Say Brother; 2015; Learning the Hard Way
- Transcript
You first day we attended South
Boston It was just my sister and myself and a friend next door who on the bus and I was wondering why we were the only three people on the bus And so the first thing the bus driver told me before we even took off He said if any sticks or stones or bricks are thrown through the window to get down the floor My sister said what is she talking about the most of things to yourself? What am I getting myself into and I'm like what is he talking about if any sticks or stones are thrown through the window to get down the floor? And so I said well, okay, so we take off and it's quiet the whole trip up there Until we get to the top of the hill and everybody in the South Boston is in front of the school And it was my first real experience of prejudice They were very hostile, they were calling us names And they guys go home, you know sticking up their fingers up to us and
this continued throughout the entire school year Every day, they made a point to be up there in the morning and they made a point to be up there when we left in the afternoon And this continued every single day ran a shine For me, was I became so frustrated and so angry I was just I was like well, they really don't want me to come here, huh? And I'm gonna go anyways. I was assigned to go to that school and I'm going We'll leave in the afternoon to go home I mean, they were so happy to see us go. mean, they will stick their fingers up. mean, the tension outside was just bad I mean, it got really bad. mean one day one morning
This one of the parents she must have been about well, she was a parent and At the top of the hill across from the school. She's holding up a picture of a black baby and then she holds up a banana and then she's saying nigga and for a parent To be acting like this, I could see why the kids, know, the their children were acting like that, you know, they can own I mean I mean, these are grown. These are adults These are these are you know, people that have kids and everything and if they're gonna if they're out in the street Acting like a bunch of fools the kids are gonna do the same thing You know, it's you follow you, you know, it's most of you follow your roots and that's exactly what they were following They were following what their parents were doing and they took it into the school You know, and that that was one thing, you know, that was the I think the most biggest part Of the of going there, you know, and his father so much tension there You know, there was so much I feel they were so much against
blacks that you know that they wouldn't even give it a chance They even had their young children. I mean like two and three year olds showing them how to stick their fingers up at us And showing them how to hold bananas and teaching them how to say nigga and we're watching this as we're going, you know Going down, you know Leaving on the bus and I was I just couldn't believe it. I just cannot believe it. I Just couldn't believe it. I even now today I Was very bitter because you know for everything that happened I was very bitter for a long time afterwards because I just felt like you know What was it worth? You're in a school for education as soon as you come in you got to go through the metal detectives Oh, yeah, police all over the you know the the halls. I mean everywhere you went there was a cop I mean every time you turn around there was a fight, you know There was a group of people fighting at all times So like as soon as you break for one class to another there was a fight somewhere You didn't think about getting an education. You just thought about surviving
throughout the day Mostly, yeah, I mean it was that much tension. I mean I never experienced anything quite like it before Never experienced anything like it before Never it's something that you don't forget and I just couldn't understand why Are we going through all this amount of hassle because the color of our skin is that all it is because the color of our skin? The pain the anguish the shock and the fear evident during those first days of court order desegregation Proved Boston to be a simmering pot Racial polarization was pervasive in the city the desegregation plan merely lifted the lid off the pot setting off a city -wide turf war In one of the most notorious episodes a black man walking here along City Hall Plaza was attacked by a group of whites their weapon an American flag While that action among others horrified the rest of the nation which looked upon Boston as a cradle of liberty Upon Massachusetts is the most liberal of states many of those who
lived here who felt it to be otherwise Still were horrified by the extent of the resistance to the desegregation efforts I think there were some things that we didn't we couldn't predict Nobody would have predicted that white people would have been so upset About little black kids coming to their schools or mixing with black children in schools That they would have picked up wholesale at with great cost to themselves and moved out of the public school system Nobody could have predicted that the public officials in this city would have condoned that kind of action There was no support for the movement from public officials those were things that may be in our naivete We could not predict the picture should have shown more clearly the The hand in the door like Governor Wallace at the level of high government May a white the banks there was almost a total abdication of leadership Politically and in the business community and in the university community except for a few shining lights here and there So those
kids had nobody to lean on and they Parents pulled them out of school many kids in South East when Boston Public Schools were ordered by federal judge Arthur Garrity to end segregation back in 1974 the resistance did not stop with an unyielding school committee Refusing to draw up a plan of desegregation or crowds standing outside schools protesting the bussing of students into their neighborhoods or the creation of absolute chaos in some classrooms as Bands of youngsters showed up in some schools just to engage others. It went even further One must also remember that the majority of the teachers in the public school system were white The majority of those white teachers were opposed to desegregation So therefore they were not cooperating and they were not teaching our children There was a lot of malice going on in those schools towards black children And it was very very difficult for a black child to get a decent education. How is that malice manifesting itself? Well a malice manifests itself in the fact
