The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

Intro ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. Leading the news this Wednesday, Cuban prisoners seized more hostages today, as the prison standoff and negotiations continued. Mayor Harold Washington of Chicago died of a heart attack. Secretary of State Shultz said the U. S. would stop deploying Cruise missiles as soon as the INF Treaty is signed next month, but before it is ratified. We'll have details in our news summary in a moment. Judy Woodruff is in Washington tonight. Judy? JUDY WOODRUFF: After the news summary, the Cuban prison standoff is our lead focus tonight. We have an update and then hear from a U. S. Senator and an Atlanta lawyer who's been in on the talks with the inmates and an experienced hostage negotiator. Next, new tensions in El Salvador. A reporter who has been covering the story joins us. And finally, famine in Ethiopia. We get the latest from federal government and relief officials.News Summary WOODRUFF: The Pentagon sent a team of army special operations forces to the federal prison in Atlanta today, after Cuban inmates grabbed 25 additional hostages from a prison hospital. The total number of hostages being held grew to 94 in Atlanta, and remained at 28 in a similar standoff at the federal detention center at Oakdale, Louisiana. A White House spokesman said President Reagan is very concerned about the situation in both places, while the head of the Federal Bureau of Prisons met with reporters in Washington to try to reassure the inmates about the soldiers sent to the Atlanta facility.

MICHAEL QUINLAN, Federal Bureau of Prisons: We will take no steps, no invasive efforts will be made so long as the hostages are not harmed. And the families of the hostages, I know, are so concerned, and they have my commitment and the Attorney General's commitment that we will do nothing that will endanger the lives and the safety of those there. WOODRUFF: Negotiations with the inmates appear to be progressing better in Louisiana than they were in Atlanta, where the leadership among the inmates continues to be unsettled. One Atlanta hostage was overheard on a two way radio to be pleading with officials not to, in his words, ''do anything stupid, or they will kill us. '' Robin? MacNEIL: The mayor of Chicago, Harold Washington, died today after suffering a heart attack in his office. He was rushed to the hospital after a full cardiac arrest, but heart teams were unable to revive him. Washington, who was 65, was the city's first black mayor, first elected in 1983 after a bitter, racially charged election. His first term was marked by repeated battles with opponents from the regular Democratic machine, and became known as the Council Wars. Washington was reelected last year. Earlier in his career he was a state representative and senator. Alderman David Orr, the interim mayor, said this after learning of Washington's death:

DAVID ORR, interim mayor: This city has lost a very good friend and a great mayor. We are asking everybody in the city to pull together in this very difficult time. We appreciate the good work of this hospital in doing all that they could for the mayor. Again, the governmental processes will continue. We're quite comfortable that all the necessary work will be done. The procedure, as you may know, is that the vice mayor acts as interim mayor for a short period of time until the city council is able to come together to meet and to select a successor among itself. MacNEIL: Atlanta's Andrew Young, a friend, and like Washington, the black mayor of a large city, said Washington was a ''man who gave his life to his people. '' WOODRUFF: Secretary of State Shultz said today that the United States will stop deploying nuclear tipped Cruise missiles in Western Europe as soon as the U. S. signs an INF treaty with the Soviets, even before the deal is ratified by the Senate.

GEORGE SHULTZ, Secretary of State: Once the treaty is signed, it is our thought that at that point the activities, the deployments and the activities associated with it, would stop, and there would be a period of time between the signing and the ratification when you would, so to speak, hold things constant. And then once the treaty's ratified and put into effect, you start the process of taking the missiles out. And that's a three year process. Probably on the whole, that process will cost us, as I understand it, somewhere between $7 to $9 billion. WOODRUFF: Mr. Shultz made those remarks in Brussels after briefing NATO allies, who warmly endorsed the agreement. MacNEIL: In Haiti, there were four more killings, apparently related to Sunday's presidential election. Haiti has seen sporadic violence since November 2, when the council organizing the elections barred 12 candidates for being supporters of the former dictator Jean Claude Duvalier. Some observers said former Duvalier supporters and members of his dreaded security police, the Tontons Macoute, have started the violence to justify continued rule by the Haitian army. President Reagan announced that he is sending a U. S. delegation to Haiti to observe its first presidential election in 30 years. WOODRUFF: There were two bright pieces of economic news today. The government reported that orders to factories for so called big ticket durable goods rose a surprising . 3% last month, providing further evidence that the economy was gaining strength from the stock market crash in October. Also today, a report that Americans' personal income jumped 1. 7% last month, the biggest gain in 12 years. More than half that increase was due to federal subsidy payments to farmers. But on Wall Street, the Dow Jones industrial average fell almost 17 points, apparently because of concern over the continuing weakness of the U. S. dollar. One hundred forty million shares were traded. MacNEIL: There was another story from Wall Street today, this one involving Trans World Airlines chairman Carl Icahn and Texaco. Icahn announced that he plans to buy 12 million shares of the troubled oil company for $348 million. This would make TWA the biggest single shareholder in Texaco. The deal would also add a new complication to Texaco's longrunning multi billion dollar court fight with Pennzoil. In Torrance, California, firefighters declared a fire in a huge Mobile Oil refinery under control today. At least two workmen suffered minor injuries when an explosion rocked the refinery 25 miles southwest of Los Angeles late yesterday. One report said the FBI launched an investigation of the explosion after a caller claiming to be a member of a South American terrorist group claimed responsibility for the blast. WOODRUFF: The CIA announced today that one of its top officials, who was criticized for his role in the Iran contra affair, will be retiring at the end of this year. The spokesman said Claire George, Chief of the CIA's clandestine service, had made the decision on his own and had given no reason for it. George told Congress before the affair was made public that the CIA had nothing to do with helping the Nicaraguan contras, even though it later became clear that the CIA had been involved in the contra resupply effort . That wraps up our summary of the day's news. Just ahead on the NewsHour, the prison standoffs in Atlanta and Louisiana, new tensions in El Salvador, and the food crisis in Ethiopia. Standoff WOODRUFF: First tonight, we focus on the continuing and tense situations at two federal prisons. As we reported earlier, the Pentagon today sent military advisors to the Atlanta penitentiary where Cuban inmates early today seized 25 more hostages from a prison hospital, bringing the total number they are holding to 94. In Oakdale, Louisiana, Cuban prisoners continue to hold 28 hostages. We will discuss today's developments at both prisons in a moment, but first, correspondent Kwame Holman has this update from Atlanta.

