The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

INTRO

ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. Here is the top of the day's news. The Federal Reserve Board has raised the discount rate to 9%, reinforcing the trend toward higher interest rates. Unemployment remained unchanged in March, but when up for black Americans. President Reagan has stepped up his attacks on critics in Congress for second-guessing his foreign policies. The space shuttle Challenger was launched flawlessly today on its most ambitious mission yet. Nicaragua accepted a French offer to clear mines laid by U.S.-supported rebels. Jim?

JIM LEHRER: We look at the job story tonight with a special focus on what today's numbers do not say about unemployment among blacks. We also explore the special problems Jesse Jackson's candidacy is presenting black officeholders and journalists as well as voters. Charles Krause gives the latest on demining harbors in Nicaragua, and Kwame Holman reports on what those erupting volcanoes are doing to people and things in Hawaii.

Another big interest rate went up today. The Federal Reserve Board late this afternoon raised its own, the so-called discount rate, the one it charges its major bank customers. The increase was a half a percentage point, up to 9%. That may not sound like much, but it is a significant move. It's the first time in three years the Federal Reserve has increased it at all, and it comes a day after the major banks raised their prime interest rate to 12%, the prime rate being what banks charge their major business customers. Wall Street economist David Jones, who was with us last night to analyze that increase, told us today the Federal Reserve's action further confirms his prediction of higher interest rates across the boards over the next few months. Robin?

MacNEIL: President Reagan today stepped up his attack on critics in Congress, accusing them of prolonging violence in Lebanon and encouraging Marxists in Central America. Making what the White House billed as an important foreign policy address, the President was speaking at the Georgetown Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. Yesterday, House Speaker O'Neill accused him of looking for scapegoats for his policies in Lebanon. The President said today it was the responsibility of congressional leaders as well as the White House to build bipartisan support.

Pres. RONALD REAGAN: If we're to have a sustainable foreign policy, the Congress must support the practical details of policy, not just the general goals. I believe that once we established bipartisan agreement on our course in Lebanon the subsequent secondguessing about whether I'd keep our men there severely undermined our policy. It hindered the ability of our diplomats to negotiate, encouraged more intransigence from the Syrians and prolonged the violence. Similarly, congressional wavering on support for the Jackson plan, which reflects the recommendations of the national bipartisan commission on Central America, can only encourage the enemies of democracy who are determined to wear us down. Unfortunately, many in the Congress seem to believe they're still in the troubled Vietnam era, with their only task to be vocal critics and not responsible partners in developing positive, practical programs to solve real problems.Military force, either direct or indirect, must remain an available part of America's foreign policy. But clearly the Congress is less than wholly comfortable with both the need for a military element in foreign policy and its own responsibility to deal with that element. Presidents must recognize Congress as a more significant partner in foreign policy-making and, as we've tried to do, seek new means to reach bipartisan, executive-legislative consensus. But legislators must realize that they, too, are partners. They have a responsibility to go beyond mere criticism to consensus-building that will produce positive, practical and affective action.

MacNEIL: The President's Georgetown audience sat silently through his speech and only applauded at the end. On Capitol Hill, the target of his criticisms, the reaction broke down along partisan lines.

Sen. RICHARD LUGAR, (R) Indiana: President Reagan has started a very useful dialogue. He's challenged the Congress to come to new terms with the responsibilities the Congress has claimed under the War Powers Act and to entertain the thought that with military power and with foreign diplomacy come responsibilities to work in a bipartisan way with the administration. The President has a good point, and furthermore, the President is surely on track in pointing to the dilemmas that come when many in Congress are uncomfortable with the use of military power as a part of diplomacy under any circumstances at any time. That simply will not work in diplomatic negotiations, nor will it work as a foreign policy to call only for diplomacy when, as a matter of fact, having military force often makes that diplomacy effective.

Sen. EDWARD KENNEDY, (D) Massachusetts: The President's statement is an outrageous attempt by the President of the United States to blame the Congress of the United States for the failures of this administration in American foreign policy. I favor a bipartisan foreign policy, but there cannot be a bipartisan foreign policy when we have the mistaken policy of this administration stationing the Marines in Lebanon. If the President of the United States had listened to the critics in the Congress, those American Marines would be alive today. There cannot be a bipartisan foreign policy towards Central America when this administration is committed to supporting right-wing dictatorships and death squads in Central America, and there cannot be a bipartisan foreign policy in arms control when we see the ever-increasing armament race continued by this administration in the failure of serious negotiations.

Sen. ALAN CRANSTON, (D) California: Ronald Reagan has a strange view of how the democratic system works if he thinks the way to promote democracy abroad is to try to intimidate Congress and muzzle democracy at home. This may be 1984, but we do not live underone-man rule in the United States. The presidency is not a dictatorship. I do not subscribe to the credo that when we have a trigger-happy President who is quick to resort to military action, Congress must say a loud "amen" to whatever he does. The President has his responsibilities and duties under the Constitution; we have ours in Congress. Black Unemployment

LEHRER: For a change there was no change in the unemployment rate. It was 7.8% nationally in February, and it was again 7.8% in March, according to government figures released today, as they are the first Friday of every month. It was the first time in six months the rate had not declined, and the AFL-CIO said it meant unemployment was stuck and called for government help. A White House spokesman said economic growth continues at a healthy pace. As always, as every month, the grimmest figures were for blacks: 16.6% overall, up 0.4% over the previous month, and a staggering 46.7% for black teenagers, an increase of three full percentage points over February, and that may not be all. Robin?

MacNEIL: That isn't all, according to the National Urban League. For some time this black advocacy group has been compiling its own unemployment data based on the Labor Department's official figures. To discuss them we have the Urban League president, John Jacob. What do you believe the true black unemployment rate is?

