Public Affairs; Senate Commerce Communications Hearings 4/30-5/1/1969

Boston old 21 34. This is WGBH FM. Maybe nine point seven mega cycles Public Radio in Boston. The correct time in 10 seconds. Ten o'clock. You're. You're.

You're. You're you're. You're. Momentarily we expect to be taking you to Washington for our coverage of the Senate commerce communications subcommittee hearings. The chairman Senator John Pastore e. Please stand by. You're.

In. The center and first transmitter on the air. Additional money will be required to help construct the SEC's transmitter facilities to carry the signal to Western Maryland southern Maryland. And Eastern Shore. I'm sure that I don't have to emphasize the cost of television to any member of this committee in order to meet the staggering cost. Maryland intends to use a balance funding arrangement involving federal state and private funds. And I might add at this point that I think that we are fairly unique

under our law where we have provided that the corporation can receive private funds in addition to state and federal funds how loved it made out. As far there hasn't been too much of a contribution from private sources because we have not yet going on the air we're just ready to go on the air. And so far there's been state and federal money but we are preparing and have prepared to seek private funds under this law and I as I said before I think this law is fairly unique. We are one of the if not the only state that has this provision in our existing law. This year the Maryland General Assembly appropriated funds for the first year of operation. In addition funding provisions to construct additional transmitters to bring public television into every community in Maryland were drawn up. Maryland's law provides for the establishment of an independent commission to own and operate the facilities with authority to receive grants gifts and

donations from all sources to meet additional network expenses. Several states including Maryland have appropriated funds for public broadcasting. Their educational television activities are now jointly represented on the council of state educational telecommunications authority. Most states are working toward a goal to providing farm financial support for public broadcasting. This is the goal that the Carnegie Commission concluded was essential for Public Broadcasting in the United States. But I have to size it the states cannot do it alone. From Maryland. And from many other states beginning similar projects and dependent on continued federal support. It will draw of the federal commitment would in my opinion be detrimental to the total concept of public television. And I might add that I think. We are prepared to build six additional transmitting facilities. We would be in

serious jeopardy. To build those facilities if federal support is withdrawn. I don't think that we could go ahead with that entire project. Certainly the future of the entire program will be seriously endangered during its most critical period. If the provisions of the Public Broadcasting Act are not extended. By this Congress. As we know. Generous citizens and corporations have often been the major contributors to the growth of public television facilities since 1962. The federal government has taken an increasing important role. But I look at the history of the growth of public television reveals that the major problem facing industry has been that of financing. Traditional forms of financial support have except in certain isolated instances been unequal to the task of funding public broadcasting in this public broadcasting is to be a reality

not only for Maryland. But for all estates. It is imperative that Senate bill 12:42 receive the affirmative approval of this committee's. And final passage by the Congress. Mr. Chairman on behalf of all the citizens of Maryland I urge you to act favorably on the pending bill. As I have with me from our. Broadcasting Corporation several of our experts. And also the chairman Mr. Kay have I might add that this is an interesting sidelight I think on public broadcasting in Maryland that Mr. Kay ham chairman of our commission and really responsible for the development that we've had today is also the vice president of Westinghouse Broadcasting System for Baltimore and Washington. You know that there has been complete cooperation between public. And private broadcasting in the state of Maryland. To develop this system. Without that cooperation I

think we'd be further behind than we are now. So I think there is at least in our state a complete. Feeling of cooperation between the public and private broadcasting industry. If there's any question that you'd like to ask of Mr. Gay Hanner these gentlemen would be perf Well first of all let me tell you. Governor how much we appreciate your presence here today in the statement that you've made. This committee has always been sympathetic to the point of view that you have expressed. There's no question in my mind of the noble. Performance of the past and the need for its continuance in the future if this is to survive. We have our problems like you have your problems naturally and but we. Hope to work them out reasonably well enough. So that. We won't allow this great program to falter in any way.

Because any leg of a serious nature could well me mean the death knell of the whole program and its future. And now is the time to prop it up really. Because people like you in your state. Are now devoting time and again money to this project and if you get a discouragement to any point especially now it could be a real disillusionment that could lead eventually to the whole thing going right down the drain. And that would be tragic in my humble opinion. Now I am not prepared to ask any questions of any of these individuals because I know pretty much what the situation is but if they'd like to venture any opinions of their own I'd be very happy to hear from them. Which are in the word. We think that the American Program at the Center for Public broadcasters when it begins to operate here on the new cattle 67 we think it is it can be a real modeler

showcase for the nation. Actually it's going to be color TV. It's organization as the governor pointed out has had. At standing leadership leadership from the television industry itself. I think that the benefit of the public. We're going to be enormous. And I think that the whole operation might well be a model which at least we hope it's going to be a more model which the whole nation could at least derive some assistance from. I was very much Sherry impressed with the description given by the governor. And especially a sincerity in his enthusiasm in the program which I think counts even more. We're going to govern a behind a project in the state. It's pretty well 90 percent done. Especially he's a good governor like Governor man down. Thank you Senator. Does anyone else want to know where you can make any I'm going to ask where we got the vote. Hard hard dedicated at

the feet of the fate of their. Legislature and a great crowd here today. Only before. Your every thought we. Think you want to be in the copy you have infested. I couldn't have. Having come in late and I apologize for that because. Certainly it doesn't to the governor and they were cutting the server and then you'd be here is some of the hearing started but you all know what happens when you get on the telephone and read the evidence with great interest and it's a lot of pleasure to have you with us. Thank you thank you very much John. Next witness is Dr. Frank Stanton president of Columbia Broadcasting System. As Dr. Stanton steps forward. Gov. Martin Mendell the governor of Maryland Dr. Frederick Wright and feel the executive director of the Maryland Center for Public broadcasters and Mr. Herbert

K. and vice president of Westinghouse Broadcasting Company are stepping down. Representation by the senators on the subcommittee this morning is extremely meager The only two senators in attendance for this hearing right now are the chairman of the committee Senator John Story and Senator Norris Cotton of the state of New Hampshire who is a member of the standing subcommittee of the committee and communications of the Commerce Committee. Tax official. Is dead and we're honored to have you here today. And if AB used a simile or a metaphor. You know like the obstetrician that read the first breath of life in the baby it was you know a great contribution to got this whole project off the ground. And we're grateful for. We're honored to have you here today Mr. Chairman. Mr. Cotton. Thank you. Senator pastoring. And thank you too

for inviting me to participate in these hearings. From some of my earlier appearances before dusk subcommittee I feel confident that you're aware where CBS stands on the general subject of public broadcasting. So I will limit my remarks. To a brief statement certainly the shortest I've ever made before you. And of course try to answer any questions you may wish to put to me. CBS firmly believes that public broadcasting serves a constructive and valuable purpose in our society. It is important to the audience. Because it broadens the scope and variety of programming. It is important to broadcasters in the private sector because it stimulates a healthy and desirable competition in the presentation of ideas. On a far broader plane it is important to our country and to our democratic way of life because it encourages pluralism of expression. Adds to our sources of information informational and

educational programming and advances our cultural front tears. For these reasons CBS has consistently and conscientiously supported public broadcasting. We have also strongly endorsed the proposals of the Carnegie Commission on educational television. These proposals comprehensive comprehensive in their vision represent a balanced realistic and practical approach to a noncommercial broadcasting service and they satisfy three essential requirements. Independence from political control or pressured financing that is stable predictable and sufficiently strong to attract talent and resources. And multiple sources of financing programming and administrative control. With specific reference to this hearing although we are not in a position to comment on the amount of the appropriations specified in section 3 of the bill.

We support. Astro forty two in principle. Thank you very very much Dr. Stanton you have a tremendous background and experience in the field of high finance and. Economic questions on a large scale. Have you any suggestions to offer to this committee how we can get better and more public or private but dissipation by the reference to this medium as you have heard and you already know the problem is money whether the federal government puts it up whether the foundations put it out whether private industry interest like yours put it out. I'm wondering if. There isn't some way that we can stimulate this private giving because after all there is a tremendous public interest in this in the Greek public benefit in it. I was wondering if you've ever thought about this.

I thought a lot about it because in my own home community I have tried to help the local channel from time to time and it's campaigns. I think I said on one other occasion before you that I was terribly disappointed in the lack of public support in the way of contributions that Educational Television has received. This has been spotty. There are some communities where the stations have been more successful than others. It seems to me it requires a combination of forces. In the private sector. It requires a participation on the part of community leaders. But how to motivate them. I'm at a loss to suggest. I suppose but that at some point down the line if the educational station did not survive I would be a large hue and cry from the

public to get it back. But sometimes we have to go through the loss of service before we realize how important that service is. How to get that across to the people. I'm not wise enough or expert enough at this time to give you an answer that will raise the kind of money that's required. I do think that the there is a a slightly perhaps I shouldn't even say slightly but I do think that there's an increasing interest on the part of the public in the support of public television. It's taken longer than we hoped. But I think it will be on a nasty ass lending curve. I guess we're all impatient when we have such a wonderful instrument at our disposal. To put it to its fullest use as promptly as possible. I I don't see anything short of government support at this time

to get a get a fully operational one more or less in a sort of a chicken and egg situation. We know all that if the government puts up more money. That will induce or encourage private industry to put up more money and buy the same level of pressure and history put them more money. We know the Congress of the United States would be more rap. And be more amenable to putting up more money and who takes the initiative in who gets this thing going to call it the dilemma. But I think the action of this committee and watching public television in this country as you have. It's a wonderful thing and I think it's the only thing that saved it because we all thought that the communities would get more support from the gun. But the community on the other hand it's the same story every place they have such a tremendous drain on their resources that there is good reason I suppose why community

after community there's not any of these benefits accrue as we have been noticing of late as governor amend that you just said there is a great effort does a patient on the part of the state entity and states are getting into this more and more in depth. Because there's a tremendous reliance upon federal funds it usually is the case. We have all these other very serious problems that affect the society of our nation. But I think too that there's something aesthetic about all this. And there's such a grain job that can be done. I think myself sometimes if anything will ever in your our society it be a breakdown in the morality in the moral fiber of our people and I think there's a great challenge today in the news media and even in broadcasting. To go beyond sometimes the element of profit. In order to meet the responsibility which will be of benefit to our

posterity in the way of gone out of its way like a church does sometimes in. In this in the world they know that. But they try so hard to correct it and try so hard to make an individual who has heard to see the right side of life. And I think that the broadcasting industry can do a great deal of this too. I mean it gets into programming and things of that kind and I think were coming about it. I think little by little. I see a tremendous change both in commercial and even in public television. Moreover. What's good about the nature of man and what you can do to encourage him. To lift up his eyes a little bit towards They have a way they instead of looking downward always. To the. More sordid things of life. And I I I think it's the most dynamic and impressive. Phenomenon of this

century. This idea that you can see and hear at the same time and when not at the end of the road. We're not at the end of the road. It's a whole new investor ahead of us and we have some fine people who are in this business. You and I have had our disagreements are matters and I'd like to say more or less detail and sometimes there's substance but I do want to make the record clear on the point that I think you are. An exemplary American a dedicated person. And the fact that you saw fit through your corporation to put up a million dollars in this venture I think was a tremendous impetus in the beginning. And I would like to see more of more of our private sector are engaged in this sort of thing. And because I think you can do a great deal of good we had a children's performance or show or program here yesterday and it was a

product of a study that had been made that cost about eight billion dollars as I understand from Mrs. Coney if I remember the figure correctly. And it's a tremendous thing where it's a combination of the tone and the tempo of on a commercial. That usually are more attractive to a young student but the program itself. And yet they inject into it a certain element of a nice educational process. And the two combined together that one holds the interest and one elevates the mind of that individual I think was classic. Classic. I think we can do a great deal a great deal. I certainly agree. Any questions or Dr. Stanton. I want joy I'm being you're welcome here again noting your tremendous service. Television and the public television.

