WGBH Roundtable; James Meredith and Jack Greenberg

Mr. Chairman Mr. Barrett Mr. Greenberg. Ladies and gentlemen it is indeed fitting that a meeting of this kind should take place. At a temple. I would by all. Gave to the world. The concept. Of the quality of Mac. And the Bible said that man was created in the image of God. The implications will quite clear eyed. All man are created in the image of God. The Bible says that God created Adam. And Adam is the Hebrew word for man. It meant what it sad it created man. God created man.

Bible does not say white man. Or colored man. He created man. When the prophets. Later on said to the children of Israel i.e. not as the children of the Ethiopians unto me. Perhaps there was a time in the history of the Hebrews when they too felt that they were superior to others of different colors and they have with the prophets to remind them again of the ancient truth. That all men are created equal and that in the eyes of the lot they Hebrews one no better are no different from the docks and Ethiopians. It is therefore in keeping with this biblical profet tradition that it is

altogether fitting that in a temple this kind of meeting should take place. We privilege to have with us tonight. A young man. Who can rightly be said. Is one who is shaping American history. There are in every generation in the past of awe great country. As in the present a man who will make history. Such a man is change America. One who has manifested an inner strength and fortitude a degree of courage that we associate with soldiers who fight in the front lines.

There certainly must be deep within his soul such a conviction as to the truth of what he believes and. That he has transcended fear. And has been able. To fulfill his function in the management that has aroused the admiration the respect and the affection not only of people in our own country but throughout the world. It is good to know that there are such a man. Among Us and it is even better to be able to welcome him to Boston. And to Temple mission to fellow more particularly. With James Meredith is another young man. Who is helping shape history in our day. Mr. Jack Greenberg

who is the director counsel. Of the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund. Mr. Greenberg is a scholar. A man who has even though he's young and written several very important books on race relations and American long. And the Citizen's Guide to desegregation. A graduate of Columbia University Law School. He is comically engaged in studying the civil liberties of 17 nations under the auspices of the Council for research and social studies at Columbia University. He has done remarkable an outstanding work in every major civil rights case in which the NAACP has participated since showing that organization nine thousand nine hundred forty nine. We are indeed delighted.

To have Mr. Greenberg with us and it is a source of great pleasure to me and a privilege to introduce Mr. Jack Greenberg to you now. Mr. Greenberg of a wff. Rabbi distinguished guests think America ladies and gentleman the rabbi has spoken of the heroism of Mr. Meredith which says for the first time in a long time brought back to my mind those days when we were together in New Orleans during the what was known as the Meredith case. The case was being tried in New Orleans before the Court of Appeals. America. Was seeking admission to the University of Mississippi. And I think it was three or four nights in a row. We went in a. Red Holzman be all convertible that the United States marshals had it was the most conspicuous car imaginable and it was that kind of a car.

Because they felt being so conspicuous nobody no one would imagine that would be the car they'd be carrying James Meredith in it. And one of two a small private airport off. The main airport in New Orleans where he was put in a private plane. To which we we met at the end of the runway. And nobody could even see him go in the terminal and he take off there like almost made me feel like a Lonely Astronaut talks in Mississippi only to be sent back each time until finally the fourth time he secured a submission and went through that year which is unique in the history of Mississippi and unique in the history of the United States. There have been. Many who have gone through experiences that are similar to some extent and in the past year. There has been a concentration of such people there's been Vivian Malone and James Hood

at the University of Alabama and there's been Harvey Gantt at Clemson college in South Carolina. And there have been the nameless students. We know their name but certainly name most of the public. At the University of Alabama and the university where the Alabama elementary schools and at the. Elementary schools in Charleston South Carolina and Savannah and Huntsville and Tuskegee and a number of other places because the temple was increasing. The demand is becoming more intense and. There have been more people wanting to secure the right and the courts have been expressing a growing readiness to grant the right. But I think that when American history is written. Many Years From Now. James Meredith will be not only an individual because he is and I have met them all and I have represented them all and know them all. But as a

