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Vietnam War report. Just 2 weeks ago, Miss Barbara Deming visited Hanoi. Tonight, she joins this program to answer questions from you, our audience. The phone number is 868-2500. Caroline Isber and Crocker Snow will also interview Miss Deming. Good evening, Crocker Snow speaking. Seated beside me here in the studios is Miss Barbara Deming of Wellfleet. But before proceeding with the questions I want to fill you in just a little bit on her background. Reading from a fact sheet, which she has kindly provided, I see the following. Miss Deming has been active in the nonviolent civil rights and peace movements since 1960. Was the only white person arrested while participating in the Birmingham, Alabama, civil rights demonstrations in 1963. Spent 23 days in jail in Albany, Georgia, in 1964, during integrated Quebec- Washington-Guantanamo Peace March. Went to Saigon, South Vietnam, in spring of '66 with five other members of Committee for Non-, Non-Violent Action. Has
just returned from North Vietnam with 3 other American women. Visited cities and villages, spoke with Vietnamese citizens, visited hospitals, talked with two captive American pilots, conference with Ho Chi Minh. Stopped in Chinese cities, going to and returning from, uh(?), North Vietnam. So that's it. And now for the questions. For those in the Boston area, I remind you to call 868-2500, for those in the Amherst area, listening to WFCR, call 545-0100. We've been taking questions since 6:30, and now, Caroline Isber, let's start off with one of these questions that we received earlier. Well Crowder we have quite a few questions already and one of the first ones is from Hugh Hawkins of Pelham, Mass. He wants to know whether Mrs. Deming has read Mr. Salisbury's articles and if she agrees with him, or is there any way she would want to change the impression he gives of North Vietnam. I've read most of them, uh, and of course agree with
most pieces because most what he said is just factual description of what he saw which in many cases is what we saw. The one, the one thing, that to me he doesn't stress enough, which to me I would stress again and again. When the government insists that we're bombing only steel and concrete, and then when civilians get hurt this is accident, uh, the thing that to me I would, that I would like to ask my government and that Salisbury doesn't ask, uh, enough is: If it's accident, why, why is the lazy dog bomb dropped again and again which is not dessigned for steel and concrete, but it's specifically designed for human flesh. And, uh, Salisbury just, to me, doesn't make enough of this. We have another question to follow up on this topic from Bernard Boyle of Northampton, Massachusetts. He asked, ah, whether you're sure that the bomb damage you saw in Hanoi
was done by United States planes and what evidence can you cite. Well, this, this, this question by the way, I'd like to make a lot of that because to me, uh, one of the things that's distressed me most in returning here. I was distressed to begin with to see what we are doing in North Vietnam and I'm distressed and frightened upon my return here to see the unwillingness of the American public to believe what is reported by eyewitness people who, who saw with their own eyes. To me it's just irrefutable that we're, we're doing this. And the American public seems to me very unwilling to believe it. Uh, well one evidence we saw was in most, in a lot of these places we visited they have actually museums now of the days and the bombing. And they'll have there, for instance, samples of
American weapons, that, bombs that were dropped, either bombs that didn't explode or the fragments of bombs that did. And you can look at those and there are the American markings on them. There are photographs of, of the damage done that day. There, well in the first place there are, as Salisbury's pointed out, you see craters there that couldn't possibly be, have been caused by the anti-aircraft missiles that the government is now claiming has caused the damage. And also he talked to people after people who were, who were hit that day or had family killed, and they'd become by now pretty expert at, at identifying, even by sound, the various kinds of aircraft and various weapons. And unless you suppose that there's a mammoth stage show put on for you here with, with innumerable peasants and workers, acting a part of grief-
stricken people, and carefully wounded for the occasion, reporting these days for you, then it's pretty clear to you that American planes are, are doing this. We also, actually one day were taken to see an American, in this case, pilotless plane that had just been shut down. Now conceivably they constructed this like Hollywood technicians, and [had] taken us out there and put the American markings on it, and out we were taken to see this elaborate show. But this to me is pretty fantastic. Now you mentioned earlier, you mentioned the lazy dog bombs, I wonder if you'd explain what these are. Yes, I, at one point, I understood that the government was saying these were not lazy bombs, lazy dog bombs, so perhaps they're the same weapon by another name and the name to me makes very little difference there. We saw and held in our hands actual examples of the lazy bomb. First it comes down in a long container and we saw these in some of these museums and each container contains apparently about 300 of these bombs
about the size of baseball, each one. Inside is explosive and with apparently timing devices and when the thing explodes, hundreds of little steel pellets like ball bearings, which are in the casing, now are exploded out and with terrific power and covering a great territory. They, uh, any human being standing anywhere near, is, uh, it's a fluke if he doesn't get some of these in him. And the power of it, in one place, one village we visited, where, uh, and were taken out to just a field near some very simple workers' houses where a lot of people have been killed including a lot of young children who'd been tending water buffalo. And there was a power pole, a metal power pole there, in which quite a number of these pellets were deeply embedded, which shows you the kind of a force they have. So this is sort of a glorified hand grenade really? Airborne hand grenade I take it.