JOHN JACOB: Well, frankly, we believe the true black unemployment rate is some 29.7% --

MacNEIL: As opposed to 16.6%?

Mr. JACOB: As opposed to the 16.6. What the Bureau of Labor Statistics does is to also collect date on people that are labeled discourged and people who are working part-time when they want fulltime work. Now, when you consider the fact that there is a significant population of people who are unemployed but are not looking for work because they do not believe work was out there but would work if work were available, and factor that into it, and then factor into it those persons who are working part-time when they want fulltime work. You're talking about almost 30% unemployment. The figures break out something like some 1.9% who are unemployed, another -- 1.9 million who are unemployed, 1.6 million who are discouraged, and some 868,000 who are working part-time when they want fulltime work.

MacNEIL: Now, this is not a new phenomenon, this discouraged workers. There are plenty of white discouraged workers. What is special about black workers being discouraged?

Mr. JACOB: Well, what is special is the length of time of the unemployment, the depth of the unemployment. When you consider the fact that we have been facing double-digit unemployment among blacks for the past seven or eight years, it is a very significant figure that we're dealing with. When you consider the fact that -- when you look at the over-20 male unemployment for blacks versus whites, it is almost three times as many blacks unemployed in the over-20 category as whites. So that the overall impact is of high significance, particularly when we are only 12% of the population, but 40% of the discouraged workers.

MacNEIL: Why?

Mr. JACOB: Well, I think there are a combination of factors, one of which is that blacks find themselves in a mismatch with the marketplace. That's part of the problem. The other part of the --

MacNEIL: Let's stop on that for a moment. Explain that.

Mr. JACOB: Well, jobs that are out there for people, but people do not have the skills to match up with the jobs. That's part of the problem. Another part of the problem is that blacks clearly are the last to be hired and the first to be fired. Thirdly, there tends to be a problem because there are some people, particularly in the hiring process who have some problems hiring blacks for any number of reasons, particularly when you translate that to teenagers. They're intimidated by this "disadvantaged" population; they're fearful of hiring them. They think they're going to have lots of problems with them. And so they just don't want to deal with them. They'd rather not deal with them. And, as a result of that, we have significant disproportionate numbers of blacks who are unemployed.

MacNEIL: Is there an element of just outright discrimination in that, or is it just anxiety not to hire people who are going to require special care and special training?

Mr. JACOB: Oh, no. I think there is an element of discrimination in it. Now, clearly there are some who need special training.

MacNEIL: You're talking about private industry?

Mr. JACOB: I'm talking about private industry. Our data suggests to us that many of the issues that have been brought upon the scene -- for instance, take the issue of the subminimum wage. We have had programs where employers could be reimbursed for all of their costs, and they have not hired this population. And they have not hired this population because they're fearful of them, because they don't want to deal with it, because they think that this population is nothing but trouble. And so there is an element of fear, but there's also an element of racism associated with this action.

MacNEIL: How would you explain why, even in the official figures of people looking for work that the Labor Department gave today, black unemployment is going up when unemployment as a whole has remained static?

Mr. JACOB: Well, again I think that that has much to do with what the jobs are that are available and what the skills are for the people who are looking for those jobs. I think that I cannot engage in this discussion without factoring in the fact that race is a factor in the hiring of people, and further that we have a climate now that says it's all right to not hire this population. It is all right to not act affirmatively in dealing with this population. And that whole attitude has been fueled by some actions that have been taken recently.

MacNEIL: The -- it's commonly said that there is a level below which unemployment can't go, that there is structural or built-in unemployment. Do you subscribe to that, and how much of that do you believe affects the black population?

Mr. JACOB: Well, first of all, I think this country has to make a commitment to full employment. The definition presently for full employment is some 4% unemployment. Now, in recent years they have started factoring in this whole notion of structural unemployment and therefore justifying 7%, 8% unemployment. If that were true, white unemployment would be at the full employment level right now, because when you look at white males, white females, they are less than 6%. I would argue that we have to make a commitment to full employment at the 4% level. That reflects those people who are in transition. That reflects those people who have been laid off because of the reduction in those industries, but will, within a short period of time, return to work. If we accept the structural unemployment notion at 7% -- for instance, what is being bandied about -- recognizing that historically black unemployment has been some two to 2 1/2 percent higher, then what we are really doing is accepting some 14 to 16 percentunemployment for blacks, and I don't know of any dictionary that would define full employment in that context.

MacNEIL: Well, Mr. Jacob, thank you for joining us.

Mr. JACOB: Thank you for having me.

MacNEIL: Jim?

LEHRER: It was again mostly sweetness and light in the Democratic presidential campaign today. There were no new jabs among the three candidates, Walter Mondale, Gary Hart and Jesse Jackson, as all three campaigned in Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. Wisconsin holds party caucuses tomorrow to select 78 national convention delegates; Pennsylvania chooses 172 in its primary next Tuesday. The major target of all three today was President Reagan, who drew the majority fire last night in a televised debate from Pittsburgh staged by the League of Women Voters, moderated by political writer Elizabeth Drew of New Yorker magazine.Here are the best shots, each of the three Democrats took at Mr. Reagan.

WALTER MONDALE, Democratic presidential candidate: Every day now another rotten apple falls out of the tree in Washington, and the President is looking somewhere else. You cannot have public trust or effective government unless the people who occupy it sustain the highest standards of ethics and accountability. Last night I listened to the President describe his standard, [which] apparently is, you can stay in government, you can be the attorney general, provided you haven't been indicted and convicted of something.That's not the standard, not getting caught. It is an affirmative standard that elevates the public ethics and respect and the trust of the American people A President must do that.

