The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer in Washington.

MR. MacNeil: And I'm Robert MacNeil in New York. After tonight's News Summary, who has an agenda to deal with the problems of American inner cities? We hear the administration's ideas from Housing Secretary Jack Kemp and the views of the mayors of five cities, Atlanta, San Francisco, Tampa, Omaha, and Madison, and finally Correspondent Jeffrey Kaye on how Los Angeles is healing the wounds. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. MacNeil: The dusk to dawn curfew was lifted today in Los Angeles, but Mayor Tom Bradley said federal troops would continue to patrol the streets. Life began to turn to normal as commuters clogged the freeways and children returned to school. Relief workers distributed food in areas where stores had been burned and looted. Last night, national guardsmen shot and killed a man who tried to crash his car through a barricade. The official death toll from the riots was put at 55 today. There have been more than 2300 injuries and nearly 11,400 arrests. Jim.

MR. LEHRER: Damage to the city of Los Angeles has been estimated at $717 million. White House Spokesman Marlin Fitzwater said today the administration will provide $300 million in emergency grants for repairs. He said the Small Business Administration will make at least another 300 million available in loans. President Bush discussed the Los Angeles riots with this cabinet this morning at the White House. Reporters asked what plans he had for the nation's cities.

PRES. BUSH: They were probably going to think more about what we can do immediately in the aftermath of this violence, and then tomorrow put it into a little longer-term perspective, but I'm real pleased that it's calmed down out there and we will do everything we can to support the people out there to get -- make things tranquil and then to help get to the core of the problems.

REPORTER: Are you saying, Mr. President, you have no idea what the core of this problem is?

PRES. BUSH: No, I wouldn't say that at all, Helen. I don't know how you can conclude that from what I just said. We had some very good ideas that we have out there that would have been extraordinarily helpful if they've been put into effect. We think home ownership is a really good concept and we've been fighting for it for a long time. So it's not that we have no idea whatsoever. I don't imagine how you could have concluded that from what I just said.

REPORTER: You said you were going to look into the core.

PRES. BUSH: Well, we don't think we know all the answers, and I think you learn from every incident.

MR. LEHRER: Later, White House Spokesman Fitzwater blamed the social welfare programs of the 1960s and '70s for the problems of the inner cities. He said they were failures and have become destructive forces. He said conservative programs that create jobs and home ownership would prove more effective solutions. Democratic Presidential candidate Bill Clinton today toured some of the hardest hit areas of Los Angeles. He said the nation must work to make some good come out of this situation. Clinton's rival for the Democratic nomination, Jerry Brown, was in Washington today. Brown said White House Spokesman Fitzwater was totally wrong to blame social programs for inner city problems.

JERRY BROWN, Democratic Presidential Candidate: 579 billion has been spent on defense, while 78 billion has been cut to the cities. This administration is neglecting and abandoning its own citizens. It is not the failed social programs that, in fact, have been cut back every year. It is the misallocation of money to a false and now non-existent threat. I hope today that what has happened in Los Angeles will wake people up to the underlying volcano waiting to erupt in dozens of American cities.

MR. LEHRER: We will be talking about the problems of the cities right after this News Summary.

MR. MacNeil: Demonstrators rallied outside the Justice Department in Washington this morning to demand a quick and thorough federal investigation of the Los Angeles beating trial. The protesters said there was compelling evidence that the four white policemen should be charged with civil rights violations. A grand jury in Los Angeles is looking into the matter. About 500 protesters also demonstrated outside the White House. Several threatened to climb the fence, but the group eventually moved on to stage a sit-in at a major bridge connecting Washington with suburban Virginia. Police closed access to the bridge and rerouted traffic. No incidents of violence were reported.

MR. LEHRER: There was more heavy fighting today in the former Yugoslav republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The clashes were between Bosnian forces and those of the mainly Serbian Yugoslav army. They intensified over the weekend when the army took the Bosnian President hostage and Bosnian forces struck back. We have a report from Terry Lloyd of Independent Television News.

MR. LLOYD: Federal army troops picked up a constant bombardment of Sarajevo's city center today in retaliation for the ambush of their convoy and the detention of 181 soldiers. That only served to hamper the movement of European Community negotiators who were trying to bring about a truce. Gen. Mackenzie, the United Nations commander in the city, managed to reach the Bosnian barracks where federal army troops are being held prisoner, but he had little news to report.

GENERAL JOHN MACKENZIE, United Nations: I'm afraid not. We're just in the middle of discussions.

REPORTER: Will you be able to take your prisoners back?

GENERAL MACKENZIE: We haven't the faintest idea at this time.

MR. LLOYD: Lord Carrington's special envoy, Colm Doyle, described the situation as ridiculous.

COLM DOYLE, EC Envoy: I've also heard information that maybe on the other side there is an attempt to try and get an equivalent amount of people which might lead to some sort of an exchange. Of course, this sort of action is absolutely ridiculous and it's the future of what's happening out here.

MR. LLOYD: Meanwhile, the federal army shifted their sites on the TV station transmitter, scoring one direct hit. A convoy of UN coaches set off to bring the captured troops back to Serb areas, but to complicate matters, the Bosnians claim many have asked to defect.