KWAME HOLMAN: It was a night of conflicting developments in the Atlanta prison hostage story. Last night heavily armed SWAT teams rushed into the prison. The flurry of activity may have been part of a response to an effort by the Cuban detainees to take over the prison hospital. That effort reportedly succeeded in the predawn hours this morning. Twenty five prison employees had been stranded inside the hospital since the uprising began Monday. They now are hostages. Also last night, stretchers removed two injured prisoners. That apparently was part of cooperation between federal authorities and the 1,000 Cuban detainees who continue to maintain control of most of the prison. The detainees released five of the original group of hostages, perhaps in return for authorities allowing some reporters inside the prison for the first public statements by the detainees. DETAINEE [through translator]: We are waiting tonight -- if you make any intent to send us back to Cuba. REPORTER: They are willing to die here rather than go back? DETAINEE [through translator]: That's right. DETAINEE [through translator]: We have all the time that you want to negotiate, but we want to make sure we're not going back to Cuba and we're going to be free here. REPORTER: What about the Attorney General's offer of a moratorium? DETAINEE [through translator]: Well, the moratorium offered by the Attorney General doesn't mean that it's going to be applied to us. It's not nothing sure. We're tired of being promised.

HOLMAN: Reporters also talked to some hostages. HOSTAGE: I'd just like to say that we've been treated fair, and we've been treated well. We've been provided with food and medical facilities, and none of the hostages have been harmed. REPORTER: Do you think this is going to last a long time? HOSTAGE: I don't know, ma'am butI hope not. REPORTER: What about your family, do you want to say anything to them? HOSTAGE: I'd like to say to my family that I'm okay and hopefully this will end pretty soon.

HOLMAN: This afternoon, federal officials continued to evacuate to other facilities some of the Cuban detainees and a few American prisoners who had surrendered. Meanwhile, relatives of the hostages maintained their watch on a hillside just inside the prison fence. Despite the new hostage taking, the new cooperation between the Cuban detainees and authorities seems to have lightened the mood of some of the Cubans' families, who continue to stand vigil outside this prison. The release of five hostages and the knowledge that at least some of the remaining ones are being treated well has reassured some of the families that the standoff can be ended peacefully. WOODRUFF: The Director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons, Michael Quinlan met with reporters at the Justice Department today, and emphasized that no assault will be made on the prisoners as long as the hostages are not harmed. Quinlan refused to give details of any negotiations that are underway, but he stressed what a unique situation this is. MICHAEL QUINLAN, Director, Federal Bureau of Prisons: Where you have 1,038 or 1,500 detainees in a situation, you never are going to be able to have that many staff. You depend on good rules and discipline and good order to maintain those kinds of situations. Unfortunately, a group action, initiated by some external force, unrelated to the prison environment, occurs. Those kinds of situations can -- in the history of corrections -- I don't think there's ever been a situation ignited in a prison external to the conditions in the prison itself. This is the first in correction's history. REPORTER: -- coordinating some strategy here -- can you tell us something about the nature of the negotiations? What is being asked for and what is the strategy from here? Mr. QUINLAN: Okay, the lead person in this situation is Attorney General Meese. I have the immediate responsibility, since I am the Director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons. The negotiators are both in the Bureau of Prisons and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. They're extremely well trained negotiators. The details of negotiation at this point in such a sensitive situation would be absolutely impractical and just not a good thing for me to discuss at this point. REPORTER: Has there been any movement? Mr. QUINLAN: We continue to have a flow of information between the detainees and the staff at both locations. REPORTER: What can you tell us about reports that there are difficulties due to the fact that the inmates are divided, particularly in Atlanta? Mr. QUINLAN: There have been reports that the inmates at the two institutions have fragmented leadership. We think that the leadership at Oakdale has crystallized, and that we are very hopeful that from further discussions there can be some resolution in the near future. We're not quite as comfortable that that leadership has crystallized in Atlanta, but I certainly am hopeful that with the continuation of discussion we will reach an accord in that institution also in the very near future. REPORTER: Exactly how could all of this have been avoided? Mr. QUINLAN: If I knew the answer to that question, I would have -- REPORTER: Could it have been avoided? Mr. QUINLAN: I don't think that that kind of answer can be given until we get all the facts, after the incidents are resolved, and we'llobviously be willing to discuss with you all of the measures that we took, all the information we had -- REPORTER: In your own judgment -- Mr. QUINLAN: In my own judgment? Could it have been avoided? In my own judgment, I don't think it could have been avoided. REPORTER: How unique a case is this for you? Mr. QUINLAN: Well, let me say that this kind of situation is unique. Obviously, we only have one group of this nature in the federal prison system where we're holding people awaiting return to a country where there has been this interruption of relationship and where there has been some delay in the enactment of the treaty. REPORTER: How long do you think the prisoners and the hostages can hold out inside there? Are we talking about another week, or days, I mean, as far as supplies or testing of your patience? Mr. QUINLAN: My patience is endless. I think that the situation will go on so long as the hostages are unharmed. WOODRUFF: With us now to discuss the situations in Atlanta and Louisiana are Democratic U. S. Senator John Breaux in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, who has assisted in the negotiations at Oakdale, and Gary Leshaw, a staff attorney for the Atlanta Legal Aid