Biography Hawaiʻi; Ruth Keʻelikolani; Interview with Puakea Nogelmeier 11/18/03 #2

You know, okay, let's go back because I can't, you just tell us when you're on the other side. So we were talking about how a lot I had respect for K. We had commented on that a lot did not choose K. And that deathbed scene is described by several observers. Mostly saying that his response was, no, she would not be up to governing on a national level.

It's obviously no reflection on his appreciation for her intelligence and her ability. They had worked together closely. He was minister of the interior while she was governor of Hawaii. He, their father and K. E. Colony worked closely on maintaining the estates, the royal estates, and consolidating that. So there was certainly a good working relationship there. He may have been speaking to her sort of interactability or her unwillingness to deal smoothly with the west and the different forces that would come to play as a sovereign that were not so apparent in her role as the governor. Should you always say Governess because she has gender? I don't know. She's a governor. She is a government, one who governs. There's not a word. It's certainly a western gendering of a.

Maybe we should go to the classroom that's not here about the Leo Hoku and his adoption. His adoption meant to both the Kamehameha and the Kalakawa's, his adoption by Ruth. When I'm looking at the adoption of Leo Hoku by Ruth, K. E. Colony, she is close friends with his mother, K. Colony. They're at each other's events throughout most of the end of K. Colony's life. So it's no surprise that one of the children is given to K. E. Colony, who is childless, much as she gave her child to Pawahi. But that created a new link and a new level of tie between the Kalakawa family and the Kamehameha. And she fostered him as the heir to the throne. She furnished him an education of very western, very modern education.

She supported all of his socialization into the new world that she herself did not always involve herself in. So she planned for him to be the sovereign eventually. It created an alliance of lineages and solidification for the kingdom. When he passed away, she was crushed and the level of lament that was expressed by the people was all directed to her, rather than to his siblings as well, but she was the main focus as the mother, as a doting mother, as the one who really faced the loss. How do you think, as far as you know, how did Ruth handle this foreign capitalist, bureaucratic world that she had to function in? How did she handle the foreign bureaucratic world was by choice and by figure.

Sometimes she was an active player. She was a businesswoman. The richest woman in the kingdom by the time she had inherited these states of her brothers. And her sister, her half sister, Victoria Kamamaru. So she had massive assets to work with, and she oversaw all of that. Much of what we know today of Elicolini is her business correspondence, whether that was business as the governor of Hawaii, or managing her states with her different agents. So she was an active player in not only the bureaucracy, but the administration and the economy of her states. She and Lot and Kekuano apparently worked very closely to maintain the royal estates, to not let them be diminished. She sold property carefully and at a good price, sometimes mischievously, but she didn't lose funds on it. So she was quite a businesswip, even though she personally did not interact a great deal with the Western businessmen that were, you know, a growing force in the kingdom.

She worked through her agents and maintained a real high profile as a businesswoman. And these mischievous funds, what do you think she's doing with them? Spending them the way she chose to spend them. And there's a lot of commentary within that kind of correspondence about how she chose to spend funds. If she went shopping off times, her companions would join her and she'd end up buying materials for all of her court, her people, and her friends. Now she may have not paid those bills for a long time until she was forced to, but that was a selection of when she chose to distribute her funds. They knew she was good for it. She knew she would pay when she was ready. And the longer you could put it off, the longer those funds could be used for other purposes. It sounds like she had a pretty good understanding of the courts, the way the courts were, too.

Very, and she had some very good lawyers on her payroll. So she managed her affairs pretty carefully. Why do you think, you know, it's interesting to me that Ruth, and I guess as you say, her father and others, in a time when a lot of the LED are land rich, but cash poor, they're selling all their land. But, you know, she seems to be one of the elite who's very smart about not selling land or selling it very significantly. I think she had very good business acumen on when and how to sell property, and that the main goal was not to sell property, not to diminish the estates. She did some major land sales when she built Keo Wahale. She sold large chunks of property just to pay for that. But, you know, those kinds of decisions were made, you know, carefully. She made a major sale to Sam Parker, a number of Hupua properties.

I'm sure that those were carefully picked out as to what was most profitable, what was important. It seems that the guiding business principle was hold on to the mass of property, that property, rather than cash reserves, and certainly rather than the conspicuous consumption, would make for longevity. Well, I wanted to move on to the roof and the lava flow. And, you know, my main question is, I mean, I think we're all agreed that that was an extremely astounding occurrence and event. Even though you say it's not well publicized in the papers, what do you think that meant for everyday Alliance to see one of their aliee do something like that with such an astounding result? What kind of impact would Ely Colony's visit to Pele have had on her people? It's an interesting point that that did not get great newspaper coverage.