that they would not call on black children To recite they would discourage them from from doing extra projects in the classroom They would mark papers down when they were When they were done well It manifests itself in many ways and sometimes they just wouldn't teach the children They just tell the children to do anything they want to give them study periods. There was no education I we did not receive. I mean we did not receive an education And nobody was more shocked than me when I received the cap and gown at end of the year Because I did not expect to graduate. I mean, I said how could I graduate? You know, I wasn't even here half the year. I always wanted to be a doctor, you know For years that's all I ever talked about as soon as I started going to South Boston I just didn't care about anything. I you know, I didn't even want to it's like as soon as I got out of school That was it You know because I because of everything that I went through not I mean not that I should have let that Stop me from achieving what I wanted to achieve But that just made my mind just
I mean it was I was totally blank once I graduated like going through all that I kept saying I don't want to go to school anymore when I graduated not even having all my points Graduation was only 45 minutes And they blew the softest, you know, it's it It was wild. It was out on a lot. I'm gonna start on a lot. I mean we have nothing to remember by no Schoolbook, know, no class ring, you know, nothing. No, nothing. I just feel that we were a drip I felt like I felt like, you know, we were guinea pigs and They were trying something new out and we were ready to see if it would work. We were it you can't avoid the pain Birth requires the birth of a better country requires labor pains and a lot of women die in labor Who don't have good health care a lot of kids die in education don't get a good education Did we lose a generation of kids? In a way, yes, but we
gained something that was far better for the Constitution of this country we made it work. It isn't perfect yet as you can see by our school committee vote The arrogance to think that a system those majority black cannot have but we've had one black president in the history of this school system John O 'Brien was president for one year the year schools were gonna close and that's the only year the same Attitude is still there and that's what the parents are talking about. The foxes are still in charge of the chicken coop Some say that one of the major benefits of the school desegregation plan is the unmasking of a seriously flawed system We weren't getting any education then you would go to a Boston school committee meeting and there was never any discussion of education There was only a discussion about Who is going to be hired here and who is going to be hired there? There was never any discussion of education before busing. We had absolutely no black principles in Boston We were the only
major city in this country that did not have a black principle As a result of the challenge and the protests We did get black principles. We got black administrators We had very few black teachers as a result of the protests and the judges order We got those kinds of improvements, which in my mind are crucial. It's not only a racial problem It's a class problem as well South Boston is a poor community Charleston is a poor community and in many instances their children were being equally shortchanged as black children But the difference was that they were white and being white They could afford not to get a decent education and they could get a job in City Hall or in the state house so that When you were white and you got a poor education, you could survive in the society not so if you're black so therefore I suspect that The parents in South Boston some of them may have cared about what was happening to their children, but they didn't worry about their children being employable Because
they were white and they had certainly an advantage over other children in the city. It's a major factor You think things have improved for white students from that community? There's no question anytime you do anything from black people white people benefit from it Who do you think had all the money from those busing contracts? You think it was black people? It was white -owned bus companies that that that received that money for the busing contracts and in any money Any money a profit that's realized from desegregation for the most part white people benefit So white people are advantaged in many different ways from desec It is a sense that many of our young people are losing something of themselves in the process Author Eskew was one of the original plaintiffs in the lawsuit which led to the school desegregation plan He says just the physical condition of predominantly black schools was enough to justify the suit in our schools were nothing more than drop -in places dilapidated
buildings lack of proper equipment and We could see that our children were not getting a proper education and we were like I guess Schools that were in the backwoods almost And we could tell that there was a difference in other areas We felt that the only way we could get an equal opportunity of education Was to make sure that what was happening in other parts of the city could happen here So we had to break down that de facto segregated situation. was here in Boston Eskew speaks of a daughter in the system. She was not a bust She started at the Trotter school an experimental magnet school designed to make inner -city classrooms more attractive To parents who were fleeing the system. She continued through the system in schools Eskew had been led to believe were among the best Despite considerable parental involvement. He says his daughter did not get a quality education. I think we we got sidestepped we thought probably bringing in the
