1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-06-28; Part 2 of 4

it's b but because he was concerned about his client's the amendment rights so they only points at night and that was all quite so putting these questions that requires approval of the white house counsel also quote call attention with his duty just being human like at this point is to give jungian a chance to rest his voice that agency and also ford senator obama turns to get his questions ready for the witness it's now the germans turned of all

i'm terry gross i think you know this week it really has

been limited i have yes i don't

believe you you're going to play all government of domestic intelligence chairman subcommittee heard that at present a comedian mr hughes was there are representatives of the intelligence agencies and the president at that point i would have skated to those industries in libya now intelligence and security

now melissa information which is i don't know the neighbors that have a record deal you know that the recommendations

but you know he's been through i thought that since they recommendations on it to me as a secret panel the economic council might operational restraints on intelligence collection and then is missing and b part of it jeremy to be

repaid now that recommend make the thought that in short make these recommendations as to allow a route that means there should be a problem as houston's in gavin them as the intelligence of the mouths of like an internal security and for the online which is number b recommendation is electronic surveillance and generations and set recommendations leadership the change from an intensification of private individuals and groups the united states to pose a major threat to internal security another words of the recommendations that were just wasn't

recommendation all electronic surveillance of inflation and the magical second recommendation was the use of mail be a recommendation was a recommendation of a technique known as cell that basis and now that does not leave the old girl so if it doesn't make it there's a technique with his followers of this technique is politically it was horrible

thank you that information and the state you're right all these recommendations for recommendations of the existing restrictions on the use of these old techniques except the one about the reagans be removed that has

meant that many of these recommendations that footnotes donovan were at each one of them how did not have the original documents oh no yes it was oh wow securities you're

welcome there's even that but again well security work that is right one of the reasons for developing this was quick to get intelligence that was more responsive to the requirements of the white house is i think that there were continued complaints about the

intelligence and mr chabon yeah in this area that is good so the patients in all of iraq and the electronic surveillance and penetration prosecute him about a somali you're welcome

and now information yes sir all of that information it was amazing and has had to reduce the

committee says i'm not an m four mystery isn't separate domestic intelligence review the recommendations the recommendations you know the review had been approved by the president he does not have a lot of imitation you have the thing somebody put an emotion on the basis of disapproval of them should of course be prepared and that should be good i realize this is contrary to your feeling as to the best way to get this done i feel very strongly that this procedure was working you'd better let me know it will take another stab at it otherwise let's go ahead who

is it that the united states had improved his recommendations about removing the limitations also acacias surveillance and penetration are you oh yeah now it used to be used on my and the

purpose what is it and effectiveness the militias that his plan was not being implemented without telling me that any if i could do anything like that and how do you follow that poem i don't know that they're about no sir when i talked to mr mitchell about it didn't reach the stage that i wanted to do something like talk about it and we decided that the best thing to do was to create the icc and that was

it the fbi you got it i'm renee montagne read the real of the united states go about the cia or something domestically

that's the idea in the sense that iraqis in the world oh candace cannot believe what the cia did in this instance was to share their own intelligence from a lawmaker that would have a domestic implications and they were partly because of their expertise in the masters improve security co op to evaluate the vatican and that is that i'm not familiar specifically with how the

evacuation who operated at austin the characters that they were apparently at a desert you do i don't know and state residents approve of the recommendations made by mr hisham kassem anticipate when anwar whoa that effectively the prison business grew you know i think i was late july when i came on i don't recall

what that was rescinded them out now but if you look at it and say do you remember these all that is heard and i might add that when we decided to play with this song where does this might satisfy me we need to do something

the liaison between the fbi and other intelligence agencies have really broken down i believe mr hoover had withdrawn almost liaison relationship that the white house that's right he's a monster is it the food within with so so that the disapproval always ended these plants with you with this parliament said he had approved that's right that is