MR. LEHRER: Late today, most of the Yugoslav troops were released. Bosnian officials said the rest would be freed tomorrow. There was fighting again today in Afghanistan. Extremist Muslim guerrillas fired rockets at the capital city of Kabul. Official Kabul Radio said 13 people were killed, but hospital officials put the number at 30. They also clashed on the outskirts of the city with other rebels who support the interim government. It took power last week after the rebels forced the country's communist leaders from power in a 14-year war.

MR. MacNeil: Former Soviet President Gorbachev received the first Ronald Reagan Freedom Award today at the Reagan Library in Santa Barbara. Mr. Reagan praised Gorbachev as a friend who had the courage and strength to make needed changes in Soviet society. Mr. Gorbachev said his country was committed to the principles of democracy. Gorbachev's two-week visit to the U.S. is his first since leaving office last December. He'll speak Wednesday at Westminster College in Fulton, Missouri, the site of Winston Churchill's famous Iron Curtain speech 46 years ago.

MR. LEHRER: A strike by public workers in Germany spread to airports today. Berlin's airport was closed and air traffic was crippled at others. The walkout began eight days ago in a dispute over pay. Public transportation is halted in dozens of cities and garbage lies uncollected in the streets. Government officials said for the first time since the strike began they were willing to improve their pay raise offer.

MR. MacNeil: Back in this country, a federal judge today upheld the subpoena for records of the now defunct House bank. The House voted in favor of turning over the records and the judge said he would not stand in the way. Five House members had challenged the subpoena, saying it was too broad. It demands copies of every check written on the bank over a 39-month period whether or not they balanced. Also today, the head of the House investigation to the scandal announced his retirement. Democratic Congressman Mat McHugh of New York said he was frustrated by an inability to work change and by having frequently to defend his character simply for being a member of Congress. That's it for the News Summary. Now, the urban agenda as seen by the Bush administration and five mayors, and Los Angeles picks up the pieces. FOCUS - NAKED CITY

MR. LEHRER: Post verdict, post riots America is our only story again today. We look at it through the eyes and minds of a Bush cabinet member and the mayors of five American cities. The cabinet officer is Jack Kemp, the Secretary of Housing & Urban Development. He attended a special cabinet meeting at the White House this morning out of which came the statement from Presidential Spokesman Marlin Fitzwater blaming the current urban unrest on what he called "the failed social programs of the sixties and seventies." Sec. Kemp joins us now for a Newsmaker interview from a studio on Capitol Hill. Mr. Secretary, welcome.

SEC. KEMP: Thank you, Jim.

MR. LEHRER: Do you agree with Fitzwater that the social programs in the sixties and seventies created the climate that caused what happened in Los Angeles?

SEC. KEMP: I think, Jim, Marlin Fitzwater was responding to some of the attacks on the President and on the Republican Party over the weekend by Bill Clinton and others who said that the riots were caused by Republicans and the Reagan-Bush years, and frankly, I don't want to spend my time on your very important show either defending the great society and the $2.6 trillion that we've spent since 1965 on the war on poverty. Some of it might have worked; some of it has worked. Some of it was nobly intended and didn't work, but it's more important what we do now between the Congress, the President, the HUD, and the cabinet, and the mayors and the governors of the states. I don't think it's helpful to any debate to just have people throwing low yield nuclear political bombs across the two parties. I think Marlin was responding to the fear and the fact that he was -- or he was defending a President who has had an agenda before the United States Congress for three years to create more jobs in the inner city, to expand job training, to give homeownership opportunities to people in the poorest areas in the community, the ghetto and barrio, to radically alter the welfare system to encourage work, savings, investment, and family, and to provide educational choice, all of which, all of which has been stymied in the Congress. And for me to say that, however, makes me say there are members of Congress who I just talked to who want to do something, and my hope is that now we might just get a chance to act on behalf of creating the opportunity and jobs and growth for the inner cities.

MR. LEHRER: Then you're saying that the last 12 years with Republican Presidents, Mr. Reagan and now Mr. Bush, this problem has gotten worse because Congress did not act?

SEC. KEMP: Well, I tried to give a perspective on the problem. Congress for 12 years has not passed enterprise zones. Now, let me ask you a question. Why has Congress -- bless their hearts -- many of them are good friends of mine -- why have they failed to give a bipartisan, Democrat and Republican idea, sponsored by everybody from Charles Rangel of Harlem to John Lewis of Atlanta to the Conservative Opportunity Society, the Hispanic Caucus, and every mayor or many mayors anyway, why haven't they given us a chance to greenline the redlined areas of the inner city to flood it with capital investment, entrepreneurship and more job opportunities? Now, I don't think the President of the United States should take the blame for joblessness if the Congress doesn't act on the President's agenda to try to put some private enterprise, entrepreneurial capitalism, into the inner cities.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Secretary, let me ask you this. One of the things that has emerged in this Presidential election up till now, and all the polls indicate it, is that the American people are tired of politicians -- nobody takes responsibility for anything. Now --

SEC. KEMP: I do. I'll take responsibility. I want to do something.

MR. LEHRER: All right. Let me finish my question. Here we have this incredible uproar in the land, not only in Los Angeles, but in other cities, and whatever. The Democrats blame the President and now today, you Republicans are blaming the Democrats. So what is the public to believe on this?

SEC. KEMP: Well, I hope you get more out of this conversation, Jim, than just, again, throwing political charges across the political aisle. I'm trying to say that Congress has a responsibility to give the President of the United States a budget that includes enterprise zones to create jobs. You want me to take the blame for not getting it through?

MR. LEHRER: No.