Doctor it seems to me that I am gauging the ignorance of many of the much of the public by my own. In your own network. Among the many other commercials and I'm not being sarcastic but among the commercials you'll have your own. I mean advertising programs that are. About to come up. Maybe the station rather than the OWN Network. But there are frequently a part of the network schedule but they're also a part of the local schedule in other words when you run it when the commercials are being run. We see here the night watch. The no commercials on public television. But there's nothing to preclude not being the

doing advertising for themself. Is it not at all and indeed many of them do I a job of advertising for themselves. Well I'm glad to hear that I'm afraid that I'm afraid perhaps that most of my contact with air at least when I'm home in my own state is from. College campus and I don't see that but it seems to me that I didn't realize probably. Until Yesterday What tremendous strides have been made in the matter of our instruction. More. Work in the school and for our. Preschool children than for adults. I didn't realize fully what strides have been made.

I think the programming for and Kaman. At least in some in some spots could be could be improved but. I'm able to see here at least in the from the television from the educational television stations that I listen to it at home. I do get some down here a reminded to the public of what is being done there and I don't think I've ever seen any appeal to the public to. Get behind it. By and by contributions and a little of a journalistic talk about what a few dollars would do. I'm not thoroughly familiar of course with the practice of all of the educational stations or other noncommercial stations. But I am familiar with the practice in a number of

markets and I can assure you that they do a very effective job of asking for. Public support and promoting the things that they have coming up on their schedule. They have used all of the techniques of the commercial broadcaster for that purpose and I think I've done a good job. The disappointment is that more money hasn't come in but the announcements are made and they're made with skill and charm. Well I'm glad to hear that you're referring however to. Rather live metropolitan areas where the where the personnel of the of the station is big enough and skilled enough to do a job well I would suppose that Mr MACEY And some of his colleagues were pretty sure all of the stations the experience of other stations so that they can cross-fertilize their practices in this regard. If a station has a particularly successful campaign using

one technique. I would expect that that would be shared with all the other members of the of the group so that they could take advantage of the experience in other markets. Well some of the mud. Well I accept that but I and I'm I'm not as thoroughly or not as familiar as I should be with perhaps with the practices of all the stations but no one can be. But the. But some of these stations are just beginning to get enough funding to keep their head above water. And when you're trying to scratch to get enough funds to put the next program on you haven't got the the wherewithal to hire the people and to devote the time and energy to these extra values that promote these other teachers. It's just a case of putting first things first and I'm sure some I'M WITH would like to do it but they simply can't afford to do it.

And there's a lot of the way the stations in the most vastly populated sections I would expect that to be the case and those stations are comparable to the sense of the way to put fillers into their programs that sometimes are rather dull dissertations too. While I'm not sure that I would want to characterize them that way but there are some that are less popular than others if you well. I was critical Yes more so than I should have been about my feeling that when I said in the committee here yesterday I said I didn't disappoint and it seems that every time that I turned. On the. Educational Television Station while I was listening to a dissertation and how to detect which ones are really genuine to

farming in India is something that. Lady dress a certain group but didn't seem to me to. Attract a listening public. I know the job we have going 18 hours a day if you will and I know the job that must face the managers of a local independent educational station when he fills when he asked to fill 10 12 hours a day. This is a tremendous job. And sometimes you. Reach for anything to get it on the air simply because you've got to keep something moving on the end of the tube to hold the audience or to try to hold the audience. But these these are the growing up stages on an educational television. Once you get the kind of service that is contemplated by the Carnegie Commission report on the Public Broadcasting Act. You will have materials that won't be Darl and you'll have materials that will hold the interest and. I think satisfy the situation that you're describing and

that none of us should be critical. If that is or is has to be resorted to some by product of vision when the if I understand your statement correctly and I say this facetiously even CBS sometimes reaches the subdivision the best. It's when you look at the record of books when you look at the record of Yardley day to day life. Think you can plead the Fifth. I said there was 56. You know I think I accepted on that basis. I am because I almost had a little while ago myself. You know we don't have all that we don't have a corner on our creativity and it's awfully difficult to come up with something new and bright. And entertaining hour after hour. GEMINI. I just want to state that I. Would like to have understand the words that I said yesterday I think I think they were

unjustified and it. And I'm convinced of that. I think perhaps that I was. I'm the only United States senator that sometimes speaks without thought. Najjar. I am. Just trying to get even. Even with all the pressure that we're under in the chairman of this committee and I well served on appropriations and we know that there were many many directions most most essential directions that we pressed for money and how difficult it is. But. Even the so with the progress of. The progress of public television. Rather critical time that is passing through God. You

say that. Would you be of opinion that we should try to put back the 20 million plays of the 10 million that has been recommended recently. I would certainly recommend that you go to the 20 million dollar figure. Thank you very nothing dad dark Staton is practically out of the basis for this committee. Always good to see him. Believe me I'll get anywhere by this casting improvement in the merits of the programs at this time. Did he have Bob Hope said the other night that he's on so many late late shows that he can see you's have aligned progressive movie scenes and I never seen you say California feels as a positive advantage in his appearing on shows at

all hours of the day or night since part of his constituency definitely night workers and therefore something can be said for even the even the less stimulating type program. I'm delighted to see you. Yes it may be mad that you support the bill. I should like to have inserted in the record to CBS contributions to the TV which are quite imposing and. And very impressive. And that will be placed in the record. I shan't read it again. Jamie I just. Said that you have a witness impairing shot not the next but following that a group of witnesses which includes Mr Fred Rogers as a producer and host of Mr Rogers Neighborhood station in Pittsburgh.

It's mixed very highly regarded program and it's run which people rest in Pennsylvania on is one of the best of the programs they have. I make this statement now because I must leave at least temporarily there's a session of the Judiciary Committee and I needed to make a quorum. People don't flock to that committee with the same enthusiasm may come to that. I've worked at a company juries give my back doesn't have television. You're moving. Yes but it's the same for facetious ma'am what you just say. I merely want to say this along the lines of self-advertising in order to stimulate more and better contributions towards public television. I understand it is conducting an auction in two or three weeks.

I am being invited to participate and I think that with their help of the senator from New Hampshire you and I could make some pretty good auctioneers and Dr We want to thank you for coming. And it is true what was said there are almost a regular communication. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Now we will hear from Mr. Harley and I understand that we can join you Mr. Holly Mr. Gunn Mr. Roger. Again Is that satisfactory filler. Would you like to separate it. I know you know after I finish my testimony would you say please. I say I thought perhaps I present my statement and then bring them up and introduce them into my prison mind in the least to Holly said Yes all right. We'll leave it that way. I have a written statement for the record and I will present an abbreviation of that

statement or that I have the statement instead in the record in Syntagma You may proceed Mr. HOLLY. Thank you Mr. Chairman. I am William Harley president the National Association of educational broadcasters. The professional association which has in its membership the educational institutions and community corporations operating educational radio and television stations and close circuit in the structural sic service systems as well as some 3000 individuals producers teachers writers directors students artists and engineers involved in various phases of educational radio and television. It may be strongly endorses the purpose and intent of this proposed legislation and urges it's an accident. It was about conditions that affect the future development of educational radio and television as instruments of social and educational advancement. And failure to enact this legislation would cause irreparable harm both to the future of

noncommercial broadcasting and to the national interest which the establishment of such a system can so uniquely serve. Federal support for both facilities and for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting is vitally important. But I want this morning to emphasize the facilities provision of that act not because we feel that funding for the corporation is any less important but merely because prior witnesses have addressed themselves to this point. And it's important that equal attention be given to the facilities part of the act. In these hearings. In 1962 the Congress passed the educational television facilities Act which provided matching grants to the States as a means of stimulating development of construction of new educational television stations and as a result of this legislation which extended from 1962 the 1967. Thirty two million dollars of federal funds were expended to match almost two and a half times that amount in local and state generated plans. The result was that in state after

state where it had been previously impossible to generate enough funds locally new educational television stations were activated. A total of 92 new stations came on the air and 69 existing stations got grants to extend their services. Title 1 of the Public Broadcasting Act of 1967. Extended the provisions of the TV facilities Act of 1962. It recommended increased appropriations and included this time support for facilities for educational radio. Now title run authorized a total of thirty eight million dollars over a three year period for federal matching funds to build new educational radio and television stations or improve or expand existing stations. Those were the terms of the authorization. But what has been the record of the appropriations. I have this total of thirty eight million dollars authorized by the Congress a mere 4 million dollars has been

appropriated. And how does that stack up against the reality of need. Already applications have been filed by 34 states for over thirty three million dollars in federal matching funds. Clearly the appropriations for facilities have not kept pace with educational broadcasting stations needs which are called real and urgent. It's been almost two years since any new facilities project has been funded under this legislation. The last Grant was made in July of 1967. And in the meantime communities which had hoped to put on a station States which had planned to develop more complete state networks existing stations which need to modernize their equipment and increase their service capability. All of have their plans brought to a standstill by the lack of federal funds. Now all projections indicate that the need for facilities will continue as news stations planned to come on and improvements in broadcast technology need to be made available to the public. A look at the map that you saw

yesterday Germany indicates vast areas still without the benefit of educational television. Wyoming Montana and Alaska have no stations whatsoever as you see there are vast other white areas in which states have not been able to provide sufficient funds either to put on new stations to extend their state networks or to extend the coverage areas of their existing stations so as to serve all of the people in their states. Those yellow areas indicate vestibule stations places where there are local funds available for matching if federal funds are available so they could go ahead with their plan which we see said that kidnapping is being snatched at. Commercial television. And public television. Runs pretty parallel depending upon. The paucity or the density of the population.

To some extent the population is a factor but there are a number of others that the results have not really say that they're as far back as I can remember. On this question of more channels and lucrative channels whether or not I'd be very high frequency or high frequency that we've always had problems with relation to places like Montana and some of these other state's wide areas but a very small per capita population per square mile. You know I was wondering if it isn't as true about educational television as well. As commercial television. Because much of what you can do and much of your private. Subscriptions or contributions depends entirely upon how many people you have to cater to and how many people patronize that particular

program. I was wondering if there isn't somewhat of a similarity between the two but you say that they're slightly different. Yes if to this extent that. The development of commercial broadcasting obviously relates directly to the amount of audience that they can provide for their advertising messages. But the founders of the legislation including yourself serve the public originally to the facilities our own wisely foresaw that in some areas there would be states that would not be able to on their own generate sufficient funds and so there was a need for federal funds and each state to have equal opportunity to access to these funds. But I don't dispute that at all but I mean I don't think that we've provided enough federal funds that they could independently carry the load. No no I mean any other funds tell you need why does a patient the steak which is harder to get in a state that doesn't have as many people per square mile. And I hunted again of course in states where you don't have as many viewers this is true that supplement of course and I think in those

particular states maybe they want to be a bigger effort on the part of the federal government a bigger effort on the part of the federal government because I think just as important an educated child. Out on a farm. Or in a very sparsely. Area inhabited area. He just as much entitle to the benefits of this public television or some lad that lives in New York City on Providence Rhode Island. And I think that's going to be a new problem too. How are you going to cover this vast area that's not been covered. And what are you going to do to induce it. Well surely one way would be to lie radioactive there but. I would also like to point out sir that in some cases one of the reasons we still have those white spaces are there were stations ready to go on the air and then when the money ran out. July 67 there they were but are now preparing to go forward with their plans. I would like to refer to a study which NATO has made

recently which shows very clearly the needs for educational television station equipment. Almost half of the TV station antennas are significantly lower than their commercial station counterparts. All but a handful of the TV stations are operating below maximum authorized visual power for their frequencies. Over half of all TV TV stations have no call episode of Days and scarcely any TV station can originate live color program. So there is an urgent need for building new stations modernizing the air so that we can have a truly. Nationwide technically capable EDV system that will be available to every man woman and child in the United States. The NABJ is currently conducting a survey of existing proposed TV stations to determine their need for federal matching funds from 1971 through 1973. And though that survey is not yet complete our

projections indicate that the need will be on this order of magnitude at least 48 million the first year 1071 40 the second year and 35 million each year during the three year period begin to catch up the backlog of projects expected still to be existing at the beginning of fiscal 71 and to fund new projects which will be proposed. Now what about radio which we haven't talked about right much in these hearings and yet it's very important. Just as the TV facilities Act gave thrust to the activation of new television stations we can expect title one of the Public Broadcasting Act to provide an impetus for additional public radio stations. Currently the whole rural population is badly under served by public or noncommercial radio. The map of educational radio stations shows them concentrated in and around the metropolitan complexes along the east and west coast and around the Great Lakes. But the great