Rev. JESSE JACKSON, Democratic presidential candidate: When Mr. Reagan came into office it was a $30-billion deficit.Now it's $200 billion and growing: a) a $750-bill tax break to corporations where they did not pay their share; then they have 90,000 corporations that made profit that did not pay any taxes. They must pay their share. That's a way.They must pay their share. On the other hand, $1.9 trillion military budget that's capital intensive, which means we have a kind of double hemorrhaging of the economy -- money going out of both ends and not coming back. Reagan has been guilty of a kind of reverse Robin Hood process -- taking from the poor and giving to the rich. That process must change.

Sen. GARY HART, Democratic presidential candidate: My view is that the freeze is a major contribution to the arms control debate. I think we have to go beyond it, not after it, and do a number of things all at the same time -- ban weapons in space, freeze the production of plutonium, stop proliferation of nuclear technology and materials to Third World nations to stop the horizontal arms race, set up a system whereby neither we nor the Soviets in a period of crisis start World War III. And I know that you agree with that. We will not do that, however, unless we defeat Ronald Reagan. I hate to keep bringing it back to that, but what frightens me the most about Ronald Reagan is not only dividing this society along economic lines, but the unrestrained four more years of a nuclear arms race that I believe would bring this world -- and I know you do, too -- right to the very brink of nuclear war and perhaps over that brink in a period of crisis or misunderstanding. This President frightens me to death.

LEHRER: Besides attacking President Reagan, the three also took the opportunity to debate an issue that is near and dear to the hearts of Pennsylvanians, the revitalization of their ailing steel industry.

Sen. HART: I don't think this country can be a leading economy in the world or an industrial power without a steel industry, without an auto industry, without a machine tools industry, and perhaps all political leaders and economists and others could agree on two or three other industries. We cannot. We cannot let our smokestack industries go offshore. Those are central to this nation's national security. So the President must tell the American people steel is key, autos are key, machine tools are key if for no other reason to re-employ unemployed people and to defend this country.

Mr. MONDALE: There's no question in my opinion that this nation cannot tolerate the disappearance of fundamental, basic industries like steel. The question is, how do we restructure them in a way that they could be competitive and be healthy again? The most key issue is, of course, bringing those deficits down, because the deficit doubles real interest rates, and that is just like a dagger in the heart of basic industry, and it's one of the reasons that Pennsylvania suffers 11% unemployment because, like so many other Midwestern states, including my own, it is basic industry.

Rev. JACKSON: When other governments will subsidize their industries to protect their workers' jobs and our government becomes insensitive to saving vital industries, we are in a very difficult competitive posture. As a matter of fact, we cannot compete. That's why at some level bailing Chrysler out made good judgment as a temporary gesture because our government has some obligation to save workers to keep them as tax producers as opposed to tax consumers. So one part of protecting that -- of moving from that deficit is our government must be sensitive enough to keep us in a competitive posture so we have fair trade as well as free trade. Covering Jesse

LEHRER: The latest polls show a close race between Mondale and Hart next Tuesday in Pennsylvania, but as in New York this week, how Jesse Jackson affects the black vote may be a key factor, and Charlayne Hunter-Gault has more on that. Charlayne?

CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: In Pennsylvania blacks account for only about 16% of the vote statewide, but the largest single concentration of black voters is in Philadelphia, where they account for 45% of the total Democratic registered voters. And while Jackson is going after this bloc of voters as he has in other places, black support is split. The most prominent black elected official not supporting Jackson is the city's first black mayor, Wilson Goode. He's supporting Mondale. Goode is in a delicate position, since all of the other black elected officials are supporting Jackson, and it was their support, along with the overwhelming support -- some 77% of the black community -- that helped put him in the mayor's seat last November. For a look at what all that means for the mayor and next Tuesday's primary in the state we have Acel Moore, a columnist for the Philadelphia Inquirer, who has been a close watcher of politics in Philadelphia for years. Acel Moore, how much will Jesse Jackson be hurt by Wilson Goode's support of Walter Mondale?

ACEL MOORE: I think that Jesse is going to do -- Reverend Jackson is going to do extremely well despite the support that the mayor has given -- the endorsement that the mayor has given to Walter Mondale. I think that the campaign of Reverend Jesse Jackson is as much of a crusade in the black community as it is a political movement. I think that Wilson Goode has made a political decision as mayor of, as he states, of the entire city, but I think that in political decisions in a crusade don't have much effect, and I think that's why Jackson has done well despite the polls, despite not having financial resources and the staff that the two other Democratic candidates have.

HUNTER-GAULT: Do you think he'll be able to do as well as he did in New York -- 26% in the state, 30-some percent in the city?

Mr. MOORE: The potential for that repeating itself in Pennsylvania is great.I'm well aware of the politics and the feeling in the eastern part of the state. I think the key to that will be the western part of the state and how effective Gary Hart is in talking to the people in those areas where the unemployment rate is so high outside of Philadelphia, talking about places like Johnstown and areas around Pittsburgh where the steel industry has been devastated.

HUNTER-GAULT: What kind of future -- what do you think the impact of Wilson Goode's endorsement of Mondale is going to have on his political future? I mean, given the fact that you say that you expect the vast majority of blacks to support Jackson and most of the elected officials there. I mean, is this going to hurt Goode?

Mr. MOORE: Well, on the short range I think that he is going to take some flak for it, but I think that on the long range and him making a political decision, and particularly if Mondale emerges as the Democratic nominee out of the convention in July, I think he's going to be in good stead.He is only in his fourth month of his administration, and I think that he is going to be judged by and large by the constituents on how good a job he does as mayor of the city of Philadelphia and dealing with those problems.

HUNTER-GAULT: Has there been much discussion about this? I mean, or -- among the political leaders, I mean. Is there some maybe tacit understanding among them that permits Goode to go that way while the rest of them go with Jackson?