Her visit did, it got general acknowledgement and not a great deal. A lot of that would have gone through a word of mouth, that would have been acknowledged in the community. It would have gone from Hilo on. I think it would have just articulated with the general respect that they had for the traditional chiefs. The comments and the news in the Hawaiian language newspapers mentioned her chanting to Pele, her visit, her pieces. It's much after the fact that the detail of that, the purchase of red silk scarves and the offering of, was it whiskey? That was given. That actually doesn't surface in the newspaper accounts of the day. It's her visit, her chanting, her cocoa o'lello, her sharing advice with the goddess that was mentioned. So that actual story would have gone through outside of the newspaper media. It would have been filtered through her community, but definitely would have added to her respect.

What do you think in the late 19th century, when this happened, that for Hawaiians to see one of their LE have this kind of apparently direct connection with the gods, do you think that had an impact on, I mean, it's, you know, those who knew this story as the story filtered through that would have resonated with a, a traditional sense of power, mana. It would have been confusing and it poses a puzzle historically that the newspapers acknowledged her presence. They also acknowledged Lily will Kalani and Pawahi visited shortly afterwards. And they do pose the question in the newspaper at the time. The volcano has stopped. Was it Kaelicolani's visit? Was it the prayer meetings in Hilo? Was it? So the, the public would have ended up having to juggle different bits of information. But that residents of Kaelicolani made her visit. The volcano stopped.

It would have certainly tied into the tradition of the mana of the chiefs because she was of all of her peers, the most traditional, the most grounded in traditional protocols, the most honoring of those traditions of the gods and their powers. What do you think she, she wanted to build Kaelicolani? Her move to build Kaelicolani. It's not certain. It's not documented. But Klaakawa had just returned from his world trip, had established Ilani Palace, which he saw as a hallmark that other nations would recognize the, the national stability of the kingdom with some of the, the trappings of kingdom. One of those was a grand palace. So it's sometimes seen as simply a competition. She won a palace. She built a bigger one. Kaelicolani was actually a little grander than Ilani in its way.

But I think probably it was much the same kind of motion is that there are certain trappings that are recognized as social development, social standing. The fact that she never stayed in Kaelicolani more or less says, you know, she, she got it as one of the trappings, whether it was in competition with Klaakawa, or simply as a sign of, I can and don't. How do you think, I don't know, this is a big speculation, but how do you think every, every day, Hawaiian saw her? How do I feel that every day, Hawaiian saw her? It's difficult to make a generalization. There are Hawaiians who were angry because she'd scolded, she didn't, she'd rebuked, she'd fired, she'd shed a lot of interaction with every day, Hawaiians. But I think as a general rule, she was deeply respected and seen as an anchor in a time of great change. She very much was a slower moving force, a very, a cautious, progressive force.

So she very much maintained a respect for old while she considered the new. Great. And what kind of milestone do you think her death was for the king? Well, at the time of her death, there's her two peers die almost immediately, you know, a year after each other. So that period, her personal death of Kaeli Kuala Ni is certainly seen as the end of that line of the Kamehameha line. Hawaii is the only Marmo left. And her death a year later closes the Kamehameha line in the minds of the genealogists of, you know, the ruling Kamehameha line. There's many other linear descendants. But the loss of those three chiefices, who were definitely leaders in their time, really marked the change for the kingdom, a change. It enforced the Kuala lineage.

It diminished the pool of parallel lineages that would rule. It really marked a sweep away of the traditional chiefs. And, you know, this is something that I just, after rereading some of them, after rereading some of the material, I wonder if you would speculate, you know, what's his name? Kind of how they speculated about this, that, you know, Ruth made out her will in January. She had a birthday party in February and then she got ill and she doesn't die till May. So, do you think it's possible that she conferred with Hawaii about what would become of all that all of the Kamehameha lines when both of them were gone? You know, I mean most, you know, most of everything is attributed to Hawaii giving this. But I, I mean, they were so close.

Well, Hawaii's legacy that becomes the Kamehameha schools is actually Kuala lineage legacy. And how much influence did Kuala lineage have? That's really the question on how Hawaii chose to leave her legacy. And Kuala lineage definitely was the advocate, the support, the foundation for the Hawaiian people. She very much was supportive of her people and their traditions. Hawaii could not have been unaware of that or not a part of that dialogue. They're very, very close. So I'm sure that they shared that concern for the Hawaiian people, for their future. And that Kuala lineage mindset would have shaped or helped to guide Hawaii's decisions on what to do with that legacy. Let's go to Craig's question about Kuala. Do you want to ask a question?

