Basic Black; 4006; Searching For Sally Hemings: A Conversation with Author Annette Gordon-Reed

You You You A new look at the history behind the story of Thomas Jefferson and

Sally Hemings coming up on basic black According to the New Yorker magazine for a net Gordon read the real scandal wasn't what Jefferson did It was what historians did I'm Kim McLaren, and I'm pleased to welcome to basic black Professor and author a net Gordon read to discuss her new book the Hemings is of Monticello an American family Professor welcome to basic black. Thank you for having me It's really exciting to have you here. This book is so Fascinating and it follows of course your the second your first book, which was published. I think about ten years ago Yeah, 1997 almost anniversary a little bit after okay, which was Which generated so much energy and enthusiasm and controversy about Sally Jeff Sally Hemings and Thomas Jefferson Why did you want to

go back and and go forward revisit that story with this book? What is what how does that take us forward? Well, what I wanted to do was to talk not just about Sally Hemings, but to tell the world or you know Sort of reveal that she had more than in her life than Thomas Jefferson that there was in fact an entire family of people at Monticello and Who had sort of lived there for many years and also contributed to the life of the place So I wanted to put her in context not just one person, but a person who was a Daughter a sister a mother and to try to bring the focus on a slave in slave family in a way that I don't think has been done Quite the same way as I've tried to do it. Yeah, I think that's it's interesting that so that you're this book is as much an Exploration of the family. Oh, absolutely as it is of Sally Hemings. How did her family shape her? It's a fascinating story Well Sally Hemings is some people may know was the daughter of a man named John Wales who was the owner of her mother Elizabeth Hemings and certainly when

Jefferson marries into the Marys Martha Wales who Sally Hemings is half sister a very convoluted Virginia family there They've come to Monticello and they are sort of installed as the house servants the favored servants at Monticello and so her position as the daughter of a slave master and eventually a Mistress of a slave master on our own Shaped her life in the lives of her children. They go free 40 years before most African Americans were freed by the Civil War and Had a different sort of journey through slavery even though they were remained enslaved all of the problems were still there But there were differences in the way. They went through the world Now you mentioned the fact that Sally Hemings was in fact Thomas Jefferson's wife half sister Yes, and I'm not sure this is a new revelation, but it's certainly news to me It's it's what has been the reaction to this I don't think people really understand the weight of that well people people have known it But in most biographies of Jefferson typically

about Jefferson and when they're mentioned say her brother James or her brother Robert They're mentioned as a man servant to Jefferson or Jefferson chef But when you see them as I do I write of them as his wife's half sisters You realize these people that they're going around with are blood relatives to his wife. It changes the nature of what you think about them It's not just a you know a slave. It's somebody who is in family And so that brings up a lot of complicated things about the institution of slavery indeed indeed which this story does in General and one of the issues that it brings up and probably the largest one that people wrestle with is this this notion of love versus Coercion I mean between Sally Hemings and Thomas Jefferson and you spend a great deal of time on that about whether or not She could have loved him did love him and whether or not that makes a difference What's where do you come down on that? Well, I mean I spent time on it because after my first book came out I would go around the country and I don't believe there's any venue where someone did not ask me that question Did they love each other because whatever reason Americans think that's important and I understand why because I think it

Tells them something about Jefferson or they're looking to find out something about Jefferson through that question my view is it you know Anything is possible and certainly Love doesn't change the nature of slavery right in my view is that it really doesn't make it to me It's almost irrelevant. It's you know It's it's something that might have happened between two people But it doesn't change the nature of slavery and I think a lot of times people are concerned by that because Southern slave masters and people who were sort of Apologists for slavery always said oh, you know there was love in that time period as if What difference did that make and I don't think it makes a difference in in the larger picture It certainly would change the nature of Their individual relations with each other but not in the bigger picture of things and doesn't make slavery good or you know Better because of that so it's important to not to let that to not let that become the defining issue And yet it does have some