Mr. MOORE: I think that among the political leaders there has been some discussion and, quite frankly, the leader of the black elected officials in Philadelphia, City Councilman Lucien Blackwell, when announcing that the black elected officials were overwhelmingly endorsing the candidacy of Reverend Jesse Jackson, indicated that he did understand what the political decision of Mayor Goode was. I think where you don't get an understanding is among the grassroot constituents who are involved emotionally in Reverend Jackson's campaign --

HUNTER-GAULT: And that could hurt the mayor, do you think?

Mr. MOORE: I'm sorry?

HUNTER-GAULT: That could hurt the mayor?

Mr. MOORE: I didn't hear that question?

HUNTER-GAULT: I said do you think that could hurt the mayor, the fact that the grassroots people don't see it quite the same way the leadership does?

Mr. MOORE: Well, I think that depends. I mean, you know, again I would like to reiterate what I said. I think on a short run it could hurt him. On a long run I think that he is going to be judged by hom he does as a chief executive officer of the city of Philadelphia.

HUNTER-GAULT: Okay, we'll come back. Jim?

LEHRER: Another issue has surfaced in the last few days involving Jesse Jackson that has to do with threats made by Black Muslim leader Louis Farrakhan against Washington Post reporter Milton Coleman. Coleman had reported Jackson's reference to Jews as Hymies and New York as Hymietown, and Farrakhan, a supporter of Jackson's, said in a radio speech that Coleman, who is black, should be punished for doing so.

LOUIS FARRAKHAN, Black Muslim leader [radio address]: I say why did not you all rise up and censure this Judas Uncle Tom, member of your class? But since you don't have the courage to do it, I will do it.I know the reason you won't do it is because the same rottenness that is in his house is also in your own. I said, but we're going to make an example of Milton Coleman. I'm going to stay on his case until we make him bear us this example for the rest of them. What do you intend to do to Mr. Coleman? At this point no physical harm. One day soon we will punish you with death.

LEHRER: Farrakhan said yesterday that he was not threatening Coleman's life and that the two are reportedly going to meet on Monday. Meanwhile, a debate has started over how Jackson as well as all others involved have handled this situation. One with opinions about the episode is Washington Post columnist Richard Cohen. First, how do you think of the way -- what do you think of the way Jackson has handled this situation?

RICHARD COHEN: Well, I think he's handled it very poorly. I think he has an obligation to condemn what Minister Farrakhan has said. It is -- if he says it is not a threat on his life, it is certainly damned close to it. He's threatening ostracism, and I've just heard it again. It seems to me like a threat on his life. That sort of stuff ought to be condemned. The minister is not just a supporter of Jesse Jackson that Jesse Jackson has no control over. He's a person that Jackson has enlisted in his campaign. He speaks at Jackson events. He has supplied bodyguards for Jesse Jackson. He is close to Jesse Jackson. He went to Jesse Jackson -- he went with Jesse Jackson to Syria when Jackson rescued or took out Lieutenant Goodman. He is somebody who is so close to Jesse Jackson that what he says obviously has an effect on Jesse Jackson. I think Jesse Jackson had an obligation to denounce those remarks.

LEHRER: Do you think that Coleman and the Post were right in originally publishing the remarks that Jackson made that caused Farrakhan to be so upset?

Mr. COHEN: Yeah, I think it's news. I think when a presidential candidate issues a racial slur that is news. If it was another presidential candidate or another high political figure and it had not been a black and it had been a white who said something about a black, that certainly would have been news. There are a number of examples of those sort of things happening in the past, and this is just another example of it.

LEHRER: Do you think that this thing is being handled differently by the press because it is Jesse Jackson and he is black?

Mr. COHEN: Well, Jesse Jackson is different. I mean, Jesse Jackson is a symbol. Someone earlier referred to him as the object of a crusade, and he certainly is that. I don't think he believes, I don't think anybody believes that he will wind up being the president of the United States. So to that extent he is given a certain different kind of treatment than a normal political candidate. On the other hand, also --

LEHRER: Different in what way, Richard?

Mr. COHEN: Well, different in the sense that Jesse Jackson says a whole lot of things that I call really aspirations and that are not political programs. If you ask him, "What do you mean by that?" you don't get an answer, and he's not asked that sort of thing. He isn't getting the kind of scrutiny that other candidates are getting, and in fact, in the debates Mondale goes after Hart, Hart goes after Mondale and Jackson has, in the past, played referee. It is as if these two acknowledge that Jackson is not going to be the nominee either.

LEHRER:Well, go ahead, finish your point about how the press plays it differently.

Mr. COHEN: Well, I think also the press is a little bit confused about what to do about a racist or a racial slur, whatever you want to call it, or an ethnic slur that comes from a black leader as opposed to comes from a white leader.I think if such a thing had been said, say, by Walter Mondale, by Gary Hart, it probably wouldn't have been in the 16th or 17th paragraph of the story, in which it originally occurred, but probably in the lead. There is a little bit of a double standard when it comes to Jesse Jackson for a whole lot of reasons, some of which I went into before, some of it I think because he's black and people don't know quite what do to about it. This is a new phenomenon in this country -- a black presidential candidate. So I think that it was handled differently.

LEHRER: And Hart and Mondale, while they denounce Farrakhan, have said absolutely nothing critical of Jackson about this. Do you think that's an indication also of the double standard?

Mr. COHEN: I think -- I don't know if that's an indication so much of a double standard. I think it's an indication of weakness on both their parts.

LEHRER: They're scared?

Mr. COHEN: I think they're scared. I think they don't want to lose any votes, and they're playing it extremely safe in this campaign.

