PBS NewsHour; May 28, 2015 3:00pm-4:00pm PDT

Captioning sponsored by NEWSHOUR PRODUCTIONS, LLC

>> Ifill: THE WHITE HOUSE ISSUES NEAR DAILY WARNINGS OF TERROR THREATS, AS THE DEADLINE APPROACHES TO RENEW KEY PORTIONS OF THE PATRIOT ACT. GOOD EVENING, I'M GWEN IFILL.

>> Woodruff: AND I'M JUDY WOODRUFF. ALSO AHEAD THIS THURSDAY: HIGH TEMPERATURES HIT INDIA. MORE THAN 1,000 PEOPLE HAVE DIED IN A RELENTLESS HEAT WAVE. WE GET AN ON-THE-GROUND UPDATE.

>> THE PEOPLE MOST AFFECTED ARE THE POOR, THE ELDERLY. THEY'RE OFTEN PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE POWER, SO THE MOST VULNERABLE PEOPLE IN SOCIETY WERE AFFECTED BY THIS.

>> Ifill: PLUS, FROM HIPPIE TO CORPORATE C.E.O. THE HEAD OF AETNA INSURANCE ON THE PAYOFF FOR A NON-TRADITIONAL APPROACH TO LEADERSHIP, REDUCING THE BOTTOM LINE.

>> I CAME TO WORK ONE DAY, AND I SAID, "YOU KNOW WHAT? I THINK WE SHOULD DO MEDITATION AND YOGA AT WORK." AND EVERYONE WENT, "UHHH!" YOU KNOW? THE EYE ROLL, RIGHT? AND IT'S BECAUSE THE C.E.O. DOES YOGA AND MEDITATION, WE'VE ALL GOT TO DO YOGA AND MEDITATION.

>> Woodruff: THOSE ARE SOME OF THE STORIES WE'RE COVERING ON TONIGHT'S PBS NEWSHOUR.

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>> Woodruff: FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE DENNIS HASTERT WAS INDICTED TODAY AND CHARGED WITH EVADING CURRENCY RULES AND LYING TO THE F.B.I. A STATEMENT FROM THE U.S. ATTORNEY'S OFFICE IN CHICAGO ALLEGES HE WITHDREW NEARLY A MILLION DOLLARS IN CASH IN SUCH A WAY THAT THE BANK WOULDN'T HAVE TO REPORT THE TRANSACTIONS. EACH COUNT OF THE INDICTMENT CARRIES A MAXIMUM PENALTY OF FIVE YEARS IN PRISON. THE ILLINOIS REPUBLICAN LEFT OFFICE IN 2007. A NEW ROUND OF RAIN TODAY THREATENED TO HAMPER SEARCH EFFORTS FOR FLOOD VICTIMS IN CENTRAL TEXAS. FOUR PEOPLE DIED AFTER THE SWOLLEN BLANCO RIVER ENGULFED THE SMALL TOURIST TOWN OF WIMBERLEY OVER MEMORIAL DAY WEEKEND. AND LOCAL OFFICIALS FEAR MORE RAIN COULD MOVE DEBRIS AROUND, MAKING IT TOO DANGEROUS FOR SEARCH CREWS TO FIND THE EIGHT PEOPLE WHO ARE STILL MISSING. EVEN SO, THE FAMILIES OF THE MISSING PLEDGED TO KEEP LOOKING.

>> AT TIMES WHEN IT COULD BE EASY TO FEEL CYNICAL ABOUT THE WORLD AROUND US, THIS EXPERIENCE HAS STRENGTHENED OUR FAITH IN GOD AND IN HUMANITY. AT THE SAME TIME WE ALSO FEEL A TREMENDOUS SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY AND RESOLVE. THIS EFFORT IS NOT OVER. WE ARE 100% COMMITTED TO FINDING LAURA, ANDREW, LEIGHTON, RANDY, WILL, RALPH AND SUE.

>> Woodruff: FARTHER EAST FLOODS ARE STILL EXPANDING IN COMMUNITIES AROUND HOUSTON. SEARCH TEAMS ARE LOOKING FOR TWO PEOPLE WHO DISAPPEARED THERE DURING THIS WEEK'S TORRENTIAL RAINS.

>> Ifill: HUMAN ERROR WAS PROBABLY NOT THE REASON THE ARMY MISTAKENLY SHIPPED LIVE ANTHRAX TO LABS IN NINE STATES AND OVERSEAS. ARMY GENERAL RAY ODIERNO SAID IT WAS MORE LIKELY A FAILURE IN THE TECHNICAL PROCESS OF HOW THE ANTHRAX SAMPLES ARE KILLED, OR INACTIVATED. THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION HAVE LAUNCHED AN INVESTIGATION, AND 22 PEOPLE AT OSAN AIR BASE IN SOUTH KOREA ARE BEING TREATED AS A PRECAUTION.

>> Woodruff: THE NATION'S TOP COMMUNICATIONS REGULATOR OFFERED UP A PLAN TODAY TO BRING SUBSIDIZED BROADBAND ACCESS TO THE POOR. THE CHAIRMAN OF THE FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION, TOM WHEELER, WANTS TO EXPAND A PHONE SUBSIDY PROGRAM FOR LOW- INCOME FAMILIES TO INCLUDE INTERNET ACCESS. NEARLY HALF OF THOSE HOUSEHOLDS DON'T HAVE HIGH-SPEED INTERNET CONNECTIONS AND MANY RELY ON SMARTPHONES TO GET ONLINE.

>> Ifill: "SCIENCE" MAGAZINE RETRACTED A STUDY TODAY THAT CLAIMED OPENLY GAY CANVASSERS COULD SWAY VOTERS OPINIONS IN FAVOR OF GAY MARRIAGE. "SCIENCE" REMOVED THE STUDY TITLED "WHEN CONTACT CHANGES MINDS," WITHOUT THE AGREEMENT OF THE PAPER'S CO-AUTHOR. DESPITE REQUESTS FROM "SCIENCE" INVESTIGATORS, HE NEVER PRODUCED THE RAW DATA UNDERLYING THE STUDY. THE PAPER WAS ORIGINALLY PUBLISHED FIVE MONTHS AGO.

>> Woodruff: CHRYSLER FIAT, B.M.W. AND HONDA BECAME THE FIRST AUTOMAKERS TO EXPAND THEIR RECALLS OF AIRBAGS IN THE U.S. TODAY. LAST WEEK, THE MAKER OF THE AIRBAGS, TAKATA, DOUBLED ITS RECALL OF THE POTENTIALLY DEADLY AIRBAGS TO NEARLY 34 MILLION IN THE U.S. SAFETY REGULATORS STILL HAVE TO PINPOINT THE EXACT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM, BUT THE AIRBAGS CAN EXPLODE WITH TOO MUCH FORCE AND SHOOT SHRAPNEL INTO THE VEHICLE.

>> Ifill: THE FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION ANNOUNCED A RECORD SETTLEMENT TODAY WITH TEVA PHARMACEUTICALS FOR KEEPING CHEAPER FORMS OF MEDICINES OFF THE MARKET. THE $1.2 BILLION SETTLEMENT IS A MAJOR VICTORY AGAINST WHAT'S KNOWN IN THE INDUSTRY AS "PAY FOR DELAY" DEALS. THE F.T.C. CHARGED THAT ONE OF TEVA'S SUBSIDIARIES ILLEGALLY BLOCKED THE LAUNCH OF GENERIC VERSIONS OF ITS SLEEPING PILL PROVIGIL.

>> Woodruff: ON WALL STREET TODAY THERE WERE MODEST LOSSES AS TRADERS WAITED OUT A GREEK DEBT DEADLINE. THE DOW JONES INDUSTRIAL AVERAGE LOST 37 POINTS TO CLOSE AT 18126. THE NASDAQ FELL EIGHT POINTS THE S&P 500 DROPPED TWO POINTS.

>> Ifill: FORMER THREE-TERM NEW YORK GOVERNOR GEORGE PATAKI HAS BECOME THE LATEST REPUBLICAN TO ENTER THE 2016 RACE FOR THE WHITE HOUSE. PATAKI WAS GOVERNOR OF THE HEAVILY-DEMOCRATIC STATE DURING THE 9/11 ATTACKS, BUT HASN'T HELD POLITICAL OFFICE SINCE 2006. TODAY, HE PLEDGED TO RESTORE BIPARTISAN UNITY, AS HE ANNOUNCED HIS CANDIDACY IN EXETER, NEW HAMPSHIRE.

>> I HAVE SEEN WHAT AMERICANS CAN DO WHEN WE UNDERSTAND WE SHARE A COMMON DREAM. A COMMON FUTURE. A COMMON DESTINY. I KNOW THAT WORKING TOGETHER WITH THE SUPPORT OF A GOVERNMENT DEDICATED TO RESTORING FREEDOM RATHER THAN RESTRAINING IT, WE WILL ONCE AGAIN ASTONISH THE WORLD WITH WHAT WE CAN ACCOMPLISH.

>> Ifill: PATAKI ENTERS AN INCREASINGLY CROWDED FIELD, AS THE EIGHTH REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE. STILL TO COME ON THE NEWSHOUR: THE WHITE HOUSE CALLS ON CONGRESS TO RENEW KEY PARTS OF THE PATRIOT ACT. A RELENTLESS HEATWAVE TURNS DEADLY FOR MORE THAN 1,400 IN INDIA. WHY PRESIDENT OBAMA'S EXECUTIVE ORDERS TO REFORM IMMIGRATION REMAIN STALLED. A NEW STUDY FINDS TREATING H.I.V. AT DIAGNOSIS IS CRITICAL TO PREVENTING ILLNESS AND DEATH. CRITICS CALL FOR FIFA'S PRESIDENT TO STEP DOWN AMID A MAJOR CRACKDOWN ON CORRUPTION. THE QUIRKY C.E.O. OF AETNA INSURANCE ON AUTHENTIC LEADERSHIP AND MANAGEMENT. AND, A HARROWING ACCOUNT OF A MASSACRE THAT UPENDED SCANDANAVIA.