Perhaps. Um uh. Alright, well let's get, let's get to a different subject now. Mrs. Karl Terzaghi of Winchester, phoned in and asked the following. She mentions that we all hear that those who left North Vietnam in 1954 were mostly Catholics who left because they feared religious persecution. And she wants to know if you, Miss Deming, saw any indication in Hanoi that these fears were justified. No, we saw none, quite the contrary. I'm glad this question was asked, because we made a point of asking to see the Catholic priest and we also met various Catholic laymen there, And, uh, one thing they told us about was exactly how this impression was given. They said after the Geneva Agreements there was a very conscious propaganda job done by the French and the Americans to persuade Catholics that they would be oppressed if they stayed. Even, the priest even showed us a picture of a little boy who was
persuaded to pretend to see a vision of the Virgin Mary who told him she was going south and all Catholics better follow her. But this priest and the various Catholic laymen we met all said that there was absolutely no oppression, that they had complete freedom of worship there. And, uh, by the way we also asked the priest directly what do you think of communism. And his reply went pretty much like this. He said the communists are not religious and don't believe in God and I, obviously, believe in God and am religious, but they grant us perfect freedom to worship as we wish. And, furthermore they are taking the lead in, in promoting the economy and the culture of this country and we admire them and cooperate with them. He made the point too that under the the French, when they were fighting with the French, the French often used churches to put gun positions in and when they retreated they destroyed the churches, and he said the
communists, after they had, had beaten the French, helped us rebuild the churches. He said we have absolutely no problems with them. He also made the point that American planes are now, have destroyed, 125 Catholic churches. This, this is surprising from, considering the fact, at least the alleged fact, that the Catholic population of South Vietnam is among the most rigid in the anti-communist stand. Although, uh, this is, no, so, because when we made the trip to Saigon last April, among, uh, for 5 days, before we attempted our protest, we spent seeing as many Vietnamese as we could. And these were all strictly non-communist. And among them were many Catholics, and those Catholics all took the position that if only the Americans would withdraw, the non-communist peace forces could easily have conversations with the NLF and set up a coalition government.
And none of these Catholics were at all afraid of the communists. They made the point, as did also the Buddhists with whom we talked, that the communists were patriots first and communists second. That's the way. And they said many other Catholics felt this way. I remind listeners at this point that you're listening to Miss Barbara Deming, one of 4 American women who just returned from Hanoi less than 2 weeks ago. And this is a live broadcast, we're taking phoned-in queries from both the Boston area and the Amherst area. If you're in the Boston area, call 868-2500. And if you're in the Amherst area call 545-0100. Now Caroline, do you have some further questions? Miss Deming, you just mentioned the issue of patriotism.We have a phone call here from Mrs. Ralph Robbins of Wayland, Massachusetts. She wants to know did you get any feeling as to how much communist China influences and supports North Vietnam. I would, I would say that I know there's always the great bogey of if, if Vietnam, if we don't win in Vietnam then the Chinese will just move on down that much farther. I think this is
absolutely ridiculous, because when the first things you notice in Vietnam is... Well the reason they're fighting the war, the reason they're not going to give up, which is something I'd like to stress, is that they're fighting a war for their independence from any foreign domination. French, Japanese they fought. Now the American. Years ago they fought off the Chinese at least three times I think. And, uh, whether, when the Chinese, Russian, they, uh, they want... what they're fighting for is for the right of Vietnamese to determine the destinies of Vietnam. Or more specifically did you see Chinese there, how many, what were they doing? [Isber and Deming dialogue intermixed here] I saw none, no. I know there's a Chinese embassy there, and I assume there are Chinese in it, but I saw no others. You didn't see Chinese technicians or equipment? No, this doesn't prove that they weren't there, but from all the talks I had the thing I felt most strongly in the Vietnamese was their wish to be independent even of their friends. And, uh, so I would be surprised if
there were many there, but I can't speak with authority about that of course. Mrs. Shin of Cambridge has two questions. One, the first one, is to what does the North Vietnam government attribute the failure of the country to negotiate a settlement? And the second is, what is the North Vietnamese view of what the United States must do to bring about a settlement? I think that's very simple. I think that to bring about a settlement, the United States must be willing to let the Vietnamese determine their own destiny and it's simple as that. Is this the North Vietnamese view? I would say it's the, yes, I would say it's the North Vietnamese and the South Vietnamese, except for the Key government which speaks for hardly any Vietnamese at all. And as person after person, when we visited Saigon, pointed out to us, couldn't, couldn't stand for an hour, if the Americans weren't backing it up. And her first question was to what does the North Vietnamese government attribute the failure of the country to negotiate a settlement? This is the government view.
