Basic Black; 2907; Conversations With Lani Guinier

You You Up next on basic black Harvard Law School professor Lonnie Guinea Sits down with Darren Duarte to talk about her ideas on civil rights and social justice What is happening in Washington is so paralyzing that I'm so much better off not having anything to do with it That's up next on basic black

And I am very proud civil rights attorney and law school professor Lonnie Guinear was introduced to the country when her friend President Bill Clinton nominated her to run the Justice Department's civil rights division if confirmed by the Senate. I eagerly anticipate leading a new and Highly regarded civil rights division that works to enforce not repeal the civil rights laws as But Guinear never got that chance Opposition to her nomination was hot and heavy her legal writings on the voting and other civil rights issues were criticized and distorted Under political pressure President Clinton

withdrew her nomination At the time of the nomination, I had not read her writings in retrospect. I wish I had Today as a matter of fairness to her I read some of them again in good detail They clearly lend themselves To interpretations that do not represent the views that I expressed on civil rights during my campaign like my nomination In which according to a democratic staffer I Was history Civil rights issues have been consigned to a similar fate Issues of race and racism for too many people are history Gwinear's views are not radical as her political enemies at the time would have us believe So tonight we hear the whole

story the story from and about lining Gwinear one of America's most notable scholars on civil rights And Harvard University's first African -American woman to be a tenured law professor Thank you for appearing a basic black we appreciate it. Thank you for inviting me We were just talking that you love to write and you've written a lot about your dad. He's had a major impact on your life Yes, he was a fighter someone who always Taught me the importance of lifting your voice He was a man of great dignity and passion and a wonderfully eloquent orator he was admitted to Harvard College in 1929 and Was told he was not eligible for financial aid because he had failed to submit his photograph with his application But it turned out that Harvard had a quota at the time a quote of two and he a quote of one, excuse me He was the

second person Second black person to apply and so in part this was a way of trying to discourage him from coming He wasn't allowed to live in the dorms and when he got to Harvard College No one would speak to him Including people with whom he had gone to high school He had graduated from Boston English and there were people at Harvard College that he knew and They would just talk right past him the first person to speak to him voluntarily was Ralph Bunch Who we met in the Harvard bookstore when he would tell you those stories? He told you those stories when you were a child. What was going through your mind? How unfair it was, I mean my father was a brilliant man and the idea that He had to Suffer he had to eventually drop out of Harvard College and Went to New York and then tried to get a job at the New York Times because the publisher had come to Harvard and had offered a Job to all freshmen who had been editors of their high school newspapers Which included my father and then when my

father came to take him up on the offer He couldn't even get on the elevator to meet with Mr. Ox in his office because they didn't allow blacks above a certain floor but to his credit mr. Ox remembered the Offer once my father pressed the point and he got a job running the freight elevator for the New York Times And I think my point is that he was never bitter. He would tell me these stories he was a wonderful storyteller and I would ask him to tell me the stories that I had heard five ten fifteen times just because I loved listening to him and He would tell the stories in part just as history that this is his life and this is the experience that he had but they were Stories of a fighter not of someone who was looking back in anger man. Do you have any? Sheard experience at all growing up or even now that maybe your father had

Well nothing that I experienced measures the blatant discrimination that my father Encountered in some ways the closest experience I had was in 1993 when I was made in some sense the laughing stock or at least was Called the quota queen and was Parodied not for what I had actually said but for cartoon depictions of my hair or my ideas and it was that same sense that I got from my father of Being present but invisible When he was at Harvard College that I experienced in 1993 when I've been nominated for a position But was not allowed to go forward with confirmation hearings Meanwhile, everyone is talking about me That's right You were nominated to be the assistant attorney general for civil rights in 93 the president Clinton and nominated you and it must have been Amazing that you were called by many people in the media quota queen And knowing what your

father went through that he right suffered at Harvard because of a quota that must have been right I've never advocated quotas my father was the victim of a racial quota a quota of one Back during a nomination process for the assistant attorney general for civil rights one of the things that People and impressed criticized you for was you were against this one man one vote Deal, but your writings talked a lot about cumulative voting, right? Can you talk to us about that? sure first of all, I would say one person one vote But I'm not opposed to each person having a vote that is equally weighted and equally Meaningful and indeed that's the problem I argue that in a winner -take -all system as we have that people cast meaningless votes They don't get to influence the outcome of the election and indeed in congressional races where the drawing of the district lines is done by incumbent politicians who essentially choose their voters by the way they draw the lines