>> Woodruff: THIS COULD PROVE TO BE A PIVOTAL WEEK FOR THE FUTURE OF BOTH SURVEILLANCE AND PRIVACY IN THE UNITED STATES. THREE KEY PROVISIONS OF THE PATRIOT ACT ARE SET TO EXPIRE, AND SO FAR THERE IS NO COMPROMISE IN THE U.S. SENATE OVER WHETHER OR HOW TO EXTEND THEM. THAT HAS THE WHITE HOUSE RAISING ALARM BELLS.

>> THE PROBLEM WE HAVE NOW IS THAT THOSE AUTHORITIES RUN OUT AT MIDNIGHT ON SUNDAY.

>> Woodruff: PRESIDENT OBAMA ON TUESDAY PRESSED THE SENATE TO RENEW PATRIOT ACT SURVEILLANCE PROGRAMS THAT ARE SET TO EXPIRE LATE SUNDAY.

>> BECAUSE IT'S NECESSARY TO KEEP THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SAFE AND SECURE.

>> Woodruff: THREE INTELLIGENCE TOOLS ARE SCHEDULED TO EXPIRE: "ROVING WIRETAPS" THAT ALLOW MONITORING OF TERROR SUSPECTS' CALLS EVEN WHEN THEY SWITCH PHONES. THE SO-CALLED "LONE WOLF" PROVISION THAT PERMITS SURVEILLANCE OF INDIVIDUALS NOT AFFILIATED WITH TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS. AND FINALLY: THE NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY'S CONTROVERSIAL BULK COLLECTION OF AMERICANS' TELEPHONE METADATA RECORDS. IT'S AUTHORIZED UNDER SECTION 215 OF THE PATRIOT ACT. THE SENATE FAILED TO PASS A TEMPORARY EXTENSION SATURDAY. KENTUCKY REPUBLICAN RAND PAUL WAS AMONG THOSE OBJECTING TO THE METADATA COLLECTION.

>> THIS IS A DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT A WARRANT WITH A SINGLE NAME OF A SINGLE COMPANY CAN BE USED TO COLLECT ALL THE RECORDS, ALL OF THE PHONE RECORDS OF ALL OF THE PEOPLE IN OUR COUNTRY WITH A SINGLE WARRANT.

>> Woodruff: SENATORS WILL TRY TO WORK OUT A DEAL IN A RARE SUNDAY SESSION, HOURS BEFORE THE ACT EXPIRES. WE GET THE WHITE HOUSE PERSPECTIVE NOW FROM LISA MONACO, ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT FOR HOMELAND SECURITY. I SPOKE TO HER A SHORT TIME AGO. LISA MONACO, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. WHY SHOULD THESE SURVEILLANCE PROGRAMS BE CONTINUED?

>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU, JUDY. THANKS FOR HAVING ME. JUDY WHAT'S AT STAKE HERE IS THE LAPSE OF THREE IMPORTANT NATIONAL SECURITY AUTHORITIES THAT WERE LAPSED ON SUNDAY EXPIRE SUNDAY NIGHT IF THE SENATE DOESN'T ACT AND WHAT'S AT ISSUE HERE IS, FRANKLY A NUMBER OF UNCONTROVERSIAL AUTHORITIES THAT HAVE BEEN USED TO IMPORTANT EFFECT BY OUR NATIONAL SECURITY INVESTIGATORS FOR YEARS. THESE ARE AUTHORITIES THAT HAVE BEEN REAUTHORIZED SEVERAL TIMES OVER THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS AND THESE ARE TOOLS AS BASIC BUILDING BLOCKS FOR NATIONAL SECURITY INVESTIGATIONS TO CATCH TERRORISTS TO IDENTIFY TERRITORIES, TO IDENTIFY TERRORISTS' PLOTS AND THEY ARE USED TO GREAT EFFECT BY OUR INVESTIGATORS AND OUR F.B.I. AGENTS AND INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY. WHAT YOU'VE HEARD FROM THE F.B.I. DIRECTOR AND OTHERS IS THAT THE LOSS OF THESE TOOLS WILL IMPACT THEIR WORK TREMENDOUSLY.

>> Woodruff: SO HAS THE PRESIDENT AGREED TO SCALE BACK THE MASS COLLECTION OF AMERICAN PHONE DATA IN ORDER THAT THERE BE SOME RESTRICTIONS ON WHEN THAT COLLECTION IS DONE?

>> WELL, WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT THIS JUDY, IS THAT SOME VERY LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN RAISED OVER THE LAST YEAR OR SO ABOUT THE N.S.A.'S PROGRAM TO COLLECT TELEPHONE METADATA, INFORMATION ABILITY TELEPHONE CALLS AND TELEPHONE CALL NUMBERS BUT NOT THE CONTENT. NEVERTHELESS LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN RAISED ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT HOLDING ON TO THATDA AT THAT. WHAT THE PRESIDENT DID A YEAR AND A HALF AGO IS ASK HIS NATIONAL SECURITY TEAM COME UP WITH FORMS TO ENSURE THAT THE OPERATIONAL CAPABILITIES AND BENEFITS THAT WE GET FROM THESE PROGRAMS CONTINUE TO BE USED FOR THE SAFETY AND SECURITY OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE BUT THAT WE ADDRESS THE VERY REAL CONCERNS THAT PEOPLE HAVE ABOUT THEIR PRIVACY WHEN GOVERNMENT HOLDS THIS DATA. SO WHAT THE U.S.A. FREEDOM ACT DOES WHICH HAS GARNERED 348 DEMOCRAT AND REPUBLICAN VOTES IN THE HOUSE AND IS BEFORE THE SENATE, WHAT THAT BILL DOES IS IMPLEMENT THE PRESIDENT'S REQUESTED REFORMS WHERE THAT DATA WOULD BE HELD BY THE PROVIDERS, BY THE TELEPHONE COMPANIES AND BE ABLE TO BE ACCESSED BY THE GOVERNMENT ONLY PURSUANT TO A COURT ORDER. SO THE BILL THAT THE SENATE SHOULD AND CAN ACT ON ON SUNDAY IN ORDER TO IMPLEMENT THESE REFORMS BEFORE THE SENATE AND WOULD ALSO CONTINUE UNCONTROVERSIAL AUTHORITIES THAT THE F.B.I. AND OTHERS NEEDS TO DO THEIR WORK.

>> Woodruff: JUST QUICKLY, ON THE CONTINUING TO COLLECT PHONE METADATA UNDER COURT ORDER, THERE ARE OPPONENTS WHO SAY EVEN THAT IS STILL TOO LENIENT, THAT A COURT IS STILL GOING TO BE INCLINED TO SAY YES UNDER ALMOST EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE.

>> WELL, WHAT WE'VE SEEN, JUDY IS THAT THIS PROGRAM THAT HAS BEEN USED BY THE N.S.A. AND OUR INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY IN THE PAST HAS PROVED TO BE THAT, YOU'VE HEARD THAT FROM THE NATIONAL SECURITY PROFESSIONALS. BUT NEVERTHELESS LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS ARE RAISED, WE'VE ADDRESSED THEM WITH GUARDED BIPARTISAN SUPPORT AND NOW THERE'S NO REASON NOT TO ACT ON THAT BILL AND OTHERWISE TO NOT DO SO WOULD BE TO COURT UNNECESSARY RISK.

>> Woodruff: NOW THE OTHER TWO PROVISIONS YOU'RE REFERRING TO, ONE IS THE SO-CALLED ROVING WIRETAPS PROVISION ANOTHER IS THE SO-CALLED LONE WOLF PROVISION THAT WOULD ALLOW YOU TO TRACK PEOPLE NOT OTHERWISE IDENTIFIED AS TERRORISTS, AND I UNDERSTAND YOU TO BE SAYING THERE'S A LOT -- BUT FOR THE AUDIENCE WHO DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THESE PROVISIONS DO, WHAT IS THE LOSS IF THESE PROVISIONS EXPIRE?

>> LET ME EXPLAIN THAT. WITH RESPECT TO THE ROVING WIRETAP PROVISION, THIS IS AN AUTHORITY THAT HAS BEEN USED TO GREAT EFFECT ON THE CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS. THINK ABOUT A BASIC CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION WHEN A SUSPECT USES MULTIPLE AND DIFFERENT CELL PHONES. IN THIS DAY AND AGE THAT'S A TOOL THAT INVESTIGATORS WANT TO HAVE IN THEIR TOOLKIT. WHAT THIS AUTHORITY DOES IS ALLOWS THE F.B.I. TO GO TO A COURT AND SAY, THE SUBJECT THAT WE'RE INTERESTED IN USES MULTIPLE PHONES, MAYBE DELIBERATELY CHANGES UP HIS PHONES, AND RATHER THAN HAVE TO GO REPEATEDLY BACK TO A JUDGE TO TRY AND STAY AHEAD OF THAT THIS AUTHORITY WOULD ALLOW THEM TO STAY UP ON THAT PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL. THIS IS A TOOL THAT'S BEEN USED IN DRUG INVESTIGATIONS AND CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS FOR DECADES AND IT'S ONE THAT IS USED IN THE NATIONAL SECURITY INVESTIGATIONS TO GREAT EFFECT AND WE WANT TO CONTINUE TO HAVE THAT TOOL FOR OUR INVESTIGATORS.