SEC. KEMP: I'm not trying to get the blame, but I think it's important for your viewers to know that if Fitzwater is frustrated by great society programs to prevent poor people from savings, do you know there's a law that says a woman on AFDC payments cannot have more than a thousand dollars of assets in the bank at any one time? Now, we're trying to encourage savings, but we tell people on welfare, don't save. The job -- if a woman takes a job and she's on welfare or an unemployed father takes a job, their income goes down. Now, the President wants to change that and I'm asking that the Congress deal with this issue in a bipartisan way and some of the ideas that the President has are good. And some of the ideas that the mayors will have are good, and frankly, some of the ideas that we come out of this cauldron with will be good for the inner cities, but the point is we should act, and you're right to charge us with the responsibility to act.

MR. LEHRER: All right. Who is responsible? Who is responsible for solving this serious problem in the nation right now?

SEC. KEMP: I think the federal government -- I'm going to say here I am a conservative Republican, bleeding heart conservative Republican, and I believe government has a responsibility, but not just to spend more money, or redistribute wealth. The government has a responsibility to change the welfare laws to encourage savings and work and families that stay together, not break up [a]; [b] we should encourage parental choice in education; [c] we should give people who live in public housing communities and federally-assisted housing communities a chance to convert to ownership of a home and give them a stake in the neighborhood. People who have a stake in a community don't riot. They don't pillage or plunder. And you have people growing up in America, unfortunately, caused in some part by government policies that never have had a job, they never have owned a piece of property, they never have known what it is to get a paycheck, and that is what we, together, need to do at the federal level, the state level, and at the local level, put incentives back into the cities to encourage investment, entrepreneurship, ownership, family values, and responsible behavior, but also encourage the expansion of educational choice and opportunity that is at the heart of the American dream.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Secretary, you have been identified with these very issues throughout your political career and you show compassion when you speak of them, as you just did now. Does the President share your passion?

SEC. KEMP: The President shares my passion. He doesn't say it the way I do. I just talked to Dan Rostenkowski and Tom Foley and they share concern, and they don't express it the way I do. I don't think they have to say it like Jack Kemp. Bill Bradley has been talking about this. Mike Espey, a liberal Democrat and member of the Black Caucus from Mississippi, shares my passion. The mayor of LA just asked for Congress to pass enterprise zone bills, and I just spoke last week I think to the conference of black mayors who endorsed this agenda. It's not my agenda or Bush's agenda per se, even though it's in his budget. The point is it should be done. It's the right thing to do. And they're doing it in Eastern Europe and in Russia. You think we could try it in East Harlem and East St. Louis and East L.A.

MR. LEHRER: But why has it not been done? That's what I'm trying to get at.

SEC. KEMP: There is a resistance to change. There is a resistance to change. There is a resistance in the bureaucracy. There's a resistance, frankly, in the Congress. How else can you explain that Charles Rangel of East Harlem, Mike Espey of the Delta of Mississippi, and the Democratic Party, the Black Caucus, the Conservative Opportunity Society Caucus, the Hispanic Caucus -- I mean, everybody wants to do it, except we can't get it through the leadership of the United States Congress. Now, I'm not just saying it's Congress's fault. I'm not saying that, but I do believe that the President wants to move as quickly as he can and he is going to call upon the Congress to move, and it may very well be that some good can come out of this terrible, terrible tragedy.

MR. LEHRER: But what does this say about -- or does it speak to some of the deeper problems of racism in the country, the fact that those white police officers beat up Rodney King -- I mean, what about the other problems associated with this incident and this tragedy?

SEC. KEMP: I am going to say something that will make me sound like almost an economic determinist. And while I'm not totally, I am absolutely convinced again that when an economy begins to contract, when the pie is shrinking, when people are out of work, when a father cannot put bread on the table for his children, when families don't have a stake in a neighborhood and live on the welfare plantation, if you will, to coin a metaphor, you get the hopelessness and despair. Now, I'm not excusing rioting or killing or plundering property, but from time in memorial, where people have nothing but the shirt on their back and own nothing of value, have nothing to pass on to their children, don't have jobs, don't have opportunities, there's 50 percent unemployment in Watts, teenage unemployment probably is double that. There's very little - - there's not enough ownership of property. People don't have enough of a stake in the community. And they love their community. The vast majority of black and Hispanic and Anglo and Asian people are not rioting, but the ones who did, some are criminal, some are gangs, but they're not all gangs and criminals. There are people who are frustrated and hope -- have a despair about their lives and this is happening too often to those young teenagers who are turning to the streets. And we've got to change their attitude and their expectations about the future. And the only way to do that, in my view, is good education, more jobs for the inner cities, a better tax base for our cities, and investing in ownership of property in our cities.

MR. LEHRER: So if this situation had happened where you had a jury return that verdict in the Rodney King case, that if we had not had these economic problems in those various areas of the United States, you would not have the silent reaction?

