The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer in Washington.

MR. MacNeil: And I'm Robert MacNeil in New York. After tonight's News Summary, we analyze the week's politics with Mark Shields and Marlin Fitzwater. Then after their meetings with President Clinton, Newsmaker interviews with F.W. DeKlerk and Nelson Mandela. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. LEHRER: President Clinton today approved the base closure commission's recommendations on closing 129 military bases, realigning 46 others. Mr. Clinton called for a $5 billion, five- year effort to help communities recovery economically from losing the bases. He said there would be an average grant of $1 million for each community affected by a major base closing. He spoke in the White House briefing room this morning.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Even with all these aggressive efforts, the closing of a military base, as with any large employer, will inevitably be traumatic for the host community, and I cannot promise that every job will be saved. But this will be a great test for our nation. Over the past 50 years, these communities have literally hosted millions of American men and women in uniform who are defending our freedom. When we needed them, these cities and towns did their duty. When they need us today, we can do no less. And I am confident that we will be able to make dramatic progress.

MR. LEHRER: The closing decisions are final unless Congress votes to reject them within 45 working days. The nation's unemployment rate rose to 7 percent last month. The .1 percent rise was the first monthly increase this year. The Labor Department said the manufacturing sector lost 53,000 jobs in June, reflecting continued cutbacks in the defense industry. Robin.

MR. MacNeil: The Immigration Service today decided to detain Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman, the Islamic cleric linked to terrorism in New York. He surrendered this afternoon to authorities in New York. The blind Egyptian Sheik is the spiritual leader of suspects in the World Trade Center bombing last February and a second group alleged to have planned other attacks in New York. Officials said Sheik Rahman had not been charged in the alleged conspiracy but would be held for violating immigration laws.

MR. LEHRER: Mistakes were made in the firing of seven White House Travel Office employees last May. That was the conclusion of an internal report released today by White House Chief of Staff Mack McLarty and Budget Director Leon Panetta. McLarty said four White House staff members have been reprimanded for making the mistakes which included leaving the appearance of pressuring the FBI to investigate the Travel Office. He said there were significant management problems in that office which needed to be fixed, but he said, "We clearly did it the wrong way." Senate Republican Leader Bob Dole said the internal investigation was not enough. He called on the attorney general to appoint an independent counsel. We'll have more on the story right after this News Summary.

MR. MacNeil: President Clinton announced today that the United States was withdrawing its objection to a $140 million loan package to Vietnam by the International Monetary Fund, but the President said any further steps towards normalizing relations between the two countries would depend on Vietnam's help in resolving the POW- MIA issue. On April 27, 1994, South Africa will hold its first multi-racial election, ending 350 years of white domination. That date was set today in Johannesburg by political negotiators. We have a report narrated by David Symonds of Worldwide Television News.

DAVID SYMONDS, WTN: The election date was announced by black and white politicians from 26 groups, but not all were in favor. The six conservative parties tended to walk out before the formal closing of the conference. ANC's Sec. General Cyril Ramaphosa was pleased with the date, saying democracy was on trial for the country. He was backed by the government but opposed by the right wing. The conservatives wanted a draft constitution to be agreed before an election date. The walkout is not expected to upset negotiations. The move towards democracy and the end of apartheid was signaled by ANC Leader Nelson Mandela's release from 27 years in prison in 1990. But the mood of optimism set by his release was not to last. Black factional fighting began, and in one of the worst massacres to follow the new era of political freedom, 28 ANC demonstrators were shot dead by Ciskei homeland troops. There's continued fighting between the Inkatha Zulus and the ANC. And now with the approach of multi-racial elections, white extremists are using stronger methods to try to derail democracy.

MR. MacNeil: Today's announcement came today when ANC Leader Mandela and President F.W. DeKlerk are visiting the United States. This afternoon, the two met with President Clinton and earlier said they expected a quick end to sanctions against their country. We'll have separate NewsMaker interviews with the two later in the program. There was heavy fighting between U.N. forces and Somali gunmen in Mogadishu today. At least three Italian peacekeepers and one Somali were killed. Eleven other Italians and four Somali policemen aiding the soldier were wounded. The U.N. forces came under sniper fire during a weapons search in an area controlled by warlord Mohamed Farrah Aidid. Haiti's military Junta has agreed to the restoration of democracy in that Caribbean nation. In 1991, democratically elected President Jean Bertrande Aristide was ousted in a military coup. Today's agreement came during U.N.-brokered talks in New York. Aristide could return to Haiti by October 30th.

MR. LEHRER: There was more heavy rain in Southern Minnesota today, and that poured more water into the already swollen Mississippi River. Residents and National Guard troops have been erecting sandbags to protect homes and businesses in Wisconsin, Illinois, Iowa, and Missouri. Commercial traffic has been banned along a 400-mile stretch from Minnesota to St. Louis. Transportation Sec. Federico Pena surveyed the situation today. The Weather Service is predicting more rain into next week.

