Crocker Snow Reports From Germany; Academic Freedom in the U.S. and Germany

Greetings from West Germany. This is Crocker Snow speaking from the studios of Radio Deutsche Welle Cologne, the city with the world-famous Gothic cathedral. This week, a discussion with 2 students and two professors about some significant differences between university study in West Germany and the United States. The American students have studied in universities in both countries. The professors, one German, one American, have taught in both. First, Bob Monteagle questions the students, both Fulbright scholars now studying at Cologne University. Anthony Dean and Peter Brown both graduated from Yale. Dean is now finishing his first year of study of West German law after completing Yale Law School in 1965. Brown is in his third year here, working towards his Ph.D. in history. Now, Bob Monteagle, a former Fulbright scholar himself.

"[Monteagle]: All right, gentlemen. In what ways has your study been enriched by your experiences with the German Academy? First, Anthony Dean. "[Dean]: There's an--an inevitable broadening process when you come in--in contact with a--a different culture, different, uh, patterns of behavior, uh, and different ways of thinking about problems in the law it's, uh, it's particularly in--interesting because I find, uh, in discussions with my German colleagues that, uh, on particular points of law or particular cases, uh, German and American legal systems have worked out, uh, ways of dealing with problems--often the same problems--and coming to very equivent--quivalent results, but often by, uh, very diverse, uh, processes of reasoning, and, uh, I think it's very valuable to simply be exposed to different ways of thinking about, uh, the same problems, which you encounter at home all the time." "[Monteagle]: All right, Peter, what about the German university as a community? To what

extent do you feel yourself a part of it, both academically and socially? "[Brown]: Well, one of the major things which, uh, should be pointed out about the differences between an American university and a German university is that the German university is not operated on a campus system. Uh, the American--the classical American college, with, uh, dormitories on the campus, with all of the facilities which the students need, uh, near to the university itself where essentially you're--you've got a self-contained, an organic separate community devoted to--to academic pursuits, is not found in Germany. The German university is most similar to an American university in a large city, for example, uh, this coll--this University of New York or the University of the City of New York, and perhaps the University of Chicago, where essentially most of the students live either in the city itself, far distant from the university, or may commute from as far as 30

miles away every day. Consequently, you don't have the--the unity of spirit, frankly, that you find at most American universities. And, uh, consequently, this puts a far--a much greater burden on the individual concerned, uh, to establish his own social contacts and develop his own life within the--the German academic community per se. Another thing, which contributes to the--to the major difference between a German university and American University is the lack of contact between the professor and his students. Ah, the German university is organized on what's called a seminar basis. Ah, every full professor--or most full professors--have their own institute devoted to a--a fairly narrow area within their field and the relationship between these institutes and the rest of the university is often very tenuous. You find that, uh, a German university is a research institution to a far

greater degree than you find an American University, and consequently, the gulf between the student body and the teaching body is considerably greater. Consequently, this--this tends to lead to a greater separation between not only the student and the university, but the students from each other, because the student will work in a particular institution or institute and will develop his contacts within this narrow institute rather than having a-a-an easy opportunity to develop contacts throughout the full breadth of the university." "[Monteagle]: Another question--would you say that the American university is too paternalistic in comparison with the German. That is, does the American college or university perhaps supervise its students to their detriment, in that it does not allow them enough independence? I'm thinking in terms of diversification, compulsory class attendance, and the like. Anthony?" "[Dean]: I think, in balance, uh, from what, uh, I've seen so far we would have to, uh,

say a good word in favor of the American system. The German system is based on what is called here the 'principle of academic freedom,' which means just that, in its fullest sense. There are practically no, uh, formal requirements as--as far as, uh, course distribution goes, such as most universities have in the States, and there is a--a lack of, uh, structure of, uh, leading from introductory courses to middle level courses and finally into, uh, culminating with a specialization in a major field. And as a result, uh, students, uh, find themselves, uh, particularly at the beginning, uh, in a quandary just, um--uh, taking courses but having, uh, little idea of a particular direction. They're also, uh, led into a specialized field much earlier without the, uh--uh, benefit of a broad, uh--uh, liberal education. "[Monteagle]: Alright, Peter, what is

your stand on this question about paternalism in the American Academy, as compared with that of the German university system?" "[Brown]: Well, frankly, this is a very difficult question to answer because it's a comparison between 19 universities in Germany and over 2500 educational establishments in the United States. Consequently, you're going to find widely different standards and, in the United States, it's a question of where you want to take your comparison. Ah, what I think I'd like to do is take--make a comparison between the--the larger state universities in the United States and--and the better private institutions and compare them with the German institutions. Ah, frankly, the question of paternalism is something which I think is--is disabused in the United States. There's a--there's a difference between a paternalistic system, which demands certain moral requirements of a student and a well-organized teaching institution, which realizes that it has a certain obligation to the student to provide him with a cohesive education." "[Monteagle]:

And would you like to elaborate on that?" "[Brown]: The major rules that we had to obey while we were at our particular institution, Yale, was that we had to obey the state and s-- municipal laws. Uh, we had to, well, behave as reasonable individuals and freshmen were not allowed to have kegs of beer in their room. Uh, the paternalism of an American university, frankly, is--is an advantage because when it's intelligently applied it reflects the--the knowledge and wisdom of people who have already gained their education, applying this to the problem of teaching students. And this is, frankly, something that, uh, the German university does not do. You are responsible for, frankly, for filling the gaps, and the gaps can be very large. There is no concept of providing a--a really cohesive plan of study, of providing, for example, the core courses which are necessary for your, um, training in any particular field and, uh, you'll find that, for example, for the

first time, to my knowledge, since the Second World War, a reasonably broad course in, say, the history of the United States is being taught at the University of Cologne. Prior to that time, historians were responsible for, uh, their education in this particular field of history on their own. And you found an institution which is grown up in the German university system which you really don't find in American universities, that is something which is called the ?Repartietur? the ?Repartietur? is a private tutor who runs a cram course outside of the university. Normally, uh, almost every movie theater in Cologne is rented by one or another of these private tutors to run courses to fill the gaps to provide the comprehensive, uh, academic training which is necessary to pass the examinations. And this, frankly, reflects, in my opinion, the fact that, uh, the German university has not faced its responsibility of being a teaching institution rather than being a, uh, primarily a

research institution." "[Monteagle]: Anthony Dean, do you have anything to add to that?" "[Dean]: Ah, I think perhaps we should put in a good word for what, uh, we often disliked at home, which is the practice of, uh, having the students take exams af--uh, every semester in the courses they've been taking. Here in Germany, of course, the practice is that, uh, you take one ignormou--enormous exam in your major field when you feel you've completed your studies--normally, after a minimum of four years. Um, the exam system, uh, that we have has the advantage of forcing you to attend classes fairly regularly and, uh, as a minimum, reading the required material for the course. Here, uh, there's no such compulsion until the last couple of years when you face the prospect of the large exam and, uh, often this is filled in by the ?Repartietur?." You have been listening to Anthony Dean and Peter Brown, American Fulbright scholars now studying in Germany. Both received their Bachelor of Arts degrees at

Yale, previously. The 2 students discussed some fundamental differences between university life in Germany and America. Now, the same subject as seen by 2 experienced university professors, Dr. René König, a German, is the dean of the sociology department at Cologne University. In 1959-'60 and '64-'65, he was a Fulbright professor at the University of California, Berkeley. Arthur Nethercot, an American professor of English Literature, is now the Fulbright professor at Cologne University, after many years teaching at Northwestern. Bob Monteagle opens the discussion with the two professors. "[Monteagle]: Professor König, you have just heard Anthony Dean and Peter Brown, 2 American Fulbright scholars now studying here in Germany. Both men were somewhat critical of the degree of academic freedom in Germany. What are your thoughts on this?" "[König]: I am in a very bad position because I am in full agreement with the 2 gentlemens I have just heard.

In fact, the great difference between the American university system and the German university system is that the American universities take much more care for their students. Personal relations between the professor and the student, on the one hand, and between students on the other hand, is the most essential fact that the university is in the United States. In Europe you see--especially in Germany--that the professors are more or less over-guarded, so they don't have direct contacts with the students anymore. All they have is a contact with a student through the help of an assistant. But you know how this is. You always get indirect news and never the direct touch with the man. Therefore, I personally like very much teaching in the United States. It's always an extremely stimulating experience because I feel that the teacher learns at least as

much while teaching another student than the student. With a new man, you meet--you meet a new world. And these contacts are extremely useful for the development of the professor, not so much of the students. All this is missing, and I think it was Mr. Brown who made the point that the German university is much more concerned with research than with teaching. The university in Germany is also much more concerned with the elite and not so much with average student. And here I think the American universities have a better way of dealing even with big masses. Because if you succeed in getting them in personal contact with professors, then you can give them what has been called a cohesive education and not only an haphazard education." "[Monteagle]: Yes, but sir,

couldn't to say that this notion of 'akademische Freiheit' is intended for the super student, as it were, for the elite, and that he can follow through on this. That he has as much freedom in his studies as he needs?" "[König]: I think he has this liberty, but the elite is just a very small group. But here I would like to make another point. As you just remarked, I have been teaching in both countries. At the beginning, I was sometimes shocked by the American system because I thought it was too severe. The students were controlled for attendance, the reading requirements, the examination--mid-term examination, and the final examination, to me, at the beginning, seemed to be a very hard job. On the other hand, the European or the German system does not give enough examination, and so I think something in between should be followed. Between the very severe American system and the very loose German system." "[Monteagle]: Alright, Dr. Nethercot, I should like to address this question to