Yes, well I would assume that they, though I didn't ask them this directly, that they attribute it to the unwillingness of the United States to let the Vietnamese run their own affairs. You spoke with Ho Chi Minh. Did he mention anything about this? Not directly in answer to that question but entirely related to it. One of the things he talked most about was how, not only he but every Vietnamese was going to fight and fight and fight this war, would never surrender, whatever terror was used against them, because it was a war for independence and as he said you know what it is to be slaves. And he made the point that, you know, they were suffering greatly from this war. Under the French, there were years when many, many of them died simply of starvation. Now Miss Deming I know in your factsheet here that you're a member of the Executive Committee of the New England and National Committee for Non-Violent Action, that you're a member of CORE
NAACP, the Women Strike for Peace, and Women's International League for Peace and Freedom So you're obviously an activist, and, uh, in, in certain areas. And this question is, relates to that. It's from Simon Fitch of Winthrop, and he asks whether your view of America, whether America looks different to you now, after your trip to North Vietnam. Well, it looks more so I guess. But, as I say the thing I'd stress again is the thing that, that frightens me about my country at this point is I think it's very unwilling to look at itself. It's very unwilling to face what it's doing in Vietnam. It's, it's unwilling to face what its role in the world is at this moment and, uh, this scares me. Because, for instance, about the war in Vietnam. And one reason I would stress the fact that the Vietnamese are not going to surrender, whatever terror we use against them. What frightens me is, uh, in this unwillingness of Americans to face this, that the only way we're going to
win that war, if we insist on winning it, and win would be a strange word to use here too, is by literally, exterminating them all. And I think it's absolutely necessary for the Americans to, to face this and to ask themselves: Is this what we want our government to do in our name? Commit genocide. I notice that you have used the word terror several times in relation to American actions in North Vietnam and I wonder what your attitude is concerning the various terrorist activities of the Viet Cong and in some cases I gather the North Vietnamese regular army in South Vietnam. Well, as a pacifist, my attitude about the use of terror by anybody in any place, is obviously that I'm against it, and I would hardly deny that the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese are using it. That's what war is. I do feel, it's always intrigued me that in the news broadcasts the word terror is used only for the Viet Cong and in spite of fact that the US has all
the napalm, all the heavy weapons, the word terror is never used on our side and that to me, that you can't deny that the preponderance of terror is on our side. Apropos of this, we just got a question from Charles Jones of Rowley and he asks whether you observed any atrocities by the Viet Cong in South Vietnam and your attitude. This, uh, we don't particularly care about your attitude because you just gave it, but whether you in fact observed any atrocities or saw the effects of this in South Vietnam as you apparently did in North Vietnam. Well, we didn't have the same opportunities, we were only in the city of Saigon. The of course there are acts of terror but the good con wouldn't want to go there wouldn't he. We didn't observe any at the time we think we were there for a week. I notice that you got many of your requests while you were in North Vietnam, that the North Vietnamese government carried them out and in fact took you to many of the places that you asked to visit now. What's your reaction to this?