MR. MacNeil: Actor Fred Gwynne has died. He had a 40-year career on the Broadway stage and in movies. He's best known for two television comedy roles, as a bungling policeman in "Car 54 Where Are You," and as Herman in "The Munsters." Gwynne died at his home near Baltimore with complications from pancreatic cancer. He was 66. That's it for the News Summary. Still ahead on the NewsHour, Shields and Fitzwater, and DeKlerk and Mandela FOCUS - POLITICAL WRAP

MR. LEHRER: Our weekly political analysis is first tonight. Topic A is today's development in the so-called "Travelgate" story. White House Chief of Staff Mack McLarty said an internal review confirmed mistakes were made six weeks ago when seven White House Travel employees were fired. Those mistakes included trying to persuade the FBI to conduct an investigation. McLarty spoke to reporters this afternoon in the White House briefing room.

MACK McLARTY, White House Chief of Staff: Upon being advised of potential allegations or problems in the Travel Office, an associate White House counsel called the FBI to seek guidance as to how to look into an internal matter or internal security matter. That call did not violate any stated procedure or policy. However, when the FBI did not respond as quickly as the associate counsel had hoped, he erred in using language which could have been interpreted as pressing the FBI and in mentioning the possibility of seeking guidance from other agencies such as the Internal Revenue Service. The second matter concerning the FBI was the disclosure by the White House of the FBI investigation to the Travel Office. This absolutely should not have happened. In addition to apologizing for the disclosure of the FBI investigation, I would now like to briefly address the treatment of Travel Office employees. This action clearly should have been handled in a more sensitive manner in retrospect. At my direction, action was taken later to extend indefinitely the paid administrative leave of the five employees who had no financial authority. The five employees will be reassigned to comparable governmental positions, but no final decision on their permanent status will be made until the Travel Office inquiry has been completed. I am disappointed with some of the action taken by various members of the White House staff upon whose recommendations and judgments I must rely. But as chief of staff, I accept responsibility for those mistakes. I am particularly and I personally regret that I did not review the staff recommendation to me for dismissal with more caution, more thoughtfulness, and more scrutiny. In addition, Leon and I have fully reviewed the criticisms in the report with the staff members involved. We've had some very frank and direct discussions, and I have made it clear that I will not tolerate any repetition of conduct which has been criticized. I expect my instruction to be strictly obeyed, and I expect there will be no repetition of the conduct in the future. Finally, this management review is being referred to the attorney general and the Justice Department for her full review.

MR. LEHRER: Senate Republican Leader Bob Dole reacted with a call for the appointment of an independent counsel.

SEN. ROBERT DOLE, Minority Leader: It seems to me that there is more reason than ever to get out of this in-house fox in the chicken coop investigation and have an independent counsel which can be done by the attorney general. She has that authority. William Barr used that authority on three occasions to appoint independent counsels, and I think the release of this report certainly underscores the need for that. And we would hope that that would happen very quickly and clear up this matter. You talk about double standards. If this had happened in the Bush administration, there'd be at least nine hearings going on in Congress right now, and demand for special prosecutors, and they'd have been in every paper every day, in every newscast, so I just don't think -- we're already getting flooded with phone calls, people seeing this reported on the wire service and on various TV outlets. They don't understand why we have this double standard.

MR. LEHRER: Now to our analysis of this and other matters of the week. It comes from our regular syndicated columnist, Mark Shields, joined tonight by Marlin Fitzwater, former press secretary to Presidents Bush and Reagan, now in the public relations business in Washington. Marlin, is there a double standard? Do you agree with Sen. Dole?

MR. FITZWATER: I think there is. I think if this had happened in the Carter administration, there would have been an independent counsel. I'm sure Hamilton Jordan would rather have been investigated by his OMB director and received a reprimand than to have to go through an independent counsel investigation. So I think there's a double standard no matter how far back you go.

MR. LEHRER: Yeah. What do you think, Mark?

MR. SHIELDS: I think that Bob Dole is right. I mean, given his classic gift for understatement, but I really think he is right in this matter. I think when you fire seven people as humiliatingly, as cruelly, and as publicly as these people were doing and Mack McLarty, there were a lot of mea culpas in that statement this afternoon, but there was no action statement. I mean, I've spoken with the people, they've been reprimanded and all the rest. One of Bill Clinton's oldest and closest political advisers said the other day, commented upon the President's sort of upset in the polls and seemed to be doing better, now maybe we're strong enough that we can fire people. And I just thought that perhaps this was one of those times one might say, hey, this was so bad and so wrong that there's going to be action.

MR. LEHRER: So you, you agree, do you not, Marlin, that there should, this should go to an independent counsel, that this shouldn't be the end of it?