SEC. KEMP: Well, again, I don't want to take it that far. I appreciate the question, but it would push me beyond where I want to go. You might have still had the reaction. There is police brutality. The police deal with incredible social problems; so do our teachers; so do parents, for that matter. So people lose their temper, and there's no excuse for it. The President has called for an empaneled federal grand jury, the FBI and the Justice Department, to investigate the violation of civil rights, and the miscarriage of justice, if there is one, and frankly, just not having seen all the transcripts or all the testimony, it looks to me like most Americans that there was a miscarriage of justice. And the President has move forcefully into this vacuum to restore order and to have an investigation and to also investigate the civil rights of the Korean businesses that were plundered and pillaged and the loss of life in Los Angeles. So I think he has acted prudently and responsibly and effectively. The next question, however, is: What can we do to inject economic power, opportunity, jobs, ownership, entrepreneurship, better education, more choice? And you asked me about the Congress and the great society programs. Frankly, spending has gone up $2.6 trillion since 1965 on war on poverty programs. Some have worked; some haven't. But Congress, "in their infinite wisdom," cut vouchers. We are giving vouchers to 4.5 million people today, are getting federal assistance to choose where they want to live, instead of being packed into a public housing community. There's far more choice and power and empowerment in a voucher than there is in leaving people having to live where the federal government says you have to live in one neighborhood all stacked up on top of each other in a public housing community. It's amazing that public housing residents have not lost more hope. In fact, Jim, in Los Angeles, at Vernon Downes and at Mission Gardens, the residents who are involved in patrol and management and control and ultimately our homesteading program were making sure that there was no violence, no pillaging, no plundering, no attack on property. Where people have a stake in a community, they don't attack their own community. And I believe that from the bottom of my heart. It has nothing to do with color. It has to do with the feeling that you have about the future of your neighborhood.

MR. LEHRER: All right. Mr. Secretary, thank you very much.

SEC. KEMP: Thank you, sir.

MR. MacNeil: Now the views of five big city mayors. Each of these mayors had to cope with a variety of violent reactions in their communities in the aftermath of the Rodney King verdict. Joining us in Atlanta is Mayor Maynard Jackson, in Madison, Wisconsin, Mayor Paul Soglin, in Omaha, Nebraska, Mayor P.J. Morgan, in San Francisco, Mayor Frank Jordan, and Tampa, Mayor Sandra Friedman. Mayor Friedman, how do you react to Sec. Kemp's answers that if the Congress would get on with the President's agenda -- and you heard the list of items in it -- that this situation would be a great deal better, and that is the White House answer?

MAYOR FREEDMAN: Well, I think it's beyond that. I think it's really the question of the President speaking out regularly and with feeling about the plight of the cities. That hasn't happened in many years and even without additional money coming to the cities, I think if we had a President who stood firm as to the importance of cities and how they've got to remain strong and we've got to invest in our cities and we ask businesses to stay in our cities, as opposed to fleeing for our city, then cities would come back. But we haven't had that in a long time, and until we do have that in conjunction with speaking out against racism and bigotry and injustice with feeling and with regularity, then we're still going to suffer in the cities.

MR. MacNeil: Mayor Jordan, in San Francisco, do you think the President has got -- and Jack Kemp have got the right list of things to be concentrating on, and if the Congress would move on them, that this -- these situations, the rot in the inner cities would be, would disappear?

MAYOR JORDAN: Well, I think only partially. What bothered me -- I listened to the President the other night when he gave a state of his feelings about the tragedy down in Los Angeles in the aftermath of the Rodney King beating and the innocent verdict that came out, "not guilty," we were all shocked and stunned and the President talked about sending federal troops in to maintain order and stabilize the situation. He talked about the Department of Justice going into Los Angeles, looking at the civil rights violations for Rodney King and others who might have been victimized, but he said absolutely nothing -- which surprised me - - about the cities, themselves, where mayors have -- you look at the national TV and look at national newspapers every day and you see budget deficits and people laying off workers by the thousands. You see inadequate health care. You see people who are looking for jobs. You see people who, unbelievably, that are in a situation where they just don't feel that there's any kind of affordable housing. There's a sense of hopelessness in many of the cities, and they're saying and they're crying out for help. And it's the basic foundation of any country, is the cities around this country. And what you have to do is build a solid foundation because if you don't, if you have a structure with no foundation, there's collapse all around you if you let it go too long. My sense is that's what's happened. I realize that the President has a difficult job to do, but he has to listen to the mayors, particularly of the major cities, as they see the seething undercurrent that's taking place in our various cities. And we have to have help from the federal government. None of us have a tax base big enough to take care of the underlying problems. So you have to look at education, jobs, housing, homeless problems. Everything is starting to develop. I'm working very hard in San Francisco, looking at the economic base, because I know that if you create a solid economic base, that means you create jobs. But there has to be that sense of feeling good about yourself and a feeling of belonging that is not there in many cities right now, because they don't see a positive future, many, many people.

MR. MacNeil: Let me move on for a moment here. P.J. Morgan in Omaha, do you think the administration has the right list of things on its agenda to deal with what's wrong with American cities?

MAYOR MORGAN: Well, I certainly think the enterprise zones are part of that solution. I also believe that Jack Kemp has addressed affordable housing -- I know here in Omaha, we've been successful in getting rid of some of the housing that causes the hopelessness and tearing that down, and building new housing in neighborhoods throughout our city, and I think that's one important area, because I think those are real causes, the housing and the job opportunities that have to be addressed. I also would say to you that I think that the federal government with their own budget problems aren't going to be able to solve this problem for us. I think that we have to in our cities be able to form those partnerships and let the people know in our communities that this isn't going to be solved just by government alone. I think the private sector, the large corporations, and others, have to be partners in creating those opportunities and a feeling that there are doors open.

MR. MacNeil: Whose responsibility is it, Maynard Jackson -- you heard the question Jim asked Sec. Kemp -- whose responsibility is it to do something to help the big cities of America?