You were talking earlier about a massive traumatic move on their part a red carpet treatment. And do you think, do you feel that this was in fact that? Well, to answer this in another way I know that you ask it nicely and other people have asked it in a kind of hostile way, they've said: Don't you feel you were used by the North Vietnamese? And my reply to that is always: Obviously it was useful to the North Vietnamese to have us observe what we did and come back and tell about it. But to me it's also profoundly useful for the American public to know these same facts. And another point I'd stress is that to me, you see, there is no conflict of interest really between the people of Vietnam and the people of the United States who are also suffering from this war. Uh, to me, this, waging this war is in the interest of very, very few of us in this country and by those few I'd, I'd mean the few against whom President Eisenhower warned us
before he retired. Um uh. Once more a quick reminder: if you have any questions, you the listening audience, for Miss Barbara Deming, you can call 868-2500 in the Boston area or 545-0100 in the Amherst area. Now Caroline, what about further questions that you have? We have a question here from Alden Fosse of Cambridge. He wants to know whether you see any evidence that North Vietnam is a threat to the security of this country. I see absolutely no evidence. And one of the reasons I took the trip I did, one reason was of course to see with my own eyes what my government was doing. The other was to say very clearly by my act that I refused to accept my government's judgment that these people are our enemies, 'cause I see no way in which they threaten us, no way in which they are trying to determine our lives in the United States. When you said by your act you mean that a passport refuses you the, uh... That, that's right. Passport does not give us permission to go there. And, but this I feel very strongly too. I think, in a democracy, to refuse
citizens the right to travel anywhere they want, particularly when they want to observe what their government is doing. Uh, if they do refuse this permission you can't any longer call it a government of, by, and for the people. How can you? I'd like you to give us a brief description of your trip in North Vietnam. Where were you taken? How long were you there? And where did you spend most of your time? Yes. We were there 11 days and the first place we visited, the four, there're 4 main quarters of Hanoi and all 4 have been bombed, and these are strictly civilian quarters, workers' houses mostly. We also visited the village of Phu Sah (?), which is not far from Hanoi. We made, uh, and which was, was bombed. Completely destroyed, in a sense been rebuilt. We made 2 longer trips which we were able to do on the 2 supposed truce days because they were, of course, very careful of our lives. And even
on these days, you get up, you travel by night. You get up at 3:30 in the morning and travel and then you stay there and then you come back at night. Those days we went to, for instance, Phu Ly and Nam Dinh. Phu Ly was a, was a village that used to have a population of 8000 now has a population of nobody because every building in it has been wrecked. Uh, then we made a trip to another larger place called the name for the moment escapes me, something like Bong Byinh, I'm bad at these names, and we not only, at these places we would do a variety of things, we'd look at the bomb damage, we'd talk to the people who've been hurt themselves, that day, and their families killed. We visit the hospitals. And, uh [unitelligible] This is a brief description. Here's another question, from Nora Joyce of Hamilton, Massachusetts. Why do you feel that we should not hold the line between North and South Vietnam? And if we held the line,
if it were violated, should we go ahead and bomb the North? I don't think we should be in Vietnam at all, and also speaking of the line between North and South, uh... Well, given the fact that they're there. I don't think we should hold any line there, so that's the only answer I can, I can give to that question. I don't think we should move across from the South into the North, and I think we should get out of the South. And, uh, that's only answer I can give. But as for the difference between North and South, this is one thing I'd like to talk about too. Because as the Geneva Agreements said, it's one country and the line was drawn as a temporary line strictly for military recruitment. It's one country and this was, this I knew from reading the Geneva Agreements and Vietnamese history before I went. But once you go there, it's clear in a very immediate and personal sense. For instance just the fact that almost anyone you meet in North Vietnam has family in the South from whom they're separated.
Another thing that brought it home to me was on some of these long trips, a woman pointed out to me a certain kind of palm tree growing and said this tree never used to grow at all in North Vietnam, now you see it everywhere. We've planted it to remind us of the South. Getting, getting back again to the first part of that answer, in how, how we resolve the situation. Benjamin Friedell of West Newton asks very simply: How should we end the war in Vietnam in your opinion? And I think there's a very simple answer. Just get out of there, because it's not our country. What kind of society they build is their business not ours, and we should as gracefully as possible withdraw. There I might quote what, what Ho Chi Minh said, which was he said: It's not our object to humiliate the Americans. That would be no victory, he said. But then he talked again of, of their determination to be independent. And he said if the Americans would leave, and let it be our country, we'd gladly give them a
banquet with champagne and we could be friends, he said. If they won't go to music, then we'll have to fight them. If the Americans would leave South Vietnam? All of Vietnam, yeah. Here, here's a question from Cambridge from Mrs. Grace Blitzer. Why did the North Vietnamese say, what do they say, is the reason that the United States is in the war? And, what does Mrs. Deming think is the reason and perhaps you could tell us who told you what? Yes, well then, we, we didn't... I don't remember our asking that question directly. It's, you could get a complicated answer. I think what sums it up is that they're in there to try and have some say in what kind of society is built there. Then you could talk of various reasons for wanting to have this say. Uh, obviously too, our relation to China is involved here and we want it as a military base against China. And of course to use one country, which should be sovereign, as a military base against another country
is to me entirely immoral. And to want to have a say in, in, about how a society in another country is built. Well this to me is entirely also unjustified on our part. That's why I would recommend what Ho Chi Minh recommends, and that is for the Americans to leave with music. Now John Ross of Brookline asks something that, which I think you'll find interesting and that's, uh, what you think, Miss Deming, is the most positive course of action for people that agree with you. Uh, there... I have my own particular bias, but I would, see to me, I'd, I'd repeat again that this war is waged by very few of us and we are, we are, uh, making it possible for them to wage it by giving them the tax money with which to pay for it and by sending our sons and brothers and friends to fight it and by turning out in the factories the weapons with which they fight it.