Society, who has been part of the negotiations on behalf of the Cubans. He joins us from Public Station WPBA in Atlanta. Mr. Leshaw, let me ask you about the situation there first. You just heard Kwame Holman's report in which he said there are both bad signs in the sense that more hostages were taken, but then good signs in that there's been some cooperation. What do you see there from your perspective? GARY LESHAW, Atlanta Legal Aid Society: Well, initially, we had problems in establishing a leadership among the Cuban detainees in Atlanta. When I went in Monday evening, we spoke with some four detainees, and we thought we had hammered out a deal; however, they weren't able to sell it to the rest of the group. And I know it's been continuing difficulty that leadership is not established among the detainees in Atlanta. WOODRUFF: Why do you think that is? Why has that been such a problem? Mr. LESHAW: Well, there's a large number of detainees in the facility. There are some 1400 and we don't know how many were involved in this incident, and just with the number of people involved, it was difficult to get either one person or a group of persons who could speak to the entire group. The individuals who are in charge of negotiating in Atlanta, from my observation, is an amateur doing an excellent job trying to keep things moving. And I suspect that they still were. My role as an attorney who has represented many of these people was simply to lend whatever help that I could. I was called in because some requested that I be there. Unfortunately we weren't able to resolve it, and I'm available should the need arise again. Otherwise, I think that we need to hope that the negotiators continue to do the job that they've been doing. WOODRUFF: The wire services were reporting this afternoon that now it appears that one of the inmates who is in control, or among the leading group of inmates, is one of the most closely guarded prisoners in the entire federal system. How dangerous is it that we have longtime prisoners such as this one who's now joined these Cuban detainees? Mr. LESHAW: I think they were speaking of an American prisoner here, not a Cuban detainee. Of course, as well as the 1,400 detainees in Atlanta, there were about 200 American prisoners serving sentences. It's difficult to say what would happen if this particular individual was involved. There are, of course, many more detainees than there are sentenced prisoners, and we would hope that negotiation would still be the way to end this disturbance. WOODRUFF: Senator Breaux in Louisiana, we heard Mr. Quinlan say that he thinks the leadership situation there has crystallized a little better. How does it look from where you sit? Sen. JOHN BREAUX, (D) Louisiana: Judy, I think it is better in Louisiana. I think they have been able to identify people who are speaking on behalf of most of the detainees who have a good dialogue going, and I think that's why we are optimistic about the situation in Oakdale. I would disagree, however, with the earlier statements to the effect that it could not have been avoided. I think it could have been avoided certainly in Oakdale if two things had been done differently. First, the Cubans should not have been sent to Louisiana to a minimum detention center, which was only for the removal of illegal aliens in this country. And secondly, the State Department announcement of the new agreement with the country of Cuba, I think, was handled in a very, very poor and a very bad manner. WOODRUFF: What about since this broke out? Do you think the federal government -- do you think the prison officials are handling it as best they could, or what? Sen. BREAUX: I do. I think in Louisiana, in particular, the situation that I'm familiar with, that the professionals in the Bureau of Prisons and FBI and their negotiators are doing an excellent job. They have identified people who can speak for the inmates. They are relaying the offer of the Attorney General, which I support, and I think that all of us in the Senate will join in supporting that effort. And I think they're doing a good job now, and that now -- you know, we have a terrorist situation on our hands. We've condemned terrorism in America, and now we have a chance to show how we're going to handle it when it happens in this country. WOODRUFF: Is it your information that the Attorney General's offer is just not acceptable to these -- to the inmates, and that they are truly demanding that they be guaranteed that they won't go back to Cuba? Or what information do you have about what they are asking for? Sen. BREAUX: Judy, I think there's a lot of mistrust. I think that they don't trust our government, they don't trust their former government of Cuba. But I have spoken with Attorney General Ed Meese, and I can assure the prisoners that I think the offer is certainly legitimate, it's one that is certainly a public offer, it's supported certainly by me and others in public office who would work to ensure that it in fact would be carried out. And I think they need that type of assurance in order to continue and complete the negotiations. WOODRUFF: Mr. Leshaw in Atlanta, what do you think needs to happen from your perspective to resolve this? Mr. LESHAW: I think initially there needs to be a leadership group established in Atlanta, as perhaps there's been in Oakdale. That would certainly get things off the ground. As I say, that has been the stopping point up to now. I think that would go a long way. Also to go along with something Senator Breaux said, I think there is a strong feeling among the Cuban detainees that they can't trust anything that the government tells them. They have been in a situation where they've been denied due process for anywhere from seven years to shorter times, and they simply are not believing anything that they are told. I think that a lot of them want tobelieve in the plan. Unfortunately, having been denied due process up to now, the courts having held that they're not entitled to any due process as illegal aliens and that they could be held forever, has really caused problems in allowing them to believe much of what they're told. WOODRUFF: What can you tell us about these detainees, Mr. Leshaw, about the seriousness of the crimes that they were charged with? Mr. LESHAW: They were charged with crimes anywhere from very serious to more moderate offenses. The problem is that there is currently a Cuban review plan that would result in many of the 3800 detainees around the country being released -- some 570, according to the Justice Department -- we were told last week before