Five College Forum; Panel Discussion on "What Does the Campus Upheaval Mean"
What does the campus up people mean. Today's five college forum taking part all from the University of Massachusetts Milton Mayer of the English department Jeremiah Allen associate provost Louis Mainzer assistant dean of the graduate school Alvin winder of the School of Nursing and Robert Stanfield of the sociology department. Milton Maier begins.
I'd like to suggest that as a possible text for this discussion the words of John Locke in his second treatise of civil government.
When people are miserable enough they will rebel cry up the Divine Right of Kings how you will.
It would begin to appear that some people on the campuses of the United States and of a great many other advanced countries are miserable and are in rebellion in Manilla minority to be sure. One place a small minority another place a larger one. But then there are all revolutions are minority revolutions. Our American Revolution was according to John Adams. We know that the French Revolution was in the spring of 1917 there were only 200000 Bolsheviks in what was then Russia now. And the terroristic the common characteristic of all of these revolutions is drawn on a more epic canvas was that they succeeded to the extent that they did in considerable measure because the. Most of the rest of the populace was indifferent to preventing revolution.
Gentlemen are there any ground for revolution by a generation in the world today. In countries like our own and other out other than our own.
And your very or any remedy for the misery short of confrontation to the death.
Well I suppose there's misery enough to produce a revolution.
As far as I can see one is in their misery. What's peculiar perhaps on on American universities is the extent to which we're seeing it today and we keep comparing today to the days a decade ago. Well more than a decade 15 years ago when I was in college I was part of the Silent Generation. I didn't have very much to say. Does that mean that the college life in those days was a delicacy. I think far from it I seem to recall misery. But it was a misery that I suffered in silence. And I guess that for some reason the other some students today have chosen not to suffer through it in silence.
That was Robert Stanfield. Well wondered.
Well I think that maybe the exchange between the silent generation and the generation today as far as their dissatisfaction and their articulation of their dissatisfaction came about possibly with the big change in music.
The change in dance the change in dress patterns that you know well began to develop five seven years ago. I think these things have accumulative effect accumulative effect because the development of the mass media especially of the well of the phonograph record has been that. And secondly TV has been that in effect the words of these songs that change in the music the mode of dress communicated itself throughout all. All youth of high school at age in the country. I think this is the generation that has in a sense been able to articulate a revolutionary attitude now. Why possibly did the change in music the change in dress styles to bring this about why did this occur. I think because possibly in the last 10 years there has been a combination of three events. One the recognition of the hydrogen bomb and the fact that all life can be destroyed. Date seven or eight years ago in a Bob Dylan song the Eve of Destruction which at that time was that without problem was most popular with the youth. Secondly I think the fact that there is a growing recognition that there is some type of economic revolution that there's a possibility that. They just won't be jobs in the future that everything may be done by machines. I think this bothers youthen this is become they become aware of this over the past several years. Thirdly of course the great revolution in civil rights which is swept Africa Asia and this country too and which has contributed through their initial interest and activity in snack and other organisations to give them a perspective on both injustice suffering and the need for a new Equality for man rather means or why.
All over the advanced world east Japan as well as West. This revolution.