Impossibly I mean people really do want to know that possibly have some impact on their Relationship in particular for example you write and of course, it's known that she was with him in France And then when he decided when Jefferson decided it was time for him to come home and to bring his daughter's home Sally Hemings came with him and she could not have been forced to do so because slavery was illegal in France Why do you think why did she why would she come back to a place where she would be enslaved? well, she was there with her brother and They were in fact in Paris. They were receiving wages receiving pretty high wages for servants at that time in Paris And I'm using that term to distinguish between slaves Servants in Paris. They were being well paid. I think there are a lot of things she had a family here One of the things that was very more sort of thought of this, but I really had to explore Seriously is the difference between slavery for enslaved women and enslaved men the sort of gender conventions of the day Where women were thought to be I mean women had special responsibilities to family Okay, you know she her mother was here. All right, her

sisters were here and it's very very hard I there's a quote in the book Where a woman says nobody respects a woman who leaves her family and so this real dilemma Who says that a woman named Molly Hornblow is a an enslaved woman talking about whether or not You know the the sort of morality of running away right coming a fugitive. What do you do? Do you run by yourself right and leave your children? Do you leave your mother? Historians know that most of the runaways were male and when women ran they ran with children Exactly very often got caught because they're dragging children behind them right so I think you have to think of her coming back not just in terms of You know Jefferson, but the fact that she has this family. It was a very very closely knit family We can tell that by their naming practices The way they treated one another So that's a part of it as well if the thinking is if you're gonna provide me with a decent life You're gonna free my children and I get to be with my family as opposed to Going ahead with her plan to make a go of it in Paris. It's a bit more and it's sort of more understandable people ask

me that too All the time. Yeah, back when I would have stayed and I would have stayed but it's not easy It's easy to make that decision Decision to think of perhaps not seeing your mother again not seeing your siblings again life I mean enslaved people had to make those choices all the time Do we stay and face this together or do you go off on your own? of course the fear would be that that That even had did she come back that she might not be able to face it together There's no guarantee that if she came back her family could have stayed intact or or was there I mean, do you suggest that Sally had had some measure of control over her own life that perhaps the ordinary Slave who wasn't Thomas Jefferson's mistress well as long as he was alive and that's the rub I mean he was 46 years old and 46 You know that at that time how old was she 16? That's that's so that's a big that's another She would have no control of her life I mean she certainly had I mean the best thing when just since you decided to come back home It was lucky that he lived as long as he did

because if he had died She would be pretty much at the mercy of his daughters who were her aunts, you know her half -aunt so Thinking of what she might Have been thinking in terms of placing her trust in this is that certainly the family connection there May have influenced the way she saw, you know what her possibilities were but no slave had any kind of assurance over what? I mean the death of a master was a catastrophe for enslaved people. That's when people were broken up to pay creditors people were Given to relatives and so forth. So there couldn't be there could be no guarantees about anything, but That was a chance she took and it ended up working out for her, but you don't She had no it was a huge risk But you think of somebody who's 16 if you think of a 16 year old in the 1800s is not a 16 year old today True, there's still a young person right so she may not have Might not have fully understand Person who young people are well I can handle this I'm optimistic

and everything everything will work out and it did but for Her but it didn't have to right. Okay. It's it's wonderful how you were able to to Pull so much information together and some of it of course is what the historians, you know implication and bringing things together About a woman who left no record, right? She never we don't even know if she was literate Do we do we know we don't know we know her brothers were and it would be unusual If her brothers knew how to read and write at a pretty high level And she knew nothing of it, but we don't know we don't have any letters her brothers letters there's one a list of of Cooking utensils and so forth that James Hemmings left her her older brother Robert Hemmings's correspondence with Jefferson is gone We don't know where that is so we really don't know anything about that So it really was a matter of looking at Jefferson's records Family stories about Sally Hemmings and other things that I was able to pull together But Jefferson also never wrote

or spoke publicly of course about this this decades long relationship So you had to kind of fill in the blanks around that so what people were saying about them What his friends were saying about them some of his actions? I mean one of the the historians rely a great deal upon letters and written records of things particularly letters But often people's actions are very very telling In terms of the names of her children are all named for people who were important to him During this research, I sort of figured out you know why he was thinking about those particular people at the time So it things like that that you pull them together and you look at the totality of the circumstances It gives you some look at what these what was going on with these people Okay, and and what other elements are revealed were you able to reveal about the nature of their relationship that had been previously either unrevealed or or Perhaps ignored. mean the we've already talked about the fact that she took the risk and probably extracted

from him some kind of Promise about their future. She did not want to come back according to her son Their son he did she didn't want to come back because in France from France because she could live as a free Woman there she and her brother I believe even before she came there was preparing to stay he hired a tutor to teach him Proper French grammar so that he would you know that would enable him to get a better job Obviously if he knew the language better They could have made a life there But she decided to come back after Jefferson promised her that you will have a good life I will take care of you and I will free your children and all the things that she must have been concerned about that possibility Because obviously slavery in America was transmitted through the mother, right? That was a change from England where in England you were what your father was but when they started The institution of slavery got going here. They switched it right now what your mother they along Virginia Specifically saying that reaching back to the Roman. Yeah