LEHRER: Thank you. Charlayne?

HUNTER-GAULT: Acel, do you believe that Jesse Jackson should have denounced Minister Farrakhan right away?

Mr. MOORE: Well, I heard that he did denounce him. I don't know how immediate, but what I read was that he said he did not approve of it. Now, should he go further than what he said is another question.

HUNTER-GAULT: Well, should he?

Mr. MOORE: I don't think that if you -- if the question is should he chastise him, I don't know whether or not that is -- Mr. Jackson has the responsibility incumbent to do that. I think he should distance himself from that kind of thing, and for many people he has, for others he hasn't. I don't think that -- Mr. Farrakhan is not a member of the Jackson campaign staff, and I don't think that he is -- has any more influence than many other leaders who may even be closer. And certainly Mr. Farrakhan and his followers do not represent the masses of black people in America who are voting for Reverend Jackson.

HUNTER-GAULT: But you heard what Richard Cohen said. He said that Farrakhan was close to Jackson, he was enlisted by Jackson, he really is more than just a passing acquaintance and camp follower.

Mr. MOORE: I totally disagree with the conclusions drawn by Mr. Cohen on just about everything he said.

HUNTER-GAULT: Well, what about that specifically?

Mr. MOORE: That specifically, I don't agree that denouncing -- I don't, for one, believe that Reverend Jackson agrees that Mr. Coleman should be threatened. He said that he disagrees with that, and I cannot remember the exact quote. As to whether or not he should go further than that, I think there's some legitimate agreement -- disagreement over that.

HUNTER-GAULT: Mr. Cohen?

Mr. COHEN: Well, what Reverend Jackson said was that he couldn't agree, but it didn't fall on his shoulders. And I think it does fall on his shoulders. I mean, I think it falls particularly on his shoulders, but I think it falls on the shoulders of all political candidates to denounce what is -- what is a bald threat against a journalist for doing his job. And I don't think it's all that confusing. It seems rather simple to me. It's a threat and it's not right.

Mr. MOORE: I, for one, am against threats -- physical threats against anybody, and specifically journalists who are doing their job.I think it has a very chilling effect. And I don't think that -- I think everybody agrees on that. But as to the extent to which Mr. Jackson should go after saying that he had no control over Mr. Farrakhan, he, Mr. Farrakhan, did not make those statements at his direction. To that extent, I don't know how much further he should go. I think there is some disagreement over that though.

HUNTER-GAULT: Richard, how much further do you think he should go? I mean, do you think he should just drop Farrakhan from the campaign altogether, ask him to cease and desist or, I mean, what would you think an appropriate action would be that he hasn't taken up to this point?

Mr. COHEN: Well, a strong statement deserves a strong condemnation, and we haven't heard that yet from the Reverend Jackson. That's the first thing. And the second thing is, yes, I think that a man like that, who says those sorts of things, who threatens a reporter for doing his job, doesn't deserve to be in a political campaign. And if I was Jesse Jackson I would distance myself from that man and make sure that everybody knew that I disagreed in the strongest terms with what that man was saying.

HUNTER-GAULT: Acel, what do you think about Richard's point that Jesse Jackson -- there is a double standard in the coverage, in the scrutiny, in the approach, in part because he's black and in part because nobody really thinks he's going to, you know, get the nomination. Do you --

Mr. MOORE: The examples cited by Mr. Cohen does not prove his basic thesis. One, he was talking about how the candidates themselves are responding to questions.I think if anything, that if the media found anything negative in Mr. Jackson's character or anything about him that would -- in his private or public dealings, I think they would attack it with a vengenance. And I don't think there's any newspaper or broadcast license that would back off of anything like that just because Mr. Jackson is black.

HUNTER-GAULT: So you just totally --

Mr. MOORE: I have seen no evidence of that.

HUNTER-GAULT: You totally disagree with the double standard thing?

Mr. MOORE: Well, if it's a double standard, it may be applied the other way around.For example, there's no question in my mind that if Reverend Jackson was white and was as charismatic and good-looking as he is as a black man that he would be the frontrunner. I think that people's perceptions of color in America in 1984 are still colored by color, and I think you see a reflection of that in how things are covered.

HUNTER-GAULT: Very briefly, Richard, do you want to respond to that?

Mr. COHEN: I have no argument with the last part of what he said. Obviously, if he's saying that there's still bigotry in this country I don't disagree with that at all. But what I was saying earlier is during the debates the candidates themselves don't pay particular attention to Jackson. They don't see him as the man who's standing between them and the nomination.

HUNTER-GAULT: All right, well, I'm sorry we can't resolve this totally now, but thank you both, Acel Moore and Richard Cohen, for being with us. Robin?

MacNEIL: Former President Gerald Ford said today that President Reagan should not condone what he called carelessness by Reagan officials, and indicated he thought Edwin Meese should resign. Speaking at a news conference in Farmington, Connecticut, Ford said, "There have been more individuals than I would have liked who apparently have been careless in how they've handled certain activities. There's been a degree of carelessness that I don't think should be condoned." He recalled the case of Earl Butz, who resigned as Ford's secretary of agriculture after making racial jokes. Ford said Butz had done the right thing by stepping aside. Asked if this implied that Meese should do the same, Ford said, "That's a fair inference." Meese, nominated by President Reagan as attorney general, is being investigated by a special prosecutor.

There is a record number of earthlings circling the planet tonight following today's flawless launch of the space shuttle. Five American astronauts rode the Challenger into orbit this morning just a couple of hundred miles behind the Soviet space station carrying five Russians and an Indian. The 11th mission of the space shuttle blasted off right on schedule from Florida's Cape Canaveral.