MR. FITZWATER: I think so. I mean, one of the reasons Leon Panetta was selected to head this thing is because the White House Legal Office, legal counsel, was the subject of the investigation. That's almost the very definition of the independent counsel law. Now I'm in a tough position here, because I don't think that that law ought to be reauthorized. I think this has got to be handled by the Justice Department, but fair is fair, and if that definition of the law stands, I think it ought to be used.

MR. LEHRER: So -- but whether or not its done through an independent counsel, under any circumstances, in other words, it wasn't -- what Mack McLarty and Leon Panetta did today is not enough, is that what you're saying?

MR. FITZWATER: I don't think so.

MR. LEHRER: And you agree, Mark?

MR. SHIELDS: I do. I mean, I really do. I think questions will, will continue to nag. I really do, in spite of the fact that Mack McLarty and Leon Panetta has deserved reputations for rectitude and morality. I think that it, it does come down to who does investigate whom, and the White House Counsel's office, I mean, going to the FBI, I think that, that really is the heart of it. I mean, you bring in the FBI and --

MR. FITZWATER: I guarantee you two days from now there'll be another whole series of questions come out of this report, and there'll be no way to answer it.

MR. LEHRER: Like what?

MR. FITZWATER: Well, there'll be questions about this report. I haven't read it, but I just know for example there probably will be charges that people were involved, or gave advice, or had some participation that weren't mentioned in this report, or weren't talked about. I'll be you the President's role is questioned. It always is. And whenever the White House or the President issues a report on his own activities, it always leaves his own participation open to question. And I, and I, as sure as I'm sitting here, I'll bet you that happens.

MR. LEHRER: All right. You mentioned the polls and where President Clinton is now. There's been some up tick. He's also going to, he's going to a big summit next week.

MR. SHIELDS: Yes, he is.

MR. LEHRER: With the G-7 countries. What kind of shape is he in? What kind of, of position does he bring to that summit?

MR. SHIELDS: I think, I think Bill Clinton is in better shape than certainly he was two weeks ago.

MR. FITZWATER: With a high standard.

MR. SHIELDS: No. I think he is. I think his own pollster, Stan Greenburg, probably put it well. He said, well, he thought he'd bottomed out. And I think that may very well prove accurate, at least for the foreseeable future. He's going into it, in my judgment, the old Turkish proverb applies here.

MR. LEHRER: Turkish proverb.

MR. SHIELDS: In the land of the blind men, the one-eyed man is king. I mean, he's going into a group. He has a fixed term in office. He is, he, the President of the United States, unlike most of the other people, a lot of them are going there for the first time. They're wearing name tags because they don't know each other. I mean, we've got new people from different countries. Poor John Major from Britain is at 16 percent favorable in the polls over there, so the President -- Japan doesn't have a government but I think most of all every time we've had one of these, Jim, in the past what's happened is the United States has gone, we've had the great class photo with the gipper or George Bush or whoever else, and invariably our allies have said, what are you going to do about the deficit, what are you going to do about the debt, and oh, we're going to get it under control, because America running up those deficits was really having an impact on the world economy. And Bill Clinton, at least come over there and say, hey, for the first time we are making an effort, we're making progress, and we're serious about it.

MR. FITZWATER: Well, that's true, and I think that's his best card going into this, but he is very weak on national security and on the economy generally. Not only do these leaders have reservations about his leadership because of Bosnia, today he closed all these bases in Europe which only reinforces the feeling that we're trying to pull away from worldwide commitments and responsibilities. So he's got a big question mark that's going to be in the minds of all these leaders, and what he needs is for them to somehow say that they respect him, that they praise his leadership, and I think that's going to be hard to get.

MR. LEHRER: What --

MR. FITZWATER: On the economy, unemployment just went up today. We're on the verge of recession again.

MR. LEHRER: What about the bombing of the Iraqi intelligence office, does he not get points for that in terms of national security?

MR. FITZWATER: I don't think he gets many points, because I don't think that goes to the heart of the European concern, which is the future of NATO, the future of European security and the U.S. role in it. And I think the recent statement that the U.S. is pulling back from its commitments around the world that we, that we changed our direction four or five times in Bosnia, really has the other leaders concerned. And as Mark says, they're in a weakened position too. So everybody's going to be very nervous.

MR. LEHRER: But what about the point, Mark, that it was President Clinton who tried to get the Europeans to do more, and the Europeans are the ones who backed off on Bosnia specifically, but that's a hard sell to make?

MR. SHIELDS: I think it probably is a hard sell to make, but I think the principal concern, and to quote a great American foreign policy expert, the former House Speaker, Tip O'Neill, all politics is local. What we're talking about are countries that are in bigger trouble from the United States economically, are partners there, the European countries, and I think they're looking to the United States for economic leadership. I think that's what Bill Clinton has to be. I think he didn't win last November as a commander in chief, as a foreign policy. Certainly President Bush's credentials in that area were always seen right up to the end by American voters as superior to Bill Clinton's. I don't think -- I think that he's leading at home and seemed strong and I think he's relatively strong going in there certainly than he was in the recent past.