>> Woodruff: QUICKLY, WHAT'S THE LOSS IF ANY OF THIS EXPIRES EVEN FOR A MATTER OF A FEW DAYS?

>> THE LOSS, JUDY IS TAKING UNNECESSARY RISKS. WE ARE IN A HIGH-THREAT ENVIRONMENT. WE FACE THREATS EVERY DAY FROM THOSE WHO ARE TRYING TO DO US HARM WHETHER AL QUAIDA AL QUAIDA IN THE ARABIAN PENINSULA AND I.S.I.L AS WE'VE SEEN IN THE MOST RECENT PERIODS. THE WAFF HERE IS HAVING AN UNNECESSARY GAP IN OUR COLLECTION AND NOT BEING ABLE TO USE TOOLS THAT HAVE BEEN PROVEN AND HAVE BEEN SAID BY OUR INTELLIGENCE PROFESSIONALS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT PROFESSIONALS THAT THEY ARE USEFUL AND NECESSARY TO KEEP THE COUNTRY SAFE.

>> Woodruff: LISA MONACO WHO IS ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT, WE THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Woodruff: WE GET DIFFERENT VIEWS NOW ON JUST WHAT THESE SPYING POWERS MEAN, AND WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN IF THEY EXPIRE. JAMES BAMFORD, IS AUTHOR OF "THE SHADOW FACTORY" AND HAS CHRONICLED THE NATIONAL SECURITY COMPLEX FOR DECADES. AND MICHAEL MUKASEY, IS THE FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL UNDER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH. GENTLEMEN, WE WELCOME BOTH OF YOU TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU JUDY. MR. MUKASEY, LET ME START WITH YOU. YOU HEARD LISA MONACO'S ARGUMENTS FOR WHY THE ADMINISTRATION WANTS THESE PROVISIONS TO CONTINUE WITH SOME MODIFICATION, AS YOU'VE HEARD. WHAT'S YOUR REACTION?

>> MY REACTION IS THAT I'M WITH HER ON THE CONTINUATION. WHERE I HAVE A PROBLEM IS THE MODIFICATIONS THEY'VE AGREED TO.

>> Woodruff: AND SPELL THAT OUT.

>> SURE. WHAT THEY'VE DONE IS TO SAY THAT THE GOVERNMENT CAN'T CONTINUE TO KEEP THESE -- SEND THE LIST OF NUMBERS WITH NO IDENTIFYING INFORMATION AS TO THE CORE OR THE CONTENT -- THE CALL OR THE CONTENT BUT RATHER HAVE THE CARRIERS KEEP THAT INFORMATION. THE METADATA IS SIMPLY A RECORD OF A NUMBER THAT'S CALLED -- A NUMBER THAT CALLS IT AND THE LENGTH OF THE CALL AND THE DAY OF THE CALL. THAT'S ALL THE METADATA CON ZIPS OF. THERE'S NO CONTENT AND NO IDENTIFICATION OF PEOPLE. WHAT THAT CAN BE USED FOR IS IF A SUSPECT NUMBER IS IDENTIFIED AND A COURT CONCURS, THEN THEY CAN RUN THAT NUMBER AGAINST THIS DATABASE OF NUMBERS TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER A TERRORIST HAD EITHER BEEN CALLED BY OR HAS CALLED A NUMBER IN THE UNITED STATES. THAT'S THE ONLY PURPOSE IT'S PUT TO THAT'S THE ONLY WAY THAT IT'S USED. THAT INFORMATION IN THE HANDS OF THE GOVERNMENT IS READILY ACCESSIBLE. IF YOU RELY SIMPLY ON THE CARRIERS TO HOLD IT THEN THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN THIS LEGISLATION FOR THEM TO KEEP IT AT ALL AND IN FACT, IT'S VERY EASY TO IMAGINE THEM COMPETING IN ELIMINATING OR SCRUBBING THIS INFORMATION IN SHORT ORDER OR IN OFFERING PLANS THAT DON'T REQUIRE THEM FOR BUSINESS REASONS TO KEEP THE METADATA.

>> Woodruff: BUT AS WE HEARD, JAMES BAMFORD LISA MONACO ACKNOWLEDGED THERE IS CRITICISM OF THIS OUT THERE, THE PRESIDENT DECIDED TO MAKE THIS MODIFICATION, TO SAY YOU HAVE TO GO TO A COURT IF YOU WANT TO GET ACCESS TO THIS PHONE METADATA. YOUR CONCERN IS THAT EVEN THAT IS NOT ENOUGH OF A WAY OF PROTECTING PEOPLE'S PRIVACY.

>> I THINK THERE IS REALLY TWO ISSUES HERE, ONE IS WHETHER IT'S USEFUL OR NOT. YOU'VE HAD THE COURTS, FIRST OF ALL, DECLARE ILLEGAL JUDGE LEON AND THE U.S. DISTRICT COURT IN WASHINGTON CALL IT IRRELEVANT. THE APPEALS COURTS SAID IT'S ILLEGAL. SECOND OF ALL, IS IT USEFUL? YOU'VE HAD THE PRESIDENT'S REVIEW BOARD COME OUT AND SAY THERE'S NOTHING USEFUL THAT WILL COME OUT OF IT. THE BIPARTISAN PRIVACY GROUP CAME OUT A FEW MONTHS AGO AND SAID THEY NEVER FOUND ANYTHING USEFUL THAT'S COME OUT OF IT. IF YOU LOOK BACK, THE N.S.A. HAD ANOTHER PROGRAM, IT WAS THE IDENTICAL PROGRAM EXCEPT IT WAS FOR EMAIL. EVERYBODY WHO SENT AN EMAIL WOULD BE -- WHO YOU SENT IT TO AND WHERE IT CAME FROM AND SO FORTH WOULD BE A -- A RECORD WOULD BE KEPT ON IT. THEY GOT RID OF THAT BECAUSE THEY WERE USELESS AND I THINK THEY SHOULD DO THE SAME THING WITH THIS PROGRAM.

>> Woodruff: MICHAEL MUKASEY GIVEN WHAT JAMES BAMFORD SPELLED OUT, GIVEN SUGGESTS AS TO WHETHER THERE IS ANY VALUE TO THIS PROGRAM, WHY CONTINUE IT?

>> WELL, IT IS NOT AT ALL USELESS. IN POINT OF FACT, IT IS USED TO ASSEMBLE INTELLIGENCE. IT IS NOT A CRIME SOLVING TOOL PRINCIPALLY, ALTHOUGH IT HAS SOLVED CRIMES INCLUDING EXPOSING THE PLOT TO BLOW UP THE NEW YORK CITY SUBWAYS. BUT IF YOU ASKED HOW MANY PLOTS IT'S STOPPED, YOU'RE ASKING THE WRONG QUESTION. YOU SHOULD BE ASKING WHAT'S THE VALUE OF BITS OF INTELLIGENCE GATHERED AND USED WITH OTHER BITS OF INTELLIGENCE THAT ARE AVAILABLE TO BUILD A PICTURE OF WHAT IT IS THAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR AND OF VARIOUS CIRCLES OF PLOTTERS AND NETWORKS OF PLOTTERS. AS FAR AS COURTS HAVING FOUND IT UNLAWFUL, THE FACT IS THAT THE COURT HAS CONSIDERED THIS MORE THAN 40 TIMES AND FOUND IT LAWFUL EACH TIME. THE FACT IS THAT THERE ARE DISTRICT JUDGES FOUND IT AWFUL, ONE COURT OF APPEAL THAT ACTED AND TWO OTHERS THAT IS HAVE THE ISSUE BEFORE THEM THAT HAVEN'T SPOKEN.

>> Woodruff: LET ME PUT IT TO YOU, JAMES BAMFORD, GIVEN WHAT THE COURTS HAVE SAID AND THE QUESTION HE RAISED ABOUT THE ABILITY THIS GIVES THE GOVERNMENT WHETHER METADATA OR THE METADATA WITH THE COURT'S PERMISSION, IT'S SOMETHING THAT IS NEEDED TO FIGHT TERRORISM.

>> EVERYBODY THAT'S LOOKED AT THIS SAID IT'S VIRTUALLY USELESS. THE N.S.A. ORIGINALLY CAME UP AND SAID THERE ARE ORIGINALLY 44 DIFFERENT AREAS WE WERE ABLE TO STOP TERRORISTS. IT CAME DOWN TO ONE INCIDENT THAT ENDED UP BEING USEFUL AND THAT WAS FINDING A TAXI DRIVER IN SAN DIEGO THAT SEND $8,000 TO A GROUP IN SO MALL. I CAN'T THAT'S THE ONLY THING THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SHOW SINCE 2001 THAT THIS PROGRAM HAS PRODUCED IN TERMS OF INTELLIGENCE. SO NO, IT IT ISN'T. THE SECOND ISSUE IS THE PROBLEM OF TRUST FROM THE AMERICAN PUBLIC. WE'VE HAD THE RELENTLESS EAVESDROPPING PROGRAM THAT WAS ILLEGAL A VIOLATION OF FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE ACT. THE ONLY WAY WE FOUND OUT ABOUT IT WAS THROUGH WHISTLE BLOWERS. THE SAME THING WITH THIS PROGRAM HERE. IT'S ONLY THROUGH EDWARD SNOWDEN WE ENDED UP KNOWING ABOUT THIS AND I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF LEGITIMACY TO PEOPLE BEING SKEPTICAL THE GOVERNMENT CLAIMING THIS IS SO VALUABLE.