Yeah, but I'll look at her when I answer. Yeah. And what is the significance of Matayo Kikuano as the father of Kaeli Kuala. Kiku is what he's called. And of course, there's an inherited mana and acquired mana. And Kamehaku speaks to the decision to acquire higher position or higher influence. So after the trip to England where Liho Liho dies, he comes back and he asks for one of the ranking wives in Hawaii as his wife. Kinau is his second wife that elevates his position to some extent as the father of kings.

But it's really his role in government. He becomes such a driving force, a statesman throughout the reign of Kamehame III, IV and V. He plays a dynamic role in the establishment of kingdom. And as the father of Kaeli Kuala is a guide for her as well. Well, she's tutored well under the independent prowess of Kahumanu and Kinau. Matayo is a real stabilizing and chiefly force. He lives a long time too. So before we get on to the melee, do you have any other questions? Why don't you ask some of those larger questions about what do you think her legacy is and why has she been important since her dad?

I think Kalena will answer some of those. That's very much modern. What I would want to address. I really believe that Kaeli Kuala Li that we know today is really just a fraction of the woman that her own people and her own peers knew. And partly because she didn't integrate well, consistently with the forces that document the history that we're using today. So that much of her life is documented in different ways that we're not incorporating yet. And it poses a challenge to us today to try and include those other resources and search out the Kaeli Kuala Li that wasn't noted by Western observers, that wasn't documented in the English press, that existed at her time. And in the minds of her people and how can we at least open up some portion of that. And I think it's a challenge for us today. And it's one that's certainly in motion. There's more drive to include that that lesser documented history than there has been for a long time.

Kaeli Kuala Li is really a good symbol of that. So what are some of the sources we think we can look to or people could look to today to fill that picture out. Well, some of the sources that we would need to rely on, the Hawaiian language sources have been seriously underutilized both the Hawaiian language newspapers, which include a vision of her that's different than what appears in much of the English press. But a lot of the correspondence, she was a great writer, writer among her friends to her business agents. There's a lot of correspondence in Hawaiian that needs to be incorporated and included. So those kinds of things and the documentation that occurs in melee. So there will be a body of melee that give an insight to this woman that isn't represented other ways.

Is there anything in those melee that you want to talk about? I didn't really go there as to what's in the melee that might represent her except the amount that's written for her, the number of melee that are written on her behalf. And that she was a composer herself and included a number of melee for other chiefs of her time. Could we go back? Could you just rephrase that? We want to pause there with a sudden rumbling of, yeah. Could you just maybe begin a sentence by saying there's an enormous amount of melee that is written about her? There's a large body of melee to draw on, and some of those are written for her, some of those are composed by her, and those will want to incorporate for the insight and the kinds of images that they put forth. Could you just mention her writing her own kind of call that's supposed to be a lost story?

It's noted that when she was ill the year that she died, she composed her own canico, and we haven't found it yet. It wasn't published. There are a number of canico published on her behalf. Whether one of those is the one she composed or not still hasn't been answered, hasn't been clarified. But the idea of writing your own canico is not really clear whether that is a poetic canico or an obituary. So we're still looking. Anything else you want to tell us? Anything else you want to tell us? I don't know if this is my own observation is that I was really introduced when I first learned of Ruth Keelikolani, it was almost as a tragic historical figure, too large, too unsophisticated to all these things, and the more that I've learned about her, and it's a couple of decades.

Especially reading the text that have been collected in the process of this project, my respect for her has just continued to grow, and she comes across as a three dimensional character of great depth. I think it does. It poses a challenge to continue to change that image that I think was unfortunately projected via a really biased vision. It's that old gender bias. She's not pretty, and you'd have to feel sorry for her. She didn't think she wasn't pretty. I think the issue was a terrible disaster, and that appears to be from the surgery, not from the disease. I mean, they're trying to fix the disease in her sinuses, and apparently the surgery goes awry, but Keelikolani was so well groomed all the time.

It's so well dressed, and Western observers, although they will comment on her size and her unfortunate features, they always comment on them. They careful attention that you paid to her dress, to her hair, all of her attendants usually matched. They're all in lavender, or they're all in gray, or it's not just her attention to herself, which was very careful, but to her whole court. There's a different kind of beauty that was certainly recognized by her people. Oh, probably 25 more things as soon as I walk out the door. I think why didn't you say, you know, fanatic. I could go smoke cigarettes, which always inspires me to do.