NASA OFFICIAL: -- three, two, one . . . solid motor ignition and lift off! Lift off of Challenger and the first flight to repair a satellite in space. We have cleared the tower.

MacNEIL [voice-over]: This is considered the most daring mission to date for the space shuttle. It is climbing higher than ever before -- 290 miles above the earth -- carrying a record 11 tons' worth of scientific experiments.But what will put this mission in the history books is what the astronauts will try to do on Sunday. For the first time, they're going to try to pluck a crippled astellite from space and patch it up. The satellite is called Solar Max. It was sent up four years ago to study the sun and its mysterious flares. [on camera] But after just nine months it blew some fuses and broke down. Until now, if something went wrong with a satellite in space there was no way to fix it. But as we see in this report by correspondent Kwame Holman, NASA hopes this mission, which has been dubbed their service call in space, will change all that. Service Call in Space

NASA SPOKESMAN: Our job on this flight is to go into orbit, rendezvous with the the Solar Max spacecraft and, very simply, take the module off the spacecraft and put a new one on.

KWAME HOLMAN [voice-over]: Repairs in space are made possible largely by a new space tool, the gas-jet-powered, manned maneuvering unit, or MMU. This videotape shows the first test of the MMU during a shuttle mission in February. Thirty-three-year-old astronaut George Nelson, nicknamed Pinky, will use an MMU to fly to the broken satellite and stop its rotation. Astronaut Nelson's training for the Solar Max repair mission his included many hours at the Martin Marietta aerospace lab in Denver. This special underwear contains a network of tubes that circulate cool water, keeping the astronaut's body temperature normal during his maneuvers through space. Getting into the 70-pound spacesuit is hard to do in earth's gravity. In space they will float in. But the astronauts have to learn how to operate the MMU wearing the bulky suits. Here in the aerospace lab at Martin Marietta men, machines and computers simulate over and over again the flight of an MMU toward the slowly rotating mock-up of the broken Solar Max satellite. Here and on the real space flight astronaut Pinky Nelson has to coordinate his moving MMU with the rotating satellite. His task is to line up with a silver pin on the Solar Max and latch onto it with the MMU. When he does, the satellite will stop.

ASTRONAUT: Okay, I got to dock.

TRAINER: All right, gyro power cycle.

HOLMAN [voice-over]: After Pinky Nelson has stopped the rotating Solar Max, pilot Robert Crippen will maneuver the shuttle to about 30 feet from the satellite. The shuttle's remote manipulator arm will clamp onto the Solar Max and lift it into the shuttle's cargo bay where repairs will take place. One major risk in this mission stems from working in space without a lifeline to the shuttle.

GEORGE NELSON, astronaut: You are depending on your spacesuit for your life support. There's just one set of oxygen bottles and one motor that runs the fans and one battery, and you know, one bladder between you and a vacuum, and so there's a certain amount of risk involved in that. If we had a large tear in this suit it'd be catastrophic.

HOLMAN [voice-over]: If the repair mission works, it could be the beginning of a new age in space commerce and industry.

Mr. NELSON: This will change the mindframe of people in industry who are building satellites so that now, rather than building a satellite to be solely autonomous, one-shot deal and once it's launched you can't do anything for it, that they'll have in their mind during the design that this satellite may be repaired and that in the design they'll incorporate features that'll make the satellite easier to work on and more available to be repaired.

JAMES VAN HOFTEN, astronaut: I think it's a precursor to the work we'll be doing in a space station and large construction in space. It's a milestone, I think, in the manned space program. You know, in the very least we've saved about a $100 million satellite.

MacNEIL: If all goes well with the repair mission the astronauts will fly the shuttle even deeper into space to toss Solar Max into orbit where it can be useful once again. The shuttle is scheduled to return to earth next Thursday.

Baby Jane Doe, the handicapped infant whose parents fought off pressure for surgery to prolong her life, has gone home for the first time. The six-month old Long Island, New York, girl was born with severe disorders, including an exposed spinal cord, called spinal bifida. She became the focus of several state and federal court battles when her parents refused to permit surgery. The national right-to-life lobby lost a fight to force surgery. The Reagan administration lost the early rounds in the battle to force release of all medical records. The baby was taken home by her parents yesterday, but the hospital would not discuss her condition.

[Video postcard -- Continental Divide, Colorado]

MacNEIL: While political efforts to stop the fighting continued in Lebanon today, at least six people were reported to have been killed and 24 wounded in and around Beirut within the last 24 hours. Some of the fighting took place along the line dividing the city, and some in the mountains overlooking it.

In Poland, the government said it has reached a compromise with the Roman Catholic Church in the dispute over whether crucifixes may be hung in the public schools. At the school where the fight began, one crucifix will be hung in the reading room and the students will be allowed to wear crucifixes and display them on their desks.

In the West African republic of Cameroon two groups of the armed forces were reported to be fighting for control of the country today after a revolt by soldiers guarding the president's palace. According to sources in Paris, where events in the former French colony are watched closely, the guards revolted because President Paul Biya, who comes from the animist southern part of the country, ordered the removal of all the guards who come from the Moslem north.Late today a member of the Cameroon cabinet said in Paris it was impossible to tell from the conflicting reports coming out of the country whether the rebels or the loyalists were winning.

Jim? Nicaraguan Blockade

LEHRER: Two weeks ago Washington was all aglow in the warmth and ceremony of presidents Reagan of the United States and Mitterrand of France as they toasted and talked of their many mutual interests and affections. But today many had occasion to remember Mitterrand did point out then, almost as an aside, that there was some disagreement over Central America policy. That disagreement came dramatically to the surface with the release of a letter in Nicaragua. It's from French Foreign Minister Claude Cheysson, and it offers French assistance in clearing mines from Nicaragua's harbors. The mines were put there by contra guerrillas supported by the United States, and have caused damage to at least nine ships, including one Soviet tanker. This afternoon Nicaragua said it would accept French help to get rid of those mines. In Washington State Department spokesman John Hughes had this to say about the French offer.