>> Woodruff: WHAT ABOUT THE THE QUESTION OF TRUST MICHAEL MUKASEY?

>> THERE ARE 33 PEOPLE WHO HAVE ACCESS TO THIS ONLY UNDER THE OBSERVATION OF WHAT YOU MIGHT CALL A TRIFECTA, A COURT. THEY'RE UNDER THE EXECUTIVE SUPERVISION THEY HAVE AND THE OVERSIGHT OF AT LEAST TWO COMMITTEES OF CONGRESS. THAT'S ALL THREE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT. THE INFORMATION ITSELF, AGAIN, CONSISTS ONLY OF NUMBERS. TODSENT CONSIST OF ANY OTHER IDENTIFYING INFORMATION AND THERE'S NOTHING THAT CAN BE DONE UNLESS AND UNTIL A NUMBER -- A SUSPECT NUMBER TRIGGERS THE USE OF IT.

>> Woodruff: LET ME GIVE YOU THE FINAL WORD, JAMES BAMFORD, ON THIS. WE SHOULD POINT OUT THE PRESIDENT BACKED OFF ON THE RIDGE PATROL VISION WHICH IS COLLECTING ALL METADATA ON ALL PHONE RECORDS.

>> YES, THE U.S.A. FREEDOM ACT I THINK IS A VAST IMPROVEMENT. THE QUESTION IS WHETHER IT'S A VAST IMPROVEMENT ENOUGH AND THAT'S AN ISSUE DEBATED NOW. THE QUESTION IS WHETHER IT'S THAT OR NOTHING AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S GOING TO BE DECIDED SUNDAY.

>> Woodruff: JAMES BAMFORD AND MICHAEL MEW MUKASEY, WE THANK YOU BOTH.

>> Ifill: TEMPERATURES IN INDIA SOARED TO OVER 115 DEGREES TODAY IN SOME PLACES, PUSHING THE COUNTRY'S HEAT WAVE DEATH TOLL ABOVE 1,400 PEOPLE. NEWSHOUR CORRESPONDENT WILLIAM BRANGHAM HAS MORE.

>> Brangham: EVEN FOR A NATION ACCUSTOMED TO HEAT WAVES, THIS ONE HAS BEEN ESPECIALLY TOUGH. FOR ALMOST A WEEK, NOW NEAR RECORD TEMPERATURES HAVE MADE DAILY LIFE MISERABLE. SOME ROADS IN NEW DELHI LITERALLY MELTED IN THE SUN. TWO PROVINALSES IN THE SOUTHERN PART OF THE COUNTRY HAVE BORNE THE BRUNT. THEIR HOSPITALS WERE FULL OF VICTIMS OF THE HEAT. GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS HAVE ASKED PEOPLE NOT TO VENTURE OUTSIDE IF THEY CAN AVOID IT AND DRINK FLUIDS CONSTANTLY. IT'S BEEN PARTICULARLY HARD IN THE POORER REGIONS OF THE COUNTRY WHERE SPOTTY OR NONEXISTENCE LEK TRIES PHI PUTS THE IDEA OF FANS OUT OF REACH. THIS TIGER AT A NEW DELHI ZOO WAS ONE OF THE FA FIND SOME RELIEF. I TALKED TO "TIME MAGAZINE"'S NIKHIL KUMAR AND ASKED HIM ABOUT THE RISING DEATH TOLL AND WHO SPECIFICALLY WAS AFFECTED BY THE COMPING TEMPERATURES.

>> THE VICTIMS OF THE HEAT HAVE BEEN THE ELDERLY AND PEOPLE WHO WERE FORCED TO GO OUT AND WORK IN THE HEAT. SO CONSTRUCTION WORKERS, OTHERS OF ELDERLY AGE AND HOMELESS PEOPLE, ACCORDING TO OFFICIALS, THEY MAKE UP THE BULK OF THOSE WHO DIED.

>> INDIA HAS HEAT WAVES ALMOST EVERY YEAR. HOW DOES THIS COMFIRE WHAT'S HAPPENED IN THE PAST?

>> SO THIS ONE IS MORE SEVERE THAN LAST YEAR. THE DEATH TOLL IN ANDHRA PRADESH IS SOMEWHERE AROUND DOUBLE SO FAR BUT THERE HAVE BEEN MORE SEVERE HEAT WAVES IN THE PAST. THE SAME STATE IN 2003 TO ABOUT 3,000 PEOPLE DIED BECAUSE TO HAVE THE HEAT WAVE AROUND THE SAME TIME AS THE HEAT WAVE THAT FOLLOWED THAT SUMMER IN EUROPE. SO YOU'RE PROBABLY RIGHT HEAT WAVES ARE A REGULAR OCCURRENCE. ONE THING THAT HAS HAPPENED IS THAT OVER THE LAST FEW DECADES ACCORDING TO CLIMATE EXPERTS THE FREQUENCY AND SEVERITY HAVE INCREASED.

>> Reporter: HERE IN THE UNITED STATES WHEN WE HAVE HEAT WAVES, THE GOVERNMENTS ISSUE ALERTS AND OPEN UP COOLING CENTERS SO PEOPLE GET A BREAK FROM THE HEAT. WHAT HAS THE INDIAN GOVERNMENT BEEN DOING TO TRY TO ALLEVIATE THE SUFFERING?

>> THE RESPONSE HAS BEEN VERY MUCH STATE BY STATE. THERE ARE CERTAIN PARTS TO HAVE THE COUNTRIES, A CITY IN THE STATE OF ANDHRA PRADESH HIT BY A HEAT WAVE IN 2010, FOLLOWING THAT THEY PUT A HEAT WAVE A ACTION PLAN INTO EFFECT TO WARN PEOPLE AND TEACH THEM HOW TO DEAL WITH IT. THAT'S NOT THE CASE EVERYWHERE. THAT'S MORE AN EXCEPTION THAN THE RULE. BUT THE RESPONSE IS IT'S VERY MUCH DEPENDS ON WHERE YOU ARE. IT'S NOT VERY WELL CORD MADE FROM THE -- COORDINATED FROM THE CENTER. IT'S AT THE STATE LEVEL.

>> Reporter: HOW HOW HAS THE PUBLIC RESPONDED?

>> THE PEOPLE MOST AFFECTED, THE POOR, OFTEN ELDERLY, THERE ARE OFTEN PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE THAT MUCH POWER SO THE MOST VULNERABLE PEOPLE IN SOCIETY ARE AFFECTED BY THIS WITH SOME REGULATOR. SO THERE HAVE BEEN VARIOUS DISCUSSIONS BEGUN, YOU THINK SEE IT ONLINE AMONG SOME PEOPLE ABOUT SHOULD THIS BE CLASSED AS A NATURAL DISASTER AND THE RESPONSE COORDINATED AS WITH OTHER LARGE CALAMITY.

>> Brangham: IS THERE ANY IDEA WHEN A RELIEF MIGHT COME?

>> THE MONSOON IS EXPECTED TO HIT THE INDIAN MAINLINE AROUND THE END OF THIS MONTH. BUT THIS IS A LONG COUNTRY AND IT WILL TAKE A FEW DAYS FOR IT TO SPREAD AROUND DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, TO SAY THE LEAST. IN NEW DELHI, FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN THE TEMPERATURE ON THE 26 OF MAY HIT ABOUT 114 FAHRENHEIT, WE'RE NOT EXPECTING SUSTAINED RELIEF UNTIL EARLY JUNE, THE 3rd OF JUNE, ACCORDING TO WEATHER FORECASTERS. SO IT'S GOING TO TAKE SOME TIME. IT WILL STILL BE A FEW DAYS BEFORE WE GET SOME SUSTAINED RELIEF AROUND THE COUNTRY AND LONGER THAN A FEW DAYS FOR THE REST OF THE COUNTRY.

>> Brangham: NIKHIL KUMAR "TIME MAGAZINE" IN NEW DELHI, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Ifill: PRESIDENT OBAMA'S SIGNATURE IMMIGRATION PROPOSAL SUFFERED A MAJOR BLOW THIS WEEK, WHEN A FEDERAL COURT REFUSED TO ALLOW HIS PLAN TO TAKE IMMEDIATE EFFECT. IT WOULD GRANT WORK PERMITS AND DEPORTATION PROTECTION TO MILLIONS OF UNDOCUMENTED RESIDENTS. 26 STATES SUED TO STOP THAT EXECUTIVE ACTION. THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT DECIDED NOT TO APPEAL DIRECTLY TO THE SUPREME COURT, BUT WILL TRY TO MAKE ITS CASE TO AN APPEALS COURT IN JULY. BUT FOR NOW, EVERYTHING IS IN LIMBO. HERE TO DISCUSS THAT STATE OF AFFAIRS IS ALAN GOMEZ, WHO COVERS IMMIGRATION REPORTER FOR "USA TODAY," AND STEPHEN LEGOMSKY, PROFESSOR OF LAW AT WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY IN SAINT LOUIS. PROFESSOR LEGOMSKY, HOW BIG A SETBACK IS THIS COURT DECISION FOR THE ADMINISTRATION?

