARGED WITH A - CRIME. - HE'S NEVER BEEN PERMITTED TO - CHALLENGE HIS DETENTION. - AND ONE OF THE THINGS WE - DISCOVERED, AS PART OF DOING - THIS DOCUMENTARY, WAS A CABLE, - OR A SERIES OF CABLES, BACK AND - FORTH FROM THE BLACK SITE IN - THAILAND TO THE C.I.A. IN - LANGLEY. - AND THE C.I.A. ASSURES THE - PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING THE - INTERROGATION, WHO ARE AFRAID - THAT ABU ZUBAYDAH MAY SOMEDAY - TELL WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM-- - "REST ASSURED"-- - AND THIS IS A DIRECT QUOTE-- - "HE WILL REMAIN INCOMMUNICADO - FOR THE REMAINDER OF HIS LIFE." - AND SO FAR, THAT'S BEEN THE - CASE, THOUGH INTERESTINGLY, HIS - NAME HAS RECENTLY SURFACED IN - THE SUPREME COURT, AND A CERTAIN - NUMBER OF JUSTICES WONDERED HOW - IS IT POSSIBLE THAT SOMEBODY - COULD BE HELD FOR 20 YEARS - WITHOUT THE ABILITY TO CHALLENGE - THEIR DETENTION? - >> Nawaz: THE DOCUMENTARY IS - "THE FOREVER PRISONER." - IT DEBUTS ON HBO AND HBO MAX ON - ALEX GIBNEY, THANKS SO MUCH FOR - BEING HERE. - >> THANK YOU. - >> Woodruff: AUSTRALIAN - GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS WILL NOT

- ATTEND THE WINTER OLYMPIC GAMES - IN BEIJING. - JOINING A U.S. DIPLOMAT BOYCOTT - ANNOUNCED EARLIER THIS WEEK. - AUSTRALIA'S PRIME MINISTER SAYS - CHINA HAS NOT RESPONDED TO HIS - COUNTRY'S CONCERNS OVER ALLEGED - HUMAN RIGHT ABUSES. - LIKE AMERICAN ATHLETES, - AUSTRALIAN ATHLETES WILL STILL - COMPETE IN THE GAMES. - ON THE "NewsHour" - ON THE NEWSHOUR ONLINE RIGHT - NOW, THE U.S. NAVY'S - COMMEMORATION OF THE 80th - ANNIVERSARY OF THE PEARL HARBOR - ATTACK. - THE SECRETARY OF THE NAVY KICKED - GAVE A KEY NOTE ADDRESS AT THE - CEREMONY IN HAWAII. - AND SEPARATELY, IN WASHINGTON, - D.C., PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN - OBSERVED THE ANNIVERSARY BY - VISITING THE WORLD WAR II - MEMORIAL. - ALL THE DAYS EVENTS ON OUR - WEBSITE NOW, - www.pbs.org/newshour. - AND THAT IS THE NEWSHOUR FOR - TONIGHT. - I'M JUDY WOODRUFF. - JOIN US ONLINE, AND AGAIN HERE - TOMORROW EVENING. - FOR ALL OF US AT THE PBS - NEWSHOUR, THANK YOU, PLEASE STAY - SAFE, AND WE'LL SEE YOU SOON. - >> MAJOR FUNDING FOR THE PBS

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- THANK YOU. - Captioning sponsored by - NEWSHOUR PRODUCTIONS, LLC - Captioned by - Media Access Group at WGBH - access.wgbh.org - Emergency Planning for Kids. - We can't predict when

- an emergency will happen. - So that's why it's important - to make a plan - with your parents. - Here are a few tips - to stay safe. - Know how to get in touch - with your family. - Write down phone numbers - for your parents, - siblings and neighbors. - Pick a place - to meet your family - if you are not together - and can't go home. - Remind your parents to pack - an emergency supply kit. - Making a plan - might feel like homework, - but it will help you - and your family stay safe - during an emergency. - ♪ - >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME

- TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY." - HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP. - >> THUS FAR THE SIGNALS ARE A - BIT ENCOURAGING REGARDING THE - SEVERITY. - >> THAT'S THE GOOD NEWS ON - OMICRON SO FAR. - I SPEAK EXCLUSIVELY WITH GREEK - PRIME MINISTER KYRIAKOS - MITSOTAKIS ABOUT HIS PLAN TO - FIND THOSE WHO REFUSE THE - VACCINE. - >>> AND -- - >> - ♪ - >> "RAISE THE ROOF," GRAMMY - AWARD-WINNING MUSICIANS ALISON - KRAUSS AND ROBERT PLANT DISCUSS - THEIR NEW ALBUM AND WHY IT TOOK - 14 LONG YEARS TO REUNITE. - >>> PLUS -- - >> ARE WE GOING TO WITH MORAL