MAYOR JACKSON: The President is the leader. The street of the boss is street of the crew; good boss, good crew; bad boss, bad crew. I want to focus on what we can do. I believe that, first of all, in a nation where 80 percent of Americans live on 2 percent of the land, we're a nation of cities and we need a comprehensive, national urban policy which we do not have.

MR. MacNeil: Wasn't what Sec. Kemp just outlined a comprehensive urban policy?

MAYOR JACKSON: Sec. Kemp has mentioned a number of items which are very useful as a part of a policy, but there is no comprehensive national urban policy in America. There's no road map to go from Point A to Point B and there needs to be. No. 2, we need to drop the North American Free Trade Agreement. It will rape the cities of jobs. No. 3, the Rebuild America Coalition, which I'm privileged to chair this year, 50 national organizations, fighting for investment in infrastructure can help America in a win-win situation, because for every $1 billion of infrastructure investment, we generate 50,000 new jobs. Japan in infrastructure investment is No. 1 in the world. America is 55th.

MR. MacNeil: You're talking about bridges, highways, mass transit, rail?

MAYOR JACKSON: All of that.

MR. MacNeil: All of that.

MAYOR JACKSON: Airports, all of the infrastructure, the things we cannot see, the things that flood, the things that blow up under the ground, the deferred maintenance, all over America we have a crisis that is $2 trillion big. Yet, Japan just announced a few months ago a $7 trillion infrastructure investment program. Productivity, competitiveness depends on it. The final thing is this verdict in the Rodney King case was a despicable travesty of justice. We need a leader to come out now and say from the White House that we're not going to tolerate this kind of injustice and not call for another investigation, but to call for the Justice Department now to prosecute the King beaters. Let me make one thing clear though.

MR. MacNeil: Can they prosecute before a federal grand jury indicts the people?

MAYOR JACKSON: I think if the President were to call for the Justice Department getting on the aggressive side, rather than the reactive side, that would be the right thing to do. There was another thing we need to understand here though. We've got a whole generation of young people who have come up. They do not know King. I'm talking about Martin Luther King. They have no prevailing commitment to the philosophy of non-violent, social action. Many, not all, were raised in greater privilege. They were told in integrated schools that the American dream works for you 100 percent, just like anybody else. They saw the Rodney King tapes on TV and they have freaked out. They do not understand. They are confused and they are looking for the strategies to address their grievances. Those strategies must be non-violent. No matter what we do, a change in America cannot be addressed through violence.

MR. MacNeil: Mayor Soglin in Madison, what did you think of Sec. Kemp's prescription?

MAYOR SOGLIN: I think it's only a portion of the solution really. And it goes back to the issue of those former social programs that Marlin Fitzwater so easily dismissed earlier today. It seems to me that the first thing we have to do is determine what the overall problem is and the administration and the Congress both blame one another. Sitting where we do, what we see is an absence of will, an absence of will in terms of dealing with these issues. When we do things locally, we've got to determine how effective they are, and they can -- both the Congress and the White House point fingers at one another. The bottom line is they have been ineffective, and they haven't determined a will for us to move forward.

MR. MacNeil: How do you explain that absence of will?

MAYOR SOGLIN: I think it's partially because during the Reagan administration there was such a success in dismantling these programs in urban America. What I find to be a bit of an irony is that we demand certain types of business or professional standards in looking at what happens in the public sector. When I go back and I look at our block grant programs, when I go back and look at the CETA program, when I go back and look at these other programs that we had during the 1970s, I see many successes. I see many successes not only in my own community, but in other communities, the kinds of successes that built neighborhoods, that gave that stake that Jack Kemp was talking about to people of our communities. And yet, we do not go in and look at what was effective. We have no standard of measurement. And I believe it stems from the trickle down attitude that we have. We've got the pyramid upsidedown in this country. And I don't know when the administration and some members of Congress are going to come to see it.

MR. MacNeil: I'm sorry -- can I -- I'm sorry, Mr. Soglin, finish your thought. I didn't mean to interrupt you.

MAYOR SOGLIN: The one thing is that they're going to have to understand that there are tens of millions of Americans who do not have the job skills, who do not have the economic opportunity that is necessary to make this country strong. I don't believe they understand the long range implications of their policies.

MR. MacNeil: Mayor Freedman in Tampa, how did you respond to the Marlin Fitzwater White House line that we're paying the price now for failed liberal welfare programs of the '60s and '70s?

MAYOR FREEDMAN: Well, I don't really think that's the answer. I think that they dispersed the blame and yes, some of those programs didn't work, but most of those programs did work. And we can still see the fruits of those programs. I think what it means is that they've got to point the finger in another direction because in recent years there hasn't been an urban agenda, as has been said, and that programs are not forthcoming from the federal government. But I don't expect a handout. I expect a hand up, a helping hand. I think for me and my community, the greatest thing that could happen in order to assist this city is not so much dollars as an articulation that cities are a vital part of this country. They're the centers of commerce, of government, of a cultural life of the community, that people live in the cities have a dynamic role to play, and that everybody has got to come together to make cities better, not to flee from the cities, but to provide those things that are necessary to make the cities strong.

MR. MacNeil: Mayor Freedman, you had in Tampa some violence after the Rodney King verdict. You heard what Maynard Jackson just said. How did you relate that to the problems your city faces?