plains of the southwest and the broad belt of the South are almost totally without noncommercial radio service and there are virtually no stations in the West except on the far west coast. Or white spaces of that educational radio map. Which exceed anything those in the TV map. Compared with television educational radio of course is a low cost medium both to establish an operate. But in its unique ways radio can be extremely effective federal funding of the facilities programme will generate local dollars for radio at the community level just as a response develop for Educational Television. So federal funds are necessary for new radio stations to serve areas of the country not now served and for existing radio stations for the purchase of new equipment. The amounts required are modest. And while there is no precise formula sort of a rule of thumb is that most radio stations can operate effectively and efficiently on one tenth the budget required for television. But the point is that even with that formula applied

the 4 million dollars allocated title 1969 in the 15 million authorized for 1970 will not meet the needs of educational radio station expansion and construction. Those needs will increase. We recognise Of course the facilities which this legislation will make possible provide only the technology to be truly effective these facilities must be employed for distributing high quality programmes. The cooperation now underway with lesser fines than originally intended. Has a potential value in the programming area that is now being manifest and it must be provided funds to enable it to continue while plans are being developed for its long term financing grants which the corporation have made to date have been highly beneficial. And he finds them fairly consistent with the major national goals for Public Broadcasting. These grants surely will provide a substantial benefit in developing programme for public purposes but they're just a start. The need for funds for programming are very great indeed and as an example

in recent in the recent grant program of the Ford Foundation for Public TV stations it was able to award 33 grams out of a total of 230 proposals. But those proposals represent a program funding requests of over fifty three million dollars. And it's to this satisfy it and satisfied potential of noncommercial programming this pent up demand for programming help the corporation adequately funded is eager to address its efforts but it must have federal support to do so. We surely concur with those who have testified here for the need for full funding for the corporation and we urge the Congress authorize the 20 million as provided in the bill for funding the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Now having said that sir. I should like to say that anybody is fully aware that in these times any program to be funded by the federal government must be one of great significance and manifest benefit to the nation.

We believe the Public Broadcasting Act is such a program because of what it can enable educational broadcasters to do in helping them attack urgent problems of our society. With improved and extended facilities and with help from the corporation educational radio and television broadcasters can employ their facilities as genuine social instruments in the nation's service. What are some of these things which are based on the record of performance so far. A last great what could be done even more effectively with proper support. Or to put it another way Mr. Chairman. What are some of the things we could do which we will not be able to do. If we do not get. Adequate funding for programs and facilities needed for their distribution many of the problems of our society are due to the inability of large numbers of our people particularly the urban and rural poor. To share in the broad cultural and educational

spectrum of American life. Educational broadcasters can reach out to the people and produce the means for effecting communication with them among them and by them in a way no one else can. Educational broadcasting can improve communications between ghetto inhabitants and the white power structure extend Community Services in such areas as health welfare public order and recreation and improve education job training and job information. Educational broadcasting can give a voice to minority groups. For example. The WB you-I radio program in Boston with a 90 minute nightly program using three black disc jockeys to give residents of Roxbury a real voice. Kaylan are NDB at the San Antonio providing remote pickups for Spanish Americans done in the barrios by Barrios citizens explaining their hopes and ideas and their demands. The Wisconsin State Radio Network saturated week of programs on the plight of Milwaukee's inner city poor allowing them to reflect their condition in such a compelling way that it helped

pass the first housing ordinance for that city. Educational broadcasting can provide programs to improve social conditions in the ghetto. For example in Denver our kind of world is a series of soap operas about the poor and for the poor. Utilizing a Negro family in a Spanish American family providing information on health welfare housing and basic social concepts. Educational broadcasting is also effective in helping job seekers to find employment. Here in Washington the station WEAA is an example of the effective use of TV as a link to that black community in helping the unemployed and the under-employed job information information about training and education opportunities are supplied and job seekers are given the opportunity to advertise their skills. Another important general service is in helping to involve all of our citizens in the democratic process. Bringing into the home meetings not generally televised when major public decisions are hammered out when people express their hopes and protests

and enthusiasms. And the meetings of school boards or broadcasters PTA groups of county boards and the like. K u h t broadcast regulator the Houston school board one of the most popular programs viewed in that area. More involvement comes through such things as broadcasts of state and congressional committee hearings and we know of the broadcasts of the various and Senate congressional hearings and broadcast of the urban crisis and any teeth pick up of the violence hearings and so on. There are also broadcasts of state legislatures as done for example by the Nebraska eat TV network programs which provide an opportunity for legislators to report to the citizens. South Carolina get that TV network is doing that currently. Many of the educational radio and television stations afford. Free time to kind of dates for state and federal political office and the Wisconsin radio network. Is a pioneer example of that kind of service. All the stations

devote considerable time to public affairs programs debates panels and forums on public issues. Another service is assisting governmental agencies by broadcasting programs and series which advance the activities of federal state and local agencies. Programs for example in basic hygiene literacy training vocational school skills. Filmmaking and the like. And finally. Educational broadcasting must continue to improve and expand its service to schools. Schools are falling further and further behind in the task of providing out of education and additional appropriations for a pupil to the traditional school cannot alone raise educational productivity. Educational Television and Radio provide unique methods for organizing for innovation and change in the schools properly integrated into the system. They can help to improve the quality of instruction enrich the curriculum and extend the benefits of such schooling to millions of children who would otherwise be deprived of opportunities that should be open to them.

At present the existing educational TV stations are devoting nearly half of their schedules to programs for schools and some 7 million children are benefiting from these services during the school year. Educational radio is also being used to some extent for in-school instruction. And it was Gunson. Which is the only place where we have a statewide radio network. Or about bars and schools are taking the radio lessons. But these stations need the Saudis dollars to continue school services in areas where they are and use it to build new broadcast facilities or increase the coverage of existing transmitters in order to reach areas where no such service is available. And in some ways providing a means for making compensatory education available for the preschool culturally deprived child may be the most important contribution educational broadcasting can make to the nation's welfare I associate myself with all of the testimony that was made yesterday about the tremendous importance of serving the preschool audience through broadcasting.

Summary educational radio and television are capable both of making possible new and innovative approaches as well as strengthening and extending existing local state and federal programs designed to alter the whole range of conditions which so urgently need national attention. Best educational radio and television should not be seen as competing with other important needs in the man's but rather as a means by which other social educational and cultural efforts can be carried forward. They provide a means through which the resources the community of the nation can be brought to bear on these problems in such a way as to produce a high yield effective outcome from the investment of effort and fun. And it is because a well-equipped widespread adequately finance system of educational broadcasting can contribute so significantly to the well-being of our nation that the NEA be urges the committee to act favorably upon this legislation. Mr Chairman is by no means just the educational broadcasters that have these feelings.

I have just received permission to release the names of 10 very prominent citizens all of whom have longstanding interest in educational broadcasting who recently sent a telegram to President Nixon urging full funding for the Public Broadcasting Act and its continued support. Was it after they had counted and 10 million of them all. Would you know it was before before I believe. But I forgot to send a second one here but that list is appended to your statement. If I may I would like to call up three of my colleagues and then before you do let me ask you this question Mr. HOLLY. How well. How broad is your association abroad. Yes I mean. It. Was. Quite a popular thing among educational broadcasters as well. I presume I'm trying to get at is this and I think going to be more

specific. Is there a good liaison. Among. The educational broadcasters so that you get an interchange of ideas expression on the common problems and the bases for reaching some solution to these problems that's what I mean by that. Yes I mean is this quite widespread. Oh indeed it is. Our organization includes virtually all of the educational radio legal AND I AM stations and they elect a board of directors. And these people are responsive to the interests and concerns of their constituency. But we have a national convention which we share our opinions and exchange views and we have frequent regional meetings where others give an opportunity for this kind of communication. And of course there's a great deal of interchange of written information going back and forth. We provide memoranda almost a bi weekly basis to the stations on current activities in this area. We get a good deal of feedback from them in terms of

letters. I would say there is excellent communication. Well I'm very happy to hear that they're very happy to hear that because I think it's quite important to know these problems as they have thanked each part of the country but yet. Having a broad spectrum of having a national pattern. Because I think that's quite necessary. All right Mr. William Harley the president of the National Association of educational broadcasters is testifying before this communications subcommittee of the U.S. Senate Committee on Commerce. We'll continue live coverage after this brief pause for station identification. This is the eastern educational radio network WGBH FM radio 9.7 mega cycles Public Radio in Boston. White or so the facilities of the Eastern educational radio network you're listening to Live coverage of the Subcommittee on communications hearings for budget appropriations for fiscal 1970 for the

Corporation for Public broadcasters state. We're going to have only the president of the National Association of vegetal educational broadcasters has just introduced Hartford gun manager station WGBH in Boston. Listening to it for some time now not only during this hearing but previous hearings. And rather than take up a lot of time reading a lot of mistakes and things of that kind we should belong in the wreckage right. Now. I think that we understand is the situation here well enough. And we know that you are expert enough to give us a raise you may have the important. Point and conceding points did you'd like to make rather than getting into any red tissue no redundancy by now. I think that will help everyone because we have a large list of witnesses here and I won't one I should want to keep them any longer it is necessary and I would like to submit. A record for a state goes in the record and then just highlight the major point and complete the report to me. We should hear it today. That's right. Attached to my statement is a fact sheet about educational television and our most recent survey of

financial characteristics of the stations. I think these documents contain much pertinent information. For example a typical TV station now broadcasts about 56 hours a week with an average annual operating budget of three hundred twenty thousand dollars. In fiscal 67 about half of the station's total capital and operating support came from state and local government. About 30 percent of the support came from private philanthropy. Ten percent from other sources and another 10 percent from federal funds. Although we suspect that that's now been reduced as a result of the lack of appropriations for new facilities under the Public Broadcasting Act. The ETF broad of directors is elected by the nation's one hundred eighty public television stations to represent them in matters of national concern. We've considered s 1 2 4 2 very carefully and I'm here today on behalf of those stations to testify to our unqualified support for the legislation before you.

We believe that an extension of the educational broadcasting facilities programme and renewed support for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting are both essential for the continued progress of America's system of educational and public broadcasting. Section 2 of the bill before you would extend a program for federal matching grants for facilities that was begun as you know under the pioneering educational television facilities act of 62. In my prepared statement describes in some detail the success of that program and I submit that it is a very impressive record. But I believe the most significant statistic of all is that for every single federal dollars that has been spent on the TV facilities the states in the community have spent more than two dollars of their own. Through their own efforts public and private agencies and cities and states from Maine to write that raise more than 75 million dollars by the end of fiscal 67 to build and equip the station. And they have raised more than 200 million dollars in that period operate those stations.

They've made that commitment willingly and enthusiastically because they have seen how educational television can serve their communities. The federal assistance then has had a multiplier effect. It has generated state and local commitment and service to the public far out of proportion to the amount of federal support that the Harley has already outlined for you some of the specific needs for which continuation of that program is so urgently required. I can only emphasize his central point that a balanced program of facilities and program funds is essential. One without the other is meaningless. Our cities and states are aware of the need and they've made their commitment. They've pledged in excess of 15 million dollars in local funds for new facilities projects they're ready to proceed. And in some cases they've been ready for over two years but they're unable to go forward without the federal assistance. Facilities alone however are not the answer when we serve after all through our program. And my prepared statement discusses at greater

length the kind of programming that we have managed to do despite our limited resources. When I came to the cattle today with the daughters of channel till does come into Providence. Thank you. And I'm glad you're a bitch a little use of the medium for Dan. I think you do a magnificent job. No question in my mind you're doing a magnificent job. I enjoyed very very much and I think your programming is excellent. Kind of people that you bring to discuss some of the issues of the day all of high caliber. And let me ask you this question How much of a viewing audience do you have. Channel 2 about a quarter to a third of the population watch on a regular basis every week and over a period of a month we reach about two thirds of the total population. Well now can you see it in the figures. Yes I brought some figures with me specifically of our audience. I can put my finger on them

for one hundred and eighty four thousand different households. Tune in at least once a week for WGBH programming. The indications are that this audience is using the programs at an increasingly greater rate that is. They are tuning in not only to one program but to a number of programs and the indications are from programs such as Mr. Rogers you're meeting a few moments that this is on a steady increase. Would you attribute much of the popularity of channel 2 to the fact that it is a very high frequency channel. Yes that certainly has been enormously helpful. The fact that we have been in operation now for 14 years is important to bear in mind and that we have the support of all the major institutions in the Boston area I think all of these things have contributed to building a stable base. And from that a substantial I would hope that sometime during the hearing I don't know who's going to do this but all that are in this room could consider it

because with the example could consider it may be developed as I would like to know if it is possible. What the problems are of the UHF educational station in a VHS area. Whether or not these problems are even more accurately did you say you are at a distinct disadvantage. Absolutely because you are a very high frequency station in a very high frequency area. Then of course you meet other places in the country where you have very high frequency and then no true station high frequency station comes in and education I'm wondering whether or not they have a doubly hard job of attracting the knowledge they have indeed I think that's one of the reasons why I'd like to hear that rebel if so what are you doing is hearing that someone will venture it. I think we we could develop that great I don't know well and if you were you'd have been inserted in the record because I think that this committee is very much interested in the U.S. we've been trying to develop this UHF of course and it's had problems.