right i know the contrary as citizens that communicates through september eighteenth i was asked to see what i can do to get the first got started on the documents and this was reflective of that effort opposite went as an adult but you're familiar with exactly was eleven thousand six hundred and fifty two dated march eighth nineteen seventy two weeks is that they get through that section one of the falsetto airplane that could be on the basis of national security is informational material which required protection against you in the united states and were that

that was a result of the mainstream of over classification of documents in the government if somebody or want to give somebody the attention i think of the net the top secret on a memorandum and senate seat with big reds tampa or some remark thank you i'm ready gather information and other classified information is that i wanted making aerospace go seven mandate and nothing is that classic

follow information security demonstrations and the american reality i'm ike which is a great concern about demonstrators i think the demonstrators were viewed as a political problem and i use the word fear

i don't know that most of the physical concerned about the matter is one man who is walt whitman the demonstrators threw out there certainly year are not officially ruled there were some militants who are bent on destroying all buildings in and breaking windows and give that major polluters that treasures like that i would say that's it was of concern inside but i think it was an election that i'm also while people and millions of people in the white house about americans to exercise their first amendment rights because of redress of grievances i think that was being done

family been reelected president that every person who is not but back in their efforts to re elected president i think that many people who were most vocal and to command some audience in their in their dissent or considered opponents her enemies yes and how great is the people including some of them also abstain we spell out the commentators and news media on the nicest human or animal that vision you know i'm

going to get it this particular song a central issue in the us then nalls and didn't allow president nixon's re election committee and then the public religion and relations committee that most people are descended from our president makes as well this is a and all this nomination

oh yeah with all we have now it will be amended elements who's mayor of this is that they believe as the supreme court the united states has about a week ago because because and

find a way it was art and leveling with the american primitive beginnings were the president was concerned that all the available actually made no analyst at nato and that should be made you know a little humility you made it home mr cannon i must have been an eerie that i think some of the documents that i submitted specific instructions to me

i'm doing well the subsequent meetings where there were attempts to woo members this committee the discussions of executive privilege to prevent the testimony of people from the white house but what we concluded the evidence and her intention now you know for being with us and was about when was that meeting here with respect to the time that the bills and i handed down in the eu a ritual of them what it was the helicopter might even landed during the very end of the meeting to

work at this point i'm going to remember we continued to chat on we'd gotten into a subject for the book i was reading at that time which was inside australia and we were discussing australian so while while awaiting indictment had been handed down announced earlier in the day and had been running on the wire now and as we know information to the affected areas have been called him a democratic national id laws and wanting and a thorough enough which came from the committee to reelect the best of years and

now now what about this fall at the instigation mr ruben with mr mitchell i believe that is correct you were because these that indicate that do what steps with whip on the wall and a ride in the bus route right into the committed to elect the president of the us and nobody on the committee accept them and now it is

dr that's right and now that is correct and discussion within the white house about this right strategy of stopping them at stopping the case that mr libby and so you know an accident president took an anatomically and seventy of their view until the committee and until

now i do know that the election was discussion with mr coleman in his office in which all of them said that the president would like to lay out some of the facts and we discuss the implications of those facts could be and when i said that i felt that i'd want to know everything that happen in advance and i didn't know what had happened since june seventeenth and i thought that as a result of those activities that moment diem and how much of that time also could be mr cameron right the pay to pay and the fbi why

haven't you well i back in his attache case to him and then pick up another bunch of documents are subsequently and then return later and it's only been for press accounts that i learned that i was at two hundred and sixty year old arguments you can explore the use of the cia supporting

i disagree that is correct hold it was suggested rebels in charge of trying to move more concerned about the so called illness that the process of internal revenue service that people didn't know do you really i am you remember

regarding the tax exemption status of groups that have tax exemptions or close to it i don't know now specter's committee you're welcome

this is it one surprise and went to now the possibility of meetings proceeded and there with the remainder of the two days of discussions about how to deal with his committee during the course of eating the meetings are one point in time as less as i've mentioned earlier there was an assessment made by mr wittman and disappointment they have not been able to influence the selection committee didn't disappointment at