MR. FITZWATER: They will like his deficit reduction program. But he's also got to repair the Japan relationship which is in trouble. And he's going to have a trillion questions come up here that'll be very difficult to answer, and the prime minister of Japan is not in a position to help. So that's going to be another weak link.

MR. SHIELDS: There's nobody home in Tokyo right now.

MR. FITZWATER: That's true.

MR. LEHRER: Yeah. Marlin, another development this week was this abortion vote in the House reaffirming the Hyde amendment which forbids these federal funds from the use of funding, or funding abortions for poor women. That came as a surprise. Should it?

MR. FITZWATER: Well, I think so, because although the polls always show that the nation is fairly evenly divided on the abortion question, all the thought in this town was that politically the pro-choice groups had the strong position. President Bush -- I mean, President Clinton, excuse me, has taken strong action --

MR. LEHRER: You have to watch that.

MR. FITZWATER: That's right.

MR. SHIELDS: Call Houston. Call Houston.

MR. FITZWATER: I'll get thrown out of the club here. The -- President Clinton has taken strong actions on the pro-choice front, and he's changed a lot of the abortion regulations and people generally thought that this would be eliminated. And so I think it was surprising and is a setback for many programs, including his health reform program.

MR. LEHRER: Yeah. Because there's supposed to be a piece of that in the health care package. Mark, Congresswoman Schroeder said that the year of the woman finally went down, suddenly went down the chute. Is it that serious?

MR. SHIELDS: Well, one out of four women I think in the House voted for the Hyde amendment. I think that's 98 Democrats did. I mean, the fault lines on this one, a majority of the freshmen who were supposed to be, lock up that position voted for the Hyde amendment. I mean, what was amazing --

MR. LEHRER: Explain it.

MR. SHIELDS: Two things. I think we're struggling, still struggling for consensus on abortion in this country. I think that there is a big majority against criminalizing or outlawing abortion in all instances, no doubt about it. There's not going to be a constitutional amendment or anything of the sort. At the same time there are grave reservations about making it widely and just universally available with no protections and no reservations and where the states in ability are being banned from imposing any limitations like parental consent or whatever. What came down in this one was, do we pay for it, and okay, the difference, Jim, between the right to an abortion, a woman in consultation with her doctor, her conscience, her confessor, however, seeking that as opposed to taxpayers subsidizing it. And I think, I think you raised a key question on national health. Already, warnings have been issued by Sen. Jay Rockefeller, friendly warnings, Sen. Harris Wofford of Pennsylvania to the President saying that this is explicitly in. The, the national health package could -- those are big numbers -- 255 in the House.

MR. LEHRER: Finally, the President had to make another tough decision this week. It had to do with the timber decision, the environmentalists on one side, the timber industry on the other in the Pacific Northwest. What kind of marks did you give him on that decision, Marlin?

MR. FITZWATER: Well, I think he did as good as he could do. It's no win. You can argue politically that you take one group or the other. We tried balance. He's trying balance. That's the best the President can do.

MR. SHIELDS: If you make everybody mad at you, you get the AFL- CIO mad at you, you get the local loggers mad at you, you got the environmentalists mad at you, he's either doing everything wrong or something right. And I'd like to think that it was the latter.

MR. LEHRER: Yeah. But it doesn't look like -- we did a long thing on this last night -- it doesn't seem like it's over. I mean, this is -- you know, the President makes a decision and yet it could still be in the courts for years and years and years.

MR. FITZWATER: Well, it's like most environmental decisions. They're never over. They're never popular with either side, and even if you made a totally pro-environment decision, all the constituencies still knock you up beside the head because you want to get stronger action next time. So it's no win. I think the best thing he did was make the decision and get going.

MR. LEHRER: Yeah. Well, last night we had an environmentalist who was not satisfied, because it didn't go far enough.

MR. SHIELDS: That's right.

MR. LEHRER: We had a representative of labor, the timber, the labor part of the timber industry was not satisfied, because it went too far.

MR. FITZWATER: Too far.

MR. LEHRER: And that's life here. That's life here.

MR. FITZWATER: Probably worse than -- probably the environmental --

MR. LEHRER: Marlin, Mark, thank you both very much.

MR. FITZWATER: Thank you.

MR. SHIELDS: Thank you. NEWSMAKER

MR. MacNeil: This was a momentous day in the history of South Africa, agreement to hold the first elections for all races next April finally burying the policy of apartheid and white minority rule. It came a few hours before President F.W. DeKlerk and African National Congress President Nelson Mandela met President Clinton at the White House to describe South Africa's transition to inter- racial democracy. The two leaders are in the United States jointly to receive the Liberty Medal in Philadelphia on July 4th. We'll be talking to both of them after this backgrounder on the stormy road to today's agreement. Our report is from Special Correspondent Mike Hannah in Johannesburg.