you. To what extent do you find that the notion of 'akademische Freihet' affects the work of the German students with whom you have been working?" "[Nethercot]: When I first arrived in Germany, uh, there was a conference of all the Fulbright appointees, both the teaching appointees and the research people, at Bad Godesberg. One of the first things that we were told by a German professor of, uh, English literature--University of Bonn--was that, uh, the term 'academic freedom' was, uh, applicable somewhat differently from what we were accustomed to in the United States. That it did mean academic freedom for the professor because, uh, he could announce almost, uh, any course that he wanted to give without respect to the way in which it might integrate, uh, with the other courses being

given in the department, without respect, uh, to, uh, the, uh, the, uh, general preparation, uh, in the field. But even more, it applied to the student who was, uh, completely free academically." "[Monteagle]: Do you think that, uh, this notion of 'akademische Freiheit' has turned into 'akademische Faulheit,' akademi--academic laziness?" "[Nethercot]: I'm afraid in some cases it has. Uh, I have been giving 2 courses in the English seminar--or English department, as we would say in the United States. One, a Hauptseminar, and the other is a series of lectures, uh, Vorlesungen. And I remember this experience very vividly. I'll never forget it. Uh, in Germany--most universities, at least--it is necessary for the students to prepare a list of the courses that they are taking and, uh,

to have this list signed by their professors, uh, before the semester is over. They can begin, uh, at almost any time and, uh, end with the--with the last lecture in the series. I was giving a series of lectures on the early American drama before the First World War and, uh, after the 3rd lecture, I think it was, uh, I went out of the classroom and was waylaid, uh, by a young man who was waiting outside the door with a sheet of paper and, uh, a pen, and he shoved it at me and I said, 'What do you want?' and he said, uh, 'I'd like you to sign this.' And I looked down and I said, 'Where do you want me to sign?' And he pointed to a certain course with a certain name. It wasn't mine, it wasn't my course. He hadn't been at the lecture. But, uh, he wanted to get my signature testifying to the fact that, uh, he had

been attending lectures in this course. Well, that's an extreme case, but, uh, it shows the way th--this, uh, system can work. I understand, though, that that is not going to, uh, be followed, uh, next, uh, semester at the university, as Dr. König--" "[König]: Our faculty dropped the system of signatures. This German system does not work anymore as it used to work in the past, as proved by one fact. That all over Germany, all the universities, all the different faculties, are now discussing if we should not introduce new forms of examinations and new forms of control. Here everything is still open. Decisions haven't been taken yet, but I am sure that in the next future, very important changes will occur in the German university, especially with regard to the 'akademische Freiheit.' It's not only that we need more personnel, because you in the Unite--in the United States, you are in a favorite situation. You have so many professors, much more

then we will ever have here. On the other hand, we also need a change of organization and I think that even with few professors we could succeed in getting a better education if we had a new organization." "[Monteagle]: Sir, I should like to ask you another question, namely, what advantage is there to the German university? So far, the balance of the argument has been for the United States, for the American system of education. Certainly there is, traditionally, methods of pedagogy, methods of learning, in the German university that are very valuable and are still practiced." "[König]: I think that you cannot answer in a general way to this question, because the situation is very different from one university to the other [coughs]. If you take the older, famous universities in Germany like Heidelberg or Bonn or other ones, you will find the same spirit as mentioned by one of the students.

The spirit of unity and, uh, tradition. But for the new universities, and here I will not quote any names, you can say that they have no traditions of their own and that the situation in them is much worse than in the other ones. The big universities, especially the economic faculties, have to be reformed entirely." "[Monteagle]: Dr. Nethercot, do you have any positive observations about your experiences with the German university so far?" "[Nethercot]: Well, I have--I've found, uh, among the students that I have had a chance to get into fairly close contact with, uh, in my seminar, a, uh, a desire to establish this, uh, closer relationship, uh, between faculty and student. Though, at the same time, they have found it, uh, a little difficult to overcome their, uh, their--feeling

about, uh, the barrier. They've, uh, felt a certain distance, a certain, uh, formality. But, uh, when I've been able to get them to come into my office to, uh, discuss, uh, what they've been reading, uh, and, uh, the papers they're going to write, uh, I have found, at least in the majority of cases, uh a--a, such a desire and such a gratitude, uh, at the opportunity, uh, to, uh, talk on a man-to-man or girl-to-man basis, uh, with a faculty member. I feel that, uh, this word, uh, paternalism may be applied in different ways. But, uh--uh, I think there should be more of a fatherly attitude, shall we say, uh, from the faculty member toward the student, even though the student has now presumably reached mature years, uh, most of them, at the present time--that is, in