Well I think the all channel bill as been one of the man I don't know that you shouldn't if that's your running mate kept pulling. Now whether or not Ted has knobs a problem I question that I don't know that it has solved the problem but it is certainly on its way to assisting those stations that have come on over many of them play I think this all comes down to developing good program which even with the disadvantage of being a champion of the HFA area people are attracted only because of the quality of the program itself. That's that's correct and I think one of the notable things that the Corporation for Public Broadcasting is trying to do is to develop ways to inform people about the existence of those programs. That is if you're on the UHF band in many cities you're not likely to have an audience to Macross your station and see what you have to offer them. You have to do it with newspaper advertising we did we do a fair amount of newspaper advertising but we're very fortunate because of the VHF band now on an educational UHF station is under tremendous handicap because they're not in the

readily trafficked area of the dial. And so the corporations after developing as I understand it they have a special can. In fact he was working on this very problem. How do you call attention to the many good programs many find programs that are better on public while they are taking place specially urgent needs your radio take the educational stations in the road out of the cost care on UHF. Exactly and I wager that I think most of the people living in Rhode Island tune in on channel 2 rather than go to the UHF. And I'm not saying that that is good or bad for you it is good deal but on the other hand I think that these local stations ought to be encouraged because naturally why you are interested in regional problems you are interested in national problems you're also interested in local problem. That's right on a local problem may not be the providences local truck right and the question is how do we track the province audience to look at the province station under the circumstances. I'd like to see that develop the best possible programming through that

support coupled with. Public notice of the availability of those program Well there again needs money. Yes because a lot of money to advertise in the newspaper was German as you know over two thirds of our TV reading stations are in the UHF area about that and so it's very important that we'll be happy to develop a state. I would hope that you could develop that of course if you are a you're a champ and you really can't hear it have no problem. That's right. Well if you happen to be UHF and VHF area I think you get serious problem and that's what I was wondering I say she can develop here something to that right. I don't think the answer is going to be very simple. Like somebody has to begin to think about. Tell me what I'm going to think about that as I indicated in this survey we've taken the noncommercial station is at a greater disadvantage of the commercial UHF because in so many cases they have sub quality antennas so they don't have sufficient power and the UHF as you know

snipers in that comparison. If it doesn't have almost more power than the VHF why the quality of signal is very bad. So we'll be happy to develop that kind of a statement for the record sir. I happen to be a disadvantage and I can enjoy jamming through jamming because I live in an area in northern New Hampshire among the mountains and quite an extensive area where we can't get anything except a cable and it was some time before we were getting any public television in fact Shockley after this committee took its first action I began to talk to the. Cable TV people from time to time. I won't use word lobby but it's cost me and other members of the committee some of the problem.

And I think perhaps that may have had contributed slightly to the fact that we now will get. University of New Hampshire and they only have the only Up program ever rebroadcast by the station there. Which is. I wonder how. How much there is rebroadcast by the by the way. Do you have any idea. I don't know anything. I don't know the exact number of hours the station in Durham is part of the regional network known as the Eastern Educational Network which as a matter fact. Was born of Durham and Boston coming together to their established the first interstate regional network so that my I would say that probably 10 hours a week are exchanged back and forth between Durham and the Boston stations.

Well do you think I should have asked as to some of the previous witnesses perhaps. Is there any organized or concerted attempt to raise it as a matter of policy. Educational TV people taking steps to try to encourage or stimulate CATV people to. Include the public. Public television to a great extent over over what they rebroadcast. Yes and each station is working on this in their individual area and the National Association of educational broadcasters has a regular and continuing liaison with the cable television people and for the most part I think they've been extremely generous and helpful. There are some areas where where there have been difficulties. Bill this is something you might.

Yes I was going to say that we. Filed a. Statement with the FCC in which among other things we advocate that if there is a CATV system in an area that it must carry educational. Channels. That it would be required to carry the educational channel in addition to other services. So we're interested in utilizing CATV to extend the benefits of our station coverage and in many cases has been extremely helpful to us. Well that means they must carry one on. One public coverage. And I think all of our group carry one and. I think that the people of New Hampshire do an excellent job and are trying very hard. And improving all the time.

Their programming and their service but they carry the one we don't get. It means that we don't get to build our lives better staffed more adequately staffed. Facilities such as such as Channel 2 and I don't expect we can think we only have I think 5 4 5 channels that where I live and throughout all the other part of my state I can get on the ATV and in fact one of those is WBEZ which for some reason Rather comes in very poorly. I have been unable to understand why. What causes that. But the result is that one result is I can't lose in the ballgame. And but the result is that we can get there I'm very very

well and here and we get such a portion of your broadcasting is coming but I think that in the general survey of this thing and that's one reason that after working behind in the committee in the interest of the original bill that we passed it took so long for him back here to get to me to this member that it was because of that there's five children and I think there must be throughout the country many areas with the same problem. Yes. This is just one more. If they have the names of it down or. Can they use as much are as little of your programs as they see fit. Yes but within a certain limitation that is quite often we are able to

aquire programs because of our of our greater budget. For which we do not have rights to make that program available to others. And here again we come back to this financial question and my understanding is that the Corporation for Public Broadcasting hopes in its activities to stimulate this sort of exchange that is to make available what only a few stations have to as stations and this is this would be an enormously valuable undertaking so there are certain programs that we cannot make available to them because of the additional fees that are necessary which go beyond our ability he said. The programs that you have acquired from commercial are not necessarily in some cases in some cases there are just restrictions that is we have where using a copyrighted play or we're using some major performer maybe a program we're producing locally and the performer says rightly so if you're going to take my work and distribute it beyond

the environs of Massachusetts then I should be appropriately compensated. And we have a concrete example I have a letter from Mr. Knight the manager of the New Hampshire station saying that he would like very much to carry the concerts the Boston Symphony Orchestra which we originate for our audience in the Boston area once a month from Symphony Hall. I cannot make those programs available to him because simply not because I'm not willing to give to him. Or I would ask him to pay any fee. Certainly more than welcome as he knows to have those programs except the Boston Symphony Orchestra musicians say that this puts it in the category of a national program is no longer a local program you're now beginning to distribute it beyond your own station. And Mr. Knight and and his extremely limited program budget cannot afford major series of programs that originate live in Boston. And if I'm not mistaken the bill before this Congress now that would be

no I wouldn't say that I mean that the solution to this problem is of course. Mr. Massey would undertake the program if we thought it had a national ID that you say and then he would provide the money for your people to see it and that's the reason why you were asking for the 20 million dollars to do precisely this. You see the competition itself will have to pick up the program for national distribution and then make shit then do to change and end a connection that is necessary and provide the money so that you can pay the Boston Symphony on a national level. And then they'll be satisfied they don't care to whom you show it. Provided you pay them and that's the problem is the copyright thing. Of course that's always restricted to St. Louis. I don't know whether they want to make it any tougher than and it can make it any tougher than it already is pretty tough the way it is now. Well my impression from. Syrian TV people interview me.

So firstly my opposition who may propose measures that would make them compel them to pay for programs that they are now using pretty well. Well now that's another issue and another issue takes the picture out of the air and then they distribute it for pay and the artists are saying you can do this this is our personal property and you cannot take it and use it as you wish. And they're expecting to be paid for it. That's we a country of this now that are a fact I think two of the committees are already investigating then I think is going to end up in the Supreme Court anyway. The big question here is can an individual take out of the ether of the air. A song that's copyrighted and use it as he wishes for pig. The artist say you cannot do it. I'm entitled to be paid for. She says it's in the public domain it belongs to everybody and I can take

it in usually as I wish. And it's anybody's guess what the answer is. When the attitude of the Congress really here more favorable to the artists. If they were if they adopted a more liberal have thought about the use of of their productions public all that's right but the Congress itself is split right down the middle. The states that have got us look at it one way. You're stupid have to see it the other way. I wouldn't split right down. It's a hard issue I'll tell you that is very hot. As a matter of fact it's already been for two or three committees already. We have to before this committee is before the cellar committee is before the Senate Judiciary Committee. It's a hard question.

I really I only I just want to say the way Chairman that I don't want his remarks to rain a challenge to suggest that we have any ideas. No but you know what. The artist of the Lord took this this great association and you have a Stein said one time what do you call it Af-Pak. Would it be as good as a casket. Let ask Jack and he said in very emphatic terms there is no democracy and ask gap there is no democracy in asking. He made that statement before a congressional committee one time. And I'm not finding any fault with it because after all a genius produces something and it isn't a one shot thing. He has an interest in it he has a proprietary right and our courts have held that. And in many many cases even if you play a record in in a cafeteria you have to pay for the privilege of playing for the performance. And there you are and these are very delicate questions and there are two

sides to them but I quite agree with the senator from New Hampshire if we could only find some way of liberalizing this and him breaking his cornea not because I think myself that. We've reached a point here that here we are using to eat our way using the public domain and it belongs to everybody belongs to everybody. We like to use it for the public good is broadly as we possibly can. We're going to take all these little problems that restricted and you can find it in and circumscribe it and kind of loosen it up a little bit. But it's a difficult job and I know that the problem that my colleague from New Hampshire is having with it and I know I've been disturbed with it for a long long time is let's hope maybe we can work something out. If if this proposed legislation should pass.

It's not just CATV paying a penalty. It's a very alive site segment of our population all named education who need new enlightenment who need inspiration and I am a. Good. Again today on that here this morning that's where I live and they're deprived of this and of course the question using for pay why I pay $5 a month for use a CATV and I certainly don't have sex in the CATV people get rich rendering the service for that for the money but we're getting off the subject but I wanted to raise that point because I regret that I came here Carol to which I could hear more.

We wish you could also get the hiers dancer in the world to roll guy and let you know that. It is here but I wonder if I might I'd like to make a few points about programming and then introduce Fred Rogers who's standing I would hope to let you know when now it is 11:30 and it's just Mr. Cotton myself I repeat that again and we do read this record very carefully very very carefully and I would hope that you would you would dare syncopate. OK you see some of your statements because you'll read the whole ranking and you give this to state in point. The chairman Senator Cotton. It be presumptuous of me to talk about programming for I had 180 stations in what they're doing locally. But I might give you just two examples from our own experience in Boston that I think highlight a point that I'd like to make before turning to Mr. Rogers. And I think this point is the very special kind of service that public television stations

and only public television stations can make in their communities. The first example would be in the field of special training that these stations can perform for their communities. In our case the one I'd like to have you know is the law enforcement and criminal justice program which goes out over 9000 educational stations in New-England District of Columbia Pittsburgh and upstate New York. This serves 500 federal state and local law enforcement agencies that represent a total of twenty five thousand law enforcement officers. Chief purpose of this program is to give these men the opportunity to continue their professional training while actually on service. This type of select programming is just one of many educational public stations are doing across the country. Some examples include programming for functional illiterates for school dropouts who are earning their high school equivalency certificates practicing

physicians who are continuing post-graduate training. Dentists who are improving their on their techniques the staff of nursing homes that are upgraded through television presentations. Teachers who are sharpening their skills by means of television. And this is not even to mention the direct teaching of young students and millions of schoolchildren. Some 500000 within the range of our transmitter alone would take some part of their regular schooling by television but important as these specialized services are however there is the area that in the long run may be the most important service that we can perform. And that's the service for the general public to help them to understand the critical issues in their hometowns. There's been a good deal of such programming and public television over the years but I think it's fair to say that only in the past year or two as television been a direct force for understanding in the community. Our own station has been trying to perform this sort of service for 14 years or more. But it's only fairly recently as our skills our resources and our staff of grown

we can honestly say that our programming has had a real impact on understanding in our community. And we've done a number of things we've provided. Hours of prime evening time to each of the candidates for the mayor's office in Boston with covered in their entirety hearings of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights and Roxbury. We've discussed the drug problem using a notable debate from MIT. We broadcast the complete hearings of the city council and the recommendations of the Kerner Commission and so forth. I'd like to dwell for just a moment on a recent example of the sort of service by our station and a comment which the Christian Science Monitor's made on that service. And this is the fact that on three successive nights two weeks ago during the crisis at Harvard University we devoted a total of more than seven hours of prime evening time to special programming that we hope would help our viewers as well as student faculty members to understand what surely one of the most pressing and urgent problems of our times student unrest and concern. Our first programme eight eight eight to nine

thirty was 90 minutes in length the next evening ran from 7:30 to well past midnight. In the Third Programme was a 45 minute wrap up of the events of the day on which the strike was suspended. In the course of this coverage every shade of opinion at Harvard was represented on the air and outside of Harvard students faculty administrators and even the citizens of Cambridge discussed the issues with each other and with the public at length. In the Christian Science Monitor had this to say any of the mass media can all too easily present and even magnifying the heat in a confrontation. The rent of television in covering the police versus protesters clashes at the time of the 1968 Chicago Democratic Convention. Will remain a matter of indefinite debate where TV can play its unique and in many ways commanding role is by bringing all the elements of a situation into our living rooms and at the same time shedding light on these elements. The people involved the drama the conflict the issues groups institutions points of view they represent.