Well listen don't make me too much a wise man by asking me why all over the world but he coped with the question about as my colleagues did to begin with. Locke may be wrong. I don't know that misery makes revolutions think hopes and hope makes revolutions often as not as a general notion among historians I gather among those returned if you don't number myself that when things aren't quite as bad as they were then watch out for revolution and I think there's some some point to that. I think that let me say there are two things wrong in America which may have effect elsewhere they don't press the too far that of the miseries. The first is the Vietnamese War. The students along with their faculty brothers and my Dad recognized this pretty early earlier probably than Fulbright and others. And he he had the means war is of general moral concern to students and also the draft is a very direct concern to students and it brings the moral issue with the physical dangers right to them. So I don't know that things will go away if we solve Vietnam but I'd sure like to see it happen and see if it helps. And the second question of course is race and there are the the young. The state of race relations in America especially to young people who haven't seen the difference. I lived in Washington before the 1954 Supreme Court decision. I see a difference. If you came on the scene after 954 whatever is good you take for granted whatever is bad is glaring is intolerable. So those are the miseries the hopes. I don't mean to be dogmatic about this. I may well be wrong in everything I say but the kinds of hopes that I see are the hopes for equalitarian ism. We see this on campus Saturday and I heard some students quizzing our president and they want to know about democracy in the university. Our president was kind enough not to say that if everybody had a vote the students would run the university. They'd win sixteen thousand five hundred to about a thousand. For some reason faculty and others are concerned about whether democracy is the way you want a university but the ideal of equality Tarion ism seems very strong in perhaps a naive and unsophisticated way but as an ideal It obviously has very real roots in any democratic society. World peace that relates to Vietnam and in a broader way. Again I think somewhat naively I may be wrong. Students do have the attitude often enough that if there were the will then peace could come to the world. You can argue the case you can look for occasional happy periods in Romans or others brought peace. But there's a fair amount of world history that's discouraging on this I know my faculty colleagues and all agree with me on this. We political scientists tend to be a little dismal in this respect love. Listening to the students. Even the the bitterest students. They often are damning us for failing to live up to the. System of love as the force is the binding relationship among all people. And this is a natural and a good goal that obviously has Christian and other roots. Whether it can in fact be put into force I don't know if it asks a lot. A manifestation that love is I suppose brotherhood among blacks and whites which also we see as a form of equal chance one could you know X expand on those and then perhaps just to tie the two together out of the civil rights movement and fostered by the Vietnamese War. The demonstration the manifestation as the way in which you act politically comes into being and in the name of the ideals we get demonstration I don't want to sound too pat.
I don't have the answers Mark Trail and I'm left with a couple of questions here. One of the generational revolutions going on in societies in which neither Vietnam nor race plays a role. In France Japan Italy Spain elsewhere and the other question I'm left with is what love has to do with the higher learning in America.
You want to kill them both.
Well I'm not sure that I can take on those two questions. I must confess them. I don't know all the answers or of an adequate answer logically to the present phenomenon of student revolt. There are lots of causes suggested. I think it was to Mary you made the point I was about to make that many of these are. We think of as local a draft of the time and so forth yet the phenomenon is international. Other European countries for example are experiencing very much the same thing.
Alan you mentioned the job they fear of no jobs II. I would have put back the other way around. When I went to start in college we were still sort of in the shadow of the Depression and the fear of no job or the lack of certainty of getting a job a good job.
I was certainly one of us. Much more I think than today's generation of students who as far as I can observe tend to take it for granted that they will have a job though they may not like it. It may be in plastics and they may be suffering from me graduate syndrome but I can't see it there. The bottom is another interesting point. I was going to make a comment about that.
It seems to me we don't hear much at least among adult discussions or super adults like I was. There was a lot written and said about the bomb. Well back in the late 40s we don't hear so much about it. Perhaps it bothers the students so after all our students were born after the atomic bomb.
Maybe we've learned to live with it and they haven't yet they haven't had to hire you know friends.
There is this consideration I'm I'm hung up I believe in on the on the notion that this is a it's a revolution it's a world revolution and if so we may be being a little program in show and in talking about the situation on our campuses and the local conditions that appear to give rise to it. But the fact is that in the United States of America some 51 percent of the eligible young people in the country are in college we sometimes call colleges universities. And in the rest of the world it's nothing like that in England it's 12 percent in most of the rest of the West. It's closer to 5 percent. This is a fact that many related self to our mind are just suggestion that students are worried about jobs. I suppose that an awful lot of these young people are in college because of the advanced technological society has no place other than college to put them. It doesn't need them except possibly in Vietnam where they don't want to go. And so they are housed here in the colleges and universities until possibly it the society can use them and they may have then a false sense of alienation by virtue of that fact alone resists make any sense to any of them.
Well let me suggest that I'm not being entirely convinced no. You know people have suggested different kinds of student culture and the idea is of some persuasiveness to me if there is a sort of vocational culture. It would mean that students who probably a first generation college students are coming out of public schools almost every case going to college work hard because they do want to get ahead and they want jobs. And this is the way ahead and if anything we professors have a good many years complained that the students had a rather routine attitude toward college. They wanted jobs and the growth of schools of business administration schools of engineering or the like probably testify to this whereas the leaders of student Bunyan's often seem to be in the studies I've seen evidence this out of families with substantial education and income intellectual background. When you catch the kids you tilt over who's Carson such an ass and what is that he do. It turns out he's got a college degree. Those students very likely having a kind of intellectual bent can if they want foresee careers in universities they are not going to be punching buttons or be unemployed I suspect so that they want to have the most vocational concerned probably not being political activists and want to be political activists probably have the least locational concern. It may begin to be too dogmatic he said offering.