>> IT'S A TEMPORARY SETBACK. THE GOCHT APPEALED THE JUDGE'S INJUNCTION BUT RECOGNIZING THAT APPEALS CAN TAKE A LONG TIME TO DECIDE, THE GOVERNMENT ASKED THE COURT OF APPEALS IF IT WOULD AT LEAST TEMPORARILY STAIRNLG JUDGE HANNAH'S DECISION UNTIL THE COURT HAD A CHANCE TO DECIDE THE APPEAL. SO THE OPINION ON TUESDAY IS A DECISION BY A 2-1 VOTE NOT TO GRANT THE TEMPORARY STAY. HOWEVER, THE APPEALS COURT HAS ANNOUNCED JUST TODAY THAT IT PLANS TO HEAR ORAL ARGUMENTS ON THE MAIN APPEAL ON JULY 10 AND THE GOVERNMENT, OF COURSE, IS HOPING THE COURT WILL HAND DOWN A DECISION AS SOON AFTER WHAT AS POSSIBLE AND IF IT DOES WE COULD HAVE A DECISION IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS AND THE THE SETBACK WILL PROVE TO BE NOT TOO TERRIBLE.

>> Ifill: ALAN GOMEZ, YOU SPENT A FAIR AMOUNT OF TIME TALKING TO PEOPLE WHO GET THEIR HOPES UP AND DOWN ABOUT THE PRESIDENT'S PLAN FOR IMMIGRATION REFORM. HOW IS THIS AFFECTING THEM?

>> IT'S ANOTHER LIKELY BIG HIT FOR THEM. IT WAS BACK IN FEBRUARY WHEN JUDGE HANEEN IN BROWNSVILLE, TEXAS PUT THE FIRST STOP ON THIS PROGRAM. HE DID IT A DAY BEFORE IT WAS SUPPOSED TO GO INTO EFFECT. IMAGINE YOU HAD THOUSANDS OVERUNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY WHO HAS BEEN COLLECTING PAPERS, FIGURING OUT WHAT THEY NEEDED TO APPLY FOR THE PROGRAM AND JUST THE DAY BEFORE IS WHEN THE PROGRAM GOT BLOCKED. SO THIS IS ANOTHER BIG BLOW TO THEM. AS THE PROFESSOR MENTIONED THERE WILL BE HEARINGS IN JULY BURKS WHATEVER COMES FROM THAT THE OTHER SIDE IS EXPECTED TO APPEAL TO THE SUPREME COURT. SO IT COULD BE FROM THE END OF THE YEAR OR BEGINNING OF NEXT YEAR BEFORE WE GET A FINAL RESOLUTION OF WHAT GOES ON.

>> Ifill: THE 26 DAYS TO FILE SUIT, WHAT ARE THE ARGUMENTS.

>> ONE IS A TECHNICAL PROCEDURAL ARGUMENT. THERE IS THE ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURAL ACT THAT SAYS CERTAIN GOVERNMENT RULES HAVE TO GO THROUGH A FAIRLY ELABORATE PROCESS, WE NOTIFY THE PUBLIC GET INPUT AND MAKE A FINAL DECISION. THE ISSUE IS WHETHER THIS CASE FALLS INTO AN EXEMPTION FOR CERTAIN DISCRETIONARY RULES AND WE ALSO ARGUE THE PRESIDENT DOESN'T HAVE THE CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY TO STOP THE ENFORCEMENT PRIORITIES THAT HE HAS. TWO COURTS HAVE ALREADY REJECTED THOSE ARGUMENTS BUT JUDGE HANNAH ACCEPTED THEM.

>> Ifill: BUT WHAT IS THE STRATEGY WHINED NOT TAKING IT TO COURT IMMEDIATELY AND A WHAT STRIDES ARE THE ADMINISTRATION WILLING TO TAKE IN THE JULY APPEAL.

>> WE HAVE TWO TRACKS GOING ON. THE FIRST IS THE OVERALL MERITS OF THE CASE WHETHER THE PRESIDENT HAD THE POWER TO DO IT. THE SECOND ONE WAS TO HOLD IT IN PLACE AND STOP THE PROGRAM WHEN THE FIRST ONE RAN THE COURSE. THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT DECIDED TO FOCUS ON IS THIS LEGAL THE BROADER QUESTION. IN THEIR MINDS THEY THINK THEY WANT THE COMPLETE AND TOTAL RESOLUTION. THEY DON'T WANT TO TEMPORARILY START THE PROGRAM AND STOP IT AGAIN IF ANOTHER COURT RULES THE ENTIRE PROGRAM IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL. THEY'RE TRYING TO GET A FINAL RESOLUTION SO IF AND WHEN THE PROGRAM GOES INTO EFFECT THE MILLIONS OF UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS WHO ARE APPLYING WILL BE CONFIDENT THEY APPLY AND THE PROGRAM WILL CONTINUE AND NOT BE STOPPED BY A COURT DOWN THE ROAD.

>> Ifill: WHEN THE WHITE HOUSE PUT OUT THE STATEMENT YESTERDAY IN REACTION TO THE COURT'S RULING THEY SAID THE COURT MISINTERPRETED THE FACTS AND LAW. WHICH FACTS AND LAW ARE WE TALKING ABOUT IN FROM THE WHITE HOUSE POINT OF VIEW?

>> THE ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURE ACT, THAT WAS THE BASIS FOR JUDGE HANNAH'S DECISION, EVERYTHING TURNS ON WHETHER TRUE DISCRETION IS BEING EXERCISED. THE JUDGE DECIDED BECAUSE THERE IS A FAIRLY HIGH APPROVAL RATE FOR THE CASES, ABILITY 95%, IT MUST BE TRUE NO DISCRETION IS EXERCISED. THE GOVERNMENT POINTS OUT IF YOU ARE UNDOCUMENTED AND THERE IS SOMETHING NEGATIVE IN YOUR BACKGROUND THE LAST THING WE'LL DO IS INITIATE CONTACT WITH THE GOVERNMENT AND SAY HERE IS MY NAME, ADDRESS AND HISTORY AND FINGERPRINTS SO YOU CAN DO A BACKGROUND CHECK ON ME AND YOU'RE MORE UNLIKELY TO PAY $460 FOR SOMETHING THAT WON'T BE RECEIVED. THIS IS A VERY SELF-SELECTED POPULATION.

>> Ifill: YOU'RE IN FLORIDA WHERE THERE ARE TWO CANDIDATES FOR PRESIDENT WHO HEAL HALE FROM THERE. THEREWHERE DOES THAT STAND TONIGHT?

>> THE LONGER THE CASE GOES THROUGH THE COURTS, THE MORE IT BECOMES A 2016 PRESIDENTIAL ISSUE. JEB BUSH, MARCO RUBIO ARE BOTH FROM HERE AND THEY LIKE EVERY OTHER REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE ARE VERY MUCH OPPOSED TO WHAT THE PRESIDENT DID IN TRYING TO PROTECT THE UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS THROUGH HIS EXECUTIVE ACTION. HOARVETION HILLARY CLINTON CAME UP -- HOWEVER, HILLARY CLINTON CAME UP STRONGLY SUPPORTING AND SAYING SHE WANTED TO PROTECT EVEN MORE UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS. SO IF YOU GET A RULING SOMETIME THIS YEAR, BASICALLY THE REPUBLICANS WILL HAVE LAID DOWN THEIR THOUGHTS ON THIS AND IT WILL COME AT A TIME WHEN A LOT OF HISPANIC VOTERS WILL BE TRYING TO MAKE UP THEIR MIND ON WHO THE CANDIDATE IS AND REPUBLICANS PUSHING HARD TO BLOCK THE PRESIDENT'S PLAN TO PROTECT UNDOCUMENTED RESIDENTS AND IT WON'T HELP THEM WITH THE HISPANIC VOTING POPULATION.

>> Ifill: ALAN GOMEZ AND STEPHEN LEGOMSKY, THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH.

>> Woodruff: FOR MORE THAN TWO DECADES, DOCTORS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO PINPOINT WHEN IS THE RIGHT MOMENT TO START PEOPLE DIAGNOSED WITH H.I.V. ON ANTIRETROVIRAL DRUGS. THE DRUGS HAVE BEEN EXTRAORDINARILY IMPORTANT IN EXTENDING LIFE AND KEEPING H.I.V. AT BAY. BUT THEY CAN BE EXPENSIVE AND DIFFICULT TO TOLERATE. NOW, FEDERAL HEALTH OFFICIALS SAY INDIVIDUALS SHOULD BE PUT ON THOSE DRUGS AS SOON AS THEY ARE DIAGNOSED OR LEARN THEY ARE INFECTED. THE ANNOUNCEMENT WAS MADE AFTER A LARGE CLINICAL TRIAL WAS STOPPED BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE FOR THE DRUGS WAS SO OVERWHELMING. EVEN SO, THAT PRESENTS A BIGGER PROBLEM. FEWER THAN 40% OF ADULTS AROUND THE WORLD GET THE DRUGS THEY NEED. WE LOOK AT THIS WITH DR. ANTHONY FAUCI OF THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF HEALTH, WHOSE INSTITUTE SPONSORED THE TRIAL AND MADE THE ANNOUNCEMENT. DR. FAUCI, WELCOME BACK TO THE "NewsHour".

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

>> Woodruff: IT'S BEEN KNOWN FOR SOME TIME IT'S IMPORTANT TO GET THESE DRUGS TO PEOPLE DIAGNOSED WITH H.I.V. WHY IS THIS NEW FINDING THAT IT'S ESSENTIAL TO DO IT EARLY DIFFERENT?

>> WELL, BECAUSE IT'S A DEFINITIVE CLINICAL TRIAL BY COURT EXPERT OPINION OR COMMON PRACTICE, WE ALL KNEW IT WAS GOOD TO START EARLY TO BENEFIT THE PERSON, BUT POLICIES OF WHEN YOU'RE GOING TO RECOMMEND STARTING THERAPY AND POLICIES EVERYWHERE FROM W.H.O. TO THE --

>> Woodruff: TO THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION.