all of this happened those 570 had already been approved for release. There are others in the pipeline who have been interviewed and whose files are being reviewed, who might be eligible for release as well. The problem occurred that when the State Department announced this agreement, many of those who had behaved themselves and done what they were told, and thought they were on their way out, only needed to be put in halfway houses or returned to their families, saw it all go up in smoke and saw the door slammed in their faces. And as a result, the disturbances occurred. As Senator Breaux said, I think this could have been handled much better. WOODRUFF: Senator Breaux, what is your information about who these inmates are and what they have done? Sen. BREAUX: I think Gary's statement is absolutely correct, that the process was ongoing. The laws of the United States is this simple, in the sense that if a person who is not a citizen of our nation commits a crime, that person is going to be deported. The problem in this situation was that we could not deport them back to their country of Cuba. But it was an ongoing review, and some of them would have been released had it not been for the announcement and the way the State Department handled it, which I think was very unfortunate and uncalled for. And I think directly led to the problems that we are experiencing today. WOODRUFF: Well, Senator Breaux, Mr. Leshaw, stay with us. Robin? MacNEIL: Joining us now is a man who has had a great deal of experience with difficult negotiations. He's Frank Bolz, a former hostage negotiator, former captain of the New York City Police Department's hostage negotiation unit. He's also run training sessions with the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Mr. Bolz, first of all, the difficulty that they're having -- that is, we heard the tape earlier -- now as Judy just brought out with Mr. Leshaw -- many of these Cubans simply don't trust and believe the promises and assurances from the U. S. government. How do you negotiate on behalf of that government if they don't believe you? FRANK BOLZ, former hostage negotiator: Well, you're going to have to make small steps. You're going to have to prove to them small, individual promises that you can fulfill. Eventually, with the use of the media, if you will, working with the authorities, in a sense acting as a neutral referee, making sure that anything the authorities tell the inmates are in fact carried out. So you become the watchdog to ensure that these things are taken care of. MacNEIL: What do you mean by making small steps? You do something to say, ''Here's proof that you can trust the Attorney General,'' and something happens, you mean? Some are released because they were eligible for release, or -- Mr. BOLZ: No, I think the small steps we're talking about are the operational steps on the ongoing negotiations. For example, bringing the media to speak and getting five hostages released. This is a step in the right direction. It's one of the things that goes in the plus column, that they made this arrangement, they made this agreement, and it was carried out. They in turn release the five hostages. And I think you take small steps at a time to come about and prove to the inmates, prove to the hostage holders that you do, and you are credible in this situation. MacNEIL: What do you think, with all your experience, what do you think has to happen now in this situation? Mr. BOLZ: Well, as Senator Breaux indicated, and as Mr. Leshaw indicated, the problem is getting in Atlanta a spokesperson, a coalition of spokespeople for the inmates in that particular -- for the detainees in Atlanta. It appears in Oakdale they have, as the senator indicated, crystallized leadership whom they can actually negotiate with. And this is a key that I think they have to handle in Atlanta. And it's something that has to come from within. All we can do is encourage it, we cannot force leadership. MacNEIL: You can't dictate who their spokesman -- Mr. BOLZ: That's correct. MacNEIL: And how much would it complicate it if this American prisoner, whose name, I believe, is Silverstein, Tom Silverstein, if he is involving himself in the Cuban leadership, how much does that complicate it? Mr. BOLZ: Well, it could complicate it in the sense he's probably what they call a jail house lawyer, a person who's been in the prison system for quite some time and who knows how the system works and probably has a tremendous legal background from the libraries in the prison systems, and perhaps he may try to complicate it in terms of creating barriers, because he has nothing to gain from anything of the things that the Cubans get. MacNEIL: He might not see something for it in himself if he were -- Mr. BOLZ: Well, in a sense he might see leadership in the institution. And this is what he might be looking for. MacNEIL: Tomorrow is Thanksgiving. Could that be a factor in this, working psychologically on the prisoners, or on the people who are negotiating? Mr. BOLZ: I think it's a very, very good possibility, because Thanksgiving being a symbolic date, a time when people do give thanks. Now, even though these are Cubans we're dealing with, they've been living in the United States for six, seven years, and they're familiar with -- or are becoming familiar with -- customs. And I think this is an opportunity for the people in the system, in the prison system, to demonstrate, A) that they have leadership among their own people, among their peers in the prison system, and B) that they're showing a certain amount of not of gratitude, but a certain amount of caring for the people they're holding. They're demonstrating that they care and that the American people should care for them. So it's going to be a give and take kind of thing. I think and I hope that they do use this to demonstrate their power, if you will. MacNEIL: You have experience with the prison system. Should the prison system be handling this now? As we just heard Mr. Quinlan, the head of the prison system, say, this is unique because for the first time ever in a federal prison, the thing that caused the revolt, or rebellion, and the hostage taking was something from outside, not based on the prison condition. So they're not negotiating with people who can improve their conditions, they're negotiating -- should theynot be negotiating with somebody outside the prison system? Mr. BOLZ: Well, actually, they are in a sense. We have in the United States a program called the Lead Agency Concept, which indicates that the FBI would be in charge of any incident which