the new situation in German universities that has developed, uh, since the war, with, uh, an invasion of thousands and thousands of students, that there are many of them, uh, who are not, uh, sufficiently mature to go ahead on their own. Uh, they feel that, uh, they--they want, uh, more direction and, uh, more advice." "[König]: Uh, if I may speak as a sociologist, you have just touched a very important point and perhaps the most important point of the situation in Germany. This is a class problem. In the pre-war situation, you could say as a general rule that the students were coming from the upper middle classes. In the post-war situation, this has changed, essentially. We get now students from the lower middle classes. And if the students in the upper middle classes get enough maturity at an earlier age,

you cannot say the same for the students from the lower middle classes. They have no experience with academic institutions at all and, therefore, they need a more personal approach. Yeah, I'm completely of your opinion. Unfortunately, I think that this problem is not appreciated yet ?as its? real importance in Germany." "[Monteagle]: Aside from paternalism in academic pursuits, how do you regard the difference in social, athletic, structural differences? Is the old college try something only typical of the United States, Dr. König?" "[König]: I think that the college system is very typical for the United States and cannot be repeated for Germany, because German universities have started in a completely different way. But this does not mean that we could not reach some of the achievements of the American universities by changing our own. And here I think that mutual exchange of professors and students may be very important for the

future. However, this is not enough. We should study the question deeper then it has been done so far. For the time being, we are trying to change our teaching institutions, but we don't know exactly what we are doing, and I think we should study further the functions of the social functions of the higher academic institutions than the purely academic point and the purely scholarly point in this field. In Germany people have thought too much on how to teach things. They have never thought how to get people organized to get mature for higher studies, and this is a question we will have to study in the next years to come." "[Monteagle]: Ah, what about the University of Bochum? I suppose both you gentlemen are familiar with their efforts there. This is the newest institution of its kind in Germany, a departmental system. Do you think this is going to alleviate the problem, Dr. Nethercot?" "[Nethercot]:

Well, I am not as familiar with the University Bochum as I would like to be. I've read about it in a general way, but it does seem to me that, uh, it is attempting to make use of, uh, some principles of, um, the American system that might lead to--to a, uh, desirable result. I might say, however, that, uh, the thing works in both directions. I read an article in Time magazine just a few weeks ago, a rather lengthy article, on what is happening in several, um, uh, well-established and, uh, highly reputed American universities. And they are attempting to put much less, uh, stress, uh, on, uh, examinations, on, uh, class attendance-- though I think most American universities don't, uh, actually take the role, they

check on class attendance through examinations and things of that sort--but, uh, these universities are attempting to give more independence to the individual student. They are, uh, establishing more, uh, independent study courses, which are adapted to the individual student. So each--each, uh, country has its contribution to make to the other, it seems." "[Monteagle]: Dr. König, one more question. Uh, how would you compare the American and the German student bodies? Equally--are they equally broad-based or not?" "[König]: Here you can say that you will find good students among the American students and among the German students. That's not the point. The real problem, in my eyes, is more or less [what] eduction they have received previously,, than the moment when they joined the university. And you, Doctor Nethercot, made the remark little before when you spoke about your experiences here

in Cologne, when you say that the students are inhibited. American students are never inhibited, as you know, they just drop in into your office and keep you busy for hours and hours. But I like it in some way, because here you feel that as a professor you have a real--you are human being. You are respected as a human being and you are needed in some way, because people come and ask you questions. Whereas the German student, he may be excellent, but he will hesitate to ask you a personal question. He will never ask you a question, for instance, regarding his personal life. This never happened to me through about 30 years of academic teaching. Whereas, in the United States, you will find the students very often asking personal questions and sometimes very delicate questions." "[Nethercot]: I have had Germans students ask me such questions already and I've been here only one semester [laughs]." "[König]: You see, so they need it and they are ready to accept advice when you are ready to give it to them. Very often I am teaching in the United States a course on family

and marriage, for instance. And this, of course, brings the students in asking, 'Should I marry this or that girl?' Here, of course, I always tell them, 'I am not a consultant, please go next door. I'm not a psychoanalyst, either, so go to another one. But the point is the human relations, the personal relations, not too--so much paternalistic relations, which look more or less like distress [?] but purely free human relations between a grown-up man and a younger man or girl on the other side, who can discuss their human problems together with problems of science." You have been listening to a general discussion of some significant differences between university life university life I n Germany and the United States. First, two American Fulbright scholars who have studied in universities in both countries, and just now, Professor René König, a German, and Professor Arthur Nethercot, an American, both of whom have had experience teaching in both countries. This is Crocker snow radio Deutsch of our cone West Germany.