personality a unique historical individual. In a sense that none of the others are I know some of the other students who just want to be like other students and that after all is all they really ought to want to be. You don't have to want to be a great historic figure to just want to go to college. There are a thousand colleges through this throughout the United States and most people go to them. Just want to go to college. And negroes are really no different than white people they're no nobler and they're no less noble. They're no more no they just generally want to go to college. And this is true of many of the students we've represented in these cases. One of them wants to be an office manager in a business while nothing's wrong with that we have a lot of those around the country. But James Meredith is a man with a historic vision and a historic stance and he has. Been unique among all of those in all the cases that we have had and there's no doubt about that at

all. And in a sense it's perhaps just that this is the case because the Meredith case has represented a crossroads. I think we all recognize it's a crossroads in the history of American Integration Movement that no other case really has represented. Unquestionably each one of these cases is unique in the sense that they move us ahead a step or a yard or a mile. But this case has been a unique turning point. I think if we think back before the Meredith case it's very difficult to think of the excitement. There is an example of two without the sustained excitement that we have had in the United States since then we have had sit ins and freedom rides and the University of Alabama and Jackson Mississippi in the shooting of Medgar Evers and the March on Washington. And I don't have the slightest doubt that it's the Meredith case which has been the launching pad for all of this. And not to say that substantially all of it

would not have happened. This is a great historic movement which is riding the crest of it. And I think that we would be climbing too much if we would be claiming that we were responsible for. But. The fact that it is taking the shape that it has at the time that it has had in the way that it has I think is due to the historic presence the personal presence of James Meredith the way he has conducted himself in this case in a way that no one could possibly imagine and I recall the. First morning that he we he left the Dillard University campus in New Orleans before he left for Mississippi and he wrote out. What. Amounted to a last will and testament. And. It wasn't pretentious it really wasn't intended for anyone else to see but he said with a vision again that none of the others have had that if I die it will not matter because the fact that I have died in such a quest will mean that I was already dead before I started.

So this is a man who was no ordinary man no mere student is wanting to go though there's nothing wrong with being a mere student who wants to go. Most students who go to college are mere students who really want to go. But his case is represented across Georgia not only in the historic temple of the. Movement that we're involved in today but it is symbolized. The contrast the clash between tokenism on the one hand which is what the South and the the north in the entire country has been responding with to the integration movement versus real integration. And his case has also appeared among the contrasts between honesty a real acknowledgment of the factors that are involved in what's going on today and the immorality and the dishonesty that we encounter so often when people are asked to face up to the race crisis question. I think perhaps this can be exemplified best of all if I tell you something about the facts of

Meredith's own case something with really isn't known because the Meredith case was going on for about 18 months before the newspapers ever heard of it. He applied to the University of Mississippi almost a year and a half before we had the war down there at Oxford that made headlines and caught everyone's attention. The University of Mississippi in the last analysis threw down the gauntlet and said we're not going to let him in because he's a negro and this is the kind of state we have an all white state and it's an all white university and this is the stand that we take. But that isn't the way they fought the lawsuit. They fought the lawsuit first of all saying that when he applied to the University of Mississippi he applied on paper which was Air Force stationery and consequently he was guilty of converting and stealing government property and was unqualified to be admitted to the University of Mississippi and we had to go to great lengths to show that this was paper that had been discarded at the Air

Force surplus and Meredith being more frugal and efficient citizen than our Air Force at salvage that was using it. He felt he could make some use of it in fact easy to apply to the University of Mississippi. And then they claimed that he was writing. Type part of that really was an Air Force typewriter and he was able to establish that he had bought this and produced the receipt that he paid for it. Then they claimed that he'd gone to an unaccredited school which was Jackson State College in Jackson Mississippi. And then we had to establish that as yes it was on accredited but it was the only school in Mississippi to which negroes were admitted and it was a state school and if it was on accredited which it was it was merely because the state of Mississippi hadn't given it sufficient funds and teachers in the Quitman and staff and so forth to make it an accredited schools that was the fault of Mississippi not the fault of James Meredith. And then there was some crazy claim that for him to want to go to the University of Mississippi was the manifestation of a neurotic impulse and they went back