It was a clear eyed documentary of a Vance dispassionate recorder of moods and to some extent as clarifier the channel to fulfilled its community obligation so splendidly. The channel was truly a communications conduit. And the article goes on to say that yet as indicated earlier one should not give the impression that the program generated more heat than light. Quite the contrary. At least one viewer who stayed the course was left with a better understanding of the Harvard crisis and a larger phenomenon of student unrest. It symbolizes the depth of concern felt by those who participated. Students and faculty was as impressive as the clarity with which most of the speakers presented to argue the discourse was variously tough uncompromising conciliatory articulate reasoning and at times eloquent. It was almost without exception absorbing. I read at such length from the monitor's review because it very correctly perceived that television the role that television can play in such situations. And I submit that public television if

adequately finance is almost always in a better position than commercial television to play this vital role in our communities. That is if adequately financed. The last time representatives of public television appeared before your committee was two years ago we argued then at a federally supported system was essential and your committee responded with generous and effective action. But in the intervening months the need for positive programming of the sort public television can and should supply is increased again and again. Everywhere one looks at the need for more effective communication among people and between groups grows more pressing the problems of the cities are worsening the threat of violence is ever present. Racial difficulties are not eased fast enough understanding among various segments of our society was never more important nor more difficult to achieve. The whites don't understand the blacks Ritch don't understand Kor citizens don't understand politicians and young don't understand old. In each case the opposite also seems to be true. None of us can predict with

certainty the crises that Americans will face in the next two years but I think I can say with assurance that communications between people will grow harder not easier. That failure to find better ways of communicating will become ever more dangerous for the society as a whole. Somehow this trend somehow this trend must be reversed somehow. People in our country must find ways to build common agreement rather than to exaggerate their differences. He's German I can make no claim that public television can cure all the ills of the country but I think we can demonstrate the possibility of public television to help bridge the increasing communications gap among all of us. As a country we seem to have stopped talking to one another. Maybe we don't know how anymore because the problems are too great or the differences are too wide. But it may also be in part that we have no effective means of communicating. Yes

we have television news and that does provide a degree of communication. But the standard headline type of news at its best is not terribly informative and at its worst is very may very well be destructive. It can be out of context a condensation and obstruction. It's not what individuals are thinking may not be what they're saying. It may not even be what they're doing. It's not the standard news is untruthful but rather it's incomplete. It's a communication begun but not ended. The result of such news programming may well be to aggravate greatly and already serve serious communications problem in this country. So I would like to respond Mr. Chairman to your question that you put to Mr. Macy yesterday regarding the 20 million dollars for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. By asking another question is 20 million dollars too much to spend to see if public television can help close this communications gap. When even 40 or 80 million dollars be too much. If

it were even partially successful I think not. I've seen just enough evidence of what this medium can do at critical moments in a community to believe we haven't begun to tap its potential in a role of helping each to understand the other. If public television can also teach in the classroom supply programs for professional skill advancement. Support and also project the best of our culture and heritage inform and entertain and also provide meaningful programming for children. Then I think on top of all of this you've got a bargain. Now Mr. Chairman I'd like to take the privilege to say just a word about the next witness Mr. Fred Rogers who is on my right. As I'm sure you know Mr. Rogers neighborhood is on many national educational television stations every weekday. The Mr. Rogers program is as different. As night and day from the standard children's fare on most stations. There's no violence there's no shoot'em ups there's no screaming cartoon.

Just a man who reaches out to children everywhere with love affection and respect. You might not think that such a program would do very well with today's children's audience and there would be many would tell you that the quiet approach to children is not a successful. But Fred Rogers is giving commercial children's programs a run for their money. Rioting reported in February on a recent audit survey in Boston something along these lines. The ever so gentle talking Mr. Rogers has the tots from 2 to 11 years old in its 5 to 5:30 time slot. They are BS as you so she the American Research Bureau the audience measurement group said that in Boston they prefer Fred Rogers to Superman. I spy Batman Thunderbird even Perry Mason the merc rep. Mr Rogers estimated ninety nine thousand six hundred homes with kids 2 to 11 represents a third of that audience. The show

reaches an estimated one hundred thirteen thousand homes for an overall rating of four and a share of 10. Mr. Rogers is produced by Pittsburgh WQED TV. Now Mr. Rogers is certainly one of the best things that's ever happened to public television and his Peabody Award is testament to that fact. We in public television are proud of Fred Rogers and I'm proud to present Mr. Rogers to you now. All right Rakesh you've got the flaw. Senator. Best story. This is a philosophical statement and would take about 10 minutes to read. So I will not do that. One of the first things that a child learns in a healthy family is trust. And I trust what you have said that you will read this. It's very important to me. I care deeply about children.

My first year we're going to make you happy if you read it. I'd just like to talk about it if I don't write. My first children's program was on WQED 15 years ago. And its budget was 30 dollars. Now with the help of. The Sears-Roebuck Foundation and the National Educational Television. As well as. All of the affiliated stations each station pays to show our program. It's a unique kind of funding in educational television. With this help. Now our program has a budget of $6000. It may sound like quite a difference but $6000 pays for less than two minutes of cartoon. Two minutes of animated. What I sometimes say bombardment. I'm very much concerned as I

know you are. About what's being delivered to our children in this country. And I've worked in the field of child development for six years now. Trying to understand the inner needs of children. We deal with such things as as the inner drama of childhood. We don't have to bop somebody over the head to make him. To make drama on the screen. We deal with such things as getting a haircut or the feelings about brothers and sisters and the kind of anger that arises in simple family situations. And we speak to it constructively. Follow the programme as if it's a half hour every day. Most channels schedule it in in the noon time as well as in the evening. W e t a here has scheduled it in the late afternoon.

Could we get a copy of this and see it. Maybe not today but I'd like to see the program. I'd like very much for you to likely see the program itself or any one of them. See we we made 100 programs for even the Eastern Educational Network. And then when the money ran out people in Boston and Pittsburgh and Chicago all came to the fore and said we got to have more of this neighborhood expression of care. And this is what. This is what I give I give an expression of care every day to each child. To help him realize that he is unique. I end the program by saying you've made this day a special day by just your being you. There's no person in the whole world like you and I like you just the way you are. And I feel that if we in public television can only make it clear that you link

our mentionable and manageable we will have done a great service. For mental health. I think that it's much more dramatic that two men could be working out their feelings of anger. Much more dramatic than showing something of gunfire. I'm constantly concerned about what our children are seen. And for 15 years I have tried in this country and Canada to present what I feel is a meaningful expression of care. I married. I'm the host. Yes. And I do all the puppets and I write all the music and I write all the script I'm supposed to be a pretty tough guy. And this is the first time I have had goosebumps for the last two days. Well I'm grateful not only for your goosebumps but for your interest in our kind of communication. Could I tell you the words of one of the

songs which I feel is very important. Yes. This has to do with that good feeling of control which I feel that the children need to know it's there. And it starts out what do you do with the mad that you feel. And that first line came straight from a child. I work with children doing puppets and in very personal communication with small groups. What do you do with the mad that you feel when you feel so mad you could fight. When the whole wide world seems oh so wrong and nothing you do seems very right. What do you do. Do you punch a bag or do you pound some clay or some dough. Do you round up friends for a game of tag or see how fast you go. It's great to be able to stop when you plan the thing that's wrong. And be able to do something else instead. And I think this

song I can stop when I want to can stop when I wish I can stop stop stop any time. And what a good feeling to feel like this and know that the feeling is really mine. I know that there's something deep inside that helps us become what we can for a girl can be. Some day a lady. And a boy can be someday a man. I think it's wonderful. I think it's wonderful. Those used in the 20 million that. I and. My. Anything that you think you would accept an excellent excellent statement and I'd like to I mean that seriously I'd like to get ahead you get a copy I want to see this.

I think I got to see this. There you see Mr. Chairman why he's one of the great personalities of public broadcasting I was so proud of him. Now if I have a I don't I think none of this comedian David thank you very much. Thank you. Just as our our final witness and he has a very brief statement back to drudge bear the director of education for the South Carolina state commission and shortly to be director of television for the Consolidated University of North Carolina Dr. Baer. Here for myself. That broadcasters one of my colleagues on the board Dr. J. Christian commissioner of education I'm sure I regret she could not be with us today. I simply ask that his Be happy the printed testimony he would have presented the accepted by the chairman for the record if I may. Without objection so. Anything I would say after Fred Rogers would be any climactic.

But I I do have one observation to make. Which is that history is a great teacher. And I think if we look into the history of educational broadcasting thus far. We would find it has gone through three faces. And they flee when its chief support came from the culture. And the monied. It was as one practitioner described it artsy craftsy. Perhaps more judiciously out of it. We've run out of paper. Yes. I am. Going to take a moment take a minute. More judiciously. It could be said in this early era that it provided programs strictly for the cultural enrichment of those who

surprise provided its support. It seems to me that as the base of support has spread. So have the services offered by educational broadcasting. The second phase we're now in has hyper gun has made abundantly clear. Is the phase of social consciousness when broadcasting is concerning itself with arousing the public for the agonies and the problems of our society. There can be no doubt that healthy and public money. From local state and federal resources have helped to shape this era. It is also increasingly important and apparent. That broadcasting can and should do more right than just just a loud alert and a rouse. It can also help to alleviate. And to satisfy needs in the society which supports it.

It can certainly do so for children through Fred right. And as a result I say it is entering its third phase the phase in which it teaches in forums illuminates in which it takes up its share of the burden. Of helping people down the long road to a richer wiser life. I come then not to plead for facilities for South Carolina or for Florida. And I plead not for facilities in and of themselves. Above all I plead only when a broad base of public support is supported. Will we truly have a public television. Thank you very much. You have been a great help today. Thank you very much for coming. Thank you Mr. Chairman for my growth as a traveler for fair for your.

Welfare system and. Economy. Well Professor Calvin Stillman trustee of the broadcasting Foundation of America is called to the witness table. We will pause briefly for a station identification and this is the eastern educational radio network. WGBH FMEA nine point seven mega cycles Public Radio in Boston. Live from the nation's capital you are listening to complete live coverage of the Subcommittee on communications of a Senate Committee on Commerce hearings dealing with Senate bill 12:42 a bill dealing with support for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting for the year 1970 Kammen Professor Cobb installment of trustee of the broadcast my Foundation of America has just been called to the table Regie isn't resenting it so you might say it's fine. The Board of Trustees of the broadcasting Foundation of America and I'm a professor in the College of Agriculture and environmental science or Rutgers the State University of New Jersey.