MAYOR FREEDMAN: We had a little bit of violence the other night, but back in 1987, we had three nights of violence, again, sparked by some police action. And since that time, we have really tried to go into the communities and work with the people and have people understand that we're only going to solve this together. I think there still remains opportunity for continued civil unrest because there is a hopelessness and there is the feeling that nobody cares and that results from the fact that there isn't enough that we can do alone. But I think that the American people ought to cry out for the leadership that's demanded to assist the cities through not only developing some programs -- and we know what those are -- from Head Start all the way to Enterprize Zones -- but really in having somebody who's going to say that people in the cities are important and we can't turn away from them. And we've got to turn toward them and help them and reach out one to another, each and every day, not just after a Rodney King incident, but every day. And that's not been happening. And we've got to say it's got to happen.

MR. MacNeil: Mayor Jordan in San Francisco, how did you relate what happened in your city -- there were some riots and some looting -- to the government urban policy? What is the connection between the two?

MAYOR JORDAN: Well, there is partly a connection, although I did have my first night on Thursday night some looting that took place and some violence, but we were fortunate. We did not have any arson or torching of buildings. We did not have any physical violence, where someone was injured seriously or killed, because we reacted quickly here, first declared a state of emergency, and then put in a curfew from 9 PM to 6 AM, which was followed the second night as well. And that did stabilize the situation, although we had over 1100 arrests the first night and 580 on the second night, but that did seem to stabilize and defuse the situation. But then we had a coming together of a number of people in an interdenominational faith healing, I guess it would be called, yesterday in a church service, which brought in everyone. And we started talking about the very issues we're discussing now on television. And that's exactly what we saw, that the federal government should be attuned to some of our concerns, but also should be -- they used examples like the State Department now in the cold war could be looking at some federal funds now redirected from the national security to the cities, as an example. Or we can look at some of the ones where we're subsidizing countries to grow food and help them, but, in fact, they're growing drugs, that money could be certainly sent to the cities to help with the educational programs and the health programs. In my city alone, this may surprise you, but 33 percent of our population have no health insurance whatsoever. And the cities, by default, are the ones who have to take care of this. The money just isn't there. We have to look to government to help us.

MR. MacNeil: Mayor Soglin, how do you relate the unrest in -- there was a little in your city, in Madison -- to the problems of the city? I mean, how do you make the connection, Rodney King, violence, city problems?

MAYOR SOGLIN: I think the question goes much deeper than that. It goes much deeper than Jack Kemp was willing to acknowledge. It was not the verdict in the King -- or we should say those police officers' trial that made the difference. It has been literally decades of urban neglect, decades of underemployment for even those who have jobs. It's the infrastructure that Maynard Jackson's talking about that's fallen apart. Maynard and I both returned into public office as a Mayor in 1989. And if there is one thing that struck me at that time compared to back in the 1970s, it was the fact that the Mayors, themselves, seemed to have almost give up hope that they had been so brow beaten, they had been so ignored by the administration, that they'd lost any hope of seeing participation in a partnership with the federal government. 1990, there's two things that we'd asked for -- one, we'd asked for a meeting with the President, and I think that our president of our organization, Ray Flynn, has again renewed that request for a meeting of the President with a group of mayors. Maybe it's about time that we should have that conference.

MR. MacNeil: The President has refused to meet with the Conference of Mayors?

MAYOR SOGLIN: We have had a difficult time. We have not been able to get him to attend any of our meetings or to address us. I'm just really disappointed in his ignoring the mayors of this country. But the second thing is a matter of more substance rather than of form. At that time, we were asking for $5 billion to start an urban agenda. And let me just put that 5 billion into perspective. What was it? How many hundreds of billions did we use for the savings & loans? When we were in the Persian Gulf, the cost was $500 million a day, in other words, 10 days in the Persian Gulf is what we were looking for America's cities for one year.

MR. MacNeil: Mayor Jackson, how do you elaborate on that, this - - you had some violence in Jackson too, and I'd like -- I'm sorry in Atlanta too -- make the connection between Rodney King and violence and the problems of the cities.

MAYOR JACKSON: The violence here was an outcry, it seems to me, of frustration. Regardless of the reason, however, violence is not justified. It's interesting, the students who may be watching, they should know that Paul Soglin was one of the most dynamic student leaders in the 1960s and he too understood the way to address our grievances is through the most perfect revolutionary act in the democracy and that's voting. And that's why he and I went into politics and he and I came back so we are pre-Reagan and post- Reagan mayors. Let me just tell why there's a big difference now. When we were mayor the first time, I from '74 to '82, we had $49 million a year in discretionary federal spending. Now, it's 9 million -- from 49 down to 9. We used that money in poor areas of Atlanta. No. 2, while I was out of office, 80 percent of all the federal money was killed by the Reagan administration. No. 3, with the help of the Congress, unfortunately, the '86 Tax Reform Act killed off the incentives to the private sector to develop better housing. Now, when we combine racial and economic oppression with constant, visible reminders of the inhumanity of people walking around the cities in the world's greatest nation, groveling in garbage cans to get their lunch, and we walk by as if they don't exist, that builds a resentment. It builds an unbelievability, a lack of credibility that the American dream is for everybody. I believe in the American dream. And that's why we're fighting for it, through the most peaceful, non-violent means of changing public policy, and that's called politics. We need help. We need it now.