might be deemed a terrorist incident in the United States. And the FBI also is the law enforcement arm for the various other federal agencies. So the FBI and the Bureau of Prisons have negotiators. I've been fortunate to have contributed to some of the trainings for both of those agencies. And they are -- and they have the same basic policy that life is the most important thing. But I think that by demonstrating to the inmates inside that we do have a concern for life. Yet on the other hand, we must have in the background, we must have at that location, tactical support. We must have people who if in the event harm does come to the hostages, the inmates or the detainees must recognize that we could come in with force necessary to -- MacNEIL: So it was psychologically smart to move some army special forces in? Mr. BOLZ: Well, I don't know that that was done for psychological purpose. I think it also might have been done for the purpose of relieving people who may be becoming fatigued. Though we don't want to have our people out there to become fatigued and perhaps make a mistake. And so by bringing in these people -- oh, there may be a psychological benefit, but I don't know that that was the reason that it was done. More fatigue would I think be more appropriate. MacNEIL: Thank you. Judy? WOODRUFF: Mr. Leshaw, you know the attitude of some of these Cuban inmates. What do you think their reaction would be if as Mr. Bolz suggested you had a showing somehow on Thanksgiving of caring, that there's some special gesture made to them tomorrow. Do you think that would make any difference? Mr. LESHAW: I would only be guessing, but it might. It just might make a difference. The problem is will it make a difference to all of them or only some of them? Many of these people have wives and families on the outside. They of course are concerned about their families as well, and that might make a difference. On the other hand, as I said, many of them are concerned that they've not been treated fairly by the United States government. This plan that was put forth by the Attorney General is something that we've been urging for some time, and has not gotten a lot of attention, unfortunately, until it took this to get the attention. Nevertheless, we would hope that on Thanksgiving it could conceivably make a difference. But of course, I'm only guessing in saying so. WOODRUFF: Senator Breaux, are you optimistic at this point, or otherwise? Sen. BREAUX: Judy, I'm optimistic. I think that Thanksgiving Day is important, I think our hostages have been able to communicate that to the inmates, and I think they are aware of the importance of it. I don't think any of them want to die in Louisiana, or go back to Cuba, and I think they'll realize that they have no place else to go, and that negotiation is the only way that this is going to be settled. And now is the time to do it. WOODRUFF: But Senator, is there really any way to satisfy those who have said they absolutely don't want to go back to Cuba, and yet there really is not a way, as I understand it, that the government can guarantee them they won't go back? Sen. BREAUX: Well, Judy, what we have done, though, through the Attorney General is to guarantee that there will be a moratorium. And a moratorium assures that they will not immediately be sent back to Cuba, and their cases will in fact be reviewed and done so expeditiously. And I think how they handle and treat the hostages is going to have a bearing on the final outcome of all of these cases. Certainly if the hostages are harmed, that's going to have a very negative effect. If they're not harmed and are released, I think that could very positive and very hopeful as far as inmates are concerned. WOODRUFF: But again, that may not be enough for some of them, this moratorium. Sen. BREAUX: Well, the question then needs to be asked, ''What else is going to happen?'' Because they really do not have any other alternative with regard to the situation in both facilities. They're completely surrounded. We're willing to negotiate, the Attorney General has made a very generous offer, we pledged they would be carried out. And I think with that show of good faith on the part of our government, it's time that they show some good faith on the part of their side by moving toward releasing some of the hostages. WOODRUFF: Mr. Leshaw, we heard Michael Quinlan, the head of the Federal Bureau of Prisons, say a moment ago that he had infinite patience. We heard -- I heard a report on, I guess it was on CNN today, where one of the inmates was saying they were going to wait forever if they had to. Whose side is time on in this? Mr. LESHAW: Well, I think patience is really going to be a virtue in this case. I think it may be required if things don't happen tomorrow, on Thanksgiving, it may end up that it takes some time to resolve the problem. I think both sides are going to require patience. I certainly know that in Atlanta the negotiators have patience. I think it might also help if the Attorney General sets forth some details in the plan. I know that's what some of the detainees I met with asked about -- not only whether they could believe it would happen, but exactly what the plan entailed. I think that many of them, in fact most of them, will be satisfied if they were assured that they will have fair hearings where they can bring lawyers, bring witnesses, have their families present, know beforehand the evidence against them, just like anyone else is allowed in this country. And if they could have such hearings, and if they could be convinced that they would have such fair hearings, I think that that might be a help to resolving this. WOODRUFF: Senator Breaux, I assume you agree with that. Sen. BREAUX: I do, Judy. And I think also that time really has to be on the side of the government in the case where the prisoners are eventually going to run out of water and run out of food. And they're going to get tired if they can't be replaced. Our negotiators can, and our guards can. But I think they realize that and hopefully that helps us speed up the whole process. WOODRUFF: Well, Senator Breaux, Mr. Leshaw, and also Mr. Bolz, we thank you all for being with us. Robin? MacNEIL: Still to come on the NewsHour, an update on El Salvador and the new famine danger in Ethiopia. War Without End MacNEIL: Since the Central American Peace Plan was signed August 7, almost all of the attention has been paid to Nicaragua and the contras. But events of the last few days have brought another country of the region into the spotlight. Charlayne Hunter Gault has details.

CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Robin, the country is El Salvador, one of the five signatories to the peace plan, a country torn apart by challenges from the right and the left and a devastating civil war that's been going on for more than seven years. Since the accord, talks between the government and leftist guerillas resumed after a two year hiatus, but they broke down when a human rights activist was gunned down in San Salvador by a right wing death squad. No date has been set for a resumption of the dialogue. Both the government and the rebels have made separate offers of cease fires, but nothing substantive has occurred. But in the last few days, two of the top civilian leaders of the guerilla movement have returned to San Salvador to test the political climates, despite threats by right wing death squads. Ending his seven year exile, Guillermo Ungo was greeted by cheering supporters at the airport upon his arrival. Ruben Zamora, who fled El Salvador in 1980, attended mass at the cathedral in San Salvador, the same church where Archbishop Oscar Romero was gunned down while saying mass seven years ago. The investigation into the murder has dragged on, but this week, President Jose Napoleon Duarte announced that his government had uncovered new evidence which conclusively linked Major Roberto D'Aubuisson with the Romero murder. JOSE NAPOLEON DUARTE, President, El Salvador: This is a relief for the people of El Salvador, because now they know what happened and they know who did it, and who ordered it and who drove the car and who did the real (unintelligible).

HUNTER-GAULT: D'Aubuisson, who heads an ultra right political party, denied the accusations, and said Duarte was using him as a screen for his government's failure to end the country's civil war and improve its economic situation. El Salvador has had a long history of political violence, and this week tensions were running very high, despite the Central American Peace Pact. For more on the story, we go now to a reporter who has covered Central America for the past ten years for a variety of publications, including the Atlanta Constitution and the Christian Science Monitor. He is Clifford Krauss, currently Edward R. Murrow fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. Clifford, just how high are the tensions now and how do you see what the elements are that have increased them? CLIFFORD KRAUSS, journalist: Charlayne, tensions are always high in El Salvador. They have been when the story is in the news and when it's out of the news. At the moment there happens to be a confluence of events that brings to the fore tensions that are always around in El Salvador. On the one hand, leaders on the left, who may or may not be working in concert with the guerilla leaders have returned to El Salvador. That, of course, creates tensions on the right, who are opposed to any opening whatsoever. On the other side, you have people in the Christian Democratic Party who seem to want to bring the case against Roberto D'Aubuisson out into the open right now, probably in preparation for the elections early next year. HUNTER-GAULT: That's one of the things -- I mean, what prompted this -- presumably they've known all along from the very beginning, or at least this charge has been there -- what prompted it to be brought out now? Mr. KRAUSS: Well, there are several factors. First of all, I believe that there are certain members within the Christian Democratic Party, including the attorney general, who have this evidence now, and want to press the case along with the Catholic Church. At this point, it's questionable whether President Duarte's behind this effort or not. I notice on the monitor that Julio Rey Prendes, who is sitting on the left and is a member of the cabinet, told me just moments after President Duarte in 1984, when he was running for president, said he was going to prosecute this case and named D'Aubuisson -- this is three years ago. He said in effect, ''Don't be fooled, we're not Alfonsins. Duarte -- HUNTER-GAULT: Referring to -- Mr. KRAUSS: Referring to the President of Argentina, who cracked down on members of the Argentine military who are involved in death squad activities. So at this point, President Duarte and other Christian Democrats, they understand the limitations on their power. And at this point, it's very questionable whether Roberto D'Aubuisson will ever pay for this crime, if indeed he is guilty. HUNTER-GAULT: What do you expect to be the reaction, A) from D'Aubuisson, as well as from the right in general to this? Because already D'Aubuisson has started to name names of people he says were involved in killings -- Mr. KRAUSS: Well, it's unknown just how much influence D'Aubuisson has in the army at this point. There's something of a power sharing going on within the army where officers who are close to D'Aubuisson, including the very powerful commander of the air force, are neutralized in part by more moderate military officers who are closer to the United States, and therefore must support Duarte. HUNTER-GAULT: The rebel leaders charge that the information on D'Aubuisson was brought out as an attempt to detract from their returning to El Salvador. What do you think -- Mr. KRAUSS: Well, that's probably one of the factors, and another is that the Christian Democrats, whose government is corrupt, ineffective in trying to resolve some of the economic problems, and who have failed to bring peace to the country, are under pressure in a legislative election, which will be occurring next spring. HUNTER-GAULT: You think that's a charge that D'Aubuisson made that they brought these charges against him to detract from the war and the economic problems. Mr. KRAUSS: There could be some truth to that. At this point, the timing is such where President Duarte is trying once again to get some momentum. He's been hurting, but he, like President Reagan, has a wonderful sense of timing. He's a man who has an understanding of theatrics and politics. HUNTER-GAULT: Well, one of the rebel leaders was quoted by the New York Times today as saying that the return of these rebels was a dangerous misjudgment, and that the political killing could pick up again. What's your sense of that? I mean, is this likely to unleash a new wave of killings and -- Mr. KRAUSS: Well, I don't think anybody would want to insure the lives of Mr. Ungo or Mr. Zamora. Their lives are at risk at any moment. That is not to say that they will be assassinated today or tomorrow. But the right will always have that alternative. When the time is right to destabilize the government or in retribution to some strike by the left on rightist politicians, the right can always strike these men. HUNTER-GAULT: Duarte's getting it from both the right and