the integration would bring about teachers better buildings and all excuse me all the other things But I guess in the hunch project of everything else the quality education started to to just diminish Would you go through this suit all over again? I probably wouldn't I'd probably hold for quality education And I think we'd do a lot more research And then going the route that we must have people of ethnic see balanced and so forth. I think we got disillusioned Looking at things today in hindsight. I'd say probably if we could have open up a lot more Schools that we had control of in our area More control financially and politically and things of that sort. We probably would have had a better vehicle to educate our children And I think we've been shortchanged And we'll continue to be We must begin to talk about doing something for ourselves We have to over the past several years the goal of quality education
was not on the front burner in the system. I Think the reward for a quiet school School where there were a few disruptions Was much more enticing and greater than the reward for a school where? 90 % of the students went on the college the desegregation order as I recall has in it a phrase That says that desegregation is to be coupled with quality education And I'm afraid the part that never was fulfilled was the quality education. I think right now we have a Number of excellent programs in the system. We have hard -working teachers in the system We don't have the resource in the system to bring us The supports that we need to be able to offer all of the minimal requirements the minimal activities We use our external resources to build on those appendages In fact the night
appendages those core programs that we really should have for our youngsters. I Think it's that coupled with Youngsters today live a very different life most youngsters work at the secondary level Single parenting homes, you know 70 % of the parents are working single -parented homes are Not able to provide the supervision and the opportunities that two -parented homes offered It's a complex society that we live in now. We have so many other Distractors than what we had Dr. Joyce grad is a product of Boston Public Schools graduating from Roxbury Memorial Girls High in 1956 in her truly integrated class It was just about then that the population of African -Americans in the system was increasing to such an extent that the school committee Could deliberately begin creating segregated schools Schools are a lot different today than when dr. Grant was a student events and activities She took for granted
for the most part aren't being offered. I walk into high schools and my hot aches It aches that the pride and the excitement and the activity and the Joy of Participation for youngsters who really want to belong to a school and If you look at the yearbooks for example of People of my generation 56 graduates. I belong to the foreign language club to the student government club to that I belong to everything it just went on clubs clubs clubs basketball club whatever We don't offer that today. It is almost impossible except in exam schools to get four years or six years of a foreign language Which I had as a student in Boston on the other hand we are teaching I Think significantly more substantive things Issues then then we as students learned. I Think the teaching is also
in many ways more innovative words successful and More Diversified I mean we have a curriculum now that has aids and drugs and substance abuse health issues we have a range of subjects that we never had In the 60s right now we are responsible for the drug education We're responsible for sex education as a first -grade teacher I had to give children the swish in the morning, which is a dental program to help Prevent, you know cavity build up. We are doing all of the things within the Boston public school system and Assuming responsibilities of social agencies the courts The family so we are doing so many more things now than teachers had to do You know years ago And so it makes it very a very complex issue to talk about Comparing what is happening now within and strictly an educational mode because we're doing
much more than just Educating as we knew education to be years ago Bobra Fields was in her second year as a teacher when desegregation began now She's at school committee headquarters where she spends her days pouring over charts and stacks of court orders All part of the desegregation plan the judge's ruling didn't apply only to students Prior to desegregation as any yearbook would show there was so few black teachers in schools That the court mandated the school system to appoint black and white teachers on a one -to -one basis Until black teachers accounted for at least 25 % of the faculty presently 23 % of all teachers are black 26 % of all administrators are black Busing the actual transporting of students to and from schools has been costly to the system right now It's crossing between 33 and 33 to 35 million dollars
Included in that annual amount is the cost of busing students to private and parochial schools as well a Public school department corner trip sheet shows Non -public schools get what some consider the choice runs and this year alone providing Transportation to students to private and parochial high schools is costing the system one and a half million dollars While some would like to do away with busing completely Now due to declining enrollment and subsequent cost mandated school closings even if it were permissible It's not practical. We're now faced with certain neighborhoods not having any schools at all So kids do have to get to school and by what means would they get there other than by bus? Busing was the headline grabbing issue affecting change in the schools in the 70s But there were many many more more profound changes which cut to the very core of the school's ability to carry out their mission The key issue say many who look back on that time now was one of control It manifests itself over and over in the city's budget