It's a very great privilege for me as a social science teacher to be able to speak here and to participate in this tremendous. For me a very tremendous experience of contributing to the democratic process of degeneration of legislation. For 30 years as a student as a researcher and as a teacher I've been undertaking to understand our world and to explain it to students into the public generally. Well a professor in the card to the University of Chicago. I was privileged many times to participate in the University's famous weekly discussion at the University of Chicago roundtable presented for 30 years on the NBC network. Through this experience I learned the value of radio as a medium in educational communication. And 14 years ago I was one of a small group who organized the broadcasting Foundation of America to bring to American listeners the best radio programming from around the world. The Public Broadcasting

Corporation has the potential of achieving a giant step in bringing comprehension of our world to all our citizens. Not on a one time basis to be heard and forgotten. But as a continuing reality which builds a sense of relationship with humanity in other lands and other cultures the medium of radio communication which is not a unique point six percent of all homes in America and 90 percent of our seventy four million five hundred thousand of all automobiles. I'm referring across to the people in the automobiles. The number of automobile radios alone exceeds the total number of TV sets. It also exceeds the combined circulation of all daily newspapers in this country. Mr. Macy has very well emphasized the role of radio and Mr. Holly underscored the subject again this morning. We have a program materials prepared for radio broadcast are also really used with no change in form in schools and in libraries reproduction is extremely economical. Radio materials can get re-used at the convenience of the teacher

and the student in the classroom for the convenience of the user of the library. This immense flexibility adds greatly to the educational usefulness of any material prepared for educational broadcasting. In the years since the war I thought opportunities to travel and to live on especially in many foreign lands. I went on a trip to Africa first in 1951 when I returned to the University of Chicago. I found that everyone was actually still learning what I had seen for two years I spoke to every group that asked me. Then I organized for the university. What turned out to be the first major conference on Africa at any American University I could find all new for American experts who knew anything about the subject. All the others I had to import from Europe and from Africa itself. Yet we had had mass communications and news reporters all over the world. But there was no sensationalism in Africa. Facts just weren't coming out. I was an example of what can be done by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting the broadcasting

Foundation of America provides an example. As I mentioned earlier we organized this corporation a few organize this foundation excuse me. Just a few of us interested in education in radio organized the foundation. You know I think 55 we set it up as an independent nonprofit non-governmental educational institution chartered under the Board of Regents of the state of New York. I stated purposes were first to invite nations throughout the world to share their views and opinions their arts and music cultural and so they could statements with the American people via radio programs. And second to establish an international structure for a two way conversation among nations. The broadcasting Foundation of America during the past 14 years has introduced a new dimension to American broadcasting. That has brought the culture and current affairs of 40 other nations to American citizens and students by providing a constant flow of take radio programs from all over the

world to our own radio stations into our schools. The FAA has introduced two American radio listeners the great music festivals of Europe. We could refuse with the overseas press programmes on science literature and the lively arts. DFA substations in 200 metropolitan centers all over the United States as well as universities and state school systems. To be I think a listening post on the world really a Radio Free America brings the views feelings and cultural achievements of other nations to our own people. Thereby contributing to increased international understanding and cooperation. I act been I've been active as an organizer of programs and I've taken my own tape recorder around the world to record the voices of those I know than those I met overseas. I failed them as an example of public broadcasting and well go straight to many of the points which I have already stressed. So it's use of the mass media for education and public information. We have things programming since both commercial and educational radio stations has done

so since it was established. It's an excellent example of how educational programming can and must be carried on through all sections of the American Broadcasting structure. As Mr. Frank Pace chairman of the board of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting recently recommended with a statement to your committee Senator passed. I'm also attaching a list of the trustees of the broadcasting Foundation of America. With me today in the hearing I'm George Probst American historian and educator formerly director of radio and television at the University of Chicago and founder and chairman of the Board of Trustees of the broadcasting Foundation of America. And Mr. Eugene Kay a longtime broadcaster former program director of WCBS in New York. And program director and former program director of The Voice of America currently executive director of the broadcasting Foundation of America. They were to join me in emphasizing to you Michael it is in their view of the BFA trustees

that Congress act so that the Corporation for Public Broadcasting can be fully funded in the amount of 20 million dollars in fiscal 1970 our years of experience in broadcasting convince us that a good job in public broadcasting as in commercial broadcasting cannot be done on a shoestring. To achieve excellence and to command public attention adequate funds must be available on a sustained and continuing basis. Otherwise it's the old story of putting in couplets to keep a token expression of the idea and the operation going but never making any significant difference of genuine impact. There are a number of countries that are in some respects in my opinion doing a better job in making use of the radio and television media to benefit their societies in Japan for example. There are three nationwide radio networks presenting cultural educational and public service material. Their finance plan a small monthly payment by the listeners and viewers at the same time and parallel to this service is a

tremendously prosperous Japanese radio and television broadcasting industry. Because we live here in America in the midst of a socially and governmental we define broadcasting industry which does not and should not permit the imposition of government control. If it meant censorship of broadcasting programs that lack good taste. We do not have educational and citizenship content. We need a fairly effective cooperation for Public Broadcasting. The mission of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting is to support public broadcasting so that an alternative service may be received by audiences throughout the nation. The electronic spectrum and its use is a matter of concern to all who care about the future of the United States. The objective should be to try to make this great natural resource more widely used to promote the general welfare of the public. The cooperation of the Public Broadcasting has been established by the Congress of the United States as a means of providing for our fellow citizens those who wish to use it. An alternative open supplementary radio and television

service. We need this. I believe that Congress should not proceed without delaying fully to fund the Corporation for Public Broadcasting for this fiscal year 1970 in the amount of 20 billion dollars has provided and asked Well what it took in the interests of a genuine alternative broadcast service for the American people to be trustees and I hope that this will be done. Thank you very much Mr. Chairman. Senator thank you very much Professor. You may rest assured if you read every single word of it. But as a video I think that sometimes if we traveled a little mo and recorded a little more of what's going on in the world we could better understand the premise for some of the decisions that we have to make and communications of course is the lifeblood of society. And unless we understand one another I don't know how ever going to promote peace in this world and they have the entire world in the ditch her

living in an age of fear are always always walking close to the edge of the a base. If I did you would talk about the game we're talking about this woman. Would talk about a lot of these things that we hope that we could accomplish. But unless peace is born in the heart of man. I'm afraid it's never going to come about too easily. And I congratulate you on your statement only Rest assured if we should read it. But I want to thank you for coming here today. Mr. Montgomery. Being called forth now is Robert Montgomery of the National Citizens Committee for broadcasting we just heard a statement by Professor Calvin Stillman trustee of the broadcasting Foundation of America and a professor at Rutgers University the college of a liar many scientists. Thank you sir.

A little older a little slower. Well it's a pleasure to have you him is to Montgomery. You may proceed. Thank you sir I have a statement which I would like to read. My name is Robert Montgomery. I came representing and I come here representing the National Citizens Committee for broadcasting in complete support as 1 2 4 2. I am a stranger in need to government know to broadcasting. I have served both. During the last Republican administration I was television and radio adviser to our late beloved President Eisenhower. For seven years I produced dramatic broadcasts on a major television commercial network. This took place before the three networks became intent on controlling not only the sale time but programming. I had been connected one way or another with the communications or entertainment industries of the past 40 years. In addition to being on the executive committee of the board of the National Citizens Committee for broadcasting I am

president of the Repertory Theatre of Lincoln Center. It is this background that I believe allows me to try and put public broadcasting and its needs into perspective. I try so try to do so with brevity. I'm here today representing the National Citizens Committee on behalf of millions of citizens who are tired of the waste and pollution of the greatest of the natural resources the airwaves. Are reduced because all of society's problems could constructively be probed and on the way to being solved by free and responsible broadcasting Instead the publicly owned airwaves of pillage by a few for private profit with very little regard for this country's and the world's citizens. Commercial broadcasting is not free. It is changed to sponsors and to their demands for the lowest cost per thousand viewers and it is most expensive to us who are not only charged for it by hidden costs but are more importantly deprived Byatt of information and taste

in its subservience to the advertising dollar. I say that America's broadcasting is an international as well as a national disgrace because its airwave pollution goes far beyond our borders. Men of taste and knowledge both at home and abroad shake their head sadly at the dehumanizing and desensitizing nature of American television and the false portrait of this country that it paints. It is not simply the national citizen's committee for broadcasting and I believe I represent here today. Disillusionment with the broadcasting status quo comes from everywhere. Citizens groups throughout the country are expressing their dissatisfaction with the performance of local broadcast licensees and challenging those licensees. The practice of citizen challenge the licensees will continue I believe and will increase the national citizen's committee will do everything in its power to see that it does increase. Indeed petitions for better broadcasting are beginning to spring from all parts of this nation. The American public is fully aware today that if we go down in

history as the age of violence commercial network broadcasting must assume responsibility for that title. The American public is also fully aware that you cannot preach to the children of this or any other country as the networks have done since TV's inception that the only way to settle an argument or a problem is to deal with Europe is to kill your opponent and not create an atmosphere and a climate climate of indifference to the human condition. This very Senate committee subcommittee has done a commendable job of calling to public attention. Many of the false values of commercial television and President Nixon himself seconded his opposition to the objectionable flaws which were pointed out here. I would hope that as the National Citizens Committee grows it will take on his allies constituencies for better broadcasting that already exist. I would hope that there will be calls for the strongest possible activists FCC regulating an industry licensed in the public interest to serve that public interest. I'm engaged at the

moment in speaking to state conventions of the General Federation of Women's clubs on the subject of communications. Let me tell you gentlemen that these ladies and there are millions of them in this country are weary of waiting for the implementation of public broadcasting. They are growing impatient with statements by the commercial broadcasting interests that they are backing public broadcasting when it is perfectly clear that the networks do not really want a truly competitive broadcasting public broadcasting system. These ladies want action not a holding action but action. As I have indicated there are millions of these. There are millions of members are not alone from this nation's first citizens to its last equality not only expects but demands quality. It's going to take a bit of time of doing to shape up the commercial broadcasting system. It will be done. It is going to take decisive action to shore up public public broadcasting and that must be done. There I'm an ominous signs however already the proposed 20 million earmark for the

Corporation for Public Broadcasting during the next fiscal year has been cut to 10 million. It has been said that the sum could end up as 5 million or less. I feel we must stop playing games with the potential knowledge and spirit that this nation's people can garner from a great broadcasting system that would be uniquely theirs. John Maisey and his associates must be given the kind of get stock money that will enable them to get started. The 20 million authorized in S1 242 must be given to them. But that is not enough. The National citizen's committee for broadcasting in this past month sent each of you I believe a copy of its report on the long range financing of public broadcasting by economics professor dick head of the oil University Department of Economics of New York University. The report addresses itself to the heart of the Public Broadcasting problem funding. That report says that there should be a trust fund for public broadcasting so as to remove the matter from an annual appropriations review. Why the representative of the National Association of