JOHN HUGHES, State Department spokesman: We have raised our concerns with the French. We have all along been concerned with the large Soviet and Cuban military relationship with Nicaragua, and we would not favor any nation's contributing to Nicaragua's ability to export revolution with impunity.

LEHRER: Correspondent Charles Krause, as you regulars know, covers Central America for us. He's been nosing around on this story here in Washington today. Charles, the French say their offer is based solely on humanitarian reasons. Does that add up to you, based on what you found out today?

CHARLES KRAUSE: Well, there is not a lot of information. I should say, available in Washington about the French offer.But I think you could say is that the offer was made, according to the French, because humanitarian aid from Europe is not reaching the Nicaraguan people. And the French, as you pointed out, have a very different view of the situation in Central America and the reason for the political turmoil. They do not see it as a result of Cuban and Soviet influence. They are -- and I think that it would be fair to say that the French probably are concerned that an East-West confrontation could arise if the situation in Central America is not calmed down. And I think they see the possibility of another Soviet tanker or another Soviet ship being damaged by the mines in the Nicaraguan ports as the kind of thing that could lead to some sort of conflict between the United States and the Soviet Union.

LEHRER: How serious have those incidents in the harbor down there, just in terms of what damage they may be doing to the Nicaraguan economy, and also the possibility of just what you say the French fear might happen?

Mr. KRAUSE: Well, we were down there a couple of months ago, and before the mining actually took place -- and the Nicaraguan economy is in a very bad situation; there are shortages of food; the country depends on imports, many of them that come in by ship, really for its economic life as well as exports, because it obviously exports a lot of agricultural commodities to Europe and the United States. So the situation there is bad. I talked with a high-ranking diplomat at the Foreign Ministry in Managua today. He described the situation as desperate. He said the the Nicaraguans feel they have a pistol pointed at their head and that they will take assistance from whatever country offers it to clear the mines out of those ports. It would be as if New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Boston, New Orleans were blockaded in this country. It is very serious for them.

LEHRER: The U.S. response -- we heard what John Hughes said.Is there anything more to add to that?

Mr. KRAUSE: Well, not really. I can't say that there is. Clearly, the Reagan administration does not like the idea of the French clearing out those mines. It's interesting that at the same time Mr. Hughes says he has no idea who's putting the mines in there, but the Nicaraguans, of course, have said for some time the United States is engaged in economic blockade of Nicaragua in order to change the political situation there. I mean, officially the rationale is that this is all designed to stop the Nicaraguans from sending arms to El Salvador, to the guerrillas in El Salvador. But President Reagan said in his interview with The New York Times a week or so ago that in fact the Reagan administration would like some changes in the internal political situation in Nicaragua.

LEHRER: Well, I said, you know, in introducing all of this, that this is a matter of fact that those mines were put in there by the contra guerrillas who are being supported by the United States. There's no dispute about that, really, is there?

Mr. KRAUSE: Well, the contras have claimed that they did it, and nobody has claimed otherwise, other than the Nicaraguans who say that in fact it is the CIA rather than the contras who placed those mines there. I think without getting into that directly, it is a matter of fact that in order to place those kinds of sophisticated mines in the Nicaraguan ports, you would need some fairly sophisticated equipment to do it.

LEHRER: I hear you. Thank you, Charles. Robin? Unfriendly Neighbor

MacNEIL: For two weeks residents of Hilo, Hawaii's second largest city, have been wondering whether hot lava from Maneed una Loa volcano would drive them from their homes. Mauna Loa is the worlds largest active volcano. It sits some 20 miles from Hilo on the biggest island in the Hawaiian chain. Over the last 12 days the lava has crept to within four miles of the city outskirts. One stream has cooled and come to a standstill; another shifted direction yesterday, lessening the threat to Hilo. Kwame Holman has spent most of the week with the people of Hilo, finding out what it's like living with such an awesome neighbor.

KWAME HOLMAN [voice-over]: Hawaiians are accustomed to living with the threat of volcanos. Their other active volcano, Kilauwea, has erupted more than 40 times since 1960.But none of those eruptions has posed such a threat to the town of Hilo, whose outskirts lie just 20 miles from the lava's source. Residents in that area remain outwardly calm, yet many are also very concerned. In the beginning, Jim Ewart and his wife thought the flow might reach their home.

JIM EWART: The first few days we didn't know anything, and it seemed like, you know, from the maps that they were putting out in the paper, it was headed right straight for us.And it was pretty scary, you know, playing chicken with a lava flow isn't too fun.

JUDY EWART: For one thing, we have all of our papers, important papers, together, waiting at the door still. They've been sitting there for about a week now. We're a little bit closer contact with the children just in case there's an evacuation. The oldest one has been pretty upset by it, because he's very much attached to his home. And he doesn't like living the day-to-day feeling of whether or not we're going to have a home tomorrow.

HOLMAN [voice-over]: No one knows for sure where Mauna Loa's river of molten rock 1,500 feet wide at its leading edge, will eventually wander. Scientists can only say that the volcano's flow has slowed. The lava at the front has been stopping to form ponds, then surging forward again to form new ponds.

Dr. ROBERT DECKER, Hawaii Volcano Observatory: The pond that forms in here is quite large --

HOLMAN [voice-over]: Dr. Robert Decker is scientist in charge at the Hawaii Volcano Observatory. Decker holds a press conference every day to give the latest information on the lava's progress.