And my answer is: Refuse to do this any longer. Refuse to pay them the tax money, as long as it goes for this kind of thing. Refuse to fight in it. And if your women encourage the young men who are thinking of that but hesitant and back them in their stand and both refuse yourself to make the weapons and encourage others to refuse to make them. And the scientists, uh, uh, certainly, uh, refuse to invent these really damnable things. Are you personally for example refusing to pay your taxes? Yes I refuse to pay my tax. In other words you're, you're therefore favoring civil disobedience, so the kind that as much as breaks the statutes of our country? Yes, I'd recommend it with all my heart, and widespread as anyone who is against this war, I think, and feels that it's, that it's not in their interest - it's not their war - should make it not their war by refusing to help the government wage it. [Ensuing dialogue is mixed.] Because... You feel this is part of a democratic process? I think entirely... To, uh, say
this is what you don't agree with? I think entirely so. Well now... Especially when, especially when democracy is being flouted here, when you vote for a man because he says he's not going to escalate a war and he escalates it and Congress hasn't even declared that war, how can you vote against the war, except as Thoreau once put it, you know, with your lives? We just have about a minute left. But, uh, Dean Allen of Amherst, Massachusetts, wants to know whether you or any members of your delegation have spoken with American officials or a Congressional committee about your information that you gathered in Hanoi or observations that you saw, made, and if so what are their reactions to you? I haven't yet, and as far as I know, neither of the, none of the three other women have. Though I haven't talked to them recently, I would be very happy to do so. Will you comment on the statement of Dr. Spock in the January issue of Ramparts Magazine, that 1,000,000 children of Vietnam have been killed, wounded, or burned since the United States started
fighting in Vietnam? This is from Dr. Peveril Meigs of Wayland. Yes, I think this is a statement that should be read by every American. We have one more question here I, before we stop. Do you see anyone that those of us who feel sorry about the war - any way - can get in touch with each other since our views are so poorly represented by the press and administration? Mrs. Mahler, of Roxbury. Can you make it brief, please? Yes, I guess through any one of the peace, the peace groups that, that specially attracts you. All right, well, I'm sorry that we have to interrupt now, but you've been listening to Miss Barbara Deming who is 1 of 4 American women who has returned from Hanoi, from North Vietnam, from a conversation with Ho Chi Minh, just, really less than two weeks ago. And I want to say at this time for those of you who called in questions and didn't hear them on the air, we can only apologize. Perhaps your questions duplicated some that were already heard or perhaps it was the limitation of our air time. If you found this sort of show of interest please let
us know. Listen again next week at this same time for a Vietnam War report. This is the Eastern Educational Radio network.
Series
Vietnam War Report
Episode
Barbara Deming
Producing Organization
WGBH Educational Foundation
Contributing Organization
WGBH (Boston, Massachusetts)
AAPB ID
cpb-aacip/15-33rv1fsw
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Description
Series Description
Vietnam War Report is a weekly show featuring news reports and panel discussions about specific topics relating to the Vietnam War.
Created Date
1967-01-24
Genres
News
Topics
News
War and Conflict
Media type
Sound
Duration
00:30:02
Embed Code
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Credits
Interviewee: Deming, Barbara
Interviewer: Snow, Crocker
Producing Organization: WGBH Educational Foundation
Production Unit: Radio
AAPB Contributor Holdings
WGBH
Identifier: 67-0065-01-24-001 (WGBH Item ID)
Format: 1/4 inch audio tape
Generation: Master
Duration: 00:29:30
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Citations
Chicago: “Vietnam War Report; Barbara Deming,” 1967-01-24, WGBH, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed March 29, 2024, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-15-33rv1fsw.
MLA: “Vietnam War Report; Barbara Deming.” 1967-01-24. WGBH, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. March 29, 2024. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-15-33rv1fsw>.
APA: Vietnam War Report; Barbara Deming. Boston, MA: WGBH, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-15-33rv1fsw