minnesota men successfully a resolution and to equal representation and republicans and democrats need for amendments on an awkward date had been defeated they get some of these are evidence in the memorandum mr coleman that's in the exhibit i submitted it was right the plan well i would probably have i would probably haven't attention to the exhibit meeting with the attorney general where there was great concern that this committee might uncover additional criminal activity relationship i was

too there were twenty seven now locals are meeting the president attended and with the ap a press conference in which he wanted to commit it was going to swallow laypeople about this conference about up at a hotel that was a no the leak welcome back was i'll approximate markup is that the banks of the black beauty

say apple from president about it and i'm going to request that you do that's true what is with you the people of it is

because the pay is a lot that's right we're going to really include the possibility that you would allow low wage or his mate and if it does would you be with a formal inquiry report get one that required some testimony from white house aides he made yesterday yeah exactly

we were the circumstances we will be cases with at this time and at the democratic emancipation of all yet the city of cases we would welcome it perhaps this is about a lot of this land make a definitive decision i'm definitely a simple yet but i would suggest that the members didn't know what it is that law that says medical corps think we will and we

agree how is that debate that is correct well we've discussed that before he made that statement to them that today before the committee and only one and this i think that

initially statements of the animal and it's much easier for her to believe that the situation that it has to submit yourself to cross examination well they're doing yeah yeah i live

in atlanta it's business you're going to do how you all there i've given the facts as i know them and i don't play a lot of these views on my own conclusion on that at this point you know most of the questions about her credibility when

it was allowed to be a problem i think in ways alton his legislative bodies and this horse has not demonstrated that dollar rollout will weigh in with the credibility of the latest to be tested is for that raises to be interrogated apollo and now and it's a novel about what he says but it has gone up in the maine on the senate and also by whether his testimony has corroborated or not corroborate other witnesses mr

it's both senator obama's backtrack to the summer of nineteen seventy and going well beyond the watergate break in and scope of these questions and also there's a question right were also great public television's coverage of the watergate hearings will continue after this pause for station identification on average coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service of the member stations of pbs for public broadcasting service the pittsburgh as

bell and in fact continues its

coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on presidential campaign activities you again correspondent jim lehrer after lunch senator evan have one for the question about mr deans personal finances thank you that appears to be the month of october nineteen seventy two and it indicates and so that indicates that immigration matters

six hundred and sixty seven dollars and as the evening that the city is trying to non natives ninety nine every year so that sounds like you have the assets to the place so forty one are probably due thank you it's what lessons i thank you for that and i'm happy to relinquish my place in the sequence of questioning so that you could complete your very very very very important life questions for i was about center stage in a very patient way that's been very thorough

and presented us with the great mass of information almost two hundred and fifty pages and your written statement the luminous testimony in response from the interrogation of members of this committee and we're very grateful some are the specific allegations of jamaican her testimony are at least they share an extraordinarily important the less on what your testimony early mind boggling it isn't my purpose and these are questions that are about to follow to do what would ordinarily be the expected function of a committed member of the church at her testimony i think that too subjected to a rather rigid examination by my colleagues on the committee that's far

and of course your testimony and its credibility which important and relevant well not only in terms of its own independent significant but in terms of its relationship to the testimony of other witnesses your lawyer mr dana we go into a long preamble about what i'm about to do it so if you understand what i'm trying to get out some brief explanation she said just a moment ago is not my purpose now try to test your testimony it is not my purpose attractive feature testimony to corroborate her testimony to a lab where it's been particular aspects of it but rather to try to structure your testimony so that we have a cotton recent asian against which we can measure the testimony of other witnesses reported

on the testimony of other witnesses later to appear and of course against whatever other information the committee can gather around circumstantial evidence from whatever surely it occurs to me that at this point the central question i know i am very question of the importance of the great material on the implications of all time but that the central question is what is simply put the president know and when did he know and trying to structure your testimony i would ask her to get attention to three categories of information that information that important