MR. MacNeil: Mayor Morgan, in Omaha, you had some racial assaults on a smaller scale than some of these other cities, and a cross burning following the Rodney King verdict. How do you connect that -- I understand we lost a connection with you a moment ago, but I don't know whether you've heard the other mayors -- we've been talking about what the connection is between whatever happened in their cities and the urban problems, the lack of hope, or whatever it is, as Mayor Jackson's just put it, people no longer believing that the American dream applies to them.

MAYOR MORGAN: Well, I did miss some of that. I think that there is a virus in our cities throughout this nation, and I think we, you know, try to make certain that we're doing all we can to treat those viruses and not just react. You know, I think the Rodney King incident, unfortunate, tragic miscarriage of justice certainly brought out that anger. But I believe those feelings were there because of the hopelessness that exists in our cities.

MR. MacNeil: You've earlier said that you didn't think the federal government had all the responsibility. What is the one thing -- I'd just like to go around to each of you in conclusion - - what is the one thing that could happen to Omaha that would help you that the federal government and the Congress and the administration could agree would really make a brighter future for Omaha?

MAYOR MORGAN: Well, I certainly think the enterprise zones are a part of that. I think the investment in the infrastructure. I think Maynard Jackson addressed that to some extent when he talked about that investment, the jobs and the other mayors. I think that's an important part of that.

MR. MacNeil: What would it take, in Omaha's terms, in terms of millions of billions -- can you hear me -- I guess you can't. I'll come back to you in a moment. Mayor Jordan in San Francisco, what is the one thing the federal government could do if the two branches agree that would be of immediate help to San Francisco?

MAYOR JORDAN: What I'd like to see is to go back to the days of Franklin Roosevelt where we he had the Works Project Administration, where we could start looking at an infusion of federal funds to start people working again, but on projects that are beneficial to their own, immediate cities and surrounding area, the regionalization for me with the nine area counties. Those are things that will get people back to work. It will stabilize an economy and it will I think then give us this ability that we're looking for to help in our own areas, but with the infusion of federal funds.

MR. MacNeil: Mayor Freedman.

MAYOR FREEDMAN: I think the jobs are important, but I also think housing is tremendously important. The federal government has cut housing these last ten or twelve years by over 80 percent. And there's just no way that decent, affordable housing can be provided. Certainly when you have thousands of people living on top of each other in public housing, you have to expect that there are some difficulties that occur. So housing assistance would be greatly helped throughout the country.

MR. MacNeil: Do you agree with Sec. Kemp that the way -- the proper way out of that is to provide housing that people can own or help them to own their own housing or vouchers for housing, is that the right solution?

MAYOR FREEDMAN: I think there are a variety of ways that you can deal with the housing problems, but I think you have to craft them for each particular community and some of the programs, quite honestly, that they've created even cause more bureaucracy than they've had in the past. So I think that it's beneficial for each community to create their own, because their circumstances are very different.

MR. MacNeil: Mayor Soglin, what is the one thing the federal government could do that would help Madison?

MAYOR SOGLIN: Help us build strong neighborhoods. Whether there's poverty or not, when you look at the background and the history of urban evolution in America, as long as there were strong neighborhoods, there was hope and there was opportunity, and it means going into these neighborhoods and talking to the people, and working with the strengths in those neighborhoods. And we've been doing that in our community and we hear the same things. We need job training. We need jobs. We need child care and we need transportation. And the federal government has failed us in all of those areas.

MR. MacNeil: All right. That's the end of our time. I'd like to thank you all, Mayor Jackson, Soglin, Morgan, Jordan, Freedman, thank you all. FINALLY - A TIME FOR HEALING

MR. LEHRER: Finally tonight a report from Los Angeles. It is once again from Correspondent Jeffrey Kaye of public station KCET who did the reporting for us last week on the Rodney King verdict and the violent aftermath. Tonight his report is on healing.

MR. KAYE: As the sun rose Saturday, it was clear that the arrival of federal troops had made a difference. The number of overnight incidents dropped dramatically from the first two nights. When the overnight curfew had passed and citizens were free to come and go, hundreds of volunteers from all over Los Angeles descended on the devastated businesses and streets of the South Central neighborhoods. Just as law enforcement had made their show of force, so did these people. Armed with tools to begin the clean- up, brooms, rakes, shovels, and plastic bags, they were determined to make their own contributions by beginning a healing process. But only a block away, the residents of this scorched apartment building were filled with rage, trying to cope with the loss of something so basic as the roof over their heads.

MAN: I got to pay the building -- I got to pay the mortgage. I got to pay the insurance. I got to pay the electric bill. I can't pay it if we don't collect the rent.

WOMAN: I know. But who's going to pay my furniture, my everything, because everything is wrecked?

MR. KAYE: The owner of the building had come to listen, to talk about relocation arrangements. Tenants in this building felt their landlord should help with moving costs. Evon Davis was one of the burned out renters.

EVON DAVIS: Wednesday night I went to bed, I had a home. Thursday morning I woke up, got my kids dressed, I don't have a home and this is what's left, ashes to ashes and dust to dust. This is it, nothing livable, nothing to repair. Okay, and this man wants us to move into a building like this and continue to pay? I mean, this is a death trap. This is a hazardous zone. I mean, if the walls could talk, they would tell you there was a family here.

MR. KAYE: Davis had no choice but to take her three children and move in with friends. The Red Cross opened a nearby shelter providing the tenants with bed and board, but Susie Cooper was afraid vandals might invade her apartment if she left it.

