American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Raymond Arsenault, 3 of 5

zoo and they were all it because we're going to get this on you know talk about your source of thousands of saying won't you know new book indian ocean jutting of color finally gets to his hotel room in new orleans the freedom riders are safe he calls and justice party in washington he tells him it's over but for the freedom rides over three hundred women right jason here is symbolic office on the bus god save our calls and justice party you tell them that sort of rewrite is finally over president kennedy can go off to the summit meeting in vienna with a clear conscience not worried about the headlines the charter to observe all over the damaged try to do that again

judge zagel are called washington to call the justice department because of the freedom ride is over finally see jesse lawler calls washington a call you don't know i don't know john sigg of our calls are just our own washington he tells him it's over the freedom ride is over president kennedy and often beata the summit meeting with a clear conscience not worried about the headlines said that where there's a slave is that he thinks he's that he's done his job two hours later the phone rings who in the hell is diane nash it's ok to call from

just for me the question does appear that we're okay a chance at a dollar call the justice department in washington he tells them it's over the freedom ride is finally over president kennedy can go off to vienna to the summit meeting with a clear conscience he doesn't have to worry about the other headlines see a volatile to sleep two hours later the phone rings it's the justices are recalling that who in the hell is diane nash someone asked that we get the narrative this can raise your level of many of the rising budget last sermon the launch officer it really is that you know you're so

tricky for several years there's been a powerful student movement in nashville center around not about workshops led by reverend jim lawson the national students were committed they were well organized they're well trained and they were victorious they be brought down jim crow in much of downtown nashville and they weren't thirsting for more for more challenges they had a sense of themselves a sense of of the power of nonviolence and when the original freedom ride and seemed to fail they were ready to step in and to take over thank you the national students were they were veterans of the moment they knew what it meant to get arrested to spend time in jail they were scared of jail they embraced it they they came armed with a philosophy of non violence they were trained by

jim lawson they knew the dangers but they they they knew what they had to do to push the moment forward i think that there's a bit more freedom riders is now is is now in the neighboring embassy the most of the freedom riders so in this region the nashville riders make their way back to birmingham now your two waves of riders there and once again they're trapped in the birmingham bus station but more than that they're now and all your mother carried interest is a religious organization and so she is also was also a the first group of nashville riders make it back to birmingham from the tennessee border there's a second wave of riders are national already

there's an idea that two groups of nashville riders stuck in the birmingham bus station this requires the kennedy administration everybody concerned to drive figure out how to get them out of there is no no no no became a hobby mr hoffman boy did it the first group of nashville riders make their way back to birmingham from the tennessee border they discover they already knew was a very opaque darker than where i live the nashville

riders the nashville riders they get back to birmingham not by high noon but by three o'clock and there's another wave of writer for national rd there tonight at two groups of nashville riders stuck in the birmingham bus station how leah to get them out whether all kinds of negotiations about the kennedy administration by the leaders of the movement trying to figure out how to get them out of there but no bust driver will take them to jimmy hoffa the leader of the teachers union has said none of my writers and i get on any of those buses greyhound can't find any drivers will who'll do it and so it's a it's a huge problem and they're they're stuck there for four hour for a long time well just the and so that's the end of it here

is the nashville riders made it back from tennessee border back to birmingham not by high noon a but by three o'clock and they as a second wave of riders already there's an idea to groups of nashville riders stuck in the birmingham bus station how are they going to get out negotiations by the kennedy administration and by the leaders of the movement that guttural problem jimmy hoffa the leader of the teachers union says none of my drivers are going to get on any of those buses greyhound corporation can't find any drivers will be on the bus and i'm so the writers are stuck there and it's not clear how they're ever going to get out of birmingham there's a lot of political will so

bobby kennedy calls the head regional manager the greyhound association try to figure out how great mountain and for some it's a it's a southeastern province ackerman ok ok so bobby kennedy calls manager the manager but because of that somebody calls greyhound try to figure out how they can get some driver on that bus to take those writers out of birmingham to demagogue bobby kennedy was really getting frustrated and he threatened to well to issue one ms frazer

but terry was frustrated as was the president and they decided to prepare the way for intervention in alabama and they got word to john patterson that was about to happen john patterson gets on the phone with bobby kennedy and they go back and forth without a job owning session an event riders you will do anything that we're going to have the government would have intervened they don't really make a clear is what that meant saying at all oh ok ok ok i stand that uses that to the unrest in orbit bobby kennedy was very frustrated he gets word of john patterson of that the state of alabama will protect the freedom riders won't end this crisis than the federal government have to do what they had to step in in some way patterns and realizes that he's got to do something he gets on the phone with bobby kennedy and they go