going back to Roman times not not what not English time for very obvious reasons Yeah, and so this is I'm trying to get that this is This this revelation that she that we we suppose she was able to extract this promise from Jefferson was is something new I mean that's historians have not really explored before your book people have said it But we have not we've not talked about it very much And what I really do try to do is to sort of tease out as much about that or ask the reader to think as much about that as Possible because it's a sort of an interactive thing. It's me telling the story But it's also raising questions about about the nature of slavery and what could happen between two people in that situation Okay, all right, and and and is there anything else new about this story that we don't know yet or haven't known yet Well more information about her father John Wales Who was actually I mean sort of he's portrayed in biographies as someone who was trained as a lawyer in England And he was apparently a servant boy who was brought over from England Oh, which makes him not very

different from his children except that he was white, right? And he was able to be raised from being a servant to become a lawyer and a wealthy man and James and Robert and Sally and their siblings could never have done that never do that because they're part African -American and they were born slaves more information about Jefferson's dealings with his with their children I mean it's often thought that he had no connection to these children at all, but He spent a good amount of time with them what he had them Jefferson was Very much very much interested in carpentry and woodworking and he had them apprenticed to his In favor to their uncle who was the head of the carpentry shop at Monticello, and he spent time with them So there's a different look at the nature of how he interacted with all of them And that that's never been written about before as well. Okay. All right, great I'm wondering if you can help us in picture himmings Physically and talk a little bit about what her her physical

Self might what role that might have played in in her life story what she looked like well The only descriptions we have of her is that she was a fair -skinned woman and and a man named Isaac Jefferson he's referred to as Isaac Jefferson, but his real name was Isaac Granger by the way That's another interesting thing in the book We find out that a lot of the names that people were given we find out people's real last names I mean a lot of times people don't think that enslaved people have had names, right? Masters just didn't write them, in fact They did have last name so that's something that's different people who are typically called Isaac and Jupiter and other biographies are Jupiter Evans and Isaac Granger and I try to bring them Bring them their full dignity by giving them their the names that they knew themselves by so I mean Jefferson is is Hemmings what she looks like when Hemmings is look like Hemmings Isaac Granger talks about I refer to him as Jefferson because that was the name that was given to him, but Isaac Granger talks about Sally Hemmings is being fair -skinned with straight hair down her back

Men described her as beautiful. So that's the recurring thing white men and black men But other than that, I don't know how tall she was I don't know anything else But that was the thing that people always mentioned about her is what how good she looked that she was light -skinned and that she was beautiful Yes, that you was an attractive woman and and and so I wonder you you spend some time meditating on the role her African this then might have played on her self -image I mean on the one hand she was very obviously fair -skinned and this is something that I think you suggest Jefferson Struggled with when he's trying to work out how many how far you how how many? White ancestors one has to have and before one becomes white But on the other hand her grandmother right was an unnamed African woman So there was some sense of African this and I'm wondering what you've what you learned about those dual identities for her Well, what I wanted to try to do there is to sort of raise bring to the fore something That's never mentioned or never connected the connections never made

people say that her people know that her Grandmother was African, but the emphasis is always on her European nature and the parts of her that are European And my thinking is that if your mother People are very much influenced by their mother Absolutely, certainly your grandmother You would know things things that are in me or things that my mother taught me that came from my grandmother If your grandmother's an African, I don't believe all of that Disappeared right in two generations or you know that that that didn't happen. So you have a person who is physically Has one appearance, but I wanted to remind people wait a minute There's a cultural heritage here that just did not go away now I don't know the specific African isms that were there, but I I can't believe that In from her grandmother to her there were not things that were not transmitted and that's and I wanted to make sure people emphasize that instead of Talking about how white she was that there's and in the end, you know after she leaves

Monticello and goes to Live in Charlottesville after Jefferson dies they come and ask her During a special census. They were trying to find out how many blacks wanted to go back to Africa This is government census workers common ask her if she wants to go back to Africa Ridiculous concept right right and she says no, but she was seen as an African person just any you know Trace of African ancestry right you people saw you as right as an African You could you could be conceivable that go to go back to Africa where of course one you've never been and certainly In terms of your blood ancestry would have made more sense to send her back to Surrey, England right but no one asked her She wanted to do that. That's great I'm wondering what the reaction to this book has been the reaction to your first book of course was was enormous and somewhat controversial until The DNA evidence came out improved what you had so clearly laid out in as a historical evidence What's been the reaction to this book? Well, it's soon, but I've gotten some very

very good reviews and a great amount of interest I mean Jefferson by himself is a never -ending subject of fascination for people But when you combine that with the story of Hemings and people's interested in and you know in the sort of American ambivalence About interracial sex very interested in it, but at the same time a little bit Discomfited by it So far, I mean the reaction has been very very good a huge amount of interest in it So who who is more discomforted by this? you think is it white Americans? I mean the whole issue of why it took so long and so much Emphasis for for many of his biographers and historians to be convinced of this relationship when the evidence was right there in front of them Is is perhaps suggest some kind of this in this discomfort on the part of white Americans on the other hand There might be some discomfort on the part of black Americans at the idea that she could have voluntarily entered into a relationship with him So who who do you think where's the discomfort greater? It's discomfort for different reasons. I think whites Obviously are