and they subpoenaed his his Air Force records and show that he'd gone to the doctor once and the doctor had said he had a nervous stomach. And. Judge wisdom of the Court of Appeals was a great judge wrote an opinion and said Well that might be true but in fact it might take a negro who was a man with a mission and with a nervous stomach to want to go to the University of Mississippi. Well. This as many things amuses us in retrospect. But this is the basis upon which the University of Mississippi fought the Meredith case for a year and a half when I say the University of Mississippi I'm not speaking of an abstract entity I'm speaking of the board of trustees which consists of the most eminent citizens of Mississippi and I'm speaking of counsel for Mississippi which consists of the most eminent members of the bar in Mississippi. And they fought the merit of the case not on this basis not rather not on the basis that they want to keep him because he was a Negro but on this basis.

And I would say that I would much rather have fought the case on the honest basis of racial discrimination than on the basis of all this duplicity and law is. Being presented by the most eminent lawyers and educators and citizens of a state who are not only sworn to uphold the Constitution of the state of the United States but the principles of education which are supposed to express some of the morality according to which we're supposed to live. Well. The merit of the case is but I single case and I think however if I go back somewhat into the history of these desegregation cases I can give you an example of how we have faced this sort of problem time and time again. It was 38 in 1938 when the Supreme Court of United States decided the Gaines case which held that separate but equal education in universities was unconstitutional that is the University of

Missouri could not exclude a negro on the ground even though they didn't have a law school they would send him to another state. It was the early 50s when the University of Texas Law School was held. It was however they could not exclude human Marian sweat on the ground they built them a separate law school on the basis of some petroleum country build a petroleum company building and the dean of the University of Texas Law School went and testified that law school that Jim Cole law school with 12 students that use the library over in the state capitol building and had teachers come over from the University of Texas and teach him was equal what the Supreme Court of the United States said well that's not true. But it was as early as 50 that the dean of a major law school in this country could claim that that was an equal education. Then the Maclaurin case the Supreme Court of the United States held that you could not sit in a separate desk table in the cafeteria table in the

library claiming he was getting an equal education because he couldn't associate with other students with whom he was supposed to exchange ideas with whom he was supposed to work and then came Brown against Board of Education which many have attacked as a great shocking departure in the law and the Brown case merely said the same thing that the gains in the sweat in the civil cases that I just described this that and that is if you separate people from their peers in the community they are not really being treated equally. The response of the Brown case was an uneven response there was a great deal of. Successful desegregation of Wilmington Delaware Washington D.C. Louisville Kentucky St. Louis some towns in Tennessee a few towns in Texas and so forth. But then we ran into two types of approaches. One was the approach of massive resistance which Virginia Alabama and other states proclaimed and I must say that for myself I far prefer that approach because it's an honest approach. They say we don't want to integrate.

We don't need those in our schools. We feel we have the right to defy the United States government. That's our position and we'll do battle on it. I don't mind that approach because it's honest and it's clear we can do battle with them and we can win. And I don't mind somebody opposing on a basis according to which I can win. The other approach or whatever. Is the approach. Which is by far the more difficult approach and this is the approach that has now permeated the country and it is of course the approach that typifies the north as well as the South and that is the approach of tokenism that is the approach for example in the north. Oh it's not that we don't it's not we don't want to sell you the house but it's not because of your color. It's because it's a question of the mortgage. Sure your income or the neighbors or we have to investigate it or somebody else has just bought it or some other dishonest vase of inconclusive

reason whereby we won't face up to the issue because we're too embarrassed to or afraid if we do will because it will compel me. To be compelled to sell the house. That is the approach of the north and that is by far the most successful approach that we have had in the south and that's best of course typified by the contrast between North Carolina and Virginia. Virginia was a massive resistant state Virginia said never. No one can come and no Negroes can come into the schools. We proclaim our doctrine of into position. We will fight to the death and so forth and within a year after they announced that there were several thousand negroes in white schools. That's hardly an integrated state but that's a good start and that's a start upon which a great deal of progress is being made. Except that Virginia has now looked down in North Carolina as switching to the North Carolina approach. North Carolina pros on the other hand as are well we don't agree with it but it's the law of the land and we will