you're giving the power to the politician not the voter and The election takes place once every ten years during redistricting not in November when they invite voters to participate in what is too often an empty ritual so the Maybe apocryphal, but the story is more incumbent Members of Congress die in office than lose contested elections. That's true So what I was looking for is a way that would bring more African -Americans into the political process But would also give all voters the power to exercise a meaningful vote And I looked at cumulative voting and also proportional representation systems such as they use in South Africa now in South Africa When they went to all -race elections They had a system where Every party got the same proportion of seats in the national legislature as

the Proportion of voters who voted for that party. So Nelson Mandela's ANC got 63 .4 percent of the votes they got 64 percent of the seats in the national legislature The Incautha Freedom Party got 11 percent of the votes They got 11 percent of the seats in the national legislature and then the white Africanas got about 17 percent of the votes and 17 percent of the seats. So when you win you don't win all of the power in our System 51 percent of the voters get a hundred percent of the power and if you're in the 49 percent you get nothing and Unfortunately certainly based on my experience working with the legal defense fund too often African -Americans were in that 49 percent Who had come out to support a candidate who then lost because of the power of the majority and even though that candidate got a very Large turnout They lost so Cumulative voting

basically says rather than divide people up into these Geographic sub districts will take a region North Carolina New York Massachusetts Boston Cambridge and we'll give everyone in that region the same number of votes as there are open seats So for example if you're talking about the Boston City Council and there are eight members of the city council everyone in Boston would get eight votes and you could Plump or accumulate those votes in any combination so if you wanted to put all eight on one Candidate you could and if you wanted to put four on one candidate and four on another you could if you want to put two on Four different candidates it gives an intensely Committed minority that votes strategically the chance to get at least one representative if that minority is More than one eighth of the population There are two examples that you cited in your book I'd like you to talk about it right now because I think To me it's it's for the layman it talks about the essence of some of the things that you're trying to do a that is

your son Looked at a magazine the Sesame Street magazine piece and also about a high school in Chicago Okay, when black students wanted the prom and they seemed like they had no voice in that well brother rice boys Catholic High School was having a prom and They were trying to figure out what songs to play at the prom and everyone in the senior class got Three votes and then they just added up all of the votes and the songs that got the most votes won and the black students Who are one tenth of the population? Notice that none of the songs they had chosen got enough votes because they were using this win or take all System in which you had to get the most votes in order to get any kind of voice One of the thoughts that I had using cumulative voting is instead of giving everyone in the School a few votes, which you then treat the same give everyone ten votes Which they can plump or

aggregate on their favorite songs So if the black students had several songs that they really wanted played they could put all ten of their votes or five Votes on two songs and they could not be denied at least a few songs at the prom instead Because none of the songs they want to play were Chosen the black students had a separate prom at their own where they play their own music in the newest and hostility with the students And why are you doing that majority one right should go along with us right now? My son had another solution, which I think is very consistent with this whole theme He was at the time for and we were reading Sesame Street magazine and the magazine had a picture of six kids trying to decide what game to Play and four wanted to play tag and two wanted to play hide -and -seek and the magazine Had this picture under a caption vote exclamation point and so they said to the reader Well for want to play tag to want to play hide -and -seek what game will the children play and my son surprised me He said well, they'll play

both first. They'll play tag then they'll play hide -and -seek And his point was the majority should get the privilege of going first to recognize their superior Numbers, but the minority should still get a turn During that conversation that the president had with you The day that he was gonna withdraw your nomination. It sounded as if he was saying to you, you know Lonnie You may have a voice now in America That you may not have had if you got this job. Do you agree with the president? Well, he said to me that No matter how this came out I would end up with a public voice and he was right and I am blessed by Finally having a voice there many people go through Experiences that are much worse than mine and they end up with nothing neither a job nor a voice so You still talk to the Clintons. I Haven't spoken to either of them since the last time I spoke to the president was an Hour before he addressed the nation