MIKE HANNAH: Three years ago the release of Nelson Mandela offered the hope of imminent liberation and end to years of apartheid rule. While the people celebrated, the talking began. Hopes were high of a smooth transition from tight rule to multiracial democracy. But heightened expectations were not immediately realized and frustration swelled as it became apparent that the ruling National Party was willing to share power but not to give it up completely. Mounting anger found an outlet. While the politicians argued, political violence argued as those who'd once fought together against the common enemy of apartheid turned on each other. On the one side the predominantly Zulu Inkatha movement headed by Chief Gotcha Buthelezi. On the other, followers of the African National Congress. The death toll mounted as the two sides waged a vicious struggle for control of black communities, and a third party began to make its presence felt. The Pan Americanist Congress or PAC ranged itself against both sides. It argued that the ANC had betrayed the black majority by negotiating with what it called white oppressors and maintained that Inkatha was perpetuating the apartheid system with its ethnic Zulu base. It was against this background of division and violence that the country's first multiparty conference took place. The Conference for a Democratic South Africa, CODESA, was intended to provide a negotiating forum for all parties but was boycotted by the black radicals of the PAC and the white right wing Conservative Party. Those that did take part could not reach agreement. What remained of negotiation crumbled in the gunfire that echoed through the township of Poipetung in June last year. More than 50 township residents were killed in an attack by Inkatha migrant workers, and the ANC was adamant that the attack took place with the support of the government security forces, and buried along with the Poipetung dead was any lingering sense of hope, any thoughts that an imminent peaceful transition to majority rule was possible.

CYRIL RAMAPHOSA, General Secretary, ANC: The ANC has no option but to break off bilateral and CODESA negotiations.

MIKE HANNAH: The violence continued. In the nominally independent Ciskei homeland, troops opened fire on marching crowds, and the ANC held the government responsible for the actions of the homeland administration that Pretoria had created. White civilians were targeted in a series of bomb attacks for which the Azalian People's Liberation Army, the armed wing of Pan Africanist Congress, claimed responsibility. The worst fears of the country's whites appeared to be realized. And the right wing Conservative Party continued to rally support against a government that it believed had betrayed white Afrikaner interests. Economic recession fueled by political instability deepened, crime rose to unprecedented levels, and confirmation that political assassins existed in the police and army undermined whatever authority the forces of law and order still retained after years of enforcing apartheid legislation. Under attack from left and right and from within the ranks of his own followers, President DeKlerk was aware that time was running out, that South Africa threatened to tear itself apart. In opening what many hoped was the last session of a white-dominated parliament, DeKlerk made clear that negotiations must resume.

PRESIDENT DeKLERK: Every South African is facing a choice, either to support constitutional change and everything which is reasonably required for its success, or to retire into the largo and prepare for an armed and bloody struggle.

MR. MacNeil: Negotiations did continue among 26 political groups, and as we reported earlier, most of them agreed today to a definite date next April 27th for South Africa's first election with black participation. Now we get the views of South Africa's President, F.W. DeKlerk, who joins us from his hotel in Washington. Mr. President, thank you for joining us.

PRESIDENT DeKLERK: Good evening.

MR. MacNeil: Just may I ask you, having now worked alongside with him, your opponent in one sense but your partner in a sense, what is now your opinion of Mr. Mandela as a man and as a, and as a leader?

PRESIDENT DeKLERK: I have respect for him. I respect his integrity. I accept that he's as committed as I am to find a negotiated solution. I have found him always reasonable, and we found it possible to discuss crises in a detached and a calm manner, and, therefore, I work with him well.

MR. MacNeil: Does today's agreement on elections mean that the most difficult part is over, or still lies ahead?

PRESIDENT DeKLERK: I think in a certain sense of the word the election date, itself, doesn't put us beyond all other difficulties, but I think that the, also with regard to other fundamental issues, we have gone a long way past the most difficult part. And we have now reached the stage where there has been a convergence of opinion on almost each and every important issue, and although there remains on the nitty gritty a few difficult bridges still to be crossed, I'm confident that in due course in the next month and in the next two months, we will also bridge those gaps and reach consensus, a consensus which can carry the support of the overwhelming majority of all South Africa.

MR. MacNeil: You're referring to in the first instance the formation of the transitional executive council, am I right in that?

PRESIDENT DeKLERK: Yes.

MR. MacNeil: How close, how close is that now, would you say?

PRESIDENT DeKLERK: I think we can reach agreement before the end of July on that, but once again, a week in a nation's lifetime isn't much. If we are forced to go beyond that, definitely before middle of August, end of August, therefore, we're moving ahead but not only on that. We're dealing with a bill of rights. We're dealing with settling the terms and the principles of a transitional constitution of how a government of national unity must be actually composed of a constitutional court and how that must be instituted and what exactly its functions will be. It's a whole package, and each and every aspect of it is important. What we are putting together is a system which can bring stability to our country, which can ensure through democracy.