Discomfited by interracial relations because they made them illegal for long periods of time and have always You know sort of preached against it and so forth and even today even though it's not illegal in sort of popular cultural culture interracial relations are played either for jokes or You know the person has jungle fever. It's like they have a sickness or something There's no sense that there could be a sort of genuine Connection between a white person and a black person I think whites are very very discomfited by that by the nature of the idea of interracial sex and then the production of interracial children And it's this notion of white purity keeping the race pure is something that is It's still very much a part in people's thinking You're right blacks are discomfited by not so much It's it's the circumstances is the politics of someone who who is enslaved Trusting somebody who is obviously weakens true as an enemy, right? So it's a political thing versus some sort of Genetic, do you know what I mean? Yes sort of basic

biological understanding of of nature and the way nature should operate So but as if I were to you know to sort of pick I would say that it whites are more discomfited by Interracial mixing them blacks because of course in the way they have described they've sort of defined whiteness, right? They lose right. mean we never because the one drop rule one solid take I mean, know any black person I mean Walter white who was the head of the NAACP in the 40s who if you were to walk in here today You wouldn't think of him as a black person, but he considered himself black and then Mary McLeod Bethune was black, too Right, so we have a whole spectrum of people and in fact many of our leaders Frederick Douglass Malcolm X many many or not Malcolm X directly, but indirectly his family was involved No all blacks I mean right if you go to a black family reunion people are going to be all different colors All that we are black and it's it's more of a political and a sort of a social understanding of who we are where whites It's biology either white or you're not and and why do you think it is that? historians have struggled so much with the dual nature of Jefferson in particular

and and and in more particularly it's interesting that It seems to me that people were more able to To to reconcile the man who wrote those great roads of the Declaration of Independence with someone who owned slaves Then they were able to reconcile that man with someone who would have a relationship with the slaves Well, that's well for one thing Jefferson. There's a famous saying if Jefferson is right America is right if America is wrong If Jefferson is wrong America is wrong So he has been sort of collapsed as the personification of America, right? So if the personification of America has children with somebody who's black He's in some way not white in a sense. I think that that's part of it I've never had a satisfactory answer from anyone as to why it would be worse For him to have children with Sally Hemmings a long -term relationship I'm we're not talking about somebody running through the slave quarters a long -term relationship with a woman who ends up in You know, she leaves Monticello and her children are free as I said 40 years before most people are

freed Why is that the worst thing he ever did when he bought and sold people when he died? 135 people were scattered to the four winds in an auction. mean they're really It is very telling that the sex again, but it's what we said before right is the production of non -white People people that is troubling that he has sort of betrayed He's a traitor to the race right by having created these kids And so it's a really really tough issue for lots of people great, okay? This will be our last question. I'm wondering if this story and what we now know about it changes the way historians Explore slavery and write about the history of slavery in this country. Well, I certainly wanted to I want what I've done to be sort of a Clarion call to write about enslaved people not just as Symbols or as a group or herd of people in a way almost sort of not recognizing their humanity What I really try to do in this book is to say they lived under this

institution But there are individuals who had personalities and who had hopes and who had spirits that were Individual spirits that were blighted by slavery not just a mass of people who were not individuals with no personality so I want to see more studies of Of people of the actual folks with their names their stories And I think that that's a way to make a connection for young people in particular To get them on track thinking about the importance of this issue. Do you see that happening? you see that coming down? Oh, hope so I hope so and I think we're seeing it more more for people to realize that it's It's a human institution and to see the inhumanity of it by focusing in on people on the individual person And that's why you call it an American the subtitle is an American family. It's absolutely great. All right, Professor Gordon Reed I really appreciate you being here. It's been an exhilarating conversation. Thank you for having me For the basic black team. I'm Kim McLaren. Thank you for joining us For questions

or comments, please email us at basic black at wgbh .org For further information and program schedules, please visit wgbh .org slash basic black You You