Well vocational concern I wonder it seems that this vocational concern in a sense may simply mirror what exists on campus as that is what exists in American higher education you have the academics and you have the service the technical people the service people be the academics being predominately will say the liberal arts people the service people being the Schools of Education Business Administration engineering etc.. I think that I wonder if factually the fact that students do in overwhelming numbers say that they wish to get a vocation when they get out of college that this is why they're coming to college doesn't simply reflect the tremendously important service orientation in American higher education the fact that the academics have pretty well been in the background of this debate almost since the turn of the century I would say.
Over the past 20 years I taught for 20 years in a college of engineering and I noticed over that rather long span a great drop in the vocational orientation of the students. This was not a distinction between students in arts and sciences and students in a professional school.
It was simply a phenomenon that that happened and I observed that others observed it. We commented on it. We speculated about the cause as hard.
Possibly the the final withering away of the old attitudes that I think generated back in the Depression real the real fear of not having a job.
One of the phenomena that we notice among today's student generation and or those close to them is a great many of them have been able affectively to drop out of society. In today's society you really don't need a job for the primary purpose of keeping alive.
There was a real terror of losing a job in the thirties. Because you could start by a family.
Brother Stanfield and I want to know if there is something radically wrong in the world that despairs of reform and conducive to revolution.
Eggs and whether there's something radically wrong in the American education in the institutions that administer it that likewise despairs of reform and conducive to revolution.
It's a mouthful for you.
You know those questions take us back over what's been said on the last few minutes. It gets to an earlier point as to when the international aspects of. The student rebellion or the student revolt. My feeling would be first of all that the student rebellion or student revolt is possibly a new phenomenon on American campuses but it's not new elsewhere in the world. If I personalize it again I'd suggest the 15 years ago when I was an undergraduate one of the questions that was raised was why students on in colleges and universities in Europe in Japan were active politically active while we remained relatively passive.
What I think we've seen here is it is a kind of an introduction of political concern here in the 1960s among the students and we might have to ask what it was. In the American experience that accounted for the radicalization of some part of the the student population in America I think maybe Lou Mainzer had a point there with this business about hope. If I look back over the past decade I'd say that. Hope came in with misery during the Kennedy years. And I don't know whether it really came in during the Kennedy years I think maybe it's the afterglow of the Kennedy years it's a it's a Kennedy mystique. But it has tremendous Camelot qualities to it. The notion of the new frontier the Peace Corps or Vista. A number of these other things the idea that the that the intellectuals of America the academics of America the educated people of America would be called upon somewhat more by government than they ever seem to be called upon before that rather than being a business man's government it would be a professor's government. This was something that was suggested in the Kennedy years. And then there was also on this appeal to youth with a new frontier with Vista and the Peace Corps. So the Kennedy years produced hope and after that hope and been opened up the years that followed critically with the Vietnam War. This sort of dampened that hope and I think this is the thing which produced this political change.
The American students and I get the impression from Professor Mainzer that there's hope of which you speak was not economic hope.
It is not the economically underprivileged who are turned off or alienated and revolutionary in this country on the campuses that is except for the negroes. And they among Negroes are not the economically underprivileged negroes.
Yeah. And let me add to home.
Without being too sure it's a worldwide phenomenon but I have that sense of age and it's hard to say this in a period when some countries are rather roughly governed. But it does seem to be a substantial dissolution of authority. One senses that you never ride places in America. Again the revolutionary youngsters are likely to come from permissive families and permissive child bringing up is pretty common among educated people in America. Kings think about kings. You know we're living in a day without a decent king Ottley this nice Belgian fellow who doesn't you know he talks of 15 minutes a peasant next and then they send him away and get down to business with a prime minister who's elected authority isn't what it used to be whether you're talking about American family. Certainly not any American University the quotes the other day told me you can't throw a kid out without fancy a procedure. It may be that world wide authority is having a rough time. I know right I think we all want to sleep there but go ahead.