MR. MacNeil: What do you think of Mr. Mandela's caution in holding out on recommending the sanctions elected until that transitional council is formed?

PRESIDENT DeKLERK: Well, I've been critical of that point of view all along. I think the p who pay the price for sanctions are the poor and the unemployed. And I would have liked the ANC to change its stance long ago. The International Community seems to have also decided that for them a transitional executive council is important, agreement at least on it, and a date for the election. In that sense of the word I accept that as reality, and I am urging everybody to work hard so that we can reach those two goals in order to get the sanctions removed in the best interests of all South Africans.

MR. MacNeil: Are the extremists in your country, white or black, strong enough, powerful enough, to stop the progress you have made?

PRESIDENT DeKLERK: There is a worst case scenario in which they can do that, but I sincerely believe that that will only happen if we fail to produce timelessly, good agreements which can because they are credible and because they are supported by mechanisms convince once again the overwhelming majority that their salvation lies in cooperation within the frame work of those agreements. I believe we're going to succeed in putting on the table such agreements, substantiated and supported and underpinned by a credible mechanism. If we do that, I know that the radicals on the left and the radicals on the left -- on both sides will be kept to a vociferous minority and that the majority of South Africans will surge ahead, that reconciliation will win the day.

MR. MacNeil: We hear a lot on the news here about white opponents of what you're doing. Are they strong enough to force you to create or create themselves a white state?

PRESIDENT DeKLERK: Well, I don't think that a white state is viable. I'm absolutely against the concept of writing race into any constitutional solution. I think that federations, strong regional government, can offer to those who feel strongly about their culture, about their language, certain regions within which dominant languages can accommodate fundamental cultural needs of people and offer protection to quite a number of our many minorities. In that sense of the word, I think a bridge can be built between what they want, on the one hand, and what is practicable and achievable on the other hand.

MR. MacNeil: Thinking --

PRESIDENT DeKLERK: It is for that reason that most of the members of CODESA put their priority on getting what they referred to as a federal system with high autonomy to the various regions. It is only one or two parties who insist on once again write race into any solution. It won't wash, it cannot work. Discrimination should never be revived in South Africa.

MR. MacNeil: It may be an extreme analogy, the American Civil War, but would you ever be forced to use your national, use force nationally, your army, to prevent secession by whites who wanted to create their own state?

PRESIDENT DeKLERK: There is no part of South Africa where those who might consider that amongst the whites form such a majority of the people living in a particular reason that it is in any way feasible. You can only succeed if you already dominate the area which you want to take with you in secession. Secession can be a threat or a possibility if you look at, for instance, the Zulus, but the whites are not numerically dominant in any part of the country and, therefore, secession for them is an unfeasible route to follow.

MR. MacNeil: Are you having trouble convincing the international business community to risk the huge investment that will be needed to restart your economy with scenes of violence and some terror continuing on the television screens of the world at the moment?

PRESIDENT DeKLERK: Yes, there's no doubt that violence is having a very negative effect and that apart from finding prosecutional solutions we will have to ensure that violence abates, that it is brought down to levels where it is no longer perceived to be a threat to investors. We need to create an investor friendly climate economically speaking but also from a security point of view.

MR. MacNeil: What politics would you expect a government in which the ANC was dominant or heavily influential to embrace? I mean, how much state direction in the economy?

PRESIDENT DeKLERK: I really harbor no fears on the question of how much fear enterprise. I think there's a general realization that only if we have a dynamic, vibrant, growing economy, we need a growth rate of about 5 percent in real terms. Can any government in the future produce and deliver promises and on expectations? In that sense of the word we've crossed that bridge. The threat of Marxist Socialism is no longer any real threat in South Africa.

MR. MacNeil: Why? Do you think the ANC has changed its policies?

PRESIDENT DeKLERK: I think the ANC has shifted to a marked extent and that they now realize that with the strong private sector that we have and with the international position being what it is and with the visible failure of Marxist Socialism they have no option but to work together with the private sector and to ensure investor security without which they won't be investments, and, therefore, I think, yes, they have made a major shift.

MR. MacNeil: Will the new South Africa in which your, the majority of your population which outnumbers the white population, the blacks outnumber the whites about five to one or six to one, will it be an open western democracy, western style democracy to expect, or somewhat more authoritarian as in many other countries in your continent?

PRESIDENT DeKLERK: I don't want to be dramatic, but I will say yes to a constitution which will not guarantee an open democracy with the typical fundamental, democratic values being appropriately safeguarded through checks and balances. That is what we are negotiating about, a transitional constitution and principles for a final constitution which will ensure that our democracy will be in step with all successful democracies across this world.

MR. MacNeil: Well, President DeKlerk, thank you very much for joining us.

PRESIDENT DeKLERK: Thank you, and good night.