>> -- THE DEFINITIVE DECISION TO START PEOPLE ON THERAPY AS SOON AS YOU KNOW THEY'RE INFECTED DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THEIR RESPONSE IS, BECAUSE IT'S HIGHLY BENEFICIAL. WE KIND OF THOUGHT THAT BUT DIDN'T FOR SURE. NOW WE KNOW IT'S FOR CERTAIN IF YOU START EARLIER RATHER THAN WAITING FOR THE IMMUNE SYSTEM TO LESSON IN FUNCTION AND GET A LITTLE DAMAGED, THAT'S NOT A GOOD THING. THE PEOPLE DO MUCH BETTER WHEN YOU START THEM OFF EARLY.

>> IN LAYMAN'S TERMS AND VERY QUICKLY, WHAT IS IT THE TRIALS SHOWED THAT WASN'T CLEAR?

>> IT WAS CALLED A RANDOMIZED TRIAL. IT SHOWED WHEN YOU TOOK PEOPLE INFECTED WITH HIGH CD4 COUNTS WHICH IS THE LEVEL OF THE LYMPHOCYTE THAT INDEPENDENCE CATTLE THE LEVEL OF YOUR FUNCTIONAL, IF YOU START THEM RIGHT AWAY VERSUS WAITING TILL THE TIME THEY GET TO A CURRENTLY RECOMMENDED LEVEL TO START THERAPY, WHO DOES BETTER? THE ONES WHO WAIT OR THE ONES WHO GET STARTED RIGHT AWAY IS THIS AND WITHOUT A DOUBT, THE STUDIES SHOWED DEFINITIVELY THAT STARTING RIGHT AWAY IS A GREAT BENEFIT TO THE PERSON.

>> WE MENTIONED IN ALLUDING TO THIS DISCUSSION THAT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR SOME TIME ABOUT ACCESS, NOT ONLY WHO CAN TOLERATE, BUT CERTAINLY THE EXPENSE, THE AVAILABILITY, HOW MUCH URGENCY DOES THIS ADD TO THAT?

>> WELL, THIS ADDS A DEGREE OF SCIENTIFIC RATIONALE, SCIENTIFIC BASIS, EVIDENCE BASIS TO MAKE A DIFFICULT DECISION BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO COST RESOURCES THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO BE MUCH MORE AGGRESSIVE IN SEEKING OUT PEOPLE, VOLUNTARILY TESTING THEM, GETTING THEM LINKED TO CAIRND GETTING THEM ON THERAPY. THAT'S NOT EASY. BUT THE YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE A POLICY DECISION TO DO THAT YOU WANT TO DO IT BASED ON SOLID, SCIENTIFIC DATA, AND THAT'S THE REASON WHY THE COMMUNITY IS VIEWING THIS TRIAL AS BEING SO IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT GIVES A FIRM, SCIENTIFIC REASON TO MAKE AN IMPORTANT POLICY DECISION.

>> Woodruff: SO WHO IS GOING TO BEAR THE RESPONSIBILITY NOW FOR COMING UP WITH THE FUNDS COMING UP WITH THE RESOURCES TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN?

>> IT'S GOING TO BE A GLOBAL THING. FOR EXAMPLE, I MEAN, THIS IS A GLOBAL PANDEMIC. THERE ARE NOW 36 MILLION PEOPLE LIVING WITH H.I.V. THE MAJORITY IN DEVELOPING WORLDS, SUB SAHARAN AFRICA. SO THERE WILL BE COUNTRY INVOLVEDS THE W.H.O. WITH THEIR RECOMMENDATION. IF THE W.H.O. COMES OUT NOW AND MAKES A RECOMMENDATION TO START EVERYONE AS SOON AS YOU FIND OUT THEY'RE H.I.V. INFECTED THAT WOULD BE AN INCENTIVE FOR INDIVIDUAL COUNTRIES TO MODIFY THEIR POLICIES, THEIR HEALTH POLICIES IN THEIR OWN COUNTRIES BECAUSE, IN CERTAIN PLACES, THEY WON'T PAY FOR THE ANTI-REROUGH RE-- ANTI-RETROVIRAL IF IT'S GIVEN AT A CERTAIN LEVEL. SO IT'S A GREAT ADVANTAGE FOR PEOPLE TO START EARLY THAT'S AN IMPORTANT INCENTIVE FOR A VARIETY OF GROUPS COUNTRIES, ORGANIZATIONS, ET CETERA.

>> Woodruff: HOW MUCH PRESSURE DOES IT PUT ON THE U.S. AND THE U.S. GOVERNMENT? OR DOES SPHIT.

>> WELL I THINK IT DOES. I WOULDN'T SAY IN THE SENSE IT PUTS PRESSURE, BUT NEW DECISION MAKING WHEN PEOPLE SIT DOWN AND SAY WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO VIS-A-VIS THE RECOMMENDATION YOU WANT SOLID SCIENTIFIC BASIS. SO IF GOOD SCIENCE AND EVIDENCE IS PRESSURE THEN IT'S PRESSURE.

>> Woodruff: AT THIS POINT WHAT DO YOU DO? IN YOUR POSITION AT N.R.A.H., WHAT HAPPENS NOW TO GET THE WORD OUT? WE'RE DOING A NEWS INTERVIEW, BUT WHAT ELSE DO YOU HAVE TO DO?

>> WHAT HAPPENS IS THIS IS ALREADY WIDELY KNOWN BECAUSE THE NETWORKS IN THE COMPANY OF PEOPLE WHO TAKE CARE OF PATIENTS ARE VERY, VERY EXCITED ABOUT THIS FINDING. IT WILL BE PUBLISHED IN A HIGH-RANKING JOURNAL. YOU HAVE TO BE SURE THAT IT'S IN ONE OF THE BEST MEDICAL JOURNALS AND BE DISSEMINATED, THAT INFORMATION.

>> Woodruff: AND THE HOPE IS PEOPLE WHO HAVE H.I.V., 60% ARE NOT ON THE DRUG.

>> RIGHT. WE'RE HOPING THIS WILL BE A SOLID, SCIENTIFIC FOUNDATION AND BASIS TO PUSH TO GET PEOPLE ON THERAPY MUCH EARLIER, NOT ONLY TO SAVE THEIR OWN LIVES, BUT WHEN YOU PUT SOMEONE ON THERAPY, YOU LOWER THE LEVEL OF VIRUS SUCH THAT IT MAKES IT VERY DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO INFECT OTHERS. SO YOU GET A A TWO FER FOR IT, YOU HELP SOMEBODY'S HEALTH AND HELP THEM FROM INFECTING OTHERS. GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> Ifill: THE CORRUPTION SCANDAL SURROUNDING SOCCER AND ITS GOVERNING BODY, FIFA, TRIGGERED A SECOND DAY OF FALLOUT. FIFA'S PRESIDENT, LONG UNDER SCRUTINY HIMSELF, RESISTED CALLS FOR HIS RESIGNATION. BUT THERE WERE SIGNS THAT SUPPORT FOR HIS LEADERSHIP IS ERODING, AND THE GAME ITSELF HAS BEEN THROWN UNDER A CLOUD. HARI SREENIVASAN HAS THE STORY.

>> Sreenivasan: A MUSICAL FANFARE HERALDED THE ARRIVAL OF FIFA PRESIDENT SEPP BLATTER ONSTAGE TODAY, AT THE WORLD SOCCER ORGANIZATION'S ANNUAL CONGRESS IN ZURICH, SWITZERLAND BUT WITH FIFA REELING AMID A MASSIVE CORRUPTION SCANDAL BLATTER STRUCK A GRIM TONE.

>> THESE ARE UNPRECEDENTED AND DIFFICULT TIMES FOR FIFA. ACTIONS OF INDIVIDUALS, IF PROVEN, BRING SHAME AND HUMILIATION ON FOOTBALL AND DEMAND ACTION AND CHANGE FROM US ALL.

>> Sreenivasan: THE U.S. HAS INDICTED NINE TOP FIFA OFFICIALS ON CORRUPTION CHARGES. SWISS POLICE ARRESTED SEVEN OF THEM AT HOTEL IN ZURICH YESTERDAY. THE CASE INVOLVES MORE THAN $150 MILLION IN BRIBES OVER DECADES FOR MARKETING AND OTHER RIGHTS TO SOCCER TOURNAMENTS. TODAY, WITH HIS LEADERSHIP UNDER SEVERE SCRUTINY, BLATTER DEFLECTED BLAME.

>> I KNOW MANY PEOPLE HOLD ME ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ACTIONS AND REPUTATION OF THE GLOBAL FOOTBALL COMMUNITY, WE, OR I, CANNOT MONITOR EVERYONE ALL OF THE TIME.

>> Sreenivasan: BLATTER DID SAY IT'S HIS JOB TO "FIND A WAY FORWARD." TOMORROW, HE WILL STAND FOR ELECTION TO A FIFTH TERM AS FIFA PRESIDENT, BUT MANY HAVE CALLED FOR A DELAY IN THAT POLL. BLATTER'S ONLY CHALLENGER: JORDANIAN PRINCE ALI BIN AL HUSSEIN. THE HEAD OF UEFA, EUROPE'S MAIN SOCCER BODY, SAID MOST OF HIS COUNTRIES PLAN TO VOTE AGAINST BLATTER.

>> ( translated ): PEOPLE ARE TIRED. PEOPLE NO LONGER WANT A PRESIDENT, WHO I LIKE I HAVE ALWAYS SAID THAT IT'S IMPORTANT FOR FIFA TO BE STRONG AND TODAY FIFA IS NOT STRONG.

>> Sreenivasan: THOSE COMMENTS JOINED A DRUMBEAT OF OTHER CALLS FOR NEW BLOOD AT THE TOP OF THE ASSOCIATION.