Broadcasters the shabbiest of the broadcast lobbies yesterday said he thought money could come from the general treasury Treasury. He and his friends know the pitfalls of that route for Public Broadcasting. He knows the influences he and his friends could exert against Public Broadcasting along that path and so do we. To recapitulate Professor Nance's report there are five main points he proposes in the National Citizens Committee concurs that this should be a tax on commercial Broadcasting's gross receipts at a rate of perhaps 4 percent yielding over one hundred and twenty million dollars annually to be assigned to the proposed trust fund. He proposes and we concur that there should be some system of charging for access to the Spectrum date designed to yield at least 50 million dollars a year to be assigned to the proposed trust fund. He proposes and we concur that they should be the establishment of the Ford Foundation's proposed broadcasters nonprofit satellite system with 90 percent of its net proceeds assigned to the proposed trust fund

yielding 20 million a year in money and substantial benefits in the value of free interconnection services. He proposes and we concur that there should be authority for public broadcasters to accept advertising under appropriate limits and controls. He proposes and we concur that there should be authority for public broadcasters to experiment with some form of subscription television. I asked at the National citizen's committee's report Long-Range financing of public broadcasting and the committee trustees cover letter to the president and Congress be made part of this hearing his permanent record so that it may be studied by all with an interest in this matter with a laser copy on the released my own. Could we include it by reference. Yes indeed you can. And the long range financing of public broadcasting must provide funds that are adequate in amount. The flow of funds must be stable to permit long range planning and program development. The method must provide growing amounts of money more or less automatically as

the cost of public broadcasting rise. It should not bear heavily on the poorer segments of the population and it should of course be demonstrably sensible. This describes the committee's report which we will say well it is a combination of long range financing proposals for public broadcasting into a single package free of any real or fancied political domination and funded largely by those who profit most from the use of the public's Airways. The corporations which control the networks. The plan is stable and the sums it would bring forth a substantial enough at long last to make noncommercial broadcasting technically professionally and competitively capable of serving the whole public with the prefer informational and cultural diversity to which all of broadcasting is called and to which so little of broadcasting responds. In January one thousand nine hundred sixty seven the Contiki commission said that a strong public broadcasting system would require two hundred and seventy million dollars. The

first congressional appropriation of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting for fiscal 1969 was five million dollars. This in times when the revenues of the publicly licensed commercial broadcasters are at their highest and the fulfillment of their responsibilities at their lowest. I would like to point out here that the gross revenues of the three major network corporations are a little over three billion dollars a year. Gentlemen it is taken 50 years since full time broadcasting began in this country. Let us look at the world the Gorn results of its commercial travels. Is there any question but then a minimum 20 million immediately be made available in the coming fiscal year for Public Broadcasting. I would plead with you for the adoption of the National Citizens Committee Long-Range financing report with it a free and healthy broadcast public broadcasting system can become a reality. The words free and healthy are not used lightly and I challenge anyone

to say that commercial broadcasting can be called either free or healthy. Thank you very much for listening. Well thank you very much and I daresay that these suggestions that you're making here today are very provocative and require a tremendous amount of consideration of course. A suggestion was made by this committee that the whole matter be studied on a very high executive level this question of long range financing and then of course we had a change of administration and no administration is taken over and we are awaiting that report. But I understand the matter is being studied and would be well for us to wait and let report is made and then at that time of course consider that in conjunction with the suggestions that you have. Brought out here today. But I will say this though of course when it comes to the matter of taxation I question whether or not a flaw is within the jurisdiction of this committee it might have to go

before the House Ways and Means Committee on the question of imposition of attacks if that's going to be the answer to the problem. But I quite agree with you that in the meantime there's so much that can be done anyway and we provided that what they call seamed money of 5 million dollars 10 million dollars would only be two seats. And I think we need I need I think we need better selling than that. I agree with you. Thank you very much. I would like to just make one other statement. I am constantly beguiled by the statements of the testimony given before various congressional committees by executives of commercial broadcasting corporations. I feel that we're dealing here with a sort of an industrial schizophrenia. A man appears before a committee and recommends highly that they do everything they can to implement public broadcasting the same time the

corporation that he represents is doing its very best to kill every implementation of that public broadcasting corporation. I think you should be aware of this and who are many of you are aware of it and I think the publicly is constantly growing more and more aware of it and I think the public frankly Senator is getting sick and tired of it. They're on to it now. They know what that kind of a play is. Thank you for listening to my testimony. Thank you very nice Mr. my gammy. There are Mr. McNamee I am. You've given a very very succinct and and I think Salman phrased it well provocative statement and I'm certainly with you 100 percent. They're part of your statement a cause for a long range financial planning and backing of public broadcasting. If the time to meditate doesn't lead us down many

many pathways and. I might wish. Another thing I would hate to raise any question about any statement you've made because you're one of the few witnesses ever appeared before this committee that admitted that they had anything to do with the Republican Party and it was a half day sleepers as Renia payment. But I am proud of there are some. This matter of how well obviously obviously those who have the use of the air. And a license to use the air and to reach the ears and eyes of the people. Should be subjected to some kind of standard. How far we can go in the matter of censorship. Is a great question and is sending from Long Island chairman long and very interesting and fruitful

hearings on this very problem. But. We also must bear in mind that the broadcasters on public broadcasting are human beings just the same the broadcasters in the commercial. Networks and the fact that they are being that they are on. Public Television doesn't entirely assures of their being always objective. I mean we're all subject unconsciously to our prejudices. And I say I go wholeheartedly. On the important parts of your statement. I wish we had time to discuss some of the other implications and I think I would go maybe two thirds away with

them. Thank you. Thank you Senator. May I just say one other thing that from the point of view of the politician today whether that politician be operating on a local state or national level. He has my deepest sympathy in regard to this whole problem because the there is a tremendous political power today exercised by these networks. We're we are carefully studying a recommendation whereby candidates for office in this country not be charged millions and millions of dollars for putting themselves before the public. But being permitted to have time or free time they allocated a mild of amount of free time over network broadcasting or public broadcasting or whatever broadcasting system exists to present themselves to the public. The picture of the people of this country subscribing anywhere between 15 and 25 billion dollars every few years to

elect their representatives to a government and that government is the owner of the networks of the airwaves seems to be a little bit ridiculous. I don't I don't know how a man in politics today can go out and raise the money. Well I still hold some of my recent campaign to. The Parkinson's aka be sympathized with. But I would call her attention the fact that the two senators here today and probably since we are states didn't get a I said to state. I said thank you very much and thank you thank you. I left with just this morning just Albon. Helton promoter as the acting chairman of the Association of Public Television Producers is now coming up to the table and leaving the table is Mr. Robert Montgomery from the National

Citizens Committee for broadcasting. All right thank you Senator. I'm an executive producer for public affairs at National Educational Television. With me this afternoon is Jack Willis. We're here today representing the Association of Public Television Producers. Our membership comprises some 90 percent of those producers currently involved in the creation of programs at two existing national programming services National Educational Television and the public broadcast laboratory. Also involved in the association or independent filmmakers who have produced for those services and producers on the steps of several affiliated stations. I think it's significant that after more than 20 years of television in the United States our appearance before this committee marks the

first time the producers of television programs have chosen to speak with a single voice. We are not a guild not a union but an Association of Public Television Producers deeply concerned that the freedom we have known thus far in public television the opportunity to present issues to viewers solely on the basis of our experience and knowledge of our craft is being threatened. Until 1967 public television grew haphazardly on a precarious diet of private and state funds from a variety of sources. During that time the medium was looked to as a viable alternative to commercial television whose limits are rather narrowly drawn by corporate profit and loss statements. The medium attracted us not with financial reward but with a chance to say what could not be said elsewhere. To contend with little else than our own human limitations. To expand the medium beyond the space it occupied. When we found it we have had successes and failures. We have had our critics and supporters.

In 1967 Congress moved to give public television programming federal support. We applaud that move seeing federal support as essential to the future of the medium. However the present method of annual appropriations presents a potential threat to the freedom of inquiry that is the essence of our dedication to the medium and indeed a precondition to the functioning of a free press. We believe that the Public Broadcasting Act of 1967 which gave birth to the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and broadcast the public broadcast system failed to insulate our own journalistic freedom and integrity and our audience's right to know. From governmental and special interest influence and control. We hold up the present method of funding public television through annual congressional appropriations contains implicit dangers to journalistic enterprise and expression. We speak of this concern at a critical point in the medium's history. Certain fundamental decisions are being made which promise to define the outlines of public television for

years to come. We are the producers who have helped define the medium's past achievements with our programs have not been consulted on these plans nor up to this time have we sought a voice. Now we do. It is our intention to exert our collective influence from now on. To effect the decision making process with our judgment and to express our vision of how a truly public television medium could serve the nation. Today this committee is concerned with the funding of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Everyone who has made himself heard in Congress on the subject of public broadcasting has agreed to the absolute necessity of finding long term funding for the corporation. When President Johnson submitted the public television bill to Congress in 1967 he announced his intention of proposing a suitable long term financing method in 1968 when Congress passed the act. It expressed a similar intention. Yet here we are in May of 1969 looking at another yearly appropriation.

There is no hope for a vital and truly public broadcasting system supported largely by government funds until we find a realistic long term funding arrangement. Given these convictions we support as 12:42 but we are concerned that a pattern of annual appropriations will be established. We urge that the corporation not come before Congress again for funds without definitive proposals and definitive proposals for long term financing of public television. We urge this committee the House Committee on interstate and foreign commerce. The Nixon administration the Ford Foundation the managements of energy and PBL the affiliate stations and all other concerned parties to work with the Corporation for Public Broadcasting in designing a long range financing plan and working for its implementation until it is a reality we intend to do so and pledge our cooperation and support to anyone who

shares our conviction. Thank you Mr. Chairman. What do you have any ideas of your own as to how it should be financed. Senator we are a relatively new group. We have not addressed ourselves as a group to these long term plans and which of the plans it has been proposed would have our endorsement as an association. I think most of us in the group if not all do have our own individual thoughts on that. But I cannot speak for the group on that subject. How would you like to speak for yourself. For myself I I favor the nets or plan as as outlined an imposition of a tax on the profits of the networks of the networks yes. Because the original suggestion was made by the Killian committee commission. With reference to an excise tax cost there again you get yourself into a tax

problem. Tax payer is already being insufficiently burdened with paying taxes and now we're going to extend you know probably might extend even under a modified form a surtax. These are very delicate problems easy to speak about and hard to say. When you get in the taxi area you run annoy a lot of confusion a lot of resistance and it is the chief problem here let's face it. I mean we're going to get the money for this because it does require big money. But I didn't say this dollar that I think you'll become overly long over this philosophical reaction that. Merely coming to the Congress means that Congress is going to. Control what you write. We were specific in the law. We were very specific in the law that there was never any intention to do that. And I'm afraid that unless you do come to

the Congress at this time and maybe for several years to come this thing is going to die on the vine. That's another thing too and once of things like something like this go you don't resuscitate it too easily. The thing here is to keep this thing propped up with a momentum which will gain speed and not lose speed because once you go down the hill I'm afraid you're going to run right up against a barrier and then smash it's all over. And that's a difficult job. One Administration recommended 20 million and for reasons best known to itself the next Administration recommends 10 million. They have problems they have problems and priorities and we have problems in making a proper decision here. And it's not easy. But as I said yesterday I have a strong feeling I managed this bill on the floor. I was with it from its inception. I don't pretend to be the father of it but I'm certainly been a great proponent of been a great advocate of it and I've been in the vanguard of those who've been trying to keep this thing

going. And I'm uneasy and I'm uneasy. And. There you are I understand your problems but. Don't fret too much we're not going to tell you what to write. We understand and appreciate yours and our concern obviously as stated is that a temporary expedient not become a permanent policy. Well I don't know how much of an experience some people feel the chances to put up more money even more than the 20. I would hope that eventually there could be some independent way of supporting this. What that way is of course raises a lot of problems. I would oversee that there is no misunderstanding about skeeters or misunderstanding about this we certainly support the bill as programmers. Who are deeply involved with us from day to day we know as well as anybody the money problems. We would hope that we would feel that 20 million isn't nearly sufficient. Well we're only going to show you what it is that in your anxiety and

in your interest. I mean please don't take a position that might give the opponents of this in these cues to say well if that's the way you feel about a brother just take a walk. I mean if there's time you need the Congress so don't lead to deprecate that because if you lose this chance you've lost everything. I mean every little diplomatic get the job ahead not everybody looks at it like pastoring cotton you know. Right of course when you boil it down under Rhee's come in a number. That's. Only two ways of supporting broadcasting. One is by the use of commission the other is buying government support and it's my understanding that in most of the countries that have that do

not permit commercials the broadcasting is is government supported. If we if we permit commercial use ID by the commercial broadcasters. And then and then tax them to support the under broadcasting when we are in a sense arbitrarily capping their revenue for indirectly using the commercials do to support public broadcasting. I mean it is a situation that if you go around the circle. And I think that Green Beret with jam and Dorian sat that there just as a baby is being mourned doesn't mean we can't afford to get in and

around about. Which college you going to and that is not said in any way to deprecate you are very sincere and very useful contribution I think that it's too soon. And I want to thank you very much for coming. Is there anyone in this room is it against this legislation. If not forever keep the peace. And so saying Senator John Pastore area of the state of Rhode Island is brought to a close the two day hearings on Senate Bill 12:42 bill relating to support for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. The price tag on the bill is 20 million dollars for fiscal 1970 and it will now be the job of the Subcommittee on communications of the Senate Commerce Committee to report out the bill to the full Senate. Today our