have to a bat. But that has to be done according to certain procedures according to certain administrative remedies have to be exhausted. You have to file an application and they have to give you a psychological test and an IQ test and achievement test and you have to appeal to the school your principal or your teacher in the principal and the school board. That doesn't work into the state court in the federal court. But one thing we want to be clear about if you are entitled to your rights you will get them. These cases usually end up if. If we fight them according to the way they want us to fight them end up taking five years in court with the students graduated before the litigation is over. But that of course is known as rolling with the punch. This is the approach of tokenism in fact they will let a few to 5 10 15 Negro students in to a few schools they'll gerrymander the zones they'll do whatever is necessary to avoid complying with the

substance of the requirements of not only the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States but of of ordinary accepted moral standards of today. We had we've had many cases like that in Greensboro North Carolina we had a famous case that I never tire telling of and that's of the Negro students in the mixed neighborhood who applied to a particular school. I was a white school they were told they couldn't be admitted because they were colored. We filed a lawsuit on the school board after the case was filed I ran right into court and said OK now the case if I will let you in except not to the main building there was an annex building for storage purposes on the campus we've cleaned all the stores out and then they go kits and go to that building. And in lawyers parlance the case is moot there's nothing left to litigate. You want to go to the school you're in the school. Well we protested against that and said the purpose of the lawsuit was not to secure admission to that particular campus but to an integrated education.

And we didn't feel that being admitted to a segregated building on the campus was adequate or that was being litigated they transferred all the white kids elsewhere into town and filled the main building up with Negro kids close down the annex buildings and well here everybody's in the main building now you certainly have nothing to complain about now. You want to go to the building you're in it. Well we litigated that and finally won that. And the children were given the same right to transfer to other schools that the white children had except we then ran up against the problem that negro schools typically in that community had last years edition of the texts of the white schools getting the new additions of the tax and the schools getting the hand me downs. And so they could not transfer immediately because they were not on a par with the white kids. As to their grade level courses and so forth and so on. So the problem. Certainly not one obviously being involved in the profession of being a civil rights lawyer who agrees

with the dictum that the laws cannot change the hearts and minds of men and of course Laws can and they have. And I have changed the hearts and minds of men in connection with the school cases and connection to white primaries in connection with housing. They've certainly changed the practices in the community and so forth. But there are. There is a point beyond which laws cannot go and laws as such beyond actually pinning a school board to the wall as we did in Greensboro after tremendous effort cannot stop the duplicity and the dishonesty and the immorality and the persistent effort to resist by means of just making things difficult that we have encountered so often in the south which is a typical case in the north. Well. As I said the problem with this is not merely that. But this happened so often that it makes it so difficult.

It is perhaps really more deeply a problem for the nation as a whole than it is for Negroes or for the civil rights movement because you have to look at who the members of the school boards are I don't know who the member of the school boards are in this community but typically they're the same kinds of people as they are throughout the United States these are the leading lawyers physicians clergymen businessmen. And. Others who are meant to be paragons of civic virtue and morality in the community. And these are the ones who without blinking an eye when you ask them How is it that in your community it turns out that all the negroes are in some schools and all the negro all the white children are at other schools and. Demands for integration have been made upon you but you say that this is just the way it comes out. How does it come out this way. They say we don't know it just happens to come out that way we have not been attempting to achieve racial segregation and these as I say are the moral and

spiritual leaders of the community. Well this is all kind of a long way of embellishing what I said at the outset and that is that James Meredith will speak to the next is in. Many respects a personification of the problem a personification of the problem in the deepest most difficult and. Most wicked approaches to this problem that are being taken by the opposition. But nevertheless in the full range of its manifestations the problem that we face throughout the United States today. Thank you so. Much. My. Thank you very much Mr. Greenberg for the insight that you have given us into

the problems that face us in America as we seek to achieve equal civil rights. When James Meredith was asked. To comment upon his experience at the University of Mississippi he said and I quote him. I have been well treated under the circumstances. I hope the situation gets back to normal. As soon as possible. So students can conduct their studies in an orderly manner. In the meeting that some of us had before coming here tonight with Mr. Meredith I had the privilege of sitting on talking with him. I found certain elements in his makeup which to me indicated that