SUSIE COOPER: For me, taking five children to a shelter, leaving what little I have left for the vandals to come and take tonight, this is all I own.

MR. KAYE: In the aftermath of the riots, routine activities became arduous chores. People lined up at post offices to receive welfare and Social Security checks that were normally delivered to their mail boxes. The National Guard protected government buildings and businesses. Police agencies provided escorts to emergency vehicles and watched out as crews from utility companies worked to restore services. Many neighborhoods had gone without electricity for days. But the day belonged to volunteers. Civilians directed traffic at dangerous and congested intersections such as Manchester and Vermont, where a power failure had knocked out traffic lights. Other volunteers brought food and beverages to those maintaining order. All over the city people began the day as strangers and ended up as friends, people such as this group, including Pamela Harris, a civilian dispatcher at the Santa Monica Police Department.

PAMELA HARRIS: We've basically been at it since about 8 this morning, yeah.

MR. KAYE: Why are you doing this?

MS. HARRIS: Because I care.

MR. KAYE: For Pamela Harris and thousands of other Angelinos, Sunday morning brought time for reflection and pause. Churches played the role they so often have in the black community as centers for community organization, as well as sanctuaries for the spirit. Pastor Rocella Johnson at the Bethany Baptist Church in West Los Angeles urged his congregation to find solace through prayer. Johnson told congregants to consider themselves blessed that they had come through days of violence relatively unscathed, but he said much work remained.

REV. ROCELLA JOHNSON: Can Los Angeles be healed? -- [preaching]

MR. KAYE: Sunday afternoon the Bethel AME Church became a food distribution center. The effort had been publicized so residents from all over the Los Angeles area came to donate goods. Volunteers kept busy handing out food to anyone who requested it, no questions asked. Many walked for blocks to get here. Church member Paul Percly rounded up a group of students from UCLA to help deliver boxes of food to people who could not come to the church. Percly makes his living delivering paper goods to commercial customers all over Southern California. Yesterday he drove his car, providing desperately needed food goods to grateful residents of South Central Los Angeles. Jack Jones seemed frustrated by the shortages he was now facing.

JACK JONES: Man, we ain't got nothin'. We ain't got no bread. There's no stores around here, nothin'. They tore up everything. It's like we got to go way out somewhere and some people don't have transportation or nothing. It's like you got to survive on what you got till later.

MR. KAYE: Yeah. You don't have enough gas in the car?

JACK JONES: Man, don't even talk about gas. You can't even find a gas station. It's like you either walk -- and I'm glad they finally got some buses running.

MR. KAYE: Another recipient was 57 year old Arleauge Timmons. Timmons has no car and her arthritis keeps her from walking more than a few blocks. She relied on the corner grocery store for her food, but that's no longer an option.

MR. KAYE:Before these disturbances --

ARLEAGUE TIMMONS: I walked down on the corner and got my food.

MR. KAYE: And what happened to the store?

MS. TIMMONS: It burned up. And they were really -- you know, to see people down there with tears in their eyes -- it was just something to see. I never seen nothing like this before.

MR. KAYE: It turns out that the store Ms. Timmons shopped at was in a row of businesses that were looted, then torched by rioters, among them a beauty shop owned by the Martinez family. They not only lost their store, they lost their home.

MR. KAYE: You lived up there too?

DAVID MARTINEZ: We used to live up there and we used to have a business down here.

MR. KAYE: Where are you going to live now?

DAVID MARTINEZ: We live with some of our family in East LA right now.

MR. KAYE: You have to move to East LA now?

MR. MARTINEZ: Yeah. As you can see, we lost everything.

MR. KAYE: As dusk approached yesterday, authorities hoped this would be the last day the curfew would be necessary. Residents were also anticipating the restored freedom to travel at night would be another sign the crisis had passed. Today parts of Los Angeles still look like an occupied war zone. Government agencies were gearing to repair the devastation and businesses were getting down to the nuts and bolts of restoration. Residents are now taking the time to reflect on what went wrong. Schools resumed today and at Hollywood High School, teacher Kenny Long tried to help his students understand the turbulent events of the past week.

KENNY LONG: Can you just call off some words, single words?

STUDENT: Racism.

MR. LONG: Racism.

STUDENT: Poverty.

MR. LONG: Poverty.

STUDENT: Advantage.

MR. LONG: Advantage, you mean taking advantage of the situation? Okay.

STUDENT: Violence.

MR. LONG: What else?

STUDENT: Violence.

MR. LONG: Violence. I heard a wonderful word I'd like to put up there. I'd like to make that in capital letters. We're going to deal with this word a lot -- ignorance. What else?

MR. KAYE: Officials are promising to throw the book at those arrested for looting. This morning, a congested court system made preparations to arraign the thousands booked on riot-related charges. The curfew has been lifted tonight throughout most of the Los Angeles area. But authorities warn that should disturbances reoccur, the curfew will go back into effect. RECAP

MR. MacNeil: Again, the main stories of this Monday, the dusk to dawn curfew was lifted in Los Angeles, but the city's mayor said federal troops would remain on the streets. The death toll from the violence rose to 55. White House Spokesman Marlin Fitzwater said 600 million dollars in federal aid and loans would be available for rebuilding. He also said social welfare programs of the sixties and seventies contributed to the unrest. Good night, Jim.

MR. LEHRER: Good night, Robin. We'll see you tomorrow night. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.