speakers included the honorable Marvin Mandella governor of Maryland governor Mandel was accompanied by Dr. Frederick writing field executive director of the Maryland Center for Public broadcasters in Baltimore and Mr. Herbert Kahane vice president of the Westinghouse Broadcasting Company. These gentlemen were followed by Dr. Frank stopping the president of the Columbia Broadcasting System on the CBS Television Network. Dr. Stanton was followed by a group of people who were introduced by William Harley the president of the National Association of educational broadcasters. These people were George Bair the chairman of the board of the National Association of educational broadcasters and director of education for the South Carolina Educational Television Network. Mr. Harper Gunn junior manager of WGBH in Boston Massachusetts. Mr. Gunn introduced Mr. Fred Rogers producer and host of Mr. Rogers Neighborhood a program originating from station WQED in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania. Mr. HOLLY identified the National Association of educational broadcasters as the professional association of institutions and individuals engaged in educational radio and

television he addressed himself first in his statements to the 1962 educational television facilities act. And he said the record of this legislation is impressive and instructive for the current discussion of Senate bill 12:40. So as a result of the legislation which extended from 1962 to 1967 Thirty two million dollars of federal funds were expanded to match almost two and one half times that amount in state and local funds with the result that in state after state where it had been previously impossible to generate enough funds locally new educational television stations were activated. A total of some 92 stations a result of this of course just prior to the Public Broadcasting Act of 1967. And speaking of the Public Broadcasting Act of 1967 Mr. Holly again brought us to familiar ground in talking of figures. He said of the 38 million dollars initially authorized by the Congress for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting a mere 4 million has been appropriated. A 1968 authorization of 10 and a half million was not requested by the administration and none was passed

and for 969 authorization of twelve and one half million dollars from the Congress appropriating only four million dollars a year 1970 which has a 15 million dollar authorization. Mr. Hali said the administration's budget now recommends only another four million dollars for a gun from WGBH in Boston then gave a statement which outlined many of the needs of the educational broadcasters and he stated that he appeared also as a spokesman for the educational television stations a very general area as the spokesman for a group of management of those stations. Mr Gunn then introduced Fred Rogers who provided one of the most dramatic points of the morning by reading the words to a song that he has written. What do you do with the mad that you feel. Senator past story responded to Mr. Rogers reading of that by saying Mr. Rogers I think you've just earned the 20 million dollars. Following the group from the National Association of

educational broadcasters Professor Calvin Stillman a trustee of the broadcasting Foundation of America gave a statement in support of Senate bill 12:42 a.m. identified the broadcasting Foundation of America as an organization which distributes 20000 hours of programming each year to commercial and educational stations in 46 states the District of Columbia Puerto Rico Canada Jamaica the Virgin Islands Trinidad and Hong Kong. It said that the broadcasting Foundation of America provides armed services radio with weekly programs for worldwide broadcast and is the exclusive distributing agency for all UNESCO's radio programs. He said that the broadcasting Foundation of America has been the U.S. State Department designated agency until the suspension during the Czech crisis last summer for distributing programs from the Soviet Union. Under the terms of the east west cultural exchange agreement was another very dramatic point in the morning I heard when Robert Montgomery of the National citizen's committee for broadcasting was called before this subcommittee. Mr Montgomery said in part and we quote directly from

his statement I say that America's broadcasting is an international as well as national disgrace because it's their way of pollution goes far beyond our borders. Men of taste and knowledge here and abroad shake their head sadly at the dehumanizing Indi sensitizing nature of American television and the false portrait of this country that it paints. Mr. Montgomery went on to say for the report which he introduced to the record of the committee by reference the report from the National citizen's committee for broadcasting. It is called long range financing of public broadcasting it was written by economics professor Dick Netzer the head of the all university department of economics at New York University. He said about this report the report says there should be a trust fund for public broadcasting so as to remove the matter from annual appropriations review. While a representative of the National Association of Broadcasters we are quoting Mr. Montgomery directly the shabbiest of the broadcast lobbies yesterday said he thought money could come from the general treasury and his friends know the pitfalls of that route for Public Broadcasting. He knows the influences he and his friends could exert against public

broadcasting. On that path. But that's a report as a rather luminous pamphlet. We have a copy of. There are five main points to the report. The National Citizens Committee is in agreement with all of them the first is that there should be attacks on commercial broadcasting as gross receipts at a rate of possible four percent which would yield over one hundred twenty million dollars annually to be assigned to the proposed trust fund for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. But there should be some system of charging for access to broadcast spectrums designed to yield 50 million dollars a year again for the trust fund for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. The third recommendation is the establishment of the Ford Foundation's proposed broadcasters nonprofit satellite system. Ninety percent of its net proceeds to be assigned to the proposed trust fund yielding some 20 million dollars a year in actual cash and substantial benefits in the value of free interconnection service for educational broadcasters. And that's a report proposes that there should be authority for public broadcasters to accept advertising

under appropriate limits and controls. The report finally proposes that there should be authority for public broadcasters to experiment with some form of subscription television. Mr Montgomery concluded by saying any long range financing of public broadcasting must provide funds that are adequate in amount of flow of funds must be stable to permit long range planning and programme development. The method must provide growing amounts of money more or less automatically as the costs of public broadcasting rise. And it should not bet heavily on the poorer segments of the population. And it should of course be demonstrably sensitive. Mr Montgomery was followed by a final witness when you just heard Alvin Prometa the acting chairman of the Association of Public Television Producers and testimony taken by this subcommittee yesterday the honorable Ross L. Hyde chairman of the Federal Communications Commission was the first speaker of the day. We then heard from Frank Pace chairman of the board for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Mr Pace was accompanied by John Maisey the president of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

Vincent was the president of the National Association of Broadcasters then appeared and he was followed by John Loring and James Loper both from community television of Southern California licensee of public television station KCET. The Honorable Newton Minow known private practice as an attorney in Chicago but an ex chairman of the Federal Communications Commission testified before this committee. And the final presentation of the day was made by John White president of the National Educational Television Network. He was accompanied by Mrs. John Gans Kone producer of The Children's Television Workshop. First live coverage was made possible through the eastern educational radio network as a specific service of public broadcasting and Public Radio in an attempt to bring before American those stations up and down the East Coast that are members of the Eastern Educational Network. The deliberations of this subcommittee on communications as they deal with this act which is very important to each of these stations. We would like to thank the entire staff of Television Station X

in Washington for a very generous technical assistance. This coverage is made possible through the cooperation of WMU at American University in Washington DC and WGBH FM in Boston. The program was carried to the northern part of the eastern United States where the facilities of the Eastern Educational Television Network. Lines technical direction for this broadcast by Paul de novo and David Eccleston. This is Robert Kerry speaking from the new Senate Office Building in Washington and this is the eastern educational radio network. Once again this is Robert Kerry speaking from the new Senate Office Building Room 51 10 where we are about to hear an interview as Dick McCutcheon from the National Educational Television Network will interview Senator John past story from the state of Rhode Island. Senator best story is of course the chairman of the communications subcommittee which has just concluded its hearings on Senate Bill 12:42 a bill to authorize 20 million dollars

for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting for the year fiscal 1970. This interview is being conducted primarily for a television taping it will be shown on educational television stations across the country later this evening in the technicians are just finishing their set up time so we should be underway within about one minute. Here on the crime as we mentioned before it was over here in the Senate room this is the last public hearing that will be held before the bill is reported out and submitted to the House of Representatives. It will go under the committee of Chairman staggers in the House of Representatives where that committee will either. Amend the bill. Or voted as it stands we are just about under way and now here is Dick MCCUTCHEON of National Educational Television. But we.

Are going to bounce right now do you realistically go back in with a chance of getting through the. 20 Million Dollar appropriation. Right now at this juncture I can do is talk of myself. As far as I'm concerned and I think the 20 million dollars a very modest figure at this point. You have a car that last Yeah we funded it by five million dollars and we called it seat money. By now. But we've gained a certain amount of momentum. I'm afraid that if we allow this to sag you're going to get a relaxation of the enthusiasm of spirit and actually of activity. Now I realize all the reasons why we must economize. I realize the strain upon the taxpayers and this idea of setting up

priorities. But you've got to realize that this is only a modest amount and it is indeed a very modest amount. And if you take and cut the 20 down to 10 on the authorization we don't know how much you get on funding. And the point is that what you might do is discourage this very impressive and dynamic thing that we're doing with public and educational television. And we've had what I would classify and characterize as a splendid hearing. We've had these dedicated people that have come in here who have shown us what they're doing with children programs what they're doing in order to bring about a kind of program that lifts up the morality of our people I think they're doing a yeoman job they're doing a magnificent job. And as far as I'm concerned I don't think that they should be discouraged. And my vote will be for the 20 billion dollars. I mean I think it's money well spent or you think the persuading you're coming to try I am quite hopeful that that of course when you get the funding that's going to be another problem. But.

For authorization and for funding I would hope it would be about the 20 billion dollars. There are many places in government where we can cut but there are some places sometimes when you make even a modest cut you dissipate the program in a sense and you will enjoy the program to the point that sometimes you question whether or not you have to go along at all and in this particular case I'm afraid if we cut it back material of a cut back in half as has been suggested that we might jeopardize this whole concept and that to me would be tragic. You know I'm going to characterize these hearings are splendid. Is there anything additional you would have preferred to have these hearings. You know I wouldn't say that exactly as a matter of fact much of it of course is a repetition a reiteration of what we already know. We followed this from its inception I was the one who managed this bill on the floor of the Senate. I'm quite familiar with all the ramifications all the involvements the

dilemmas the problems of raising the money and I am very much encouraged by the fact that the states themselves are beginning to pick up a lot of momentum. We had the governor of Maryland here today who testified here as to what his state intends to do that they're willing to make whatever contribution they can they're trying hard to solicit private money. Need federal help and this is one area I think we ought to strive to encourage rather to discourage because I think that this is a media that is absolutely essential to the proper education and elimination of the American people both intellectually and morally. Personally Mr. Montgomery statement here do you feel that there is a conflict of interest between commercial broadcasting and public broadcasting. Oh I don't believe that there is and there shouldn't be if there rares as a matter of fact of course all of the commercial broadcasters have come in Arendt's and supported this legislation. So I'm in no position to doubt them.

I have no particular grievance against one or the other no particular favor one against the other. I think that they both can live in the same family. I don't think either one is the black sheep of the family. I think you've got to be good white sheep and let's let's just nurture them along let's encourage them along and let's try to improve these programs in such a way that they will benefit. They will benefit the whole society. Have you had any indication sir as to when any planned from long range funding might be forthcoming. No as a matter of fact this matter was discussed by the previous administration. It was discussed by the kind of gay commission and as a matter of fact we on this committee have been prodding the administration to come up with a long range plan of financing. Well now there's been a change of administration you've got to give the new administration a chance. But for the time being I

think all we can do in that respect is to wait a little bit. You seem genuinely moved by Fred Rogers appearance here on the witness stand. Well I it wasn't moving thing. Anyone who was in this room at the time I was viewing this on television would have been moved by it. I mean here is a man who's trying to bring out the goodness of our children. He's doing it without this violence he's doing it without his gun play. And he's doing it in such a persuasive way and he himself seems to be inspired and he put me it's that same inspiration. And if you don't mean that the church if you're doing that to children it's worth every single penny of the 20 million dollars. Senator Feinstein thank you very much. In that interview you heard Dick MCCUTCHEON interviewing Senator John Tester we have a chairman of the Subcommittee on communications of the Senate Commerce Committee there is one more question to follow. And so we'll take you back to Mr. MCCUTCHEON In just a moment we emphasize that this interview is primarily

being conducted for a television taping and it will be a special presentation on nationally the kind of question that I was going to have an executive session the first part of next week. And I would hope that the committee itself would discuss it at that time. And we're going to try to get it out of committee as soon as we possibly can I can tell you the exact date but I'm not speaking in terms of money. I'm speaking not even in terms of many weeks. I'm speaking in terms of days. Thank you very much. Senator John Press story with Dick McCutcheon from National Educational Television. This concludes our live today coverage of the Subcommittee on communications of the Committee on Commerce of the United States Senate hearings in Washington on Senate Bill 12:42 for funding for the Corporation for Public Broadcast. This is the eastern educational radio network. WGBH FM radio 9.7 mega cycles. Public radio in Boston.

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