battles in the closing of schools in the assignment of students It is still an issue. They say and the new student assignment plan is just the latest chapter After a month -long battle in the courts and at school committee headquarters Phase one of that new student assignment plan went into effect this school year It marks the first time in 15 years the courts have not made decisions on student assignments Boston mayor ray flan whose office by the way did not respond to our request for an interview for this program Has been criticized for his role in the power play politics going on in the system now I don't know why people are surprised the person who's the mayor of the city who's been promoting this Is clearly one who made a vow that he would end the Use of the bus for children to go to school particularly To affect desegregation of the schools I think he understands that there are some things that he cannot say but he has found a way to try
and Move the schools back in that direction and he will continue to do that if he gets that kind of power Given the fact that we still are in a place where Most of the people who vote on the schools Are white and who have had a history of voting on the basis of Of racism then it seems to me that You have to make sure that That we're in a situation where they cannot return to A decision -making process that Was not in the interest of all the children federal judge author garrity issued his final orders in the case in 1985 But it is still on his court docket by any standard the system He turned control of to the boston school committee is vastly different from the one he took over 15 years ago Student population prior to
desegregation was 60 white today only 25 of the students are white Overall population is dwindled from 95 000 prior to desegregation to 59 000 today And there are new students in schools english and 10 other languages are used in the system Students who may have been institutionalized two decades ago are now mainstreamed into the system at considerable cost But with great reward What do you think she'll say A cooking class at south boston high the school which epitomized resistance to desegregation efforts Today it is one of the most racially balanced in the system 37 black students 37 white students from south boston 25 hispanics and asians We've never seen all the problems like you said that south boston high had 12 13 years ago So to us, I mean it doesn't even face doesn't faze me in the least. So this is just history Okay, from your own point of view, do you
think that the desegregation plan has been good for education in boston public schools? think it has because Even with the the teachers and the students the teachers feel different, you know teachers may have felt a certain way before The they it was a segregation and they've learned along with the students too, you know Everyone's learned from it. I think it was a good idea because if If you go by what other people think if we weren't together, you know We wouldn't know about each other. We would be going by other people saying oh You can't trust these people because they're a different color and you can't trust these because they're a different color Now, you know now we know how each one of us You know, we communicate with each other. We know how we are with each other And it's good like that because now we won't have to go through life saying well Should I believe my parents? I believe these people? know, and you'll never get to know people if you think of that Think that way
now we can know people and we can communicate with people better These youngsters challenge reports saying they're not getting an education. They are all college bound It's noted that more students from south boston high go on to college now than prior to desegregation These students say that while it is true that so many their age are caught up in the myriad of problems facing urban areas The majority of the students are now getting an education. You learn more about people and life More more over than education. mean our scores might not be the highest in the city But when we get out of here, we know something as far as you know social integration and stuff like that We know it We all pay a price to some degree for making sure that generation after generation We have to be vigilant We have to be watchful And we sometimes have to make sacrifices to keep our liberty liberty is not there all the time For us unless we you know fight for it unless we make sure that it's there And desegregation is a part of that liberty It's a part of making sure that there's equity of opportunity for all
people who attend a school system What's busing worth it? At the time I didn't think so but now you know everything happens for a reason And my my younger sister our younger sister she just graduated from South Boston High last year with honors And she had the opportunity to get into a urban scholar Program where she was able to attend UMass and She received an excellent education I mean she I mean she's going to Simmons College right now and she's she's she's definitely going do something with her life It did have its pros and its cons You
You
- Series
- Say Brother
- Episode Number
- 2015
- Episode
- Learning the Hard Way
- Producing Organization
- WGBH Educational Foundation
- AAPB ID
- cpb-aacip-15-5370t34j
If you have more information about this item than what is given here, or if you have concerns about this record, we want to know! Contact us, indicating the AAPB ID (cpb-aacip-15-5370t34j).
- Description
- Episode Description
- Documentary retrospective examining court ordered desegregation in Boston. Featured are twin sisters (Darlene Bramble & Charlene Bramble Rose) who were bused to South Boston High in first year of busing, Ruth Batson, Jean McGuire, John O'Bryant, Dr. Laval Wilson, Julio Henriquez, original plaintiff, Arthur Eskew, and current students of South Boston High.
- Description
- No description available
- Media type
- Moving Image
- Duration
- 00:30:23;01
- Credits
-
-
Producing Organization:
WGBH Educational Foundation
- AAPB Contributor Holdings
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- Citations
- Chicago: “Say Brother; 2015; Learning the Hard Way,” American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed August 25, 2026, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-15-5370t34j.
- MLA: “Say Brother; 2015; Learning the Hard Way.” American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. August 25, 2026. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-15-5370t34j>.
- APA: Say Brother; 2015; Learning the Hard Way. Boston, MA: American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-15-5370t34j