MR. MacNeil: Thank you. Now we go to the principal leader of South Africa's 30 million blacks, Nelson Mandela, president of the African National Congress. He joins us from a studio in Washington. Mr. Mandela, thank you for joining us.

MR. MANDELA: You're welcome.

MR. MacNeil: You've passed a lot of milestones since you left prison three and a half years ago. How important is today's setting the date for elections?

MR. MANDELA: It's a very historic decision, because 22 people - - 22 million people will vote on that day, 90 million for the first time in their lives. It is historic in that people who have never voted before will on this occasion select, elect a government of their own choice.

MR. MacNeil: President DeKlerk has just told us that he feels the formation of a transitional executive council, the next stage in these, in this process, is quite close, maybe even in July. Do you think it's as close as that?

MR. MANDELA: Provided certain developments around the issue of the transitional executive council will occur. That is a reasonable estimate. We are very keen to ensure that sanctions are as, are lifted as soon as possible, but we want to take precautions to make sure that the lifting of sanctions will serve, will have served, will serve the purposes for which sanctions are imposed, in other words, that will, will have been shown that the objects of our anti-apartheid struggle have more or less been achieved, or that preparatory work had now been completed for us to make sure that the process is irreversible.

MR. MacNeil: Is that what you told President Clinton today?

MR. MANDELA: Well, I expressed views of that nature, and I assured him that we are thinking in terms of lifting sanctions as soon as certain developments have taken place.

MR. MacNeil: Are you holding out because you still, to put it very simply, you still feel the white power structure might renege at this late date on some aspects?

MR. MANDELA: Well, that is also an element, because there has been a great deal of vacillation on the part of the National Party and its government. We want to make sure that when we review the question of sanctions nothing will happen which will necessitate us taking similar measures.

MR. MacNeil: Congressman Donald Payne of New Jersey, who's a member of the Black Caucus in the House of Representatives, says sanctions should remain until multiracial government is actually in place. Do you think he's being too cautions?

MR. MANDELA: No. That's a very reasonable view, because that is also our official viewpoint, but there are very ugly socioeconomic problems in our country. The unacceptable high level of unemployment.

MR. MacNeil: About 40 percent, I believe, is that right?

MR. MANDELA: 48 percent --

MR. MacNeil: 48 percent.

MR. MANDELA: -- of the working population cannot find jobs in the formal sector. There is also a rocketing of the crime wave. Children of school going age can get no admission at schools, because there are not enough school facilities. They cannot get jobs, and, therefore, they are roaming in the streets and naturally turning to crime not because they're criminals but because they have to earn a living. That is a situation which has compelled us very reluctantly to revise our time frames.

MR. MacNeil: Could -- I asked President DeKlerk this question - - could extremists, white or black, still derail this transition?

MR. MANDELA: I do not think so. I think the fact that we've made progress during the last three years is a clear indication that there is no force in our country that can succeed in derailing the negotiations. Naturally, there are threats from a number of parties, and they can make it difficult for us to make the smooth progress we have achieved so far, but I think that in the final end, we will be able to come on top of any situation that may develop from extremities.

MR. MacNeil: We heard Mr. DeKlerk say he didn't think that the threats to form a white, only white state were viable, and he gave various reasons. What do you think? Is the multiracial state assured now, or is there still a danger of risks, a risk of whites forming their own state?

MR. MANDELA: I agree fully with him. I don't think that this is a viable demand or threat at all. But of course, one must not be complacent, because we have seen in our neighboring countries small and unknown individuals who when they opposed an established government received vast resources from conservatives and reactionaries from various parts of the world. So we should not be complacent about the matter, and we are alert. We are addressing it, and I don't think personally that there is a threat of such a measure that it can actually succeed in derailing the negotiations.

MR. MacNeil: You are eager, I read, to tell American business that South Africa will be ripe for their investment. Is the ANC abandoning its prior faith in nationalization?

MR. MANDELA: Well, we have already made a shift in that regard. Nationalization will still be one of the options we might resort to in case of need, but just as they have a clause on nationalization in the constitution of the federal republic of Germany which they have not used for decades, we do not think it will be necessary for us ever to resort to that option. But we are keeping it in reserve just in case.

MR. MacNeil: Has the, how has the collapse of communism and the victory, if that's the word, of market capitalism changed your own economic views in the last couple of years?

MR. MANDELA: No, not at all. We have never been as the ANC a, an organization which has adopted any principles of Marxism and, therefore, what has happened in Eastern Europe has had no effect whatsoever on our policy in regard to nationalization. What has happened is that businessmen inside and outside our country have strongly condemned nationalization and expressed the concern that as long as we have nationalization as an option it will be impossible for us to get investments both locally and from abroad. It is partly those considerations which compelled us to make a shift in this regard, not the collapse of socialism in Eastern Europe.