Very well I thought about permissiveness as a cause and I think it is a very attractive explanation as long as you keep your focus on America. But again the fact of the worldwide character the great similarities despite differences. What's going on you know what went on in France and what's going on here. Seem to me to want to weaken that. There's a logical explanation.
You know France I would say was one of the least permissiveness societies that I that I know of in what we will generally what we refer to as the Western world whereas Czechoslovakia which is the society I know best. I was one of the most permissive of those societies in the western world. Both of them finding themselves in under quite radically different circumstances when confronted with the student revolutions the Czechs were quite happy to be confronted by their student revolution which was the backbone of the liberalization there a year ago. And of course the French a great deal less happy.
I would feel that it's not the permissiveness in childrearing. For instance the whole idea that too many middle class parents read Dr Spock twenty years ago and nothing nothing like that. I see however though that there is at least in Western the Western world and maybe further a continuing breakdown of sources of wisdom and I think this is this is where maybe the the fault or the impetus lies the church. As religion the family social class that these sources of wisdom no longer are credible in the eyes of youth.
And I think this is happening certainly throughout the Western world and maybe further and that in this sense in this sense it's not a permission to go ahead and revolt against authority but a disillusionment with authority that somehow or other these conventional authorities no longer can be seen as guides or as far as ways of life by young people.
QUESTION Well winder to you in room Mainzer don't we have to square the breakdown of authority you're talking about with the rise of authoritarianism.
Yes I would.
I would agree with that absolutely because what you seem to be saying at least in this country is that the as as so as the traditional centers of authority no longer become to use their term relevant to the problems of youth today and tomorrow that the traditional centers of authority seem to become more authoritarian that is they view they view you questions about relevance not as questions of relevance but as a crisis of authority and I would say this happens on university campuses but I think this happens politically too in other parts of the world. A crisis in authority develops when you get a tendency for more rigid rather than flexible use of authority.
Well you know I might add that I wasn't trying to emphasise solely childrearing and I started with kings I think of Walter Lippmann as telling phrase the acid's of modernity have eroded the sources of authority something close to that. Don't quote me. Now it's true you find authoritarianism but it may be that it's filling gaps where a feudal systems monarchies or other systems have deteriorated sometimes after a bloody war to establish Taurani. I don't I don't know that there is an inconsistency between some of the very harsh forms of authority that we've seen established and notion that perhaps in general for example the notion of traditional inherited authority is very hard to sell to people. We worry at the moment apparently about the Electoral College because people are afraid that someone may not believe that Nixon was elected or the next man was elected if he doesn't have a system that's very convincing. This concern with establishing the digital Missi of authority in the case you know we all used to talk about Spain at least the older members of this generation you know now they're worried in Spain about how to pass our authority here in Portugal.
You can make the case again if you don't press your luck too far Spencer friends on the campus of the University of Massachusetts institution with all of your eggs in one ornament.
Recently a hundred fifty or two hundred students demonstrated against the presence of the representative of the DOL chemical company who was recruiting students for jobs and some 30 of them. As I understand it liberated the administration building of the University of the university having not more than half a dozen campus police available to restore or maintain order found itself calling the state police and so on and so on. This is a commonplace characteristic incident. Should the doll chemical company be on the campuses of universities should there be job placement officers in universities. Should there be non educational operations of any kind in a university and if they were all thrown out of the institution would the students be happy rather than miserable.
Jerry Allen Well the obvious answer to the last question is that the students. Probably would not. I don't say it would be measurable but I don't think they would be particularly overjoyed if this particular service were discontinued. On this particular campus it was only I think two nights before perhaps even the night before the demonstration that the undergraduate student senate which is purportedly a representative body voted 45 to one with I think three perhaps only two abstentions to have a policy of open recruiting on the campus.
I might have as a footnote I don't. I was there all day and what more I don't think the building was particularly deliberate and I was hardly even more than a token occupation.
As to whether a university should have these so-called non academic activities.
Going on when it's on it's real estate. That I think is a very difficult question to answer. I could go on for the rest of the time and considerably more than that.
Maybe we should I wonder though at this point whether when the student senate voted forty nine to one to continue on 45 to 1 to continue the job recruitment in the universities premises whether the university in the name of higher education should not have resisted the students at that point and have said job recruitment has nothing to do with the higher learning.
Well Larry I think where you were only one run into a problem of definition of the word and the word is university.