there was within or there is within his soul his spirit. Tremendous reservoir. Of spiritual strength. There's a modesty about James Meredith. I'm assuming I'm pretentious yet completely dedicated to the dream. Which he had. And to the effort to implement that dream a lot of us have dreams and many of us see visions but the men who have made history are the man who went on to try to achieve and to realize the dream despite all obstacles in the deepest sense of the term. Dial Down deep in the core of the soul of James Meredith is

a very strong faith in God. And when I use that what I mean by this faith in God is the on the shake of all faiths. The unconquerable faith that there is a power in this world that is making far right justness and justice. That though the road to be a difficult one though the obstacles appear almost insurmountable though the resistance and the opposition that time takes on vicious Spong. This conviction this faith that there is a power making for the eventual triumph of justice and righteousness is the religious man's faith in God. And to me James Meredith is a most telling example of this kind of active faith.

He will not surrender that faith. Even though he knows that only a small dent has been made. And as Mr. Greenberg said in his remarks about Mr. Meredith. Mr. Meredith was willing to die if need be for that faith. This is idealism at its highest. A symbol. For American youth today never to surrender one space in the ultimate victory of that which is true beautiful and good. It is therefore friends with a deep sense of privilege that I. Now take the opportunity to present to you a great American. A pioneer

in the fight for the dignity of man one whose contribution to America is a lasting one. Mr. James Meredith. You all of. Thank you Rabbi. Platform gas. Ladies and gentlemen. First.

I want to agree. With the position of the rabbi. That the problems of the night show. Of the society in the community. Is always an appropriate subject in the religious house. I would like to even go father. I think it is a responsibility that cannot. Be avoided. You know there's a saying about standing before a white audience. Always instills in me a feeling of sadness. I was always surprised by stand before a negro audience.

And looking into the faces of a negro audience. It makes me sad to realize. That they and 1963. Still do not enjoy. All of the rights and privileges for which I would give my life. To look into the face of a wider audience. It always saddens me to realize. That I might be wasting my time. That somehow. Nothing. Above. What existed in the mind. Before the meeting. Would be that after. Most always bothers me. I hope this doesn't prove to be the case.

The topic that I had on the sheet of paper that I received was something about crisis and race relations something of that nature. There is no such thing as a crisis in racial relations in the United States of America. The crisis in the United States of America. Is one. Of citizenship. In this country we have citizens. The basis. Of citizenship. It is simply been a citizen. It is not based on race religion. Richness poorness. Solely. On the fact of

being a citizen of this country. As a matter of fact. There's a large segment of the nation's population that does not in fact. Enjoy all of the privileges and rights of citizenship. This is no question of race. To question of citizenship. They told me 20 minutes. I could talk twenty minutes about the price of tea in China. So I doubt very seriously if we can say very much about this. Problem. That we have today. But I say John I'm at home are writing on my left who are going to ask many questions and I understand you are too. So perhaps before the night is over. We might get to talk about many things.

The thing that I would. Like to do. Is to somehow try to say something. That would add to the understanding of the seriousness of this problem. And what the problem is. What is the problem. That is the number one internal problem in the nation today. The question. Is purely one of white supremacy. One hundred years ago there was a great civil war going on in this country. The issue was whether one man. Could own. And possess. Another man. Today. The question. Is whether one man. Can be legally formally

Fisher only superior are supreme over another man. That is the question. That face this nation today. I wondered years ago. The question of slavery. Drove a man all over the world including the United States of America. To find a solution to this. Problem. Either through our budget ration through war. The question that we face today. The one of whether or not one man. Can be legally and socially supreme over another man. Could very well. Be even a more serious problem. And might cause man to go to even more serious extremes than

the issue of slavery. You know people always. Say to me after. And a parent said. They didn't tell enough about my youth growing up. You all know I come from Mississippi. And I grew up on the farm. It's not bad. About 80 percent of us grew up on the farm. And. My father of course was a poor farmer. And never owned a tractor. So we had to plow you. I know you rich cellar dwellers know nothing about me but I understand from some of the people here that you have one of the best school