MR. MacNeil: When it comes time -- I know you're not ready yet - - but when it comes time to call for the lifting of sanctions, will you urge American states and municipalities to lift the sanctions they imposed?

MR. MANDELA: Precisely, because if the United States government is prepared to lift sanctions, we naturally will expect the states and the cities to follow suit. No useful purpose can be served by us lifting sanctions if the states and cities are going to continue with sanctions. We will have to launch a massive campaign appealing to all these institutions to follow suit and lift sanctions.

MR. MacNeil: So universities and others, institutions that divested themselves of South African stocks to show solidarity with the anti-apartheid movement, you would urge them once again to reinvest?

MR. MANDELA: Naturally.

MR. MacNeil: Finally, Mr. Mandela, how do you judge President F.W. DeKlerk as a man, as a leader in view of what you've come through together so far?

MR. MANDELA: I have got on well with Mr. DeKlerk just as I have got on well with the leaders of other political parties. In trying to normalize the situation in South Africa, we have to involve leaders, all leaders with a substantial following. And Mr. DeKlerk has that following. We cannot ignore him if we want to normalize our political situation. I have worked with him in that spirit, and I think we have made reasonable progress.

MR. MacNeil: Mr. Mandela, thank you very much for joining us.

MR. MANDELA: You are welcome. ESSAY - AS AMERICAN AS ...

MR. LEHRER: Finally tonight, as we begin this 4th of July weekend, some thoughts about the face of America from essayist Roger Rosenblatt, contributing editor of Vanity Fair Magazine.

ROGER ROSENBLATT: As American as Madonna? Na. As American as Michael Jordan? Not exactly. As American as Norman Rockwell, yes, that's the ticket. As American as Norman Rockwell, or to be precise about it, as American as a Norman Rockwell face, since it is by Rockwell's faces, his innocent, vigilant, annoyed, worried, happy faces that the country has measured its highest feelings and best moods. A museum has recently opened in Stockbridge, Massachusetts, Rockwell's home, offering a central place to view those various faces. Even away from Stockbridge, most Americans carry Rockwell's work around in their minds' eyes. To call someone America's most beloved artist may be a condescending curse in the art world, but in the world of plain folks, which was definitely Rockwell's world, well, he liked his faces. The emphasis in America's most beloved artist falls on America in the living center of which Rockwell seemed born and planted as stolid as his last name, as normal as his first. Rockwell showed how very hard it is to keep one's balance and hold the center. So few people, much less artists, do. Look at his series, "The Four Freedoms." Freedom from want is a little too easy, the super abundant American Thanksgiving table in the midst of a starving Europe in World War II. And freedom from fear painted at the same time is perhaps a little self- congratulatory. Still, if you take the newspaper out of the father's hand, here's a pretty good picture of why America has reason to congratulate itself. Keeping wolves from a country's door is no small feat in the modern century. The children, nice faces, sleep. The more ambitious and difficult paintings in the series are "Freedom of Worship" and "Freedom of Speech," because they need to capture the face of abstractions. That, of course, was Rockwell's strength, the face of abstractions. So he shows not prayer but faces in prayer, not speech but a man both proud and shaky speaking. As America as Norman Rockwell means simple, not fancy, and simplicity may be the main quality the country has always sought, the down to earth meaning honest, meaning modest face around which a nation builds itself. It all begins with an attitude, a visible attitude, a face. I like your face. Say that to an American and you're saying a lot. We come now to another Independence Day celebration and the question slips in: Independence from what? Not Britain anymore, unless one is referring to the U.S. real estate the British own. No, Americans simply like the idea of independence, sometimes to our shame and peril, more often to our pride and honor. Rockwell was a freedom specialist. He specialized in the faces of the free, freedom given and freedom gained, and the high and mighty free were not less simply drawn than the you and me free. Those Saturday Evening Post covers he did of presidents and candidates, has Eisenhower ever looked better, or Nixon, or Kennedy, or Adelaid Stevenson? What Rockwell is cherished for still are the ordinary faces. They find their models in any circumstance in which the country realizes its character for a moment, like a doctor's office or a classroom, or a ball game, or a girl at the mirror, or at an Independence Day Parade, where in the paraders and on the sidelines, if you look for what Norman Rockwell looked for, you'll see a nation on display, caught off guard, looking like itself, looking as American as I like your face. I'm Roger Rosenblatt. RECAP

MR. LEHRER: Again, the major stories of this Friday, President Clinton approved the independent commission's recommendation that 175 military bases be closed or realigned. It will now happen unless Congress votes it down within 45 working days. And White House chief of staff McLarty said mistakes were made in the May firing of seven White House Travel Office employees. He said the staffers involved had been reprimanded. Senate Republican Leader Dole said an independent counsel should also look into the matter. Good night, Robin.

MR. MacNeil: Good night, Jim. That's the NewsHour for tonight. Have a very nice holiday weekend, and we'll see you again Monday night. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.