the left. I thought it was interesting that the Christian Science Monitor said today that for more than two years the rock solid reality of El Salvador had been the political immunity of the extreme right, and the inactivity of the left. And now he's got -- Duarte's got both to deal with within the country. How strong is he to be able to cope with the challenges that are imposed by both sides? Mr. KRAUSS: No more or less strong that the other power sharers in El Salvador, which include the left. You have the U.S. Embassy, the business community, the oligarchy. You have Duarte's Christian Democrats, you have the left. And within those groups, you even have factions. So -- HUNTER-GAULT: Is there any role the United States could play at this point? Mr. KRAUSS: Well, it seems that the United States has been involved in some of the investigations that led to these charges. The United States only has so much influence in El Salvador. And here again we'll have a test for the Salvadoran judicial system, where the order of the day is usually bribery, death threats, and the use of technicalities by judges who are close to the far right. HUNTER-GAULT: Given all the dynamics that are at work at the moment, what's your prognosis for the possible success of the peace process in El Salvador? Mr. KRAUSS: Well, I would say that the prospects are better than the Kellogg/Briand Treaty in the 1920s, which attempted to outlaw war. I'd say it's very, very difficult to put on paper any kind of agreement that can control the sort of polarizing factors that have been working in Central America for decades, if not centuries. And El Salvador is perhaps the keenest example of a society which is just hopelessly at war with itself. HUNTER-GAULT: And you think that might go on? Mr. KRAUSS: In 1932, 20,000 people were massacred in a matter of weeks in El Salvador, and we've had similar massacres in the last few years, and who can tell? HUNTER-GAULT: Well, Clifford Krauss, thank you very much for sharing your insights with us. Mr. KRAUSS: Thank you. Hounded by Hunger MacNEIL: Next, an update on the spread of drought and hunger and the risk of renewed famine in the East African nation of Ethiopia. Barriers worst hit are the northern provinces, and the food situation has been complicated by politics and civil war. Last month, anti government rebels attacked a food convoy on the way from Mekele to Asmera. And only this week did a food shipment get through to the north. The drought is spreading further south, even to towns south of the capital of Addis Ababa. For an update, we turn to Jay Morris, the Deputy Administrator of the U. S. Agency for International Development and Robert Seiple, President of the Christian relief organization, World Vision. He joins us from Los Angeles. First to you in Washington, Mr. Morris, what was the effect of the rebel attacks on the convoys. Is any food actually getting through to the people who need it? Or are they able to stop it? JAY MORRIS, USAid: Well, fortunately, some food is getting through. Recently some 1400 tons got through. But it's true that the food was disrupted for a time by those earlier attacks, and we were worried that it had a chilling effect, although we're optimistic that that was just a temporary aberration. MacNEIL: As far as the U. S. is concerned now, is the Ethiopian government cooperating this time? Mr. MORRIS: To a limited extent, yes. We're encouraged by the fact that the recent convoys went through on an open road, travel at your own risk policy, which was effective the last time, with no military escorts, which tend to invite attack. We think a return to that policy is the way to ensure that the food will get through, as was the case the last time. But there's still a lot more they could do. For example, the road from the port of Mesawa to the town of Asmera, as you mentioned, is only open six hours a day. We'd like to see it open throughout the daylight period. We'd like to see MacNEIL: You mean they have to guard it to keep it open, you mean? Mr. MORRIS: No, it doesn't have to be so. Not if the rebels will honor their pledge not to attack unescorted food transports. We'd like to see some 200 trucks that the U. N. requested of the Ethiopian government be moved from the south to the north. We'd like to see a food truce pursued if that were at all possible. We'd like to see the 5000 private truckers in that country encouraged by the government to do more in the north. There are a number of things that they could do they're not doing yet. MacNEIL: Okay. Let's turn to Mr. Seible in Los Angeles of the Christian Relief organization. Is it hard to convince people in this country and elsewhere in the West that there is a crisis pending as severe as the last one, when we don't have the kind of pictures of starving masses that we had before? ROBERT SEIBLE, World Vision: I think the story that we have to tell is that those pictures are going to come, and if we don't fill the pipeline now with the kind of foodstuffs needed to avert widespread devastation, we're going to see the pictures. The problems is once we see those pictures, it's going to be too late for millions of people. So -- MacNEIL: When will that -- Mr. SEIBLE: The facts are there now. We know the harvest has failed. We know the rains have stopped. And our problem now is to fill the pipeline from all parts of the world actually. We've got to pull out all the stops to make that happen quickly. MacNEIL: If not enough is done, how long would it be before the kind of pictures we saw in 1985 were seen again? Mr. SEIBLE: Well, I was over there three weeks ago, and I thought at the time that probably we would have three to four months before people began to filter into feeding stations, before people began to show massive starvation. But I'm afraid that may be accelerated. Some of the people that I saw -- first of all, it's not just the famine, it's the fact that they came through a famine and they're vulnerable, they've lost their ox and they lost their cattle, they lost their kids. And so psychologically, they're going to be more disposed to make the trek into the feeding stations sooner. MacNEIL: Let's look at some of the pictures your organization shot over there recently, starting with the situation in a village. What is the story there? Mr. SEIBLE: Well, this is a village south of Addis. This woman in the picture is essentially grinding her last meal. This is a family that lost their oxen, this is a family where the cattle was wiped out. This is a family out of four children, two of them died in the last famine. This particular village lost 30 kids in a week because of bad water. So there's a desperate situation that you see here, and it's a situation that has brought people right to the brink of survival. And these are the ones, people like this all over, this is the south. It's worse than the north. But these people are at risk right away. The Green Famine. Now, these things don't look very green, these stalks, but the Ethiopian people did what we asked them to do. They planted the seeds. We had agpacks over there, and they distributed them, they planted the seeds, the seed came up, and then the rain stopped. And so there's no ear. That's what (unintelligible) an ear of corn. There's no kernel. And so we can tell right now, I mean, the conservative estimates for 1988 are that they're going to need about 1. 