back and forth a better job morning session for several minutes at one point patterson shouting into the phone but finally realizes that that he's got to has got to do something specific so he says can't you send somebody gonna montgomery to talk to my staff to figure this out and that opens the way for john sieger dollar going down the recovery to talk with john patterson so in terms of their own to image of origami that's right a number of the writers after the riot of them a conversation we're were shaken up or injured three of them pretty badly john lewis who didn't go to the hospital but when barbie engines were dead and they suffered massive

injuries and that was it how far the president's goal is just aren't there just like them to stop the only they can unravel review one thing is the most of them weren't mean most of them were escaped without too much physical harm mobile to them were they're more they're more shaken up anything either live or they really really warm barely heard most of them and john lewis obviously by the band's songs have been undone somehow it all well the riot the montgomery bus terminal require a response from the movement that could let this pass the movement had to make a statement that it stood behind the freedom riders so they call a mass meeting first baptist church recovery ralph abernathy's church dr king flew in june former flew him fred shuttlesworth came down from

birmingham in a show of solidarity nearly fifteen hundred people made of parishioners of first baptist showed up to show their support for the freedom riders it was in an incredible scene unprecedented really the freedom rides of the very controversial that point there wasn't solid support for what many people thought was a big mistake that they were squandering the resources of the movement that there were to get themselves killed that it was that it was a you know full hearty venture but once the freedom riders were attacked in montgomery they had to close ranks they had to come together to make a general statement that nonviolence could not be pushed out of alabama by violence at the moment was committed to fighting jim crow through nonviolent means in alabama and everywhere else in the cell lions are inside this

slimy you know you can say that the next day or the day after the next day after the montgomery riot it was clear that the riot require a response from the movement but the movement could let this pass that they had to make a statement that civil rights advocates everywhere stood behind the freedom riders that they could not go into montgomery and just get beaten and pushed out by violence so they call a mass meeting support for the freedom riders at the first baptist church ralph abernathy's church dr king flu and jim former fluid reverend fred shuttlesworth came down from birmingham they fill the church fifteen hundred people there were news media people are cameras whirring know print pretty sorry at their print journalists there to do to cover the same and they're making a statement

that the moment was behind the freedom rides there have been disagreements before many people thought it had been a mistake that they were squandering the resources of the movement of the really get themselves killed there was a bad idea but now they had to close right now they had to come together dr king had to come and say so jim farmer had no lock arms with the national kids than to say that we're in this together that the freedom rides are here to stay that we're not going to get pushed out alabama by violence other the freedom rides up means something to the entire movement and we're not we're not leaving until until the day of democracy the beloved community a little closer alabama you're a lawyer there were a number of people in the movement who thought the freedom rides where we stay roy wilkins the head of an anomaly sleepy and cotton farmer and said here or on a joyride

farmer you know laughed it off but that he knew that wilkins was serious that will have thought that was a bad idea that the movement had no limited resources they were stretched to the limit they had many many court cases coming up and it looked like the freedom rides were going to not only use resources but micah people killed it was going to create a sense that the militant radical that it wasn't committed to the rule of law all these kinds of things images of outside agitators out civil disorder and so many people thought that this was not not a great idea that these fees these kids didn't know what they're getting themselves into and that it was an uncertain future for for the freedom riders and so it took a lot a lot of work a lot of love i'm have been considered in this event that in some ways a kind of course folly those eugene foreign court one step out there was that hard

there were institutional rivalries and personal rivalries and disagreements about philosophy and strategy that's our problem sighs i saw you i saw you listening i'm so sorry and socialize praying ok new book you write in the one time a lot of names some leaders in a moment sock or as an interloper of that they really have no goals no experience in the south that they didn't know what they were doing and that this was a challenge to the supremacy the underbelly c p and the southern christian leadership conference and so not everybody looked on as favorably part of it was a legitimate disagreements about tactics and that this was a kind of confrontational non violent direct action on that and that that might backfire it might but what people in jail

and spend a lot of resources that might get some people killed most people realize that at some point you have to take the struggle out of the courtroom and into the streets but the end of a lazy piano cl c i think wanted to keep control of when those decisions would be made and and the balance between not legal action and nonviolent direct action and so there was a bit of resentment of course and the notion that jim cole bomber and the others are trying to horn in on other people's action as well definitely many people saw the freedom rides will stay within the movement outside the movement of part public opinion ran against the freedom riders really everybody supported their goals but very few people actually supported the the details of their strategy they thought it was too confrontational that it wasn't going to