What is or who is the university. Actually I thought demonstration and this was a matter of concern to some people. I discussed it during and after the demonstration. We had a group of at most 100 to 150 students and a student body of some 16000 then on the wards about 1 percent and that I think is a generous estimate. Coming to one small and not so powerful component as some would think namely the administration and asking the administration to take unilaterally an action which was contrary to the expressed will of the majority and which would have been in fact abolished a practice which had grown up over a long period of time.
Whether the university should ever have engaged in this kind of practice is of course another question but whether the university who the university is room could write at that point say we change the policy. I just don't see how it could be done. Perhaps the trustees Goodlife tell very much that they won.
Well I think I would differ maybe with Jerry on what the university is in who it is.
I think a person saying what it is I know what hotkey I'm that they're saying you know that what I was saying by implication is that many people tend to equate the university with the administration.
Yes and this I do not think that is all because I don't think that either I think that essentially the university is the faculty and that the power in the university resides within the faculty rather than the administration and that there is a mistaken I think perception and I think sometimes they are the students share that seeing the administration rather than the faculty as as the where the power resides but I think more important that where the university is.
Where universities are I think in this country today essentially are in the model of what Clocker called the most diversity. That is a basically a giant service organization which was caricatured in character by Robin Maynard HUTCHENS When he said essentially the most diverse city is a place where we will teach anything that you will pay us for but that specifically specifically that the most diversity is a service organization preponderate preponderantly. And that for this reason since one of the in a sense customers and the students say this but I think it's one of the customers in terms of government contracts of the universities generally are such organisations as Dow Chemical in a sense. Service to the student and to Dow Chemical both therefore can be seen as a service that the university could offer. But I think it's this concept of service rather than the academic concept of education that that maybe is at the crux of the matter here.
We will not only teach anything you pay as to teach we will research anything you pay us to research.
It says here friends in fine print that two thirds of all university research in the United States is now financed by three war related agencies of the federal government and one institution of higher learning which I hope will be nameless now and forever more. Eighty percent of all its research is financed by the federal government.
You may recall that in an historic anti-trust case many years ago the court held that a control of 6 percent of the production of one essential ingredient of all automobiles represented a monopoly in the field.
If 6 percent does I dare say that 66 percent does also.
Let me say I don't think the university should be nameless I think its name is Legion. I doubt that there are I think a great many universities where more than 80 percent perhaps of the research on total research are sponsored by the federal government. That simply is the place where the money is. This does not mean that all that research is war related. Much of it is not. And on occasion congressmen have protested this.
May I come to the defense you take for granted a faith a remarkable institution that's developed in the United States. It started in the immediate post-war period with the Office of Naval Research which continued a level of research which had originally been done during what is one alternative during what was to bring all the scientists into the government make them government employees and have them do the wartime research. It's too late now at least for those of us who were around during World War Two to argue whether we should have been in the war and should have given effort to do it in such. Let's say that we were all patriots then. So the scientists come off neither better nor worse than the rest of us. All in our achieved what you take for granted and you're old enough that you shouldn't. It gave money without buying souls which nobody thought it could do. Among certain groups at least now of course nothing's perfect and if you look you can find souls that have been bought or in fact given free of charge. But I'm quite impressed with the ability of the federal government to finance research without destroying freedom. And if the federal government isn't going to do it then you've got to ask about state legislatures you gotta ask about private donors and you ask Who has the money and it's all right for the kids to play this game without Nancy but if we're going to play it we're going to have an answer as to who supports things. There are many people concerned about state universities being supported by state legislators. I've heard the students contend the state legislature and then my answer is private universities have sold their souls for money to there isn't any scott free way perhaps but I'm fairly impressed with the federal government is done when it returns recruiting and be reactionary on this too. It would be hard to resist the image of a university as a small grove in which people gathered to talk and Amherst College down the road from us. To some extent achieves that and it's a lovely and admirable institution serving about 12 hundred students. If we're stuck with the notion as I am that a lot of students want to go to universities in America and that they are going to be served one because there's a real case for it too because all of our heads if they don't and the first is the better reason then you're going to create something other than a bunch of Amherst colleges and are probably going to be state universities in considerable measure. Now State University is full not only of recruiting but all sorts of things I won't name all the things that I regard on campus as rather tangential to a liberal education. The students. Pursue I think the student leaders the critics the activists the goal of purity purity in all things for university. That means talk about the most important matters and in fact some of the students who propose that for an individual that means purity in all relations I spoke before about relations of love. These are for some of these students at least as I listen to their talk in recent days. The only legitimate kind of relations among people true relations of love I think of Hoover I think of Marcel I-Thou presents things of this sort very admirable that moved me to. But whether that kind of purity. It is in fact the basis for organizing a society is a legitimate question and usually we organize a society according to a much less admirable principles but principles which I think may be necessary principles of hierarchy bureaucracy in personal relations Prudence courtesy often a contempt for courtesy among students is not pure frankness is pure hypocrisy is the mark of courtesy. I'm then going to take my stand with the prudentially contingent the imp. of this world rather than the purists who in the name of purity may lop off somebody's head some day.