systems in the country. And perhaps you read. A little about me you see. Things like that. So. Of course. We want to school through the week but on Saturday. We had the plow. And if it was raining. It's too wet to plow. Of course we had the whole world. If you were I guess you all call. That should be pretty easy to understand back in my day because. You know even today in Mississippi only. One Negro family in 12 has an inside toilet. So you know we didn't have automatic gas heat. So on Saturday when it rained we had to

work. So this particular day it was raining just a little drizzle and my father had my brother and I all and slat from they all saw me. You know Mew is a very strange and peculiar animal. And it's kind of smart too. So we went all over behind the wheel and loaded up the wagon and started on back toward the house. But got a little heel. And I didn't want to pull the wagon up here so I just started sliding our feet back and forth in the mud. So I did the only thing I thought was right when I started cussing me. So. Long about the time the old country preacher came along on his way to his next church like they do always on Saturday. And. So we kind of slipped up our

men caught me cussing them you. He said no that's not the way to get them you will wear them up here. He said You've got to be just. You've got to talk saw. So let me show you. So I got off the wagon and the revenue the. First thing Reverend there was a lot of on the side of the road get a mycelium with a knot in it. And broke it off and went around front of the wagon and hit the mule upside the head as hard as he could. Then he got up on the wagon and say get up in the. New pool all the way out and on up the hill. So he said well you see son you see what I told you you don't have to do all that Carson and Raven. You have to be gentle. I say yes unravel but there's just one thing I don't understand. Why did you hit the mule upside the head.

He said Well. First. I had to get his attention. Right now you city dwellers don't know nothing about that. But. Now that I have your attention. In an effort to somehow. Try to give some basis for understanding the problem that exists now particularly in the south. I want to. Answer a question. That is. Always been asked. Why I went to the University of Mississippi. Why not one of those nice northern schools like Boston University. Where you get nice treatment. The question always arose why you.

Why I mean. It was never a consideration in my mind. Why I mean the question always was why not me. I was born in Mississippi. I. Grew up there and I was no joke about the new. I learned a lot of the countryside Mississippi as I have no other. I spent my years in the forces of the United States of America. And I was conscious of why. I was in the armed forces of the United States. So I was they are to preserve and to protect. The ideals of democracy.

All my years I was very conscious of the fact. That I. Along with. The most if not all of my people did not in fact. Enjoy all of the rights and privileges. Of citizenship. Upon getting discharged from the armed forces. I felt just as great a responsibility. To fight to secure. The rights and privileges that I had given my own years to protect and to preserve as I did to protect and preserve it. Why me. I believe. In the idea.

Of America. Especially the idea that every citizen. Should be entitled. To the education no training and development. That is offered. By the various states. Negros including me grows in Mississippi. Should be no exception. That was another reason. That was even greater. Than I Was mention. And that was the question of fear. Fear has been mentioned once before tonight. Fear is one of the most dominant elements in the society of mankind. But fear. Is not in and of itself of great importance. It is what one feels.

That is significant. The thing that I fear above all others even above the possibility of death was that my son would grow up and 20 years later look around and find himself. Still a second class citizen. And asked himself the question. What did my father do all the year. Why am I still. A second class citizen. My greatest fear was. That he could answer. Nothing. That is why. I chose to go to the University of Mississippi.

And not. To one of those receptive northern schools. Now. The great question. Is what. Do we do now. First. I want to speak briefly. About what I. Hope to do. After graduating from the University of Mississippi. I stablished an Educational Fund. For the purpose of aiding underprivileged American youth. If we could get for all of the youths in the state of Mississippi.

The small amount of money that it took to bail this one Bill. We could seriously then. Prompt. Therefore. I have decided that I would spend. A good part of my time. Trying day. I'm a privileged American high school and college you. And supplementing. Their educational development. Now. The much bigger problem. What can you do. The most important thing of all that you can do. Is to understand the problem. And with that. I will say no more.

Until the questions start to come. And I thank you. And now the end of the program. It will be an enjoyable one. Thank you. I know that all of your as deeply moved as I was by the. Words of James Meredith. The simple words. Words that in our tradition. That's how much I was devoted my old siméon not leaving the class MLA words that leave the heart of the speaker

and the heart of the listener. And we wish James Meredith. Every success. In his efforts on behalf of his people. Who are our people because we are all Americans.