backfire with a set the movement back it was too risky they just didn't have the resources or the skill our the right of the know how about the inner workings of a love of jim crow and racism in how to fight in the deep south the kennedy administration was very reluctant to call out the national guard for a number of reasons both obviously political they didn't want to make a mistake that they thought the white house eisenhower had made back and added fifty seven in little rock they did not want no evoke images of reconstruction and john kennedy himself i think had a rather traditional notion of what happened during reconstruction that it would have been a mistake that was it a tragic error that the federal government should try to stay out of it in terms of direct intervention in southern affairs and so that there was a last thing they wanted to do they don't want to provoke the white southerners and i probably had more

political capital was and then they realized that of course the euro election of nineteen sixty have been very close john kennedy had not have a large mandate he did not have a larger democratic majority in congress he was looking forward to the nineteen sixty two election he didn't want to do anything to disturb his political advantages and he and his advisors were telling him that this was a potential disaster and that you know to do almost anything to prevent the appearance of military intervention in the south on behalf of a black southerners and civil rights activists oh a doctor james on the fallen bobby kennedy during the riot during the siege of the church so again the farm they're using common core and i will work on this season's over and then even at risk of the center right in riot gear and one k

dr king and bobby kennedy were in direct negotiation during the stage they're on the phone trying to work things out try to figure out what to do dr king saying the situation here is desperate you have got to do something you've got to figure out some way out of a hole the rule of law the bobby kennedy of course until the very last minute wanted to avoid at least the appearance of direct intervention and he wanted john patterson the deal he wanted to appear to come from the state level not the federal level and the back and forth between king and amber and bobby kennedy was a remarkable dramas of the civil rights years of rights movement or where you have a lot of the designated leader the iconic leader of the movement talking directly to the attorney general of this became more common later in the nineteen sixties but in nineteen sixty one this was all i'm president did get

gave dr king has stature that civil rights leaders had not had before it was kind of no personal contact that become for the hallmarks of the movement later but in nineteen sixty one it was a real affirmation of the other of the movement's power it was a sense that we've got and attorney generals attention we've got the administration's attention we're not getting everything from them that we want to perhaps but they know we're here and now and then they probably know what they should be doing that they should find some way to protect us to uphold our constitutional rights in the today's following the rescue the end of the siege the freedom riders and others leaders of the movement gather dr harrison's house and it's an amazing scene nothing like it

ever quite happened in history the movement before or you have young and old leaders sort of sequestered in this house talking about the philosophy of the movement strategy what to do next show the freedom rides continue or how are they doing at the freedom riders the mississippi how are they going to protect them you know what they should do what they should not do and part of this involves the relationship between the riders what with the freedom rides and dr king everybody knows you know he's the iconic leader or of the movement it would be an amazing thing if he became a freedom rider himself everybody knows that would be dangerous that would be risky but it would make a strong statement about his commitment to the freedom rides about the importance of reruns so there is a series of discussions about

dr king's relationship or the freedom rides there is a lot of evidence that he personally was inclined to be covering that if it had been just his decision he would've gone on those on those buses his advisors feel very differently and made freedom riders felt that he was most valuable as a spokesperson as a fund raiser of that you probably wouldn't do them as much good if he was just one of the riders would make them feel better it would make up so moral statement perhaps that but it would be self indulgent or maybe not be the best strategy for the movement but people disagree about this within the movement and there was up quite a debate in their cells and i think dr king went back and forth on it though finally decided that he simply could not take the risk that he was not getting on the boston he was going to have

serve the freedom rides in another way home but there was no consensus and there were some hard feelings about it the fact that though that that he did not actually become a freedom rider himself yeah it was way part of the ongoing discussion of the hairstyles revolve around recruiting dr king as a free rider actually put him on one of the buses go into mississippi it turned out that dr king was conflicted about this summer the freedom riders were certainly conflicted there were differences of opinion about whether was it a good idea some people felt that it would raise the profile of the freedom rides it would make a moral statement in the same way that gandhi march at the front of the line it would be great to have dr king on the bus others felt that he was more valuable as a spokesperson as a fund raiser

that they didn't need him in jail at this particular time and there of course was the possibility that they would get arrested him that he would get arrested but it when it was a quite a debate about whether he ought to become a freedom rider or not he decided in the end that he couldn't do what he didn't want to do it there was not time so for him to become a free rider and he made that clear a summer freedom riders were disappointed some of them never fully trusted him again i think there was a real disappointment acutely among some of the younger and a snake kids lawyer who thought that despite the risks that it was time for him to step up and become a free rider at this point they don't after the siege of freedom riders gathered at the doctor harris's houses was where the largest houses in the black community and end in montgomery diverse as one the great supporters of the montgomery improvement

association he gave a mouse can run of the house or it turned into an extended seminar room where the effort for two three days they had this discussion about various philosophies strategies tactics what should they do happen to get in the city safely should the freedom rides continue and should not even be a free rider you know all of that and it was a it was an amazing scene at their cells for those days people were there and never forgot it