to withdraw my nomination in June of 1993 I haven't heard from him since then now you were friends with He and his wife because you both went to Yale Law School, correct, right? Do you would you say that you no longer have them as friends? Well, it would be hard to call someone a friend that you haven't spoken to in five years During that nomination process There were some people that you tried to speak with some senators you weren't very successful in talking to a lot of the senators on the judiciary committee at that time But one in particular Carol Mosley -Bron the black woman from Illinois was on that committee You never got a chance to sit and talk with her. No You called her or some people called on your behalf. I Finally got a call back from her after I'd been on Nightline and Had gotten my first chance to speak to the American people about who I was But she said well, we'll talk next week and Never never came. What were you thinking of the media then

and what do you think of us now? Well, I Feel that there are some very well -intentioned people who function as journalists, but the structure of the Media business is such that Journalists are not given a chance to really do What they know best which is to get the facts to get Information to report on information that could help people make a decision in their own lives It's in order to get the audience you have to in many ways exaggerate the controversy or Feed the controversy to try to create the impression that There's something very exciting Happening, but it it's all done on such a short Life -cycle, so there's no time for people to think there's no time for journalists to do their homework It's all about getting there first It's this

winner take all society in which the goal is simply to win and you win by being first not necessarily by being best but frankly, I Don't feel sorry for myself. I don't I think in many ways I had a chance to Realize that what is happening in Washington is So paralyzing not only of journalists, but of politicians of civil servants that I'm so much better off not having anything to do with it And that's the sad part because I think that says something really That there's something fundamentally wrong with American democracy and our political Conversation that goes way beyond the little piece of it that I experienced personally So what was happening with you personally? mean what was going on your personal struggle during that period? Oh? Well, you know when I was a kid

I used to have these anxiety dreams before the first day of school And I would wake up in a sweat in the middle of the night Thinking that I had gone to school and I had been inappropriately dressed and I had worn a slip and had forgotten to put on my skirt or At the time girls had to wear skirts or dresses and I had worn pants And I'd have this dream or a nightmare of walking down the hall and all the other kids would be pointing at me behind my back and laughing and I would have no idea why they were laughing and then that's how I felt in 1993 that my worst nightmare had come true and Of course the irony is when I mentioned this to a professor of psychology You wanted to know just like you what was it really like And I told them this story said well now you're cured. You've experienced your worst nightmare and you survived And so that it was my worst nightmare to be publicly humiliated Are you knowing what you know now? Are you glad that you didn't get that post? Yes. Yes Yes, I feel

that I could not have done anything consistent with my Vision or my own experience. I think that People in the Clinton administration many people who subsequently did get jobs and then left Told me that they were marking time. You think it keeps good people away from politics. Yes I think it keeps anybody with any sense Let's talk about what some of your passions are and those civil rights is a major passion. Correct. Yes Why did you choose that to be a civil rights attorney? Well when I was growing up the civil rights movement was at its Zenith and I can remember in 1962 watching Constance Baker Motley Who was a black woman lawyer working for the NAACP legal defense fund escorting James Meredith to the University of Mississippi? He was integrating the school and I remember looking at her and she was so

Dignified in some sense like my father, but this was a woman And she was doing something that I thought was really brave and really important and I thought well, that's what I want to do when I grow up Let's talk about Your dad again. We'll ask for first. talk about you. You're the first woman of color tenured at Harvard Law School That's kind of ironic in light of the experience your dad had isn't Well, he had a chance to come back. He was the first chair of the Afro -American studies department at Harvard and He had a chance to complete the circle But when he came back to Harvard African -American studies was still considered a very marginal discipline So in many ways, it's not until my return in 1998 that there's a sense of moving from the margin to the center Well, I don't want to be the first and only black woman at the Harvard Law School right I Alone as an individual no matter how

Impassioned and no matter how honorable cannot change an institution alone and Yet many people I think Have the sense and this was implicit in your earlier question that if we can simply get one pioneer Through the door that then the doors will fly wide open and I think that's a fallacy And yet we have raised expectations as to what that one individual might be able to do Because she or he is now inside and my feeling in part as a result of my experience as a civil rights lawyer is that the African -American community has Abdicated has given up has defaulted on our real power Which is the power of organized energy the power of collective action the power of people making demands on institutions to be more just and Instead we have sat back waiting for institutions

to open their doors to one or two Acceptable individuals and even if those individuals are well -intentioned and conscientious You need the community behind you. It's more likely the institution will change the individual than that the individual will change the institution I got you. Why do you think we lost that? How did we lose that at some point that America the America's black community was always pushing for change? We're making noise when they saw injustice is happening But we don't see that now Well, I think part of it is a pragmatic choice that people went for the short -term gain rather than the long -term vision and They wanted the bird in the hand rather than two in the bush. I think it was also That the civil rights movement in some sense was I Don't want to say misguided but lost its way. It's almost as if a cabinet that looks like America becomes Freedom as if if Martin Luther

King, Jr. We're still alive and he was secretary of HUD That we would all be free at last got you and it's not about a good job For dr. King. It's about making America live up to her promise of a good job for everyone and I think in the past African Americans really were Signaling deeper flaws in our System of justice more generally and instead of playing that role which is In some sense the role of the vanguard or at least of the leader we have become more like the rest of Americans more self -centered more Insular and more interested just like I said in terms of the media and a very short time Frame much more interested in what can I get for me today rather than am I? Functioning in a principled way that's

going to make change possible not only for me, but for my children and my grandchildren This is your latest book lift every voice turning a civil rights setback into a new vision of social justice explain again a little bit about that title and What are you hoping people get from this well? I wrote the book for my mother -in -law who finished the 11th grade and I wanted to explain to her What had happened in terms that I felt she could understand and that? Other people who had no interest in my law review articles At least not as law review at you know works of scholarship could understand just good read And the theme is from the African -American national anthem lift every voice and sing and it's about faith and the lessons learned from the past and hope that if we lift each of our voices We can make a difference in the future What experience or what has has your family done? then we talked a lot about your dad and and how he inspired you and how he

affected your life What about your mother? My mother is still alive and in some ways she gave me the best advice In 1993 and she didn't give me that advice in 1993 She gave it to me as I was growing up and there were some kids across the street Who went to a local Catholic school and used to taunt me and she said Lonnie put yourself in their shoes. They may be jealous because you do so well in school and They're just using this as a way of redeeming their own self -esteem. In fact, they were very prejudiced But what she was trying to get me to see is that I shouldn't personalize their Criticism or their rejection because it was much more about them than it was about me and that advice don't internalize criticism Was extremely helpful in 1993. I bet it was Lonnie Guneer, thank you for appearing on basic black. Thank you very much I

yield to no one in my earnest hope that the time will come when an affirmative action program is unnecessary and is in truth Only a relic of the past. I would hope that we could reach the stage within a decade at the most I suspect that it would be impossible to arrange an affirmative action program in a racially neutral way and have it successful to ask that This to be is to demand the impossible In order to get beyond racism. We must first take account of race There is no other way and in order to treat some persons equally. We must treat them differently We cannot we dare not let the equal protection clause perpetuate racial supremacy That opinion was issued by just as Harry Blackman 20 years ago in the Bakke case In that case the Supreme Court had held a program in California allowing affirmative action as perpetuating diversity Since then diversity has

been an attack nationally and locally Here in Boston Chief Judge Toro upheld a program at the Boston Latin School allowing substantial numbers of minority students to attend that school Just recently the first Circuit Court repeals reversed Chief Judge Toro Santa Program was not constitutional. It is a very disappointing opinion. It doesn't end there It's clear that the Boston School Committee had the moral imperative to promote racial harmony and integration and yet not the legal argument Now's the time you Mayor Menino you Superintendent Pazant you Mr. Giddens to get together and look very carefully at this case It may not be wise to appeal it to the Supreme Court But it may be wise to go back to the drawing board and develop a program that will perpetuate Opportunities that promote equality and excellence our children demand no less and each of you each of us has a Responsibility to ensure that every child has the opportunity in this Commonwealth to learn Let's go back to the drawing board. Let's not appeal this case

Let's make it clear that in Boston every child will have equal opportunity in an opportunity for success It's a disappointing opinion by the first Circuit Court of Appeals But it's a wake -up and a reminder we as a community have an obligation To ensure that all of our children from the time they're born until their death are well trained and well prepared for the 21st century Let's get to work on this right now. Let's give our children a chance for a productive future here in Massachusetts For questions and comments, please visit our website at www .wgbh .org You