A little strong.
I think it remains or that you're in favor of love but you don't see how we can organize society on its basis. Right.
I don't trust the people who start out to do so because they used to kill off those who don't love his purity possible after 30.
And I it wasn't possible in my case before thirty I'm working on it. Give me another 10 or 20 years on you know I'm doing.
Robert Stanfield you know sociologists I think are notoriously amoral. And I could give you my image of the American University in such a form that. Even though you people disagree with one another you'd end up feeling that I was speaking to each of you would feel I was speaking against your position. I think I'd borrow a phrase from Clarke curry. The term Al is already mentioned as term the Multiversity but Clark Ervin his book The uses of the university also made mention of the knowledge industry. This is a tremendously important notion to keep in mind regarding the university. If we look at the place of the university in society it is to be seen as part of an industry of the knowledge industry is turning out two kinds of products one knowledge in terms of what might be written in books particular technology particular kinds of hardware. The second product it's turning out is people to read those books and use that technology and work with that hardware. The students both of those things are to be seen as products. A university is something in our society which serves to allocate human resources. So people come into the University of the beginning of their college careers and they are processed and they're put through certain kinds of procedures in order to make them marketable. And furthermore when they leave the University and University imposes certain kinds of quality control standards so that it can indicate that the product is grade A grade B Grade C or otherwise and the buyer will be able to pick the grade product that he wants. Now just from the societal perspective this is a very very useful kind of thing. The society needs to have the knowledge produced and it has to have the people process and furthering of Mr. Merritt I think as you suggested earlier than that is another thing that the university serves to do and that is to hold on to this youth population for a number of years where they might cause havoc with the unemployment rate if they were thrown into the labor force. So. So there are certain kinds of social functions that the universities serve and this is the reason why they're subsidized. And this is the reason why society why taxpayers put in their money. For at universities. Why the federal government and why business firms make research grants to the university. Economics is the key of key to what's going on in the university.
Now some of the students are quite happy about the whole thing. Indeed I think the majority it's not only a vocational orientation it's another one the college is a fun place. It's a place where the collegiate culture thrives It's a place where people try to find that right balance between study and fun. And it's vocational and it's a place to study and get high grades and make your parents happy. But there is a small proportion of students who are upset about this matter of being processed being ignored having professors feel that their work consists of the stuff which is done in the office or in the laboratory after the chore of talking to the kids is over and they object to what they see as a dehumanization.
In this whole process of being put through the knowledge factory Why don't we clarify the situation friends by separating the college from the university and say that a college is a place where school teaching goes on and a university is a research institution and that students undergraduate students who are not preparing for precisely preparing for professional careers will go through the college at some point in their careers and those who are going to be researchers will go through the research institution. We would then be able possibly to eliminate the student complaint which I suppose we all of us feel is somewhat justified.
That having the instructors having to be an instructor having to teach is the price he has to pay for the free time he gets to do not only what he wants to do which is not teach but the only thing that gets him advancement.
Why try that for a start I have something out of something else I'd like to ask Jerry Allen about. Jerry you were once or a respectable school marm like the rest of us before you failed of being an administrator. What if a university and a state one university and a state university at that were to say to the world a university is not a juvenile detention home university is not an employment agency.
A playing field a military barracks or a cooking school or a university is an independent community of students and scholars and nothing that is non educational goes in that community and if you to the world don't want such an institution. All you have to do is to withdraw your support and we will fade away.
That's a nice question. My fall isn't complete I have an 8 o'clock class tomorrow morning.
The administrators always hold on to one class so no you help yourself and you have to teach in order to get salary for doing research are unnecessary.
No. Well I think the question is unanswerable because to take just one difficulty you said what if a university were to say well the point I tried to make earlier is that no one group even is the university. So who are university is not a person. It has no single voice. The faculty has no single voice. I attended the meeting of the faculty committee last night and we got off oddly enough on the subject of what was academic and what was not what was professional education what was liberal education for a while. No two persons on that committee all faculty members were able to agree on. It's a highly hypothetical question I suspect that the institution which if this could happen the institution that did that would continue to receive modest support. I know of one institution. In a state that shall be nameless which has lost all its utility was originally founded as I'm a utilitarian institution it continues to be supported as a kind of monument to a moribund metals mining industry.
Well what everybody wants to be great. Well every institution wants to be great wouldn't this be a way a good way for an institution to be great if we could somehow or other solve the problem of corporate anonymity. And figure out who the university is.
Maybe close the place for a couple of semesters while we did so and having found that out then proceed if we could obtain anything resembling unanimity or even majority rule and come up with something some announcement of the sort that I have suggested and leave it to the people of the Commonwealth to the state or to the nation to the benefactors not to do as they would to do as they will well us. But say this is our understanding of the only function. The only way in which we can serve serve the interests of the community.
Well I don't want to denigrate the the idea of what I think you're suggesting a community of scholars students and faculty both. Not even to say that it isn't possible I'm sure it is but I think that the academics are supposed to the technical service people in our universities today wouldn't be able to provide the faculty for that because they're predominately again not oriented towards a university or college community. There are into towards their professions so that if you're academic We hear a psychologist or historian or political scientist or sociologist tends to see himself as a member of his professional association. And I think this has bred a type of. Nihilo professionalism which excludes the type of community that you're thinking of that is the the Sociological Association of the Psychological Association is a sum of all the departments of sociology and psychology in the country.
And there is all kinds of a very gnarly professionally oriented research that goes on that one good or bad is not student related I think you'd have a hard time finding faculty if you want to choose them among the new Ph.D.s of the Ph.D. candidates in any of our academic professions.
Bob Stanfield I can get another tough one here. Students Some students are violating the law.
They're doing it in the name of one higher or lower law than another or another.
I wonder if there is such a thing as a law above the law of nations and of cities and of universities. And if so how we are to determine what it is. Some of these students are claimed to be and I believe indeed are moved by what they call conscience. Is it our business to enforce the law of nations upon them. And if we don't. Are we not condoning anarchy.
Well it seems to me that the sociology is the wrong person to put that question until I've got mine.
I've already told you you were a man before you were a sociologist.
I've already told you that sociologists are notoriously amoral and there is something about their concern with looking at society the way it is which makes it difficult for them to entertain notions of transcendent laws or or things of that sort of higher or more realities.
Having gotten above the age of 30 somewhere and in the past few years I've gotten a get a I've gotten a very very cynical view for instance of the law.
I think the essence of law is more reality it's force in the sense that the person who can impose his will and in large measure determines what the law is. Now very often the person who uses that force makes his appeal on the basis of the higher mortality. But nevertheless what really makes that higher morality stick eventually is his power to to back up he is decisions his commitments and his ideas that is the force and power.
I think that the appeal to higher mortality is something that's available to each side.
And I don't feel competent to tell which one of the sides is more accurate and perceiving a basis and hire more who does if not you.
Well I suppose if you're going to put it to me just as a man who knew what he wanted to me as a sociologist and removed from the question why would you be a man.
We're going to let me be a man then I'll plead agnosticism again here. I think maybe you let me put it this way. Or or my feeling about this. I think that what happens on American colleges and universities produces a considerable amount of soul searching in people. I think possibly this is one of the one of the plus factors about what's happening on the colleges and universities that is that people are being challenged on this. I think possibly there's a good deal of hostility in America toward what's happening in the colleges because people are beginning to to be uncertain of what they felt they were certain about. I think that my own view of what more reality would be is changing as a consequence of what I see.
I'm not at all unsympathetic to natural law or notions but I think they've been gravely abused by a rather naive and passionate young people. There's a great tradition in natural law even though most of my colleagues reject it and it's impossible in a minute even to define the problem much less a solution to that. I would say though that one thing that has struck me about students and not just the leaders the leaders. Find two sources of support that is when it suits them the activists they all refer to democracy. But on the other hand it's precisely the activists student leaders who systematically plant contempt for the student senate and they claim quite explicitly that they act on the basis of the good rather than the majority so when democracy comes out on the wrong side then they're quite ready to chuck it in the name of higher purpose or hire more. But what strikes me is that the relatively passive and gentlemanly and really rather sweet young people nevertheless have a radically anarchic attitude. It shocks me to the core. I don't mean that I'm worried that they're going around breaking windows but they do have a highly consensual notion of law that unless they have consented to and approve of the particular law it is not law it has no binding force. I might add for the record that I disagree quite heartily from the start feel that the essence of was force. I think that a community built simply on force would be quite untenable. The essence of law is probably consent.
That's what you would like I'm telling you what do you know I'm saying what is but I don't want to know since the law was long.
Oh no no I didn't know known.
Well as a matter of fact I think that the students have come up with a not a new idea but a radical idea for this century and that is that if you speak about law and power and its relationship with a source of power lies not in a hierarchy of an administrator or a president or an executive and then the people beneath him but rather lies within a community of people coming together. Now this may be the anarchistic point that you're making but that when a community of people come together without a hierarchy there exists therefore a means of living and that this living is based upon some type of a consensual relationship that is not possible within the hierarchy the same people who use force the love of community the love of love a love of peace.
And at the same time for us some paradoxes gentleman.
We are in a quintet of old straights sitting around this table and I'm the oldest straight in the crowd Lou Mainzer said that he was occasionally shocked by some of these campus capers.
I suspect at least in my own case possibly in yours and in that of all of our colleagues across the country we are the revolutionize Aziz and the characteristic reaction of revolutionize these is always indignation. We think that we know something and we seem to being being told that we don't. Thank you very much.
What does the campus up to me. Today's a five college forum with Milton mayor of the English department Jeremiah Allen associate provost Louis Mainzer assistant dean of the graduate school Alvin winder of the School of Nursing and Robert Stanfield of the Sociology Department all at the University of Massachusetts. Five colleagues for a dime for a candid conversation about a variety of issues ideas and events is a production of WFC are five College Radio in Amherst Massachusetts.
This transcript is machine-generated and has not been corrected. It is likely there will be errors.
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- Panel discussion on student revolutions featuring five University of Massachusetts professors: Milton Mayer, of the English Department; Jeremiah Allen, Associate Provost; Lewis Mainzer, Assistant Dean of the Graduate School; Alvin Winder, of the School of Nursing; and Robert Stanfield, of the Sociology Department. They discuss generational revolution, cultural changes, international student protests, and the role of the university in society. Also touching on issues like racial inequality, the atomic bomb, jobs, and Vietnam, the professors discuss if the egalitarian goals of the student revolutionaries are naive and the role of love in student revolutionaries. Providing insight into student radicals, this discussion provides a different perspective from an older generation living through the 1960s. Five College Forum is a show featuring speeches and in-depth conversations between faculty from the Five Colleges about social issues.
- Five College Forum is a show featuring speeches and in-depth conversations between faculty from the Five Colleges about social issues.
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Panelist: Mayer, Milton, 1908-1986
Panelist: Allen, Jeremiah
Panelist: Mainzer, Lewis C. (Lewis Casper), 1928-
Panelist: Winder, Alvin E.
Panelist: Stanfield, Robert L. (Robert Lorne), 1914-2003
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Identifier: 235.07 (SCUA)
Format: 1/4 inch audio tape
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- Chicago: “Five College Forum; Panel Discussion on "What Does the Campus Upheaval Mean",” 1969-02-25, New England Public Radio, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (WGBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed February 21, 2019, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip_305-56zw3x5p.
- MLA: “Five College Forum; Panel Discussion on "What Does the Campus Upheaval Mean".” 1969-02-25. New England Public Radio, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (WGBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. February 21, 2019. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip_305-56zw3x5p>.
- APA: Five College Forum; Panel Discussion on "What Does the Campus Upheaval Mean". Boston, MA: New England Public Radio, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (WGBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip_305-56zw3x5p