>> THESE REVELATIONS HAVE DRAGGED THE GAME'S REPUTATION INTO THE MUD. THE TIME HAS CLEARLY COME FOR CHANGE AND WE WILL OFFER

>> Sreenivasan: SWITZERLAND HAS OPENED ITS OWN PROBE INTO POSSIBLE CRIMINAL MISMANAGEMENT IN THE AWARDING OF THE 2022 WORLD CUP TO QATAR, AND THE 2018 WORLD CUP TO RUSSIA. TODAY, RUSSIA SAID THERE'S NO RISK IT WILL LOSE THE TOURNAMENT, AND BLATTER FOUND A FULL-THROATED DEFENDER IN PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN. HE SAID THE ARRESTS WERE MERELY AMERICAN MEDDLING IN OTHERS' BUSINESS.

>> ( translated ): WE CAN ASSUME THAT SOME OF THEM MAY HAVE VIOLATED SOMETHING, I DON'T KNOW. BUT IT IS CLEAR THAT THE U.S. HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT ANYWAY. THOSE OFFICIALS ARE NOT U.S. CITIZENS, AND IF SOME EVENT INDEED HAPPENED, IT HAPPENED NOT IN UNITED STATES TERRITORY. THIS IS YET ANOTHER BLATANT ATTEMPT TO EXTEND ITS JURISDICTION TO OTHER STATES.

>> Sreenivasan: MEANTIME, VISA BECAME THE FIRST MAJOR, WORLD- CUP SPONSOR TO THREATEN TO LEAVE ITS DEAL WITH FIFA, IF THE ORGANIZATION DOESN'T TAKE SWIFT AND IMMEDIATE STEPS TO ADDRESS THE ISSUES.

>> Woodruff: NOW TO A STORY ABOUT A HIGH-PROFILE, AND UNUSUAL, C.E.O., WHO'S OWN PHILOSOPHY AND UNIQUE LIFE EXPERIENCE HAS INFLUENCED THE WAY THINGS OPERATE DAY TO DAY INSIDE THE COMPANY. ECONOMICS CORRESPONDENT PAUL SOLMAN HAS THE STORY, PART OF OUR ONGOING REPORTING "MAKING SENSE," WHICH AIRS EVERY THURSDAY ON THE NEWSHOUR.

>> Reporter: AETNA INSURANCE #57 ON THE FORTUNE 500, STUNNED CORPORATE AMERICA RECENTLY WHEN IT HIKED ITS MINIMUM WAGE TO $16/HOUR. IT WAS A QUIRKY MOVE BY A QUIRKY C.E.O.: MARK BERTOLINI, MOTORCYCLE ENTHUSIAST, ONE-TIME HIPPIE, TWO-TIME COLLEGE DROPOUT, WHO ACED THE G.M.A.T. EXAM ON A LARK, WHICH LED TO A CORNELL M.B.A., AND A CAREER IN HEALTH INSURANCE. THIS C.E.O. MANAGES BY WALKING AROUND SLOWLY AND MINDFULLY, ACTUALLY PRACTICING WALKING MEDITATION, AND ATTENTIVELY LISTENING TO HIS EMPLOYEES.

>> THIS INCOME INEQUALITY ISSUE WAS RATTLING AROUND IN MY HEAD. I MEAN, I CAME FROM A FAMILY THAT WAS NOT, YOU KNOW, WE SOMETIMES DIDN'T HAVE INSURANCE. MY DAD WORKED HALF TIME, MY YOU KNOW, MY MOTHER WAS A PART-TIME NURSE. AND SO, I HAD BEEN PUSHING THE TEAM ON IT, BUT I WAS GETTING THIS SORT OF YOU KNOW, WE'RE RUNNING A COMPANY, YOU KNOW.

>> Reporter: YEAH.

>> THIS IS A, WE'RE YOU KNOW, A CAPITALIST ENTERPRISE. WE'RE A COMMERCIAL ENTERPRISE.

>> Reporter: DID THEY KNOW THAT YOU WERE A HIPPIE IN THE...

>> OH YEAH.

>> Reporter: ...'70s?

>> WELL, KINDA. WE'RE NOT THE FIRST COMPANY TO REALLY MAKE THIS KIND OF INVESTMENT. I MEAN, PATAGONIA. THERE'S A BOOK OUT ABOUT IT, RIGHT? "LET MY PEOPLE GO SURFING," RIGHT? AND...

>> Reporter: YEAH. HIPPIE COMPANY, YES?

>> WELL, IT'S NOT BEING A HIPPIE. IT'S BEING A GOOD PERSON. I MEAN, YOU KNOW, WHAT HAVE WE FORGOTTEN ABOUT THE '70S THAT WE ALL OF A SUDDEN AS BUSINESS PEOPLE COME INTO THE COMMUNITY AND SAY, "WELL, THAT WAS REALLY COOL BACK THEN, BUT NOW I'M AN ADULT?"

>> I ACTUALLY SHOWED PEOPLE ONCE, AND WHEN I, WHEN WE WERE TALKING ABOUT CHANGE, I SAID TO THEM, "IF YOU THINK CHANGE IS BAD, LOOK AT YOUR HIGH SCHOOL PICTURE." AND I PUT MINE UP ON THE STAGE. AND EVERYONE WENT, "OH MY GOD!" (LAUGHTER) THEY, THEY GOT A GLIMPSE. I MEAN, I DIDN'T TALK ABOUT ALL OF IT, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE THINGS THAT YOU DON'T TALK ABOUT IN POLITE COMPANY.

>> Reporter: SO, AREN'T THEY A LITTLE SKEPTICAL OF YOU?

>> I DON'T THINK PEOPLE ARE SKEPTICAL. I THINK PEOPLE APPRECIATE THE AUTHENTICITY, ACTUALLY. I THINK PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR AUTHENTIC LEADERS THESE DAYS. AND BEING YOURSELF, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, I PUT THIS TIE ON FOR YOU TODAY, BY THE WAY. SO...

>> Reporter: I APPRECIATE IT.

>> I DON'T WEAR, I DON'T WEAR TIES TO WORK. (LAUGHTER) AND I DON'T SHAVE.

>> Reporter: AS HIS TWITTER FEED SUGGESTS, BERTOLINI, AS C.E.O. OF A MAJOR HEALTH CARE COMPANY ISN'T EXACTLY BELOVED BY ALL OF HIS EMPLOYEES. BUT HE ANSWERS THEM. AS HE ANSWERS UNHAPPY CUSTOMERS.

>> I'M NOT THE MOST LOVED PERSON ON THE PLANET. PEOPLE ASSUME THEY UNDERSTAND WHO I AM BY WHAT I DO.

>> Reporter: IN FACT, A NEAR- DEATH EXPERIENCE IN 2004 LED BERTOLINI TO MAKE BIG CHANGES IN HIS PERSONAL LIFE AND AT THE COMPANY.

>> I BROKE MY NECK SKIING. I DETACHED THE NERVE ROOT FOR MY ARM, THAT CONNECTED IT TO MY SPINAL CORD. AND SO IT'S SORT OF LIKE THE TROUBLED SIBLING OF THE BODY, IT DOESN'T OPERATE AS WELL AS IT SHOULD.

>> Reporter: AND ALMOST DIED RIGHT?

>> THEY GAVE ME LAST RITES IN THE HELICOPTER ON THE WAY TO THE, THE HOSPITAL. WHEN I HAD THAT ACCIDENT, I COULDN'T ENGAGE IN MY PHYSICAL ACTIVITY THE WAY I HAD BEFORE, AND I STARTED ENGAGING IN YOGA AS A PHYSICAL PRACTICE, BUT VERY QUICKLY FOUND OUT THERE WAS SOMETHING BROADER TO IT. AND, AND THAT IT WAS ACTUALLY HELPFUL FOR MY PAIN. AND, STARTED TO GET INTO MEDITATION, STARTED TO STUDY THE UPANISHADS AND THE BHAGAVAD GITA AND A LOT OF THE SCRIPTURES ASSOCIATED WITH YOGA, THE YOGA SUTRAS. AND VERY QUICKLY CAME TO THIS CONCLUSION THAT THIS HAD A HUGE IMPACT ON MY ABILITY TO LEAD, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, THE ABILITY TO CONTROL MY SYMPATHETIC NERVOUS SYSTEM WHICH HAD A DIRECT TIE TO THE PAIN IN MY ARM.

>> Reporter: SO, YOUR ARM WOULD BE HURTING ALL THE TIME?

>> MY ARM HURTS ALL THE TIME NOW. IT HURTS RIGHT NOW. IT NEVER STOPS HURTING. BUT IT'S THE LEVEL OF PAIN THAT IS ASSOCIATED WITH IT IS DEPENDENT ON HOW I MANAGE MY SYMPATHETIC NERVOUS SYSTEM. SO, I CAME TO WORK ONE DAY, AND I SAID, "YOU KNOW WHAT? I THINK WE SHOULD DO MEDITATION AND YOGA AT WORK." AND EVERYONE WENT, "UHHH!" YOU KNOW? THE EYE ROLL, RIGHT? AND IT'S BECAUSE THE C.E.O. DOES YOGA AND MEDITATION, WE'VE ALL GOT TO DO YOGA AND MEDITATION.

>> NOW BRING YOUR FOCUS TO THE CENTER OF YOUR CHEST. AS YOU INHALE IMAGINING THE BREATH COMING FROM THE CENTER OF YOUR CHEST AND EXPANDS OUTWARDS.

>> Reporter: SO BERTOLINI ORDERED A STUDY TO SEE IF MEDITATION AND YOGA WOULD DAMPEN THE STRESS LEVELS OF 239 EMPLOYEE VOLUNTEERS.

>> AND WE SAW DRAMATIC DROPS. 50% PERCENT DROPS IN CORTISOL LEVELS AND HEART RATE VARIABILITY. WE SAW A $3,000 REDUCTION IN THEIR HEALTHCARE COST THROUGH THE NEXT YEAR. WE SAW 69 MORE MINUTES OF PRODUCTIVITY A MONTH.

>> Reporter: AND EMPLOYEE TESTIMONIALS WERE REVEALING.

>> MY MARRIAGE HAS BEEN SAVED, MY CHILDREN WERE WILD, I'VE ENGAGED THEM IN THIS PRACTICE, MY HOUSEHOLD IS MUCH MORE QUIET. WE HAD A PERSON WHO WAS GOING TO KILL THEMSELF, AND YOU KNOW I'VE DECIDED NOT TO DO IT. PEOPLE LOST WEIGHT. I MEAN, IT WAS JUST LIKE, OH MY GOSH! IF YOU KNOW, IF A PROGRAM THAT COSTS $190,000 TO DO, COULD SAVE JUST ONE LIFE, WOULDN'T THAT BE WORTH IT?

>> Reporter: BY NOW, MORE THAN 13,000 EMPLOYEES OUT OF A TOTAL OF 49,000 HAVE TAKEN PART. THE MOST RECENT FREE 10-WEEK YOGA SESSION AT AETNA'S HARTFORD HEADQUARTERS WAS OVERSUBSCRIBED WITHIN HOURS.

>> THE INTENTION IS JUST TO FEEL OR SENSE THE BODY, TO NOTICE SENSATIONS.

>> Reporter: WHILE ONLINE MINDFULNESS CLASSES HAVE ALSO PROVEN POPULAR.

>> JUST PRACTICING LETTING BE.

>> Reporter: THERE ARE WEIGHT LOSS PROGRAMS.

>> I'VE GOT THESE 10 EXTRA POUNDS THAT I JUST CAN'T GET RID OF.

>> Reporter: AND HEALTH SCREENINGS. ALL HOLD THE PROMISE OF PAYING OFF, FOR WORKERS AND COMPANY ALIKE.

>> THE FIRST YEAR AFTER WE DID THE PROGRAM, OUR HEALTHCARE COSTS ACTUALLY DROPPED SEVEN AND A HALF PERCENT AS A COMPANY. AND I HAVE TO THINK A PART OF OUR SUCCESS SINCE THEN, AS A COMPANY, AND NOW WHAT WE'VE DONE AS AN ORGANIZATION AND THAT WE'RE GROWING, WE'VE BEEN GROWING NOW FOR THREE CONSECUTIVE YEARS, IS PART OF THAT.

>> Reporter: LET'S SEE HOW THE COMPANY DOES NOW THAT HE'S TAKING IT IN A NON-TRADITIONAL DIRECTION. THIS IS ECONOMICS CORRESPONDENT PAUL SOLMAN, REPORTING FROM BOSTON, AS MINDFULLY AS I CAN MANAGE, FOR THE PBS NEWSHOUR.

>> Woodruff: NOW, THE LATEST ADDITION TO THE NEWSHOUR BOOKSHELF. ONE TERRIBLE DAY IN OSLO, TWO SEPARATE INCIDENTS LEFT 77 PEOPLE DEAD AND SHOOK THE COUNTRY TO ITS CORE. THAT JULY DAY IN 2011 IS THE FOCUS OF JOURNALIST ASNE SEIERSTAD'S NEWEST BOOK, "ONE OF US: THE STORY OF ANDERS BREVIK AND THE MASSACRE IN NORWAY." JEFFREY BROWN TALKED TO HER RECENTLY AT BUSBOYS AND POETS, A BOOKSTORE AND RESTAURANT IN THE D.C. AREA.

>> Brown: ASNE SEIERSTAD, WELCOME TO YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Brown: I WANT TO START WITH A BIG QUESTION BECAUSE YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT ONE TROUBLED INDIVIDUAL. YOU'VE ALSO LOOKED AT A LARGER SOCIETY AND ITS CHANGES. WAS IT NECESSARY TO DO BOTH TO SEE WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY?

>> OH, DEFINITELY. AS THE TITLE INDICATES, ONE OF US. MAYBE THE BOOK IS ALSO ABOUT WHAT MADE HIM A TERRORIST. OF COURSE PERSONAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL REASONS, BUT COULD ALSO BE POLITICAL REASONS FOR BECOMING A TERRORIST. SO IT'S THREE STORIES IN THE BOOK WHAT MADE ANDERS BRIEVIK GO TO THE ISLAND AND DO WHAT HE DID. AND THEN THE BROADER PICTURE IN NORWAY.

>> Brown: SO YOU DOCUMENT HIS TROUBLED CHILDHOOD, SOCIALLY AWKWARD OBSESSION WITH VIDEO GAMES, TURNING TO RIGHT WING BLOGS. WERE YOU ABLE TO GET INSIDE HIS HEAD?

>> LUCKILY, I WASN'T ABLE TO. THAT'S NOT POSSIBLE. HE HAD A VERY WELL-DOCUMENTED LIFE. EARLY DOCUMENTS FROM THE 1980s. HE WROTE A DIARY. I FOLLOWED TEN WEEKS OF THE COURT AND I GOT ACCESS TO INTERROGATION OF HIM HIS FAMILY AND FRIENDS SO ON. AND HE ALSO WROTE PEOPLE LETTERS. SO HE WROTE THIS MATERIAL. IT'S THE LIFE OF REJECTION. HE WAS ALSO REJECTED BY THE VERY FAR RIGHT. SO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT MADE IT ABLE TO BE DOCUMENTED IT'S THROUGH HIS OWN LIFE.

>> Brown: AND THE QUESTION IN HIS TRIAL WHETHER HE WAS SEEN OR NOT. HE FOCUSED ANGER ON NORWAY'S PERMISSIVE SOCIETY. HE DIDN'T WANT TO BE SEEN AS INSANE. HE WANTED THE WORLD TO SEE HIM AS KNOWING EXACTLY WHAT HE'S DOING.

>> THAT WAS VERY IMPORTANT FOR HIM. HE TRIED TO PUBLISH A BOOK BUT NOBODY WAS INTERESTED. IT'S A MISHMASH TO READ. BUT HE CALCULATED HOW MANY PEOPLE DO I HAVE TO KILL IN ORDER TO BE READ. HE ENDED UP KILLING 77. SO, OF COURSE IF HE WAS THOUGHT A MAD MAN, HE WOULDN'T GET ANY FOLLOWERS. BUT IT SEEMS HE DOES HAVE THE ABILITY TO INSPIRE.

>> Brown: SO WHEN YOU USE THIS TERM "ONE OF US," HOW MUCH DID IT SHAKE THE PSYCHE OF THE COUNTRY? WHAT WERE THE AFTEREFFECTS?

>> WELL, IT DID SHAKE US A LOT BECAUSE WE HAVE THIS FEELING OF NOTHING WILL EVER HAPPEN TO US BECAUSE IT'S ALWAYS HAPPENING TO EVERYONE ELSE. THE FIRST QUESTION IS HE'S MAD OR HE'S SICK.

>> Brown: HE'S NOT ONE OF US IN THAT SENSE.

>> EXACTLY.

>> Brown: BUT, ON THE OTHER HAND --

>> THEN WE REALIZED THAT DOESN'T GET US ANYWHERE TO MAKE HIM JUST ANOTHER ONE OR THE OTHER.

>> Brown: WHAT ABOUT FOR YOU PERSONALLY? THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU'VE LOOKED AT YOUR OWN COUNTRY AND WRITTEN ABOUT IT. WHAT DID YOU SEE?

>> IT'S VERY DIFFICULT. I'VE AULD BEEN ON THE OUTSIDE, LOOKING IN. SUDDENLY I WAS GOING INTO THIS ONGOING STORY ABOUT OURSELVES. I WAS TRYING TO GET TO THE STORY, PEOPLE WHO NEVER HEARD ABOUT NORWAY SO I WAS TRYING TO LOOK AT MY COUNTRY WITH FRESH EYES. I SHOULD NOT CARE IF HE WAS ONE OF MY NEIGHBORS. IT'S A SMALL COUNTRY AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO TRY TO COME TO TERMS WITH.

>> Brown: THE BOOK IS "ONE OF US." THANK YOU VERY MUCH. ASNE SEIERSTAD.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Woodruff: ON THE NEWSHOUR ONLINE, HUMANS' MOST FAMOUS PRE- HISTORIC ANCESTOR MAY HAVE HAD A CROSSTOWN RIVAL, THAT'S ACCORDING TO A NEW BATCH OF FOSSILS FOUND IN ETHIOPIA. ARCHAEOLOGISTS BELIEVE THAT THESE PRIMATES ROAMED AFRICA ABOUT THREE-AND-A-HALF MILLION YEARS AGO, THE SAME TIME AS THE FOSSIL KNOWN AS "LUCY." SEE A VIDEO FROM THE EXCAVATION SITE, ON OUR HOME PAGE. THAT'S AT pbs.org/newshour.

>> Ifill: AND THAT'S THE NEWSHOUR FOR TONIGHT. I'M GWEN IFILL.

>> Woodruff: AND I'M JUDY WOODRUFF. WE'LL SEE YOU ONLINE, AND AGAIN HERE TOMORROW EVENING WITH MARK SHIELDS AND DAVID BROOKS. FOR ALL OF US HERE AT THE PBS NEWSHOUR, THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT.

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