Dr. DECKER: Between 4 p.m. and 2 a.m. today this flow traveled from about here to here at a rate of approximately 300 feet per hour. But I'm going to put two question marks on that because the 2 a.m. location this morning was very difficult to make. The weather is marginal; we have not yet confirmed that.

HOLMAN [voice-over]: Decker has been at the volcano observatory since 1979. He was about to leave Hawaii to take another job on the very day Mauna Loa erupted. For him the eruption represents an information bonanza that he hopes will enable scientists to better predict eruptions. At the moment there is still a lot they don't know.

Dr. DECKER: I can't say whether it's going to stop today or several months from now, and that's frustrating. Even if we had absolutely complete information, I think there's an element of uncertainty. Nature is a complex not only process, but phenomena or structure, whatever you want to call it. Nature is complex, is what I'm trying to say. And she hides her secrets well. And so even if we had every bit of information we could, nature is always changing the rules a little bit.

HOLMAN [voice-over]: Hilo officials have decided for the time being not to challenge Mother Nature. Drastc measures such as building dikes or bombing the flow to divert it have been rejected as impractical or ineffective. Instead, they are devoting their efforts to keeping the public informed and preparing, if necessary, for evacuation. Harry Kim, Hilo's director of civil defense, is coordinating all of those efforts. He and his staff have been working around the clock since the eruption started.

HARRY KIM, Civil Defense Director: The eruption is still continuing at a steady strong rate; the flow is still headed in a general direction of Hilo.

HOLMAN [voice-over]: If the flow approaches a residential area, Kim will warn all residents. If it continues, he will order an evacuation 24 hours before the expected arrival of the lava. Downtown Hilo has not been hit by a lava flow in over a century, and scientists say this one does not pose an immediate threat. But Mayor Herbert Matayoshi is taking no chances.

HERBERT MATAYOSHI, Mayor of Hilo: Moving people, you know, and making things secure are not that easily done. It takes a long lead time to prepare. So this is why we're doing it now. But will it come into Hilo or won't come to Hilo I don't think anybody can say.

HOLMAN [voice-over]: The island of Hawaii is by far the largest of the eight that make up the Hawaiian chain. it was created by its volcanos. Evidence of their eruptions is everywhere, from the black volcanic sands of the islands' beaches to this almost surreal landscape created by a 1959 eruption of Kilauwea. Scientists have studied the erratic eruptions here since 1912, yet they still can't predict when they'll occur or how long they'll last. But for generations of native Hawaiians, the eruptions have a simple explanation rooted in Hawaiian folklore. Hawaiians believe the eruptions are not just natural phenomena but the deliberate creations of a fire goddess called Pele.

[on camera] According to legend the goddess Pele came to Hawaii from a far-off land. In an effort to build a permanent home, she dug fiery craters along the coasts of several islands, but each time she was thwarted by a sea goddess who flooded the craters and extinguished the fires. Finally, Pele fled here to the summit of Kilauwea volcano, where she found a home the sea goddess could not destroy.Hawaiians say she still lives here today.

[voice-over] Pat Branco has lived in Hawaii all her life. She, too, is a believer in Pele.

PAT BRANCO: Madame Pele has always been there. All our life she's been there. So we're brought up knowing her, and we just leave her alone. They say she's trying to get to the ocean. I don't know if it's true or not. That's quite a distance to the ocean.

Mr. EWART: There's a lot of marijuana grown on this island. The feeling is that Madame Pele doesn't like that very much. It's kind of sacred ground for her, and people say, of course, that the volcano is erupting so that she can rid herself of some of those marijuana farms.

HOLMAN [voice-over]: Earlier this week Mayor Matayoshi called on an Hawaiian elder to make an offering to appease the Goddess Pele. But for now the lava flow from Mauna Loa continues, and the people of Hilo wait to see where it will end.

MacNEIL: What may be the smallest electorate in the world today voted on whether to become the least populous nation. The people of the Cocos Islands in the Indian Ocean, total population, 350, have been ruled for a century by a British family given the islands by Queen Victoria. Today, 261 of them voted to join with Australia, 1,600 miles to the east, rather than become independent. The Cocos, a group of 27 coral atolls, have become an important refueling point for U.S. and Australian planes operating in the Indian Ocean.

Jim?

LEHRER: And to recap today's top stories, President Reagan blasted congressional critics of his policies in Lebanon and Central America. The Federal Reserve Board raised its discount rate to 9%; March unemployment figures showed an unchanged 7.8% jobless rate. The space shuttle Challenger took off from Florida today on schedule; no problems so far in its six-day mission. And Nicaragua says it accepts a French offer to supply a mine-sweeper to clean its harbors.

And now, to tie up one loose end in the news, earlier we talked about the friendly atmosphere in Washington when the French president visited two weeks ago. Even differences over Central America did not cool the warmth of the Reagan-Mitterrand talks. Today, after his foreign policy speech, President Reagan recalled the Mitterrand visit. He said he narrowly averted one incident that could have had the most undiplomatic of consequences.

Pres. RONALD REAGAN: I just in leaving want to give you a little experience that occurred, and could have been a diplomatic crisis, at the recent state dinner for President Mitterrand. Nancy and the president started toward their table in the dining room with everyone standing around their tables waiting for us.Mrs. Mitterrand and I started through the tables, a butler leading us through the people. And suddenly Mrs. Mitterrand stopped and she calmly turned her head and said comething to me in French, which unfortunately I did not understand, and the butler was motioning for us to come on, and I motioned to her that we should go forward, that we were to go to the other side of the room. And again very calmly she made her statement to me, and then the interpreter caught up with us. She was telling me that I was standing on her gown.

LEHRER: Good night, Robin.

MacNEIL: Good night, Jim. That's our NewsHour tonight. We'll be back on Monday. Good night.