2 to 1. 2 million metric tons of food. Now, that's a lot more than the last campaign, last famine. MacNEIL: You also have some footage of efforts to monitor the health of the children as this situation develops. Describe that for us. Mr. SEIBLE: Well, this is all part of child survival, and we do monitor weight and growth, we try to find an early warning system -- MacNEIL: Who is we, Mr. Seible? Mr. SEIBLE: World Vision. World Vision has been in Ethiopia since 1971. We presently have about 80 projects around the country. So we've been there for the long haul. The fact that we keep records of people with weight and height is because we're going to continue to be there for the long haul. And this is the very basic starting point for long term child development, ultimately economic development, agricultural development, holistic development. We are attempting to make Ethiopia where we're working famine resistant. And we've been able to do that. And so I think one of the messages that we need to get out to potential donors is you have to stay there for the long haul. We can't just be there feeding today and walk away tomorrow. Immunizing children, for instance. This child is about to be immunized. And you allow the children to live past the average age of five, you are then obligated, I think, morally, to work with the children whose lives you have extended. MacNEIL: When you say you've made the Ethiopia -- are making it famine resistant. If we're facing another major famine, how is it famine resistant? Mr. SEIBLE: There are parts of Ethiopia today, coming out of the last famine, that will not go through the famine again. The backdrop here in the picture is you see a nursery. We've planned and developed six nurseries in the last couple of years, we have six more on the boards for the future. We are planting a couple of million seedlings a year in rich soil. And there are resources in Ethiopia of soil and water under the ground. We've brought up the water, we've allowed that soil to be naturalized, the seeds have been planted, sixteen different species of trees have been planted, and there is a famine resistant area there in Ansokia Valley, about a hundred miles north of Addis. And those resources are such that we can do that elsewhere. We just have to have more time and buy more time for the people of Ethiopia. MacNEIL: I see. Now we are seeing food being distributed here. Describe that, and how adequate the supply is at present. Mr. SEIBLE: Well, presently that food is being distributed as a food for work project. We are one step away from free food. Obviously if you can maintain the dignity of people by allowing them to work for the food that they're given, they're going to be better off for it. We're trying to keep them on their lands, we're not trying to bring them into feeding stations. We're trying to have them work the land, plant trees, which helps in the climate, which helps hold back the soil. It's again part of the long term development of the people. MacNEIL: Mr. Seible, tell me again the figure that slipped by there a moment ago of what you think is the total need to Ethiopia to prevent a major famine in a few months time. Mr. SEIBLE: Well, I think it's fair to say that conservative figures are 1. 2 million metric tons of food. Put that in context. In the last famine, the largest month was August of 1986, where we shipped and distributed 83,000. So what we're saying for 1988, on average, every month is going to be bigger than anything we had in the last famine. That's why the need is so urgent. MacNEIL: Let's go back to Mr. Morris in Washington. Does AID agree on the figure, the total figure of need? Mr. MORRIS: We're not sure yet. It could be that severe. The world food and agricultural organization is conducting a study which will be done around December 10, and we're anxiously awaiting that. We don't know for sure. We've already contributed 125,000 tons ourselves in just the last two months. MacNEIL: How much has the United States pledged altogether? Mr. MORRIS: A hundred and twenty five thousand tons worth of food, with internal transport cost worth a total of about $44 million since September. In addition with other feeding programs and locust eradication and other things we do, roughly $50 million thus far. MacNEIL: And Mr. Seible, how many other tons have been pledged by other nations? Of the million two you say is needed, how many have been pledged, if you start at 125 million with the U. S. ? Mr. SEIBLE: Well, my understanding is that the European economic community has pledged a portion. But I think it's fair to say that the U. S. has garnered the lion's share, the U. S. A. has obviously taken the lead position in this famine as they have in the last famine. MacNEIL: We have just a few seconds left. Does this now need some huge international conference, such as was called several years ago -- two years ago in the previous situation -- to galvanize a much bigger and wider effort? Is that what's called for in this case? Mr. SEIBLE: I think everybody has to pull out the stops. World Vision can't do it alone, USAID, the U. S. government can't do it alone. We have to marshal the resources, we have to put ideology aside, we've got to pull out the stops now. Again, if we wait for three months, we are going to see massive starvation, and we cannot do that. Knowing the facts, we cannot sit idly by and put compassion on the shelf. MacNEIL: Well, we thank you very much Mr. Seible and Mr. Morris for joining us. Recap WOODRUFF: Once again, the tops stories of this Wednesday. Cuban prisoners seized 25 more hostages today, as prison standoffs and negotiations continued in Atlanta and Oakdale, Louisiana. Chicago mayor Harold Washington, that city's first black chief executive, died of a heart attack. Secretary of State Shultz said that the U. S. would stop deploying Cruise missiles in Western Europe as soon as the intermediate range missile treaty is signed at next month's summit meeting. Good night, Robin. MacNEIL: Good night, Judy. That's our NewsHour tonight. Have a nice Thanksgiving, and we'll see you tomorrow night. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night. t