committee but you know that type of information that we lawyers refer to as circumstantial evidence which would include evidence given based on your opinion or in circumstances and the situation and third that type of evidence that ordinarily would not be admitted in court of law what is admitted here for whatever purposes nice herb that is hearsay evidence or evidence about which you have only secondhand information i would hope that in that third category that is in terms of hearsay evidence or secondhand information that we would try to an eye to limit the scope of that to situations which made the father ventilated but the testimony of other witnesses on the roster says to appear before this committee veron says the very way

of life divide the information then as we go along with reports that is direct evidence circumstantial evidence and hearsay or second hand information i'm in no way criticizing your testimony i think he really been very remarkable witness that would like sailors in preparing my testimony i'm a bit wary conscious effort to not write a brief against any men that mistake facts sequence really is close as i could as economies i thought you meant the focused and on any individual or any circumstances surrounding individual writer they do not and the totality of their context

understand that question and i really do you understand what i'm saying to you is not a criticism of you now any implication criticism rather instead you have presented sequential recent version and i'm trying to convert it into an organized research asia twenty categories and equality in scope of the information that you possess so believe me i'm not trying to attack or testimony going to organize our own purposes there's one other thing i'd like to say and that may or may not be possible to do this again i'm not being critical of us a witness as i said just a moment ago i think he'd bend over a model is right i used to practice law used to our long term construct a witness to forced to answer the question and then to explain so i hope i can keep my questions brief entitled he might propose your answer yes or no if that's possible and then whatever explanation which that is not meant to be an entrapment is not to use of the year why

question to answer yes or no but it is meant to try to eventually eventually cause under the heading up what did the president know and when did you know i fall several subdivisions the first one is the breaking and that the democratic national committee headquarters in the watergate complex on the morning of june seventeenth nineteen seventy two you know what the president knew that i do not yet been information that he didn't know i only know that i learned out on my work and the office that opens that occurred that indicated it caused the key biscayne to washington mr strong to

destroy incriminating documents in the possession of harlem the question is i don't know impossibly narrow what you're just really touches many people it touches mr erlichman mr polman mr golson mr mitchell mr bean and many others and trying to focus on the present and what did the president know and when did you know for you to say that based on direct knowledge or circumstantial information and you've given us an indication circumstances or even the first thing you tell us whether or not you can share any further light on whether the president knew or in the parlance of port all the watergate complex in nineteen seventy anybody have i cannot have any firsthand knowledge of that

i can only testify as to the fact that anything that <unk> attention of important says was general counsel to the president and that mr holman have advance knowledge or grizzly bears indications are not so open category to our station that is that as an entrance that you do draw on the arrangements of the organization of the white house and your knowledge of the relationships but the relationship between mr of mr haldeman and the pressure that is correct but it does not fall into a category one or three which is a direct knowledge workers say information another part that is correct but there's another city

and racism while so many things and so many people over such a span of time and it's difficult really lays of them single category but i'd like to try what did the president know and when did you know it i understand that your testimony with us for the sake of clarity and understanding an organization of this record tell me were you based on your personal knowledge based on circumstantial evidence is almost even understood that the president knew and when he first knew it i would have and that would be when i had a meeting on september when we discussed what

was very clear to me in terms of cover up now we've discussed in terms of the lane lawsuits compliments to me on and my efforts that point i discuss the time trials because you can walk into a critical of the election that was a conversation about that order to avoid that in september fifteenth that produce seventeenth time that led to countless occasions information i was aware that i took notes i know that the daily with the president i was quite aware that this was one of the most important and really the only issue that was really developing i

am it was right i have no idea if i understand correctly you say that baseball an inference drawn from her knowledge of the white house or organization and relationships you surmise the president knew of the situation from seventy until september fifteenth in some degree but i'm sure that's the best releases put out it must've been

anybody have done anything but once again simply searching for an organizational john preaches on the information i don't mean to say the quality of names but the quality of a lot of direct information circumstantial information present and printer conclusion based on a ballad set of circumstances it europe situation of the white house or is it you're playing yeah so you've been very helpful in that respect

that means general restated and from the very first moments after the or again on june seventeenth nineteen seventy two and based on a number of factors including the fact that press releases issued from police are key biscayne at work are based on your knowledge and understanding of the westernization and the relationship with the mistrial on the president you draw and friends that the president is something between june seventeenth in september of fifty if any of this and that trying to construct an edifice that will end up defending the president stated before it is not what it was but only for the purpose of establishing the audience go

in any event your arsenal he means the most to you something between june seventeenth of september fifteenth is based on categories to have is circumstantial evidence and entrances based on your knowledge of relationships american jewish occurred over the weekend i don't make money or tuesday when i write my first meeting with him i would eat victims than initially because went right to make two other authors i understand your concern and i think it was an understandable concern but what i'm struggling to establish is whether that concern was based on something other than what you just said

june seventeen nineteen thirty nine those things those are that's the basis of my monitor that when we were putting category three that is hearsay information or documentary evidence not present and seventy five of life on the state of the president's knowledge then the parish and seventeen september fifteenth nineteen seventy two yet scientists have been about a month convenient committee in which the president was very anxious to help counter actions against the sense that we're becoming a problem

investigation being pursued through discovery of procedures usually headlines are being made because as the test because the investigation by the justice and the fbi was winding down this was the eighties of course exhibits it's been submitted to the committee recalls american your castle that exhibit number of zillow is that

it's because but the peaks because blank number seven you have a job for you the pumpkin the exhibit is at a preliminary memorandum prepared by mr parkinson of my request asking the senate when i had a request made me following conversations that memorandum of insanity

and the president what was church which indicates that might have been in the white house considers that you directed by mr holman we're going over measure we have the signs of a course i have exhibit number seventeen the first page of which is entitled counter actions dated september eleventh nineteen seventy two consisting of four pages side by kenneth well wells are concerned that letter on white house stationery dated september twelfth nineteen seventy two the first line of which reads administratively confidential that is correct all right now this is additional information on bearing on the president's knowledge of the cover up on september seventeenth ansari from june seventeenth september fifteenth

nineteen seventy two archer it consists of some eight or ten pages we can read it if you like it would be much easier to point out those actions which are relevant to the state of the president's not as liz b and it was that was going out of the second half of the exhibit which is the white house and the allegations made fall under the heading to minimal the millions of orders corrections this was an action to be filed by the committee for the reelection of

the president and the finance committee against mr o'brien alleging that they were violating the rights their wages of discovery and civil service and it's a possessive and this was what was the disposition of discrimination and second inning to that position members of billionaires while chairman of the dnc certain sexual activities of employees of the dmz fisher cousin sal about those being deposed out like that's something that up shortly outside of the pilots at

the reelection committee where those allegations made now there were not that into the deposition discovery discovery area where those areas covered and discovery after the filing melissa i have no matter whether we're not going to this is rick always open earlier indicated there had been a longstanding interest in his true of rhymes from the documents that i've submitted and documents six seven eight i mean is this morning i need it in a discussion about a casual discussion we were talking about who is likely to be mr mcgovern senator

mcgovern's campaign manager and there was speculation it was going to be mr o'brien mr pollan i'm telling me that they certainly hope it would be because we got some really good information on him and that the ad is referring to tax information that i'm referring to what your tax information that's correct when he said that it was sometime after mr obama's mcgovern had been nominated and before he had made its final selection for his campaign manager in the early fall of nineteen seventy september reform the second

part of a picture people say that the fed's over banned capital kiev there were check marks and as a white house designation of the document was seen or no not the president you know now the second half of that memorandum isn't idle complaint reliable stands for social divide that may well that was eight imagine being requested the occurrence that before an amended complaint had been followed district court that the amended complaint which carter mr stands out that funded the watergate incident we have in the complaint

the village he and reelection committee lawyers were using the processes in that matter was that yes it was the reelection committee lawyers happy developers court yes i think we take really a great deal more time that we ought to try to go through each item but let me re but right now the importance of this moment chad's any further why are implies any other information about an extended family of the president's

knowledge and cover a post june seventeenth nineteen seventy two i understand before you answer that so far he suggested that the president saying in a brewing this memorandum which deals with a series of civil suits in certain action other actions to be taken implies that there was at least a bit counter action can now buy pirated place but in retrospect does this give us further insight into the present they cover up off the watergate break well i don't i'm not sure i understand it that these senators definition of cover up as laid out in my testimony we have a couple of loose something that had a broader range anything that might cause any problem at all you know

but in this document gives us any other insider information about the president's knowledge of any post june seventeenth nineteen seventy two about the apparent effort to conceal the connection with responsibility for the unlawful entry into the democratic national headquarters of the watergate complex on the morning of june seventeenth nineteen seventy two well i can only surmise what i was told when asked for the document was on set at the question to people with a document that it is it is it fair to say and i mean i really am not drunk but work together to digest this information now fair to say there are the documentary about seventy and again some

knowledge purpose by the president of an effort to counter measures in terms of the total impact of watergate it countersued its allegations the misuse of a discovery process things of that sort was the actions that he conceded he asked that he's used to it mike thanks speculation

so that was the suits that would not be a problem or so if i understand what you're saying now while these documents do not bear on the isolated issue of the president's knowledge of the watergate and what i call cover up all the watergate post june seventeen they'd lose yet some light on at least a willingness to commence counter actions to avoid other crying under the situation is that what other documentary evidence gives us an insider information about the state of the president's knowledge of watergate and the date on which he acquired i were talking about now we are still working on june seventeenth september you know

is there any other circumstantial evidence you alluded to the organization in the relationship to provide us was there any other circumstance that would give us other insider is there any category three information that isn't there anything anyone still do that would shed light on what the president knew and when they knew it in this timeframe june june seventeenth centuries and send a message to the president is meeting with the new report and then see an actor that this was always rather startling to me that hurt my report was more important than mr evans was

sold the unusual nature of that arrangements circumstance lead you to believe that there was a time now it all the subject matter's attendant to the watergate affair by the great battle is that this cover up or consumed a great amount of time and that when they were spending a great deal of time in discussion with me now with discussions and that this was probably be the major thing that was occurring is there anything else now because i want to move on to the september meeting is there anything else in either of the three categories festival other evidence circumstantial evidence and bridges and here say is there anything else that you can think of the mama and if you think of something like that will certainly think of at the moment that would give

us further insight into what the president knew and when he knew it and as we understand it september fifteen and there's been cover a great line that would you know it long enough to scranton as much detail as you can conjure up the meeting on september fifteen situation i'm going to the meeting on september fifteen and

that much information and it was again the credibility of your testimony but the quality of the other services that evidence or seven shores of circumstantial evidence related to the september meeting so take a little time the morning of the fifteenth of the indictments have been handed down i think there was a journalist so i really had at the white house i had no idea that that was because of a woman was quite aware of the fact that i had a great deal of time and it's been revealed time spent a great deal of time on this matter the question i guess

the seventies religion and the issue faced the president on the left hand setting an important conversation and president asked me to come and then i stood there is now my set on the chair on the other side and joe wright and he is the one where you says no ms barrett that's

right there was that that he had been made aware of my hand lane of the various aspects of the of the watergate case and the fact that the case to the indictment now been handed down no and the white house have been indicted and it stopped in libya as one said let's examine those particular words huge percent that no one in the white house have been indicted is that it's near the exact line i don't know about the indictments have been handed down and it was quite

obvious that no one in the white house have been indicted and it down what did he say that he's eighteen now and he was aware of that as the indictments in an explosion what to me was a letter to the fact that didn't stop mr liddy well unless they told me i had done a good job of a pleasure expressed sense that mr libby can you just for the purpose of our mission the pleasure that didn't stop there is an invention of mind based on yesterday the impression i had read

can you give us any information yes that the breakthrough in my mind because i recall my response to that was that i didn't feel that i could make that i thought